Post by danl on Mar 5, 2020 21:54:00 GMT
I think if the Faceless men were responsible for the attempt to kill Bran via the catspaw, then Bran would be dead. However, there is certainly an idea that it would be "mercy" for Bran to die after he was in a coma and no doubt paralyzed from his fall/push. That idea that it's "no mercy" to let him linger comes from Cersei and the idea that it would be a mercy to end his life comes from Jaime. The two people responsible for putting Bran in the situation he is in. Guilt perhaps makes them think of this idea of "mercy". The Euron connection to "mercy" is interesting and perhaps could tie him to the Faceless men, but I think Euron claiming mercy and what his now dead brother might say are two different things. Especially since we don't yet understand greyscale and it's possible purpose. I guess we could also question who get's to decide "mercy" or not?
I wasn't meaning to suggest that the Faceless were involved in that attempt on Bran's life, or Euron's on his brother. Just that the ambiguity of 'mercy' is a theme that is found in the text. Maybe the first of the Faceless killed slaves who begged for death, but maybe they killed slaves they thought were better off dead. So assuming the is truth in the Faceless origin story, it is possible that even then, the Gift was not welcomed.
The argument that Bran would be better off dead is probably a strong one in Westeros culture, but for Cersei and Jaime, it was certainly a self-interested one. Euron thought his brother wanted death, but he also saw fear in his eyes, so it is likely that it was Euron who wanted him dead or wanted to watch him die, then imagined that was what he wanted.
Of course, we have examples of people asking for (even begging for) the mercy of death, but even there, there is sometimes ambiguity. Would the Hound have been better off dying before finding peace as the gravedigger (iassuming he has found peace)? Did Luwin have some objective in mind in his death other than ending his pain?
So assuming there is truth in the Faceless origin story, it is possible that even then, the Gift was not welcomed.
Well, Baelor the Blessed prayed to the Seven and I think he expected they listened and gave results. Even Catelyn prays to the seven, and I think she expects they are listening. That is why anyone prays to their gods, because they hope the gods hear and might give aid. Now, do simple prayers have as much power as lighting a man on fire? How do we quantify such a thing? But I do think it seems common to light a candle when praying to one of the seven, so fire might play a role in that religion. It's just as easily that GRRM borrowed that idea from Catholicism to make a certain connection with his readers.
I am drawing a distinction between those who think the god(s) hear and maybe respond subtly and those who expect a direct, observable result for specific, costly sacrifices. If I pray for someone who is entering surgery, at best I hope that there will be a divine thumb on the scales, improving the odds of survival. If I make three sacrifices of king's blood, expecting three kings to die, that seems like a qualitatively different level of expectation.
I think the Faith of the Seven, in that respect, is similar to mainstream, European (including US) Christianity. Cat thinks someone is listening and may somehow shape events, but she really doesn't expect the Mother to plan her day around her prayers. She hopes for events to be shaped in her direction but does not expect identifiable divine action. There may be outlyers like Baelor who expected something for obvious, but they are not the usual
Is it "real" if it's been manipulated? Not to me, if the vision itself is altered. Now, if it's based on forming an idea that might be false based and the type or order of visions sent, then I suppose this could be "real" as well as "false".
I think it is real in the sense that series of accurate photographs is real, although they may be arranged to give a false impression (or arguably false). The visions could be entirely accurate reflections of particular historical moments, but stripped of essential context.
In LotR, Denethor(?) the Steward of Gondor has a palantir that he uses to spy on the armies of Sauron. However, Sauron is able to control what he sees. His visions are accurate, but present of misleading picture of the strength of Sauron's forces. The visions are accurate but misleading. I think Bran's visions may be similar.
Myself, I question of the practices of daily life were much different between the span of kingdoms, but certainly we know more about more recent Egyptian culture than we do older stuff. I think we just don't have enough information to compare these things equally.
There may be truth here. Even records of the middle kingdom are extremely limited and, when the curtain is pulled back and the source material revealed, what we know about that period involves some tinfoil construction
I can almost see sibling marriage as a way to define kingship and queenship, BUT to adapt to actually producing children of these marriages, instead of from separate relationships is what seems like a major alteration in previous behavior. It's certainly an interesting thing to study. But it's also quite a bit more dramatic than marrying a cousin, and even that becomes debatable depending on where a person lives.
I agree
Perhaps they were a delusional bunch from the start?
There is quite a bit about that family that seems bizarre
And it seems that being gay in the ancient world was quite tolerated by the Roman times, the same doesn't seem to be said for true incest.
True. But the Ptolomies may have adopted Egyptian garb with the expectation that their practices would be tolerated if they seemed like they came from a different world