The house with the reed door and the lemon tree

Yes, we know very little about how the red temple works or how slaves come and possibly leave the religion.

Maybe she didn't really leave the religion. Maybe she is on a mission for them. But I think about any assumption we want to make about the red priesthood is as valid as any other. We have two red priests that we really get a look at and the contrasts between them are dramatic. One or the other (or both) is not representative of the norm. The natural assumption is that Mel is the norm, partly because we knew her well before we really got to know Thoros, and partly because Thoros describes himself in fairly negative terms. But maybe it is typical for a red priest to admit to being flawed and imperfect, while a fanatic like Mel is unusual.

And Illyrio screams of lies, so who knows what he might be hiding.

I think our first good look at Illyrio was through Dany's eyes and she was suspicious of his motives. Dany's assessments are often wrong, but I think she was right in that one. Illyrio may be serving the right cause now (to the extent that one cause can be more good and right and pure), but his motives and his loyalties remain suspect. If he serves the red temple, I suspect that he expects to benefit by his service. But the red priests may value good service over devotional loyalty. Illyrio's gestures toward devotion to the Red God may be just that, and the priests may know that and be satisfied
It is also possible that the red priesthood is divided. Maybe something like Shia and Sunni Islam, or maybe like Catholic and Protestant Christianity, or like Baptist and Presbyterian, or maybe Mel is part of some fanatic order that is useful but a bit suspect.

The brothel in Molestown is definitely distinguished with a red lantern. It's mentioned several times. Samwell also notes a brothel in Braavos named the Cattery that has a doorway lit with a red lantern. Baelish's brothel in King's Landing is noted to have a leaded red glass lamp hanging by the door. Chataya's brothel is noted for red and yellow stained glass windows, but that might be a stretch in the red lantern department. The Molestown reference and Baelish's brothel come in Game of Thrones, so I think this was part of the world that GRRM was attempting to borrow from our real world.

OK. Somehow I missed all of that but it is what I was questioning. So yes, the red light signals a brothel. I still want a door that is actually red, but I'm much more open to the red lamp shining on the door theory with these data points in front of me.

I also wonder if somehow Dany's pregnancy actually helped incubate and hatch the dragons, as if they fed off of her own pregnancy. We know that in Rhaenyra's time there were several dragon hatchlings, both wild and tame.

I think it's hard to imagine that Dany's pregnancy was not somehow related. There is a significant history of putting dragon eggs in cribs and the like. There is Summerhall, where (I think the dominant) theory says a hatching attempt involved the birth of a child. And Dany's pregnancy and her attraction to the eggs seem to be linked. If we believe MMD, Dany's child had dragon-like features. And MMD says the child was a sacrifice, seemingly to heal Drogo, but maybe not just that

Well, had Aerys established this death by fire idea or was Rickard the first?

He had burned a family, I think before Rickard, but we don't know much about that

As to the idea of Reed being a bastard name, I have never heard that before.

It's not original with me, but I kinda liked it. The general idea is that bastard names reflect a major characteristic of the area. So in marsh country, "Reed" would be appropriate. Bastard names, I think, are based more on custom and tradition, so "Snow" might not make sense in the marshes.

So, this idea of Jyana might be false to, but it's what the general belief is. Still, why list her as "of the crannogmen". That is not something that GRRM points out about most of his character's in the appendices, although most of the time he does give women a maiden name for us to connect to. So, he could very well be hiding something with Jyana.

"Of the crannogmen" is odd for a couple reasons. One is that it does not give the usual information about parentage. But it is also strange because that description (I would think) would apply to most of people on the Reed family tree.

Heck, he doesn't even give us a name for Rickard Stark's wife and the mother of his children, children that were pretty important in the fall of the dragon kings. So, that seems like he is hiding something there, as well. We needed to wait until the World Book to get a name and relationship, and that seems odd, considering how developed GRRM is on the backstory of many of his characters, characters that seem less important than Lyarra Stark.

There is obviously a reason he is not giving us that information. It is also odd that he doesn't even give us her name, then he does. Maybe that tells us that whoever is responsible for those family trees didn't have that information for some reason.

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The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Feb 22, 2020 15:16:20 GMT danl likes this

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Post by stdaga on Feb 22, 2020 15:16:20 GMT

Maybe she didn't really leave the religion. Maybe she is on a mission for them. But I think about any assumption we want to make about the red priesthood is as valid as any other. We have two red priests that we really get a look at and the contrasts between them are dramatic. One or the other (or both) is not representative of the norm. The natural assumption is that Mel is the norm, partly because we knew her well before we really got to know Thoros, and partly because Thoros describes himself in fairly negative terms. But maybe it is typical for a red priest to admit to being flawed and imperfect, while a fanatic like Mel is unusual.

Sure. We met Thoros and he's a bit of a drunken joke in Game, even if he joins Beric's group to hunt down the Hound. Then we meet Melisandre, and she is burning statues of gods and burning people and singing songs while she does it. Pretty extreme differences between those two. And there is also Moqorro, who also doesn't seem bothered by the burning of humans, and seems to have a touch of prophecy reading about him. Thoros and Mel are not tattooed but Moqorro is heavily tattooed. None of them is very like the other's, except they wear red and have connections to the Red God and it's temples.

Red is a color associated with the Targaryen's, although Dany doesn't wear it much, at least that I remember. But she does have a some fire connections in her dreams and her life that cannot be denied. Perhaps all her links to connect her to a Red Temple! Perhaps that is exactly what she is supposed to remember about herself? And Quaithe of the Red Mask is supposed to help her remember.

I think our first good look at Illyrio was through Dany's eyes and she was suspicious of his motives. Dany's assessments are often wrong, but I think she was right in that one. Illyrio may be serving the right cause now (to the extent that one cause can be more good and right and pure), but his motives and his loyalties remain suspect. If he serves the red temple, I suspect that he expects to benefit by his service. But the red priests may value good service over devotional loyalty. Illyrio's gestures toward devotion to the Red God may be just that, and the priests may know that and be satisfied

It is also possible that the red priesthood is divided. Maybe something like Shia and Sunni Islam, or maybe like Catholic and Protestant Christianity, or like Baptist and Presbyterian, or maybe Mel is part of some fanatic order that is useful but a bit suspect.

I don't see Illyrio as connected to any one religion, but he could certainly be hiding it well. There are hints that his physical form might not be what we see. A hideously fat man who moves quite athletically and fucks with stamina, according to him. Mel seems to be all lovely young woman, but there are hints that she is much older than she appears. So, perhaps these idea's of them camouflaging their true appearance that connects them to being servants of the Red God.

OK. Somehow I missed all of that but it is what I was questioning. So yes, the red light signals a brothel. I still want a door that is actually red, but I'm much more open to the red lamp shining on the door theory with these data points in front of me.

I have also wondered how this red light might have started in-world, to symbolize red and brothel's and brothel's are a temple of a sort. Some of the slaves of the Red God are used as temple prostitutes, which is some thing that perhaps spawned the red color associated with brothel's in this world. I am just trying to connect some of these concepts to the same point of origin.

I think it's hard to imagine that Dany's pregnancy was not somehow related. There is a significant history of putting dragon eggs in cribs and the like. There is Summerhall, where (I think the dominant) theory says a hatching attempt involved the birth of a child. And Dany's pregnancy and her attraction to the eggs seem to be linked. If we believe MMD, Dany's child had dragon-like features. And MMD says the child was a sacrifice, seemingly to heal Drogo, but maybe not just that

The dragon egg in the cradle has always made me questiong what and why. The first we hear of that is with Rhaena placing an egg in her siblings Jaehaerys and Alysanne's cradles, and then Jaehaerys continued this tradition, but I always assumed it had to do with bonding, not with hatching. We are told that early in Targaryen rule there were multiple hatcheries on Dragonstone and multiple young dragons to chose from. Unless some of the idea's of all these hatched dragon eggs came from peasant's pregnant with Targaryen babies, possibly from the Lord's right to the first night. There does seem to be some connection to Dany's pregnancy and her eggs hatching, though, her case is a bit different because those eggs were said to have been turned to stone at some point. Maybe she had a harder task to hatch her dragons than other's might have because of this? I am not sure how that relates to what MMD said that Rhaego looked like, because I am not sure if that is true. Although we do hear of some deformed, scaled Targaryen babies in the past, and perhaps these mutations do have something to do with dragon eggs hatching. Several of Maegor's son's looked this way and there were plenty of dragons in Maegor's time, so many that people thought it odd he didn't chose a dragon hatchling from the many available on Dragonstone. Turns out he was waiting for Balerion to be free, but it does hint to us that plenty of eggs hatched.

I also have my pet theory about the "queen" dragons in our story, and how this might relate to Daenerys. Both Meleys and Tesserion were noted to be "queen" dragons, at least in their nicknames, and I think that queens could be important to the hatching of dragons, just like you need a queen in a bee colony. I also suspect that either Belarion or Vhagar was a "queen". I just need to tie how that works for Dany, as she is clearly not an actual dragon.

It's not original with me, but I kinda liked it. The general idea is that bastard names reflect a major characteristic of the area. So in marsh country, "Reed" would be appropriate. Bastard names, I think, are based more on custom and tradition, so "Snow" might not make sense in the marshes.

I do see what you are saying, so perhaps that could be how such names started. But most of the First Men names have these short, descriptive patterns about them. Perhaps that could be a sign that marriage did not mean much to the First Men, only blood.

"Of the crannogmen" is odd for a couple reasons. One is that it does not give the usual information about parentage. But it is also strange because that description (I would think) would apply to most of people on the Reed family tree.

I agree it's an odd detail that he tags to this Jyana. Why list anything at all? He doesn't have too. He could just list his children, which is the think he does with Rickard Stark. But perhaps the Reed's tend to marry outside of the Crannog's, with other northern families and so it was odd for Howland to marry one of his own? Just looking for reasons for this to be stand out. Most of our northern families seem to marry from other families that are neighbors, such as Karstark's marrying Umber's, or Bolton's marrying Ryswell's. Perhaps Howland should have married a Dustin, but married from within his own people for a reason? Perhaps it was to produce special little crannog-children and this is what is being highlighted when saying his wife is of his own people?

There is obviously a reason he is not giving us that information. It is also odd that he doesn't even give us her name, then he does. Maybe that tells us that whoever is responsible for those family trees didn't have that information for some reason.

I totally think GRRM was hiding something about the Stark past when he didn't mention even a name for Rickard's wife. But when looking back at SSM's, it's almost believable that he never even gave it a thought, as he claims. But with all the detail he puts into family tree's and world building, I don't believe that's lack of attention at all. It's a shield or screen to hide something. When the family tree's came out, we got the information that Rickard and Lyarra are cousins, and perhaps both raised at Winterfell. I feel like it's about combining Stark genes in an attempt to highlight something in their genetic makeup, even if Rickard and Lyarra didn't quite understand that, I think that is what GRRM is going for. And yes, I don't imagine that anyone but GRRM knows the whole truth, not even Elio, who thinks that he knows so much. GRRM has to be keeping some things close to his chest.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Feb 23, 2020 3:19:43 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by danl on Feb 23, 2020 3:19:43 GMT

Red is a color associated with the Targaryen's, although Dany doesn't wear it much, at least that I remember. But she does have a some fire connections in her dreams and her life that cannot be denied. Perhaps all her links to connect her to a Red Temple! Perhaps that is exactly what she is supposed to remember about herself? And Quaithe of the Red Mask is supposed to help her remember.

If it weren't for the fact that Thoros had the task of converting Aerys to the religion of the Red God, I would assume that was the religion of the Targs. Or maybe it was until Aegon adopted the faith of the Seven. Or maybe it was until Aerys, but gestures were made toward the Seven.
I wonder how the priests of the Red God feel about incestuous polygamy?

I don't see Illyrio as connected to any one religion, but he could certainly be hiding it well. There are hints that his physical form might not be what we see. A hideously fat man who moves quite athletically and fucks with stamina, according to him. Mel seems to be all lovely young woman, but there are hints that she is much older than she appears. So, perhaps these idea's of them camouflaging their true appearance that connects them to being servants of the Red God.

Yes, Illyrio definitely seems too light on his feet at times, whether his claims about his sexual capacity is true or not. And Mel's appearance is also questionable. Maybe there is a connection there.
And the Red religion may be somewhat flexible. Christianity takes some very different forms in different contexts, sometimes being barely recognizable from one set of practices to another, also having wildly varied ethical codes as well as rituals. Maybe we are seeing different versions of the same religion.

I have also wondered how this red light might have started in-world, to symbolize red and brothel's and brothel's are a temple of a sort. Some of the slaves of the Red God are used as temple prostitutes, which is some thing that perhaps spawned the red color associated with brothel's in this world. I am just trying to connect some of these concepts to the same point of origin.

I don't even have any idea how it started in our world.

There does seem to be some connection to Dany's pregnancy and her eggs hatching, though, her case is a bit different because those eggs were said to have been turned to stone at some point.

Whether they were stone or not (I think it was Illyrio who told Dany that they had turned to stone), dragons didn't seem to be hatching anymore for anyone. So it probably took something (or someone) special to make it happen

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The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Feb 23, 2020 16:49:55 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Feb 23, 2020 16:49:55 GMT

If it weren't for the fact that Thoros had the task of converting Aerys to the religion of the Red God, I would assume that was the religion of the Targs. Or maybe it was until Aegon adopted the faith of the Seven. Or maybe it was until Aerys, but gestures were made toward the Seven.
I wonder how the priests of the Red God feel about incestuous polygamy?

I think you might be on to something thinking that the religion of R'hller might have been something worshiped by previous generations of Targaryen's. Although I think that they might have converted before Aegon's time, just based on the statues of the seven at Dragonstone being carved from the masts of the ships the Targaryen's used to flee Valyria. So, perhaps at least it is the ancient religion of Valyria and it's people. Yet most of Valyria was destroyed around 400 years ago, but the red religion seems to be flourishing in Essos. Perhaps the destruction of Valyria prompted the Targaryen's to look toward the gods of their new homeland? Would they have been interested in the old gods, as well? There is something reminiscent of fire in the red canopy of the weirwoods.

As to incestuous polygamy, I would imagine that R'hller would not mind. If it's the religion of the Valyrian's, this would be a practice that seems to have gone on for a long time. Besides, a god that allows the burning of people as sacrifice shouldn't be too picky about who people decide to procreate with.

And the Red religion may be somewhat flexible. Christianity takes some very different forms in different contexts, sometimes being barely recognizable from one set of practices to another, also having wildly varied ethical codes as well as rituals. Maybe we are seeing different versions of the same religion.

Yes, this is possible. That makes sense in real world thinking. We might find that every temple in every city is run just a little bit different than other temples, making for quite a diverse group of followers and practices.

I don't even have any idea how it started in our world.

Actually, I really don't know either. But it reminds me of a neighbor I had years ago who liked to change her entry door lights at Christmas and she put a green bulb in one and a red light in another. And her landlord came over and told her she had to take the red light out because it would remind people driving by of a house of prostitution. Haha! We laughed about that for years!

Anyway, I thought I would look at the concept of the red light for a brothel and there is a theory that it relates back to the early railroad men in the west who had to leave their red lanterns on display when they were in a building, so people could find them in times of need. I even went to Snopes, who didn't prove or disprove the idea. It might just be a wild story used for an explanation. It actually surprised me that it would have a possible American source since I strongly associate Amsterdam and it's brothel district with red lights. Also Bangkok and it's red light district. I would have guessed there is a more European or eastern source.

Whether they were stone or not (I think it was Illyrio who told Dany that they had turned to stone), dragons didn't seem to be hatching anymore for anyone. So it probably took something (or someone) special to make it happen

Yes, this is true. I wonder how rare dragon eggs have become in this world. If there are no dragons left to lay eggs, then there would be a limited supply of eggs to hatch. And Dany does feel like they could be made of stone when she first feels them, but Illyrio does tell her they have turned to stone over the "eons". Which implies they are old. I do wonder if all dragon eggs are quite stone-like in appearance, which also reminds me of the skin of the stone men and grey scale, as well. It's like a protective coat of some sort, a scaled protection.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Feb 23, 2020 20:32:18 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by danl on Feb 23, 2020 20:32:18 GMT

I think you might be on to something thinking that the religion of R'hller might have been something worshiped by previous generations of Targaryen's. Although I think that they might have converted before Aegon's time, just based on the statues of the seven at Dragonstone being carved from the masts of the ships the Targaryen's used to flee Valyria. So, perhaps at least it is the ancient religion of Valyria and it's people. Yet most of Valyria was destroyed around 400 years ago, but the red religion seems to be flourishing in Essos. Perhaps the destruction of Valyria prompted the Targaryen's to look toward the gods of their new homeland?

Particularly in ancient times, gods proved their power by the success (or failure) of their worshipers. The total annihilation of your city might well be reason to look for some different gods. If Rh'llor was the protector of Valyria, he failed miserably

Would they have been interested in the old gods, as well? There is something reminiscent of fire in the red canopy of the weirwoods.

I think we see some hints of either a unity religion, or of people who draw a bit from here and a bit from there, or maybe of some shared practices and powers. The linkage between the gods of ice and the gods of fire are particularly interesting.

Besides, a god that allows the burning of people as sacrifice shouldn't be too picky about who people decide to procreate with.

taboos can be very strange and it wouldn't surprise me that a religion that sanctions terrible cruelty might have some very strong taboos around reproduction. A few centuries ago in New England, there were Congregationalists who valued education, burned witches, and had some rigid rules concerning sexual expression. Now the burning of witches was extremely rare but it did happen and without rejection of the Christian religious system; in fact, those who were burning witches believed it was sanctioned, or even required, by their religion

I do wonder if all dragon eggs are quite stone-like in appearance, which also reminds me of the skin of the stone men and grey scale, as well. It's like a protective coat of some sort, a scaled protection.

I have often wondered whether those stone-like eggs were typical dragon eggs. Illyrio may have been unaware of that fact, but (if it is the case), I suspect that he knew

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The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Feb 24, 2020 16:16:59 GMT danl likes this

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Post by stdaga on Feb 24, 2020 16:16:59 GMT

Particularly in ancient times, gods proved their power by the success (or failure) of their worshipers. The total annihilation of your city might well be reason to look for some different gods. If Rh'llor was the protector of Valyria, he failed miserably

Your first line reminds me of Neil Gaiman's "American Gods" concept, which I probably need to put on my "to read" list. And yes, I would agree that if R'hller was meant to protect Valyria, then it would be considered a fail. Unless it was a huge sacrifice of blood and fire! But for what purpose?

I think we see some hints of either a unity religion, or of people who draw a bit from here and a bit from there, or maybe of some shared practices and powers. The linkage between the gods of ice and the gods of fire are particularly interesting.

I have speculated that the dream stream in this world comes from the same place, although that might turn out to be quite incorrect, but what about the hints of gods and the depictions of religions in this world? GRRM is pretty much leaving it up to the readers to decide if the gods are real or not in this world, but certainly, real or not, there are some connections between the extremes of religion that we see. The idea of blood sacrifice is one thing that ties several of the forms of worship, namely the old gods and the Red God. The Many Faced God has death at a forefront, but not as a direct sacrifice, or so it seems. And then the Faith of the Seven don't seem to have much of a death vibe about it, except there is the aspect of the Stranger, which reminds me quite a bit of the Other's, blank faced and star-like eyes. Which seem to be real and might be worshiped as gods! It's certainly a complex concept he is placing in his story.

taboos can be very strange and it wouldn't surprise me that a religion that sanctions terrible cruelty might have some very strong taboos around reproduction.

If this is so, then do you think if incest was being practiced by the majority of Valyrian's, that would be a reason for R'hller to destroy, or at least allow the destruction, of a whole nation? Still, I am more inclined to think a god would not care how it's worshiper's were created, as long as they were created and then worshiped. Unless the god was threatened by it's people, by something in the method of procreation.

A few centuries ago in New England, there were Congregationalists who valued education, burned witches, and had some rigid rules concerning sexual expression. Now the burning of witches was extremely rare but it did happen and without rejection of the Christian religious system; in fact, those who were burning witches believed it was sanctioned, or even required, by their religion

There is certainly extremes in that religious setting and actions, but I don't think any of those witches were being burned at the stake for procreating with their siblings or parents. Although this does remind me a bit of Ann Rice's "Mayfair Witches" series. Of course, Ann Rice isn't afraid to throw a bit of kink into her stories!

I have often wondered whether those stone-like eggs were typical dragon eggs. Illyrio may have been unaware of that fact, but (if it is the case), I suspect that he knew

Illyrio's motives are certainly suspect, and it's hard to say what is truth with him and what is manipulation. But as to the dragon eggs of Dany's, one thing that stands out about them to me is that other's held them and felt them and thought they were nothing but stone, cold objects. But when Dany's feels them, they are warm, she feel's movement in them, and this is nearly from the start. It has nothing to do with her putting them on coals to heat or incubate them (which she might have been doing) but something else, something internal. But is that internally in the eggs, or in her? That brings me back to the idea that it takes special blood to hatch a dragon egg. A special person or dragon. Perhaps a special dragon to lay those eggs and a special human to hatch them? A bee becomes a Queen because it is fed special, nutritious jelly that causes it to develop into a queen. For some reason, one larva is special and singled out to become something more. Is that what happened to Dany? Our mhysa, our mother of dragons! Although in a hive, a queen's true function is to mate and produce eggs, something that Dany has so far failed to do. Yet still, there is something about her that caused three eggs to hatch in a world were dragons haven't been born for a hundred years. My question is, did Illyrio know this when he gave her the eggs, or was it a fluke from his perspective. He didn't give those egg's to Viserys, which would have been a decent gift. And even if we assume that everything that Dany owns belongs to Drogo, Drogo never seemed to show any interest in those dragon eggs. Only Dany.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

canitryto Davos Seaworth i like to exercise and follow the sports page and defend Doran and Rhaegar and Tywin Posts: 359 canitryto inherit 445 0 Sept 18, 2023 16:12:02 GMT 166 canitryto i like to exercise and follow the sports page and defend Doran and Rhaegar and Tywin 359 Davos Seaworth Sept 9, 2018 1:41:00 GMT September 2018 canitryto	The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Feb 24, 2020 18:35:15 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by canitryto on Feb 24, 2020 18:35:15 GMT Wraith, great minds think alike and i read mark's comments and he said something similar a few years ago too LOL

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The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Feb 25, 2020 1:54:16 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by danl on Feb 25, 2020 1:54:16 GMT

Your first line reminds me of Neil Gaiman's "American Gods" concept, which I probably need to put on my "to read" list.

I loved 'Good Omens' but I haven't read anything else he has written. It's all on my list, though

And yes, I would agree that if R'hller was meant to protect Valyria, then it would be considered a fail. Unless it was a huge sacrifice of blood and fire! But for what purpose?

If it was a huge sacrifice, I think it wasn't by the Valyrians and likely not by followers of the R'hller

The idea of blood sacrifice is one thing that ties several of the forms of worship, namely the old gods and the Red God.

There is definitely some blood sacrifice going on with MMD. I'm not sure about her, but with the old gods, I have the impression that the actual blood matters. Something happens when the weirwood is exposed to the blood. With burning, no blood sinks into the ground, or anywhere

And then the Faith of the Seven don't seem to have much of a death vibe about it, except there is the aspect of the Stranger, which reminds me quite a bit of the Other's, blank faced and star-like eyes. Which seem to be real and might be worshiped as gods! It's certainly a complex concept he is placing in his story.

The Seven seem to encompass the major aspects of life. All of the darkness and mystery and negativity seems to get thrown into the Stranger. But it's hard to imagine an religion that doesn't have a place for death. Death may be worshiped or may be the enemy, but it must be acknowledges as powerful.

If this is so, then do you think if incest was being practiced by the majority of Valyrian's, that would be a reason for R'hller to destroy, or at least allow the destruction, of a whole nation? Still, I am more inclined to think a god would not care how it's worshiper's were created, as long as they were created and then worshiped. Unless the god was threatened by it's people, by something in the method of procreation.

Well, I don't think most of the rules come from R'hller. I think they come from customs and from priests. R'hller probably doesn't care, but if in-breeding in-world has the same effects as in our world, it is likely that there would be incest taboos in most cultures. Those taboos may have exceptions (as in the Egyptian royal family) but the larger taboo still exists.

Illyrio's motives are certainly suspect, and it's hard to say what is truth with him and what is manipulation. But as to the dragon eggs of Dany's, one thing that stands out about them to me is that other's held them and felt them and thought they were nothing but stone, cold objects. But when Dany's feels them, they are warm, she feel's movement in them, and this is nearly from the start.

Yes, there was a very early tie between Dany and the eggs and she sensed something that no one else did. And she knew what to do either by instinct, by guesswork, by some lost memory, or by magic. Maybe the dragons were letting her know what they needed

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The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Feb 25, 2020 17:12:08 GMT danl likes this

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Post by stdaga on Feb 25, 2020 17:12:08 GMT

I loved 'Good Omens' but I haven't read anything else he has written. It's all on my list, though

He has quite a prolific list of stories. I had no idea how much he has written over the years. I have a couple of his books that I want to read, Stardust (I love that movie) and Neverwhere are on my shelf. My reading list seems to be growing these days faster than I can keep up, but I guess that's a good problem to have.

If it was a huge sacrifice, I think it wasn't by the Valyrians and likely not by followers of the R'hller

Yes, that does make sense on some level and could link back to Braavos and the Many Faced God as being responsible for the Doom. But if you ask the House of Black and White to destroy a nation, what kind of price do you have to pay?

There is definitely some blood sacrifice going on with MMD. I'm not sure about her, but with the old gods, I have the impression that the actual blood matters. Something happens when the weirwood is exposed to the blood. With burning, no blood sinks into the ground, or anywhere

I guess my mental concept of blood sacrifice includes blood into the earth or blood into the water, but also blood turned to ash and reaching the heavens, so in a way, blood can go into the air as well. I do think that the genetic line of blood might matter, and that is based on my thoughts on the offspring of Garth Greenhand being important.

As to MMD, I am not completely sure I understand what religion she worships. Is it the the Great Shepard of the Lhazareen, or is it something else. She is said to be a maegi, a practitioner of blood magic, but she is also linked to Marwyn, who is scathingly called a Maege by his counterparts at the Citadel. But does Marwyn practice blood sacrifice? So far, the most we see of this is in the story are from the practitioners of the Red God and perhaps the Iron Born and their sacrifice to the drowned god. There are hints of this being an old practice of the Old God's, but any current practice seems to be accidental, based on Ned cleaning Ice under the Winterfell heart tree. The House of Black and White seems to offer life as a sacrifice, but it doesn't seem necessarily tied to blood the blood, at least to me.

The Seven seem to encompass the major aspects of life. All of the darkness and mystery and negativity seems to get thrown into the Stranger. But it's hard to imagine an religion that doesn't have a place for death. Death may be worshiped or may be the enemy, but it must be acknowledges as powerful.

And it's a fate that everyone must face some day.

Well, I don't think most of the rules come from R'hller. I think they come from customs and from priests. R'hller probably doesn't care, but if in-breeding in-world has the same effects as in our world, it is likely that there would be incest taboos in most cultures. Those taboos may have exceptions (as in the Egyptian royal family) but the larger taboo still exists.

It's hard to know what was going on in Valyria before the doom. Was sibling marriage normal or atypical? Was polygamy normal or atypical? As to incest, constant sibling marriages would highlight error's in the genetic code, but it could also expose something special. And that is what I take away from the gist of sibling marriage in Valyria. Even if it's just cousin marriage, it lessons the risks but could also expose new, inferior genes. I tend to think that the purer the genetic code is, the more hightened your gift might be, whether that's dragons or being a skin-changer. Except that seems to anti-GRRM's concepts on equality that it's hard to imagine that he would support such a concept. Still, incest does seem to be linked to the gods, and that might be what he is toying with. Some people setting themselves above others, based on their concept of blood and genes.

As to Egyptions, we associate sibling marriage with the pharaoh's, but I question if it was more wide spread than that, because people wish to emulate their betters. The Egyption religion certainly covers the idea of sibling marriage, from Isis and Osiris as well as Set and Nephthys, all siblings to each other. We hear about it in the bible, and how it's forbidden. But if you need to forbid something, that makes me think it was more well spread than the world knows. But we lose so much of history, or we only have history on the elite, that we really don't know what life was like for common, everyday people. Same for the quran, with hints of the intended wives of Cain and Abel. Incest was expected but then there is an idea that Allah sent two angels to be spouses for the brothers so they would not defile their sisters. When something pops up several times, it makes me think that the practice might have been more widespread than we think, and these teachings are ways to dissuade people from the practice.

How that might apply to Valyria, I don't know. But we are given the idea that the Targaryen's, after they left Valyria, used sibling marriage quite a bit. Did they do that because they always had, or because the pool for the genes they needed was suddenly reduced and they felt they had little choice if they wanted to keep the dragon genes strong. We know they also intermarried with the Velaryon's, who also had the ability to be dragonriders, but not the Celtigar's, another family with Valyrian links. I also toy with the Bar Emmon family, because it reminds me of Bar-atheon. Even though the Bar Emmon's are said to be of Andal stock, I think we might find a bastard Valyrian link in the family tree, and if that is so, then this would be another Valyrian house that the Targaryen's did not procreate with.

Yes, there was a very early tie between Dany and the eggs and she sensed something that no one else did. And she knew what to do either by instinct, by guesswork, by some lost memory, or by magic. Maybe the dragons were letting her know what they needed

It's possible the dragons were communicating with her in some way. She has dreams of a great black dragon slick with blood, and that might be Drogon speaking to her from the egg. There is also the idea that Dany had dreams that helped her know what to do, but what is the source of those dreams? Maybe it was always Drogon speaking to her, wanting to be born and knowing she was the key he needed?

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

danl
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The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Feb 25, 2020 21:42:31 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by danl on Feb 25, 2020 21:42:31 GMT

And it's a fate that everyone must face some day.

A religion that lacks an element of death is missing something central to everyone's life. Many religions have a sense of after-life, that the god will take care of us after we die. But there are other perspectives, such as the perspective that death is part of the surrender that is required of us all, which includes much of Buddhism and certainly Stoicism. Either way, death must be reckoned with by a religious or philosophical system.
But I'm still not sure what the perspective is on death. All men must die is the way things are and the way things should be. Death is 'the Gift' which tells us that death is positive. But that does not mean that early death is better. And we don't know what it's implications are for mass death, or the death of a nation, or the death of humanity. Perhaps it is good that I will one day die because I will make way for more flourishing forms. The HoBaW celebration of death may be an aspect of a wider celebration of life (which death is an important part of). Or that celebration of death may be a rejection of the value of life in some sense. We are told a lot, but there are huge gaps

I tend to think that the purer the genetic code is, the more hightened your gift might be, whether that's dragons or being a skin-changer.

I think there is definitely some basis the accept that. And it may not be incompatible with GRRM's worldview. If I am carefully bred for a particular trait, my breeding probably makes me less suitable for other things. Maybe we can breed for intelligence, or dragon-riding, or skin changing, but those abilities may not be correlated with good leadership. Could we breed for all of the abilities we want in a strong leader? Maybe, but usually such breeding is more focused. So Dany (or Vis) may be bred to be a dragon-rider, but that doesn't give her a right to rule nor does it make her a good ruler (although it may give her power to rule).

When something pops up several times, it makes me think that the practice might have been more widespread than we think, and these teachings are ways to dissuade people from the practice.

The sex drive is very powerful and siblings are near. So, without taboos in place, incest may be very frequent.

How that might apply to Valyria, I don't know. But we are given the idea that the Targaryen's, after they left Valyria, used sibling marriage quite a bit. Did they do that because they always had, or because the pool for the genes they needed was suddenly reduced and they felt they had little choice if they wanted to keep the dragon genes strong.

In Dune, there were multiple breeding programs, each seeking different characteristics and abilities. Maybe Valyria was similar, with breeding for dragon-riding, and maybe other magical abilities, but maybe also for physical characteristics, like strength, endurance, desirable sexual characteristics, and so on.

There is also the idea that Dany had dreams that helped her know what to do, but what is the source of those dreams? Maybe it was always Drogon speaking to her, wanting to be born and knowing she was the key he needed?

It has occurred to me that it might have been Drogon or the dragons in concert. Or maybe it was always Quaithe.

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The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Feb 26, 2020 23:51:53 GMT danl likes this

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Post by stdaga on Feb 26, 2020 23:51:53 GMT

But I'm still not sure what the perspective is on death. All men must die is the way things are and the way things should be. Death is 'the Gift' which tells us that death is positive. But that does not mean that early death is better. And we don't know what it's implications are for mass death, or the death of a nation, or the death of humanity. Perhaps it is good that I will one day die because I will make way for more flourishing forms. The HoBaW celebration of death may be an aspect of a wider celebration of life (which death is an important part of). Or that celebration of death may be a rejection of the value of life in some sense. We are told a lot, but there are huge gaps

I agree there are huge gaps, probably especially with the Many Faced God and the old gods. As far as mass death possibly in Valyria, I wonder if this could relate to what happened at Hardhome, also? As to the HoB&W referring to death as "the gift", I do wonder about that. Some gifts are not worth receiving but can still be called a gift. It's all about perspective.

I think there is definitely some basis the accept that. And it may not be incompatible with GRRM's worldview. If I am carefully bred for a particular trait, my breeding probably makes me less suitable for other things. Maybe we can breed for intelligence, or dragon-riding, or skin changing, but those abilities may not be correlated with good leadership. Could we breed for all of the abilities we want in a strong leader? Maybe, but usually such breeding is more focused. So Dany (or Vis) may be bred to be a dragon-rider, but that doesn't give her a right to rule nor does it make her a good ruler (although it may give her power to rule).

The bolded sounds just like Aegon and his sister's, dragon-riders and warriors who felt like they needed to or had the right to control the entire population of a continent. And if they were seen in almost a god-like way by their family members in subsequent generations, those same later generations might have been trying to reestablish the same type of dragon power structure. Perhaps that is why Rhaegar almost seems like he is trying to rebuild a threesome of rulers, his own Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys. I do think the idea of the dragon has three heads is older and might mean something different, but Rhaegar might have interpreted it to mean three of his own children, destined to bring back dragons to this world and to put Westeros back under the power of the dragon kings once again.

The sex drive is very powerful and siblings are near. So, without taboos in place, incest may be very frequent.

It's kind of a weird thing to think about, and also would be in complete disagreement with the Westermark affect. But is suppose the sociology of people changes over the millennia, and what seems alien or taboo to us now, might not have been in a different time. Hence the reason it's still associated with stories of the gods, great people who lived in the past.

In Dune, there were multiple breeding programs, each seeking different characteristics and abilities. Maybe Valyria was similar, with breeding for dragon-riding, and maybe other magical abilities, but maybe also for physical characteristics, like strength, endurance, desirable sexual characteristics, and so on.

Dune is on my reading list also. This idea of separate goals in breeding is quite interesting, and maybe does hint at what could have been going on in Valyria. And might hint at why the Targaryen's will reproduce with some families, like the Velaryion's (of Valyrian blood) or Martell's, but not other families, such as the Celtigar's (of Valyrian blood) or the Stark's.

It has occurred to me that it might have been Drogon or the dragons in concert. Or maybe it was always Quaithe.

I am honestly conflicted and confused by Quaithe's role and her intent. She is certainly a character that I would like some answers about someday. I have wondered recently if Dany could send dreams to herself, such as I think Bran is doing to himself at times. A future Dany sending messages to the present (or past), and she has to wear the mask to disguise from herself that it is actually her own self that is talking to her. I would be more on board with this idea except we actually see Quaithe as a physical being when Dany is in Qarth.

Last Edit: Feb 26, 2020 23:52:26 GMT by stdaga: spelling ... yikes!

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Feb 27, 2020 16:39:34 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by danl on Feb 27, 2020 16:39:34 GMT

Some gifts are not worth receiving but can still be called a gift. It's all about perspective.

I suspect that most people who receive the Gift from the Faceless don't want it. But it started with slaves who welcomed death being given it. And it seems connected with giving someone 'mercy.' So there is some idea that it is desirable at some level, although if it is still believed that they are giving something positive, it is a rather bizarre justification for assassination

Perhaps that is why Rhaegar almost seems like he is trying to rebuild a threesome of rulers, his own Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys. I do think the idea of the dragon has three heads is older and might mean something different, but Rhaegar might have interpreted it to mean three of his own children, destined to bring back dragons to this world and to put Westeros back under the power of the dragon kings once again.

I am not convinced that Rhaegar in Dany's vision is actually Rhaegar. Someone may be putting words in his mouth that he would not have spoken. Of course, if someone is putting the idea in Dany's head that she needs two other rulers (putting aside the question of who it is), then who would that person have in mind for the other two rulers? Fans speculate about our favorite two possibilities, but it seems unlikely that someone who is manipulating Dany is pushing Jon and Tyrion (or our other favorites). More likely they are pushing Aegon and Quentin, although I haven't thought that through at all and even the beginnings of the idea activates something in my head that says, "No"

It's kind of a weird thing to think about, and also would be in complete disagreement with the Westermark affect. But is suppose the sociology of people changes over the millennia, and what seems alien or taboo to us now, might not have been in a different time. Hence the reason it's still associated with stories of the gods, great people who lived in the past.

I had to look up the Westermarck effect but it actually fits with my experience with sex offenders. And yes, it does undermine my idea about the incest taboo but maybe not completely.
But I think the stories about incestuous gods may be a justification for kings having different rules. The practical effect is wanting to keep the power or wealth in a very limited line. In some cultures, cousin marriage is practiced for he same reason. I have seen theories that taboos against cousin marriage have the purpose of making the tribal structures they promote less likely.

Dune is on my reading list also. This idea of separate goals in breeding is quite interesting, and maybe does hint at what could have been going on in Valyria. And might hint at why the Targaryen's will reproduce with some families, like the Velaryion's (of Valyrian blood) or Martell's, but not other families, such as the Celtigar's (of Valyrian blood) or the Stark's.

Maybe those families have some characteristic that the Targs want in their line. The thing that makes any breeding program difficult is that a limited gene pool will concentrate the undesirable characteristics. So if the Martell's share a desirable trait with the Targs but lack some undesirable trait, they may be ideal breeding partners

I would be more on board with this idea except we actually see Quaithe as a physical being when Dany is in Qarth.

There is something odd about Quaithe's appearances. I went to asearchoficeandfire.com to see if anyone besides Dany and the Warlocks were confirmed to actually see her. It seems clear that Jorah did and when she is with the warlock delegation, it would have seemed like a very odd conversation if she wasn't present to anyone there. So yes, I think she is physically present. Dany feels a strange sensation when Quaithe touches her which has implications but not enough data points for me to speculate

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The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Feb 28, 2020 17:16:29 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Feb 28, 2020 17:16:29 GMT

I suspect that most people who receive the Gift from the Faceless don't want it. But it started with slaves who welcomed death being given it. And it seems connected with giving someone 'mercy.' So there is some idea that it is desirable at some level, although if it is still believed that they are giving something positive, it is a rather bizarre justification for assassination

Agreed. Sometimes I question the back story of the Many Faced God. For some people, death would be a gift, but for many other's it would not be.

It's interesting to me that the Faceless Men associate their god with the Black Goat of Qohor, who is associated with a daily blood sacrifice, mostly animals but sometimes humans. Does that hint that the Faceless Men feel that blood needs to be shed daily in their own religion, to honor their god?

They also associate their god with the Stranger, but I don't think of the Stranger as actively requiring some one's death, but perhaps I am looking into the Faith of the Seven incorrectly.

And the Many Faced God is also associated with the Lion Made of Night, who is associated with Darkness, but also had a child with the Maiden Made of Light, that became the God Emperor on Earth, associated with the Great Empire of the Dawn. Now this myth has never really reminded me of a death cult at all, but I am sure there is a lot we don't know about it. It seems to me that the Lion of Night represents a dark void, cold, death, I suppose, while the Maiden Made of Light represents a bright light expanse, warmth, life, and strangely death and life combined to make a god for mankind. But I still am confused by how the lion of night is worshiped by using death.

I am not convinced that Rhaegar in Dany's vision is actually Rhaegar. Someone may be putting words in his mouth that he would not have spoken. Of course, if someone is putting the idea in Dany's head that she needs two other rulers (putting aside the question of who it is), then who would that person have in mind for the other two rulers? Fans speculate about our favorite two possibilities, but it seems unlikely that someone who is manipulating Dany is pushing Jon and Tyrion (or our other favorites). More likely they are pushing Aegon and Quentin, although I haven't thought that through at all and even the beginnings of the idea activates something in my head that says, "No"

Your comment has me thinking of my own preconceived notions. I have always taken that part of Dany's dream as something that has happened in the past, a part of the past that she is witnessing. But we are told from the start that in her dreams she might see things from days gone by, days to come, and days that never were. So what Dany seen, which we interpret as Rhaegar and Elia and Aegon, might not be something from days gone by. It could be days to come (hard to imagine), but more likely from days that never were, since GRRM has confirmed that is Elia in the vision. So she, and we, could be being mislead that this scene happened, that Rhaegar felt his son was the PtwP and expressed that he needs one more because the dragon has three heads. That this scene could have come to pass, but never actually did. Although I still like the idea better that this did happen and Dany is seeing a glimpse of the past.

I have never considered that the vision could be manipulated, or the words in the vision could be manipulated. If that is the case, then no dream or vision could be trusted, even the ones that Bran see's from the weirnet.

But I think the stories about incestuous gods may be a justification for kings having different rules. The practical effect is wanting to keep the power or wealth in a very limited line. In some cultures, cousin marriage is practiced for he same reason. I have seen theories that taboos against cousin marriage have the purpose of making the tribal structures they promote less likely.

My internet search history is crazy for certain, but I was looking into the Westermark Affect and the Incest Taboo the other night and found some interesting articles, most that are cited through wikipedia, that deal with how the Roman empire dealt with what seemed like more than a little bit of incest in the Egyption empire. The first thing I took away from it is an association of the Persian's and the Egyptians, and the premise that the Egyptian practiced incest as a way of copying the ancient Persian empire. Then the articles discuss how common incest was in the Egyptian empire, not just with the royal family, but with the general population. These articles looked at census records and the results show that 20-40% of the general population at one point in the Ptolemic dynasty showed half or full sibling marriage. The discussion ranged over is this accurate and debate the idea that these sibling couples were one bio child and one adopted child, even though they are listed as full siblings to the same parents. The other idea was that the citizen's were trying to emulate the ruling family in their practices. Without DNA, I don't know how a person could ever solve the adoption vs birth sibling question. Or even the debate that once a person marries and lives within a household, they could be considered a child of the elder couple in the home.

These articles also talked about how if there were birth defects from such incestuous marriages, that many of the children who bore the poor genes or diseases would die young or not be able to reproduce, while the stronger genes would win out after a couple of generations. This does strike me as what House Targaryen might have been doing. And those babies that are born looking half dragon scaled, are a product of a gene that is meant to not survive, but that perhaps has also been a product of such marriages for thousands of years in Valyria.

Another interesting thing about those Roman records is that this is looking at the Ptolemaic dynasty, a family of Greek Macedonians', who didn't practice incest early in their family reign, but by the third generation in, were showing full-sibling marriages with children from these marriages. Also there were half-siblings in the mix as well, but also marriage to full siblings. The debate is why did the Ptolemy's start this practice, when it was certainly not supported by their Greek background? Were they trying to emulate the gods of the population they were trying to rule? Or were they trying to show a population that practiced such consanguineous breeding, that they were worthy to serve as rulers? I find that debate interesting. And also hard to solve.

Another interesting thing in those articles was the question of why the Roman's didn't put an immediate stop to such a practice when they enveloped Egypt into the Roman Empire? Roman's didn't practice such incest on a grand scale and seem to find the practice abhorrent. Why not stop it? Just like they set out to eradicate such practices as human sacrifice in Gaul. Why let one abhorrent practice survive while destroying the other? One researcher speculated that Rome was not willing to ruffle the feathers of the Egyptians too much since Egypt was the bread basket of the empire, and that Rome could not risk a population that was then be unwilling to feed them. Which does make a lot of sense.

Anyway, it was an odd little group of articles that I read, but it did make me think quite a bit. There wasn't much information on ancient Persia however, or routine practices. Those Roman's were pretty good record keepers but perhaps never really had a foot hold in the Persian empire, especially at a time when it would have mattered.

Maybe those families have some characteristic that the Targs want in their line. The thing that makes any breeding program difficult is that a limited gene pool will concentrate the undesirable characteristics. So if the Martell's share a desirable trait with the Targs but lack some undesirable trait, they may be ideal breeding partners

It can take many generations to breed out undesirable qualities. I am thinking of cows in this case, since I grew up on a farm/ranch. There are breeds that are bred to have horns or not have horns, be large in size or smaller, birth smaller calves than others, produce more milk than others, produce milk that is higher in protein that others. To find the best genes isnt's going to happen in one or two generations. It can take years, and this is when thinking about animals that turn over their population every 2-3 years. And then even when you think you have things worked out nicely, and you haven't seen a horn on a calf in 15 years, you suddenly have a few that do have horns. I suppose there will never be perfection in such things, unless it's all test tubes and hand-picked genes, because lifes lottery has to play a part as well.

So the Targaryen's interbreed with the Velaryon's very several generations. Then they seemed to turn to the Arryn's. Then to the Hightower's. The Daynes and the Martell's. So this could indicate that they were trying to get some genetic quality from those families.

Dany feels a strange sensation when Quaithe touches her which has implications but not enough data points for me to speculate

I agree that Quaithe is really there, in a physical sense. I had also once debated that she was only part of Dany's psyche, but that is not the case, as you point out. But why does she need to hide her face from Dany? The only people hiding their faces could be recognized and are trying to hide their identities. I am thinking mostly about the bronze masked Brazen Beasts of Meereen, but anyone who hides behind a helm or mask is in the same boat. Ser Robert Strong. Garlen Tyrell in Renly's armor. The hints that perhaps it was not Rhaegar in his armor at the Trident. So, that makes me think that Dany could recognize Quaithe in some way. Or Jorah could, since he is another person that has come across Quaithe on more than one occasion and Quaithe is important part of Dany's story, especially in Qarth. So, who is Quaithe? And how could Dany or Jorah recognize her?

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

danl
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The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Feb 29, 2020 18:17:52 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by danl on Feb 29, 2020 18:17:52 GMT

Agreed. Sometimes I question the back story of the Many Faced God. For some people, death would be a gift, but for many other's it would not be.

And we have a couple examples in the story of people deciding for someone that death would be a mercy. The comment is made about Bran (although I doubt that it lead to the assassination attempt but it is in there as a possibility). And Euron killed his brother with greyscale and says he knows he wanted to die. So the earliest stories of the Faceless, if they have a basis in truth, could be more in the nature of 'mercy' killing without the consent of the victim.

They also associate their god with the Stranger, but I don't think of the Stranger as actively requiring some one's death, but perhaps I am looking into the Faith of the Seven incorrectly.

I don't think we see much in the way of commands of any of the Seven other than fairly conventional morality. And I don't think we see much that indicates that anyone really expects them to have direct influence over reality. It is a fairly reason based religion

But I still am confused by how the lion of night is worshiped by using death.

Night, darkness, hidden-ness, and death tend to be associated. I think the Stranger is associated with all of these.

I have never considered that the vision could be manipulated, or the words in the vision could be manipulated. If that is the case, then no dream or vision could be trusted, even the ones that Bran see's from the weirnet.

For some reason, I tend to think of Bran's visions as real visions of the past. But, even if they are, they can be manipulated. History is extensive, and by letting Bran view selected bits without context, someone could shape his understanding.
Of course, this is not so different from the study of history as we often experience it. We get our history through someone's lens. And the people who decide which events get included and which are omitted shape our understanding, not just of historical events but of current institutions and realities.

These articles looked at census records and the results show that 20-40% of the general population at one point in the Ptolemic dynasty showed half or full sibling marriage. The discussion ranged over is this accurate and debate the idea that these sibling couples were one bio child and one adopted child, even though they are listed as full siblings to the same parents. The other idea was that the citizen's were trying to emulate the ruling family in their practices. Without DNA, I don't know how a person could ever solve the adoption vs birth sibling question. Or even the debate that once a person marries and lives within a household, they could be considered a child of the elder couple in the home.

Interesting. Egyptian death practices seem to have evolved in a more egalitarian direction. In the first kingdom (although evidence is very limited), it seems that mummification and resurrection was limited to kings and those accompanying the king. In the middle kingdom, it seems to have been available to those with wealth or power. In the Late Kingdom, the death rituals were accessible to the merchant class and others with moderate wealth. Other practices may have also made their way from the royals. I don't know about inheritance practices, but it seems that royal power was acquired by marrying the king's daughter; so the only way to keep it in the family was to marry son to daughter. If all inheritance was through the daughter, then marrying brother and sister could keep the wealth in the family.
Cousin marriage also has the effect of keeping wealth and power within the family when inheritance is through a daughter, but with a wider notion of family.

And those babies that are born looking half dragon scaled, are a product of a gene that is meant to not survive, but that perhaps has also been a product of such marriages for thousands of years in Valyria.

Maybe the Targs are called dragons for more reason than their sigil. Maybe there is somehow some dragon DNA in their line. I have no idea how that could happen, but GRRM can be a nasty fellow

The debate is why did the Ptolemy's start this practice, when it was certainly not supported by their Greek background? Were they trying to emulate the gods of the population they were trying to rule? Or were they trying to show a population that practiced such consanguineous breeding, that they were worthy to serve as rulers? I find that debate interesting. And also hard to solve.

The Ptolomaic dynasty, after the first generation, started taking on practices of traditional Egyptian rulers. They took on the titles and the dress. Maybe it was to claim legitimacy as rulers. Maybe it was because ancient practices and particularly ancient gods were highly respected in the Hellenistic era.

Why let one abhorrent practice survive while destroying the other? One researcher speculated that Rome was not willing to ruffle the feathers of the Egyptians too much since Egypt was the bread basket of the empire, and that Rome could not risk a population that was then be unwilling to feed them. Which does make a lot of sense.

The Roman ruling class tended to be fairly libertarian in their outlook on sexual practices. They may have looked on it with distaste, but didn't see a reason to repress it. Ptolemy XII was known as the "flute player"; although he did play the flute, the name is believed to be a reference to giving oral sex to men, an accusation that was a sneer but not a prohibited act

The only people hiding their faces could be recognized and are trying to hide their identities.

It's odd to think that Quaithe could be someone that Dany would recognize. But perhaps someone in Dany's party could recognize her. Or Quaithe could be an identity that is shared by multiple people; put on the mask and you are Quaithe today (not sure how the voice would work out).

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The house with the reed door and the lemon tree Mar 3, 2020 23:21:44 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Mar 3, 2020 23:21:44 GMT

Sorry about the delay. Long shifts at work and just haven't had time to check in.

And we have a couple examples in the story of people deciding for someone that death would be a mercy. The comment is made about Bran (although I doubt that it lead to the assassination attempt but it is in there as a possibility). And Euron killed his brother with greyscale and says he knows he wanted to die. So the earliest stories of the Faceless, if they have a basis in truth, could be more in the nature of 'mercy' killing without the consent of the victim.

I think if the Faceless men were responsible for the attempt to kill Bran via the catspaw, then Bran would be dead. However, there is certainly an idea that it would be "mercy" for Bran to die after he was in a coma and no doubt paralyzed from his fall/push. That idea that it's "no mercy" to let him linger comes from Cersei and the idea that it would be a mercy to end his life comes from Jaime. The two people responsible for putting Bran in the situation he is in. Guilt perhaps makes them think of this idea of "mercy". The Euron connection to "mercy" is interesting and perhaps could tie him to the Faceless men, but I think Euron claiming mercy and what his now dead brother might say are two different things. Especially since we don't yet understand greyscale and it's possible purpose. I guess we could also question who get's to decide "mercy" or not?

Although, if the catspaw was associated with the faceless men, it would be an example of the direwolves saving a Stark from the Faceless Men/Many Faced God, and in a way, Arya's connection to Nymeria seems to save her from falling completely into the mindset of the Faceless Men. Except that if Bran was really the target of the Faceless men, I would think they would try again and again and again until they had killed their target.

I don't think we see much in the way of commands of any of the Seven other than fairly conventional morality. And I don't think we see much that indicates that anyone really expects them to have direct influence over reality. It is a fairly reason based religion

Well, Baelor the Blessed prayed to the Seven and I think he expected they listened and gave results. Even Catelyn prays to the seven, and I think she expects they are listening. That is why anyone prays to their gods, because they hope the gods hear and might give aid. Now, do simple prayers have as much power as lighting a man on fire? How do we quantify such a thing? But I do think it seems common to light a candle when praying to one of the seven, so fire might play a role in that religion. It's just as easily that GRRM borrowed that idea from Catholicism to make a certain connection with his readers.

For some reason, I tend to think of Bran's visions as real visions of the past. But, even if they are, they can be manipulated. History is extensive, and by letting Bran view selected bits without context, someone could shape his understanding.
Of course, this is not so different from the study of history as we often experience it. We get our history through someone's lens. And the people who decide which events get included and which are omitted shape our understanding, not just of historical events but of current institutions and realities.

Is it "real" if it's been manipulated? Not to me, if the vision itself is altered. Now, if it's based on forming an idea that might be false based and the type or order of visions sent, then I suppose this could be "real" as well as "false". Sure get's into grey area, though. And interpretation can change as easily as the direction of the wind. Dream interpretation isn't much different than interpreting history. The background and goals of the interpreter can alter anything if they are persuasive enough.

Interesting. Egyptian death practices seem to have evolved in a more egalitarian direction. In the first kingdom (although evidence is very limited), it seems that mummification and resurrection was limited to kings and those accompanying the king. In the middle kingdom, it seems to have been available to those with wealth or power. In the Late Kingdom, the death rituals were accessible to the merchant class and others with moderate wealth. Other practices may have also made their way from the royals. I don't know about inheritance practices, but it seems that royal power was acquired by marrying the king's daughter; so the only way to keep it in the family was to marry son to daughter. If all inheritance was through the daughter, then marrying brother and sister could keep the wealth in the family.
Cousin marriage also has the effect of keeping wealth and power within the family when inheritance is through a daughter, but with a wider notion of family.

Myself, I question of the practices of daily life were much different between the span of kingdoms, but certainly we know more about more recent Egyptian culture than we do older stuff. I think we just don't have enough information to compare these things equally. Although the idea's on incest could certainly have changed or adapted over the centuries. That would make sense based on how life is always an adaption and evolution of idea's and practices.

Maybe the Targs are called dragons for more reason than their sigil. Maybe there is somehow some dragon DNA in their line. I have no idea how that could happen, but GRRM can be a nasty fellow

What is called "witch craft" or "dark sorceries" could certainly have a origin in gene splicing or even cloning. There are hints that Valyrian dragons might be a hybrid of firewyrms and wyvern's. Of course, much more difficult to combine this with human dna, but since GRRM does have an interest in scifi, I think it's possible that could trickle into this story.

I have seen theories that Visenya cloned herself to make Maegor, although he was said to look very like Aegon, only thicker, so perhaps she cloned her brother to make their son?

The Ptolomaic dynasty, after the first generation, started taking on practices of traditional Egyptian rulers. They took on the titles and the dress. Maybe it was to claim legitimacy as rulers. Maybe it was because ancient practices and particularly ancient gods were highly respected in the Hellenistic era.

The Ptolemy's are an interesting group of people. Certainly they would want to adapt in some ways to be more like the people that they were ruling. But some things seem beyond normal expectations. Like having children with your sister, for instance. That seems like A BIG JUMP to make in the span of three generations. So why was it so important to do this? It's not just how you dress or what you eat? I can almost see sibling marriage as a way to define kingship and queenship, BUT to adapt to actually producing children of these marriages, instead of from separate relationships is what seems like a major alteration in previous behavior. It's certainly an interesting thing to study. But it's also quite a bit more dramatic than marrying a cousin, and even that becomes debatable depending on where a person lives.

And while I agree that the God's were important and respected and it is human nature to want to emulate the gods, even if people in the Old Kingdom, or the Early Dynastic period that came before it, thought they actually shared DNA of the gods, which would make them special, by the end of the New Kingdom, there had been enough shifts in dynasic rule that the Ptolemy's from Macedonia would have to understand that they shared none of this special God dna. Perhaps they were a delusional bunch from the start?

The Roman ruling class tended to be fairly libertarian in their outlook on sexual practices. They may have looked on it with distaste, but didn't see a reason to repress it. Ptolemy XII was known as the "flute player"; although he did play the flute, the name is believed to be a reference to giving oral sex to men, an accusation that was a sneer but not a prohibited act

While I agree that Rome was pretty liberal, perhaps even avant-garde in sexual practice, and some marriages might have been questionable as far as uncle-niece or first cousins or even step-siblings, we certainly don't see that liberalness filtering to approved biologic sibling marriages in the upper classes and certainly we don't see a trickle down of that in the lower classes. And it seems that being gay in the ancient world was quite tolerated by the Roman times, the same doesn't seem to be said for true incest.