The house with the reed door and the lemon tree

I did misunderstand your idea of Bran's assassination attempt, but I do see what you mean about the perception of "mercy". Mercy from one perspective is murder from another, and probably can elicit many other emotional responses as well.

Certainly the Faceless Men are trying to appeal to Arya's sense of justice for the little man in their story. Hard to say what is actually the truth or not. They do set themselves up to be the enemy of the dragon's, either the Valyrian's or the dragon's themselves. The truth behind why they are interested in Arya might have something to do with this, but my gut tells me it has to do with her skinchanger ability. I might be very wrong about that, however.



I actually question that Mel is truly expecting three deaths from her sacrifice of the three leaches. She might have, but I am more inclined she already saw those deaths and was using the idea of the leaches to manipulate Stannis into following her beliefs. Same thing with the sacrifice of Alester Florent. She already knew the winds would be good, but she used this "sacrifice" to claim that the Red God would do things for believers with sacrifice, such as give them strong winds. She even almost has Davos convinced, and she certainly has the "queen's men" convinced, since they are performing ritual sacrifice of criminal's while being stranded in a blizzard. What did Mance/Rattleshirt's sacrifice do again? So I am not sure that Mel truly expects a response from R'hller as much as she is using the idea of R'hller's power to gain followers for him.



In a way, all followers expect action from their god, sometimes the expectation is more passive, and sometimes the expectation is more direct. To me, I don't see this as much different in any of the "religions" that we see in this story.



And this certainly might be the idea that GRRM is going for, and can also serve as a bit of an homage.



We really know actually very little about human history. It boggles my mind.



Oh man, the Ptolemy's are quite a crew. So many sons called Ptolemy's, and then those Cleopatra's and Arsinoe's and Berenice's makes it super confusing in my head to sort out. And Greek/Macedonian influence combined with Eqyptian influence, and then trying to please the Roman's. People will do a lot to stay in power.



Yes, there is something to be said for this. And if power comes from the people, then adopting the customs of the land and it's people make a great deal of sense. So in the case of the incest, like many other customs, who was emulating who? And how far down is the trickle down affect?

And the Pharaonic system lasted around 3000 years (with different families, of course) so probably many people within the system must have felt like it worked for them, all those customs and emulations. Another interesting case is the family of King Tut. His parents were siblings, at least half-siblings but probably full siblings, yet his father Akhenaten tried to drastically change the concept of worship in Eqypt, yet he still married and had children with his sister-wife and married his children to one another. There were many still-births within this family line, yet Akhenaten had at least five sisters, so while still births were an issue, they still were producing many children. King Tut's physical deformities are seen to be a sign of his inbreeding, but some of those things, such as his club foot, but I know several people with club feet, and that is not inbreeding, that is usually caused by fetal placement in the womb. And maybe it's still not as common as we think in the Egyptian dynasties. Or perhaps it's more common that we think. Most of that history will probably remain a mystery to us.

What is interesting to me is that incest is quite common in many world religion's. The idea that all descended from one God or group of gods. Greek and Roman are good examples of this and its sibling incest, parent incest sometimes, avuncular. I had just been reading up on the Hades/Persephone myth. It even pop's up in Scandinavian mythos, although associated with the Vanir family and not the Aesir. Some Irish mythos, maybe tied to some Germanic past. We have the Egyptian example of Isis and Osiris. It's in Chinese and Japenese myth, Indonesia. It's even in the legend of King Arthur. Even if it didn't really happen, it's a theme. As time as evolved, it seems to become less revered, but it still is part of mythos. There has to be a reason that it's a prevalent concept all over the world. I do think GRRM is toying with that in his own story. It's about "real" people, not god's, but it's still more legend than truth in the over all feeling. I think all epic stories have that in common. Certainly in several stories, such as Oedipus, there is a tragic end for almost everyone involved, the parents and the children of this incest. Tragedy is also a theme that GRRM is toying with.

I sure hope we get a conclusion to this story from our author.

I certainly think in the end that we (and Arya) will find out that they have been lying to her, about a lot of things, including their interest and expectations in her. 



I agree that Mel does make mistakes, but if she is able to see three deaths, she doesn't need to really understand what caused the deaths, only that they will occur for her to be able to use that as a manipulation tool. Her interpretations are what seems to really get her in trouble, not understanding what she see's. Also, she seems to think that she needs to make something happen, but I think the things will happen anyway. For instance, does she think she needs to burn kings blood leaches to bring about three deaths, when in all actuality what she doesn't understand is that they will happen anyway? If this is the case, then she actually has more weaknesses in understanding how own gift than I had previously thought.



I am not very knowledgeable about Babylonian myths but I think they are associated with Sumerian myths. And with just some quick reading (don't know how accurate it really is) that sex was important to Sumerian's, and procreation was very important. Many people lost their virginity in temples for money and virginity seemed to be worth very little. Sex was important because procreation meant survival. There doesn't seem to be much inhibition when it comes to sex, and there is information that both polygamy and polyandry were accepted but it does seem like incest was quite taboo. The incest that I could find that they were talking about was parent/child incest so I am not sure what degree of consanguinity might have lines drawn around it. What might be okay and what might not be okay could vary from village to village, I suppose.

There is an interesting story about Ishtar/Ashara/Innana, a mesopotamian goddess who knows nothing about sex but wants to learn so her twin brother Ute takes her to the underworld and helps her learn. There is no actual sex but he leads her to a tree where she eats the fruit and then becomes knowledgable. Then this same brother helps her chose a husband, chose between a shepherd and a farmer, which has a Cain and Abel vibe to it. Still, she never has sex with her sibling as far as I can tell but he is her teacher. Odd. Inanna and Ute are also associated as the dispensers of justice, but sounds a bit like Eddard and Ice meeting out justice, but also perhaps Lyanna beating up the squires who picked on Howland at Harrenhal.

The Bible does have some incest stories that are hard to ignore, even if they are meant as lessons. The implication of Adam and Eve's children, for instance. Or Lot and his daughters. These are probably the most intense examples.

Maybe at work tonight I might have some time to dive a little deeper into the Mesopotamian myths.

As to incest implication in his stories, GRRM is obviously not afraid of it. There is plenty to find in ASOIAF, and there are all sorts of variations of possible relationships. And he has some short stories that deal with the concept of inbreeding, if not specifically, with the incest taboo. hard to say how any of that might play out in the conclusion of this series.

She is doing two things with that leech deception. She is trying to prove she can cause these deaths to Stannis with the use of "king's blood", by using Edric Storm's blood, but she is also trying to convince Stannis to give her Edric and then let her sacrifice the boy to the flames. So, I do think this is manipulation.

One thing I question about is whose blood was in the leeches? We are told that she has been leeching Edric Storm, and Davos makes a point of that. But earlier in this same chapter, Davos also wakes to notice leech marks on his own arm. So, I question just whose blood was in those leeches and what was the real purpose of it? Did Mel really use leeches full of Edric's blood, or even Davos' blood for her ritual to convince Stannis of the power of her god. Or were they just plain old leeches full of anyone's blood and the rest was all just smoke and mirrors to convince Stannis to give her Edric Storm. And if she has Edric and Davos' blood, what did she do with it?

There is little doubt in my mind that Mel wants Edric. But she also propositions Davos in the same way she propositions's Jon Snow. She wants blood and she wants seed. If any blood would work, or any seed would work, she would not work so hard to get certain peoples blood or seed. So, it's important to her, but I am still not convinced what we seen with the leeches was any more powerful or special than what we seen with Rattleshirt disguised as Mance.

I don't think that leech blood bought the death of Robb, Balon or Renly. I think it was predestined and she took advantage of what she saw. I would not be surprised if the Ghost of High Heart saw something very similar, only all she wanted was a kiss, a song and some wine. Mel wants a gift of blood to further her agenda, or R'hller's agenda.



I certainly think we are suppose to speculate on Jon and Arya as a couple or in a sexual way, whether it will ever come to fruition. That line about Jon giving Arya a sword (Needle) and noting that it's sheath was  "scabbard was soft grey leather, supple as sin" is almost like hitting me over the head with a sexual reference. Between 14 and 8 year old siblings. Wowzers!

How that might relate to Lyanna and one of her siblings is still be be seen. We don't know much about Lyanna, and I am certain some of those reveals might be some of the things that GRRM is struggling with in his unfinished books. What we do know is that there is a strong connection drawn between Jon and Eddard. Although this might hint at Brandon Stark also, who must have looked somewhat like Ned, only Ned is shorter and plainer. And the Arya and Lyanna connection is made several times in the story, both by Ned and then later by Harwin. Also Meera's Harrenhal story hints at Lyanna behaving in a way that perhaps reminds the reader of how Arya might behave. The connections are there, I think, although I suppose this could be a false trail that GRRM is setting?

And if there is some sexual conduct at some point between Jon and Arya, they are both so changed from the people they were at Winterfell, they are almost not the same person. But the hints were peppered into the story while they did still live at Winterfell and very much felt like they had a strong sibling bone, so the separation of time might just be to ease the readers discomfort if this relationship does happen. 

Jaime and Cersei have never once denied their sibling bond, and GRRM isn't at all afraid to shove that relationship in our face, gritty, dark and very sexual at times. Since I don't think GRRM is setting one family up to be white knights while the other family is dark demons, it the effort of grey characters and fairness, I think he is well capable of giving a deviant and taboo relationship to one of the Stark siblings pairs, I am just not sure which generation he would link it to. I think if it's both generations, then it might be too much. Unless it's because the Stark genetic DNA must be brought to the forefront through several generations. That is something I still think is possible. Rickard and Lyarra were cousin, if Lyanna had a child with her brother (any of them) then that Stark dna should have a greater chance of shining. Jon is known to look very like a Stark, and he does have more of the north in him than his brother's. (I think this could also be a hint at Mance as Jon's father, another bard who perhaps kidnapped a Stark maid).

As to Arya's sense of justice... yes. It's a strong part of her character, both in the riverlands, and then later in Braavos. I think it even starts to form in Kings Landing, but it's her escape into the riverland that fires it. She is also unafraid to kill, something not every child could do. What does that say for Eddard, who also is known as a dispenser of justice, he and his sword Ice. Jon also uses his sword to dispense justice in a very Stark way with the execution of Janos Slynt, which also feels like it's in some way closed a door on Ned's death, something that Arya was an unfortunate witness to.

I am going to borrow a post I just made on this from another thread, to save myself some typing.


Now, for a bit more focused look at your question:

Edric Storm does share Robert Baratheon's blood line and there is no disputing that Robert was THE KING when Edric was conceived. But Edric is not just a kings bastard and of Baratheon blood, he is also of Florent blood via is mother Delena Florent. The Florents are said to descend from Garth Greenhand. This Florent/Baratheon blood line also shows up in Shireen, and that Florent blood line might prove important in her perceived death by fire (if that happens). Interestingly, Samwell Tarly is also supposed to be of Florent blood, since his mother Melessa is the child of Alester Florent, whom Melisandre gave to her fire god on Dragonstone. Melessa Florent Tarly is interesting to me because her father is a Florent and her mother is a Crane, another family that is descended from Garth Greenhand, and is said to have skinchanging ability. To me, it seems like these blood lines have been possibly reuniting over the last several generations, perhaps because these children are very important to the endgame of the story. IF Samwell is really the son of Randyll Tarly and Melessa Florent but for this argument, I will stick with what we are told.

I don't think Mel is interested in Mance for his blood, and I'm not sure how much she puts in store of him being a "king". However, if Mance's "kingship" or blood is important to Mel, I do wonder if she tried to seduce Mance out of some of his seed, like she does Stannis, Jon, and Davos. Although in my theory of "king's blood" being important, if it's not related to being called a king, I am not sure what Mel see's in Stannis' blood. They do make some shadowbabies who do some damage, but I think she might be able to make those babies with anyone, and she just thinks that certain blood makes them stronger. Stannis' mother was an Estermont of the Stormlands and we don't yet know who Cassana's mother was. That might be an important key. Robert is said to have had an affair with an Estermont cousin and with the way that Robert bred bastards (I do see a archetype between Garth Greenhand and Robert Baratheon even if I don't see that they share blood) then Robert might have had a bastard with this Estermont cousin who would be descended from the same female bloodline as Robert and Stannis. This might be more indepth that GRRM ever intended however, and I might be making a mountain out of a mole hill.



This is a good question. I had been thinking that perhaps any man could make a shadow baby with her, but only someone of a certain bloodline would make that shadow so powerful. But what if she can only make these with certain men? That makes us focus on Stannis, who we know she did create shadow's with, and Jon and Davos, whom she has propositioned. I had questioned if she had made or attempted to make one with Mance, but that is all based on speculation. There is no odd shadow that shows up at the wall looking like Mance, at least not yet, so perhaps she never does attempt this. Therefore Mance's blood or power is not something she wants to use in this way. But she does think Mance is worth sparing, and I think there is more to Mel and Mance's deal than just the trip to Winterfell.

And it makes sense to me that she want's Jon Snow. I think it's because of his Stark blood, but many people speculate it's related to his blood through Rhaegar. But still, we know there is something special about Jon Snow even if we are not quite sure what it is.

But Davos, what about Davos? Davos is of low birth and raised in Flea Bottom. If he knows who is parents are, that is never revealed. And he chose his own last name and house name and sigil, so if he knows about his past, he is not revealing anything. This reminds me of Gendry, who we know who is father is, but Gendry knows neither who is father or mother are. This also reminds me of the origin story for Duncan the Tall.

Melisandre is a shadowbinder, and the only other character that is given this title or power is Quaithe. I assume they have the power to control the shadows they produce, but perhaps they can only create those shadows with certain men. Here is my question if that is so. How do they know which men to create a shadow with? Is in a feeling, in told to them in dreams, or a guess? Do they fornicate often hoping to find the right connection and it's luck of the draw? That doesn't seem like it would work well. But it does make we wonder about temple prostitution and if both Quaithe and Mel served in this way, and could this process be about lucking out and crossing the correct person by fate.

Another thing that I question about Mel's shadow babies with Stannis is the fate of these shadows. Are they a one time effort that fades to nothing after their deed is done and/or the sun rises? Or do they live on, waiting for more commands from their "mother"?

So far Davos and Jon have shown greater willpower than Stannis, which is odd, because Stannis seems about as unlikely to be a random fornicator as we see in this story. Did she bewitch him, and how? Is it possible that Selyse actually convinced Stannis to become Mel's lover? Selyse has to be aware of Stannis' relationship to Mel and she never seems to raise any sort of fuss about it.



I think you are correct and he doesn't, or didn't start out caring about the readers sensibilities. At least in regards to incest in the story. Perhaps I have seen too many comments over the years from fans who think GRRM would never allow the Stark's to fall into the wretched pit of incest, and that their opinions that it would defile the story in some way. I do wonder if some of that belief in the fandom has trickled down to him and that is why he hesitates to finish his story. Because if Starkcest turns out to be the case, in one generation or the next or even in multiple generations, I can see a huge meltdown from many fans. And I don't know that he is on board with that as much now as he might have been 10 or 20 years ago. I guess if we ever get more books from him, we will get some kind of closure, whether it's what he originally intended or not.



Arya does seem to make some rules up, but I think she is being guided by what she knows of her own family history. Or at least as much as a 11 year old can know and understand.

Ned, yes, seems to fulfill this duty and doesn't seem to relish it. But he could have chosen to spare Gared and did not. Did Ned in some way enjoy that execution? I doubt we will ever know. And this might be odd, but just prior to the Hands Tourney, there is a mention of a woman's head being found in a fountain at the Sept of Baelor and Ned doesn't even blink to hear this. I always thought that was odd. Ned has brought Ice to King's Landing and I wonder if that sword calls out for blood, likes the taste of blood and Ned in some way needs to fulfill this. Perhaps I have been reading to much about Elric and Stormbringer, that thirsty demon sword, but that line about the womans head in the fountain has struck me as odd and I have connected it to Eddard from the very first time I read A Game of Thrones.


Varys shudder's dramatically and calls it dreadful. Ned gives us no reaction at all. Perhaps this is because is mind is focused on other things, but it stands out odd to me. And at the Great Sept of Baelor in a holy pool? Perhaps a big FU to the Faith of the Seven?


As to Jon, we see him serving justice once when he takes Janos Slynt's life. But he didn't have to do that. He could have exiled the man or imprisoned him. He chose to execute him, which no one seems to upset about, so LC's must have done this in the past. But the initial sentence was hanging, which does seem to fit execution on the wall, but Jon then chooses to take Janos's head of himself. Like a Stark. But Jon isn't supposed to be guided by his family anymore, and I can't ignore the fact that I think Jon did relish that death. Jon seems well aware that Janos Slynt was part of the reason for Ned's death, and so Jon is seeking revenge as much as he is serving any justice as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

I think it's more complicated with all of them than it seems. We also have the idea of Robb seeking justice in the ways of the Stark's. He takes of Rickard Karstark's head (it's a bit botched, but Robb doesn't have V-steel to help him out and he is wielding a pole axe, which he is probably not that familiar with). Robb is probably the Stark we see who is attempting to serve justice in the "old ways of the First Men" the most, and it cost's him a fair share of northern support. And eventually contributes to his downfall. Complicated.

Sorry to take so long to reply. I forgot my useid and password. Proof that memory doesn't improve with age. You always raise interesting points.

If it wasn't for the woods witch, I wouldn't feel so sure that Dany is the one. She wakes dragons from stone which is what I really think the prophecy of the pwip is all about.



This is a strange and ambiguous statement and the woods witch is likely the GoHH. What is it that they want to know? What went wrong at Summerhall? It seems the Targs have lost the knowledge for hatching dragon eggs but the words 'waking the dragon" and waking dragons from stone is still part of their lexicon. I read the GoHH/woods witch prophecy with the missing words:

'The Prince [who will wake dragons from stone, who] was promised (in an earlier prophecy) would be born of their line.

Aemon tells us Prince was a translation error from the earlier prophecy. So I don't think Dany is a substitute.