Post by shymaid on Apr 15, 2019 15:15:50 GMT
Welcome back! I think it has come a couple times in our discussions, when I tip over the edge of the cracked pot and can't get out!
Thanks! Gods, I've been here for hours now!
And yes, I most definitely think we've discussed it before, but I haven't gone back and looked. Honestly, with all your cracked pots, it's hardly a surprise that you tip over their edges with regular intervals!
Yes, the fact that Cat was dead three days, or in the water three days (I can't remember which, right now) does make a person wonder how long a spirit could remain in any vessel, especially in a vessel one isn't born to. I just remember thinking about Jon's dreams in the crypts, when he see's a direwolf, full of holes and ghastly, and I always thought that was Grey Wind, but where is Robb's spirit then? Now, that might be the dream where Jon is trying to get to the feast of the dead, and he is separated, so it might indicate that Robb's spirit is in the feast of the dead, with Ned and Robert, and that this direwolf that looks sad and is full of holes means something else besides Grey Wind.
This has been my main problem with this line of thought, not the idea itself. But speaking of which *running over to the "things that makes you go hmmmm" thread where I posted a little while ago*
"Do all the birds have singers in them?"
"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin."Bran III, Dance
"They say you forget," Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. "When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."
Prologue, Dance
So, it's clearly established that skinchangers live a second life in their animal. And Bran discovers that the singers do as well, to the point of every raven in the cave has one inside them. This has me wondering, however, as this implies that the singers in the ravens are long dead skinchangers and greenseers.
- Is there a difference in the abilities of skinchangers of human kind and singers kind? In that the singers linger longer and can "jump" from one raven to another (due to the mortality of the ravens)?
- Is this difference due to a connection to the weirnet?
- If only the greenseers are allowed into the weirnet, how long have some of these singers lingered?
This might suggest that a second life is a bit more flexible than what is normally thought. Not really sure how to tie this into Grey Wind and Robb just not, and I do agree that this dream has Grey Wind in the crypts and the feast of the dead upstairs.
There's so many little things I've noticed while listening to the audio versions lately, but I've forgotten to note them down... In particular Bran III, Dance gave me a few ideas. Sigh!
Interesting thought. Yes, it does seem like Varamyr feared that people would know what he had done or was trying to do. And that these people north of the wall would be aware, even if it's just in tales told around camp fires, of skinchangers trying to steal bodies. But that also sounds a bit like the idea of the wight's, too! Only difference is a live body that won't decay and a dead body who can't fight off the possession! Interesting that Thistle's has to deal with both types of possession.
Yep! And an interesting similarity too with the wights! And a small correction, it wasn't Thistle Varamyr had thought to take possession of, but two or three others in their company.
Damn, Thistle was damned to be possessed either way! Poor woman...
Well, I would have to reread to know for certain if Bran had been slipping into Hodor while on the journey north. Certainly Bran spent time in Summer. I don't know if the fact that Hodor was completely having a melt down near the cave entrance made it easier for Bran to slip into him, or if Bran was already attempting to slip into Hodor and that increased Hodor's melt down. Either option is not something I have considered before. Also, I wonder if being close the Bloodraven and the cave helped Bran's powers?
No, I haven't noticed any hints of him re-entering Hodor earlier, but I've found his ease in doing so outside the cave a bit odd for a time. But I might be wanting more of a learning curve here than what Martin has written.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that Haggon had tried to slip into a human, only that he was aware that it had been tried by other's in the past. He knew enough to warn Varamyr away from that path of "abominations".
Ah, gottcha!
Yes, good point. Another mother-son bond that seems to draw on vengeance as a goal!
Thanks! I've long missed a direct connection to the current story with those visions, as I've thought it fitting in the storytelling that there would be one. This might be it!
And vengeance indeed...
It was the first thing that came to me when reading that quote! Though the obvious question is how Robb would be a king again... And I don't have an answer at all!
I had not thought about these two, but that is a good point. If Cersei can send spies to the wall in men who will join the Night's Watch, why can't the Blackfish do the same thing? And right under Jaime's nose! Ha!
Alas, I cannot take credit for that. It was mentioned in a stream on the Northern Ambition not long ago, and I have heard it earlier but forgotten who.
Also it mirrors the two clansmen who has also arrived at the Wall. Seems like Jon is being seized up from several directions here.
Does Luwin say that, or is that something that Ned thinks? I can't for the life of me find that quote right now.
"He was going to be a knight," Arya was saying now. "A knight of the Kingsguard. Can he still be a knight?"
"No," Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. "Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king's council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother's Faith and become the High Septon." But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.
"No," Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. "Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king's council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother's Faith and become the High Septon." But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.
Eddard V
Stands to reason that Luwin is the source of this information. Though he might be wrong, of course.
Hahaha! Yes, to all of that!