Post by stdaga on Jan 1, 2020 19:34:21 GMT
Oops. I some how missed seeing these comments!
You make a good comparison with Catelyn and Lady Hornwood, since these are two women who live in the north. We know how Cersei feels about Robert's bastards, and it's not warm and fuzzy. Ah, Cersei, threatening to kill your husbands bastards while raising your very own bastards right under your husbands nose! She is a piece of work!
But back to Cat and Hornwood, we do have two women who are presented with the option of their husbands bastards being named heir to the castle they both call home. In the Hornwood case, we don't know what Robb would have done and Bran didn't feel he had the authority to make that judgement. And then Ramsay stole Hornwood away. Ironic that it was Ramsay that also stole Winterfell away, although it wasn't quite the same path.
One thing that is missing in the Hornwood situation is we don't know how Lady Hornwood felt about her husbands bastard. We don't know why the bastard was raised away from Hornwood, or if he ever has even been there. That's a missing element in the Cat/Lady Hornwood comparison and could skew the similarities.
I don't know that we have any more named bastards in the north besides Jon Snow, Ramsay Snow and Larence Snow. I am sure there are more just based on statistic's but they are not named, nor are they hinted at. Jon was the only bastard raised in his father's home, although Ramsay was eventually brought to his father's home. As far as we know, Larence Snow has never set foot in Hornwood, but we don't know if was raised there and sent away at some point, either.
It's possible, although man that would put Alysanne right up next to Cersei on the level of conniving, if this turns out to be the case. Changing the whole nation just to suit her own personal goals.
My speculation is just based on how many of the Targaryen's are said to have dreams of some sort. I really think of them as all being capable of these types of prophetic dreams.
"Off" in what way? I am curious. Jaehaerys was two years elder than her, but chose not to consummate that marriage based on her young age. Just because she was to young for sex, doesn't mean he thought he was. No reason to think he had sex with no one but her before their marriage.
So far, it seems like Arya is dumping her bodies in the canel's of Braavos, but what might she do if she returns to Westeros? It almost seems it would have to be a body of someone she felt deserved to be buried, otherwise I can see her just walking away from the remains and leaving it for the wolves and ravens to scavenge from.
Something about the connection of Stark's to strong and the "seed is strong" makes me connect the Stark's to being important seed starters. Speculation, I suppose.
I always found her logic kind of odd in that case. After all, they are on a ship made of wood, and wood comes from trees. Maybe that means from Gilly's perspective, the tree's must be living, or at least rooted. I think she was just manipulating Sam and his "mast" complied!
It's a very odd passage! Much of Arya's training in the HoBaW is quite full of potentially odd happenings and I wonder how much is real and how must is false.
A couple things here. I guess it depends on interpretation as to why Stannis is withered. I don't see it as a relation to R'hller, I see it as a hint to him being a kinslayer.
I guess the imagery of Wendel Manderly holding that leg of lamb like a scepter could be a hint at the ambitions of House Manderly. They want to be kings, like they were once upon a time, before they over reached and were exiled from the Reach. That is an interpretation I had not considered. If this is how GRRM is hinting their ambitions to us, then perhaps Wyman did not intend to sacrifice Wendel and Wyman's anger at Wendel's death was the first schism between the anti-Stark conspirators responsible for the Red Wedding.
As to the movie version of the Fellowship of the Ring's, I doubt that influenced GRRM in his writing of the Red Wedding only because the first three books were published before the movies came out. I guess I would have to find my copy of the books and look through the written scene. It's been years and years since I read them. Almost 10 years now, cause when my dog was a puppy she ate my copy of The Two Towers. Scattered it around my living room like confetti!
Well, anyone she married would serve as consort, but would not be king. She would be queen however. Although this society doesn't seem to want to have Queen's ruling them. But it would be no different if Rhaenys had been queen and Corlys her consort. Whom ever is the consort of the ruler would be given great power. And Daeron's consort was a Martell as well.
But I am mostly looking at Daenerys as the legitimate child that no one questioned her legitimacy and the fact that she came from her parents, who were both tied to the throne through direct blood. Still, it's highly unlikely that many people in Westeros wanted a queen. It's a funny thing how we know that Daenerys married Maron Martell and she seems to be well loved in Dorne, yet we don't have her heirs listed. We know she had a son and heir, meaning he would be her eldest living child, based on Dornish law. But that son isn't named, nor any other children she had, and I think that's a glaring hole. Something being hidden from us. And this might be why Doran has such ambitions.
Either way, through Daeron and his marriage to Mariah Martell, or (if this path would have been traveled) Daenerys and her marriage to Maron Martell, the line of rule ended up going through House Martell of Dorne. I don't see why people would fear House Martell's connection to the throne at this point.
However, I don't think Cat is alone in her feelings when it comes to husbands and bastards. It seems quite common to place a highborn bastard away from the lord's castle. When discussing who would inherit the Hornwood lands, Luwin and Ser Rodrik were concerned with Lady Hornwood's feelings when the Hornwood bastard came up, that she might not be keen on the boy inherit due to his birth. Knowing their husbands are siring bastards is one thing, having them under their own roofs is quite another. With Lyanna bringing up this point certainly makes me think she would be of the less forgiving women in this.
You make a good comparison with Catelyn and Lady Hornwood, since these are two women who live in the north. We know how Cersei feels about Robert's bastards, and it's not warm and fuzzy. Ah, Cersei, threatening to kill your husbands bastards while raising your very own bastards right under your husbands nose! She is a piece of work!
But back to Cat and Hornwood, we do have two women who are presented with the option of their husbands bastards being named heir to the castle they both call home. In the Hornwood case, we don't know what Robb would have done and Bran didn't feel he had the authority to make that judgement. And then Ramsay stole Hornwood away. Ironic that it was Ramsay that also stole Winterfell away, although it wasn't quite the same path.
One thing that is missing in the Hornwood situation is we don't know how Lady Hornwood felt about her husbands bastard. We don't know why the bastard was raised away from Hornwood, or if he ever has even been there. That's a missing element in the Cat/Lady Hornwood comparison and could skew the similarities.
I don't know that we have any more named bastards in the north besides Jon Snow, Ramsay Snow and Larence Snow. I am sure there are more just based on statistic's but they are not named, nor are they hinted at. Jon was the only bastard raised in his father's home, although Ramsay was eventually brought to his father's home. As far as we know, Larence Snow has never set foot in Hornwood, but we don't know if was raised there and sent away at some point, either.
Not in whole, perhaps in part. Two birds with one stone?
It's possible, although man that would put Alysanne right up next to Cersei on the level of conniving, if this turns out to be the case. Changing the whole nation just to suit her own personal goals.
Well, we might get something in other books that shows/indicates that Alysanne had dreams. With what we got, I don't see that. It's possible she was given a dream at the Wall, but I don't see any evidence of that.
My speculation is just based on how many of the Targaryen's are said to have dreams of some sort. I really think of them as all being capable of these types of prophetic dreams.
As for my own tinfoil, I do base my suspicion on more than just the word "faithful". During my first read, their sojourn at Dragonstone after their first wedding sounded really off to me, and then the matter came up later several times, and I got the feeling of a tad bit too much protesting. I haven't gotten around to make that post as yet, there are many chapters to go through and I haven't read much of anything the last few months (my pile of to-read-books have continued to grow...). But it's still on my list of things to investigate, and I hope to get that post done and make my case better than I have here. And I might very well be wrong.
"Off" in what way? I am curious. Jaehaerys was two years elder than her, but chose not to consummate that marriage based on her young age. Just because she was to young for sex, doesn't mean he thought he was. No reason to think he had sex with no one but her before their marriage.
Ah, I see. Well, perhaps we'll learn if she plants a seed!
So far, it seems like Arya is dumping her bodies in the canel's of Braavos, but what might she do if she returns to Westeros? It almost seems it would have to be a body of someone she felt deserved to be buried, otherwise I can see her just walking away from the remains and leaving it for the wolves and ravens to scavenge from.
Something about the connection of Stark's to strong and the "seed is strong" makes me connect the Stark's to being important seed starters. Speculation, I suppose.
Hard to say! It's easy to think the weirwoods are what's needed, but it might be all trees. Gilly seems to connect the old gods to trees in general, as she thinks they can't see her and Sam fucking on the boat south of Dorne. But if other trees means all trees or just specific trees is hard to say!
I always found her logic kind of odd in that case. After all, they are on a ship made of wood, and wood comes from trees. Maybe that means from Gilly's perspective, the tree's must be living, or at least rooted. I think she was just manipulating Sam and his "mast" complied!
I find it very confusing! And I think I have to make a post on it, breaking it down, as it would take too long here. Hard to say if they are bullshiting her or not!
It's a very odd passage! Much of Arya's training in the HoBaW is quite full of potentially odd happenings and I wonder how much is real and how must is false.
Well, looking at the imagery here. Stannis in his aim for the throne has aligned himself with R'hollor, and now looks like a living corpse. The Manderlys are all fat to the extreme, so it seems a bit of an opposition to me, but might be different sides of the same coin. The Manderlys are rich and powerful, and yet all their efforts to get a foothold with the Targaryens failed. Wendel was killed in a plot with a heavy hand of a lord who definitely follows the old gods - Roose. It just came to me how that image reminds me of the killing of the cave troll in the Fellowship of the Ring, in fact. I had a spout of watching the movies this summer. The cave troll is wielding a huge club, Wendel is holding a leg of lamb (which are quite large!); both are slain by arrow(s) in the mouth during a battle in a confined space. Not sure if that means anything, but I had to mention it! Following a bit in the line of thought from the Lord of the Rings, the ring causes infighting between its opponents; in Winterfell Wyman is injured by the Freys - same religion, seemingly on the same side, but certainly infighting. I know it's not the best parallell, but it came to mind. Anyway, it makes me question if getting their hands on Rickon would really benefit the Manderlys, as I think the old gods would be reliant on pawns to do their work.
A couple things here. I guess it depends on interpretation as to why Stannis is withered. I don't see it as a relation to R'hller, I see it as a hint to him being a kinslayer.
I guess the imagery of Wendel Manderly holding that leg of lamb like a scepter could be a hint at the ambitions of House Manderly. They want to be kings, like they were once upon a time, before they over reached and were exiled from the Reach. That is an interpretation I had not considered. If this is how GRRM is hinting their ambitions to us, then perhaps Wyman did not intend to sacrifice Wendel and Wyman's anger at Wendel's death was the first schism between the anti-Stark conspirators responsible for the Red Wedding.
As to the movie version of the Fellowship of the Ring's, I doubt that influenced GRRM in his writing of the Red Wedding only because the first three books were published before the movies came out. I guess I would have to find my copy of the books and look through the written scene. It's been years and years since I read them. Almost 10 years now, cause when my dog was a puppy she ate my copy of The Two Towers. Scattered it around my living room like confetti!
I see. I don't agree with that, however, due to the Dornish issue. The new alliance between the Iron Throne and Dorne was a huge thing on the rebellion's side, much due to their strong influence at court. So I don't see anyone bringing up her as a contender to the throne as that would put the Prince of Dorne as her consort, which would not gain popularity with many of the lords who didn't like Daeron.
Well, anyone she married would serve as consort, but would not be king. She would be queen however. Although this society doesn't seem to want to have Queen's ruling them. But it would be no different if Rhaenys had been queen and Corlys her consort. Whom ever is the consort of the ruler would be given great power. And Daeron's consort was a Martell as well.
But I am mostly looking at Daenerys as the legitimate child that no one questioned her legitimacy and the fact that she came from her parents, who were both tied to the throne through direct blood. Still, it's highly unlikely that many people in Westeros wanted a queen. It's a funny thing how we know that Daenerys married Maron Martell and she seems to be well loved in Dorne, yet we don't have her heirs listed. We know she had a son and heir, meaning he would be her eldest living child, based on Dornish law. But that son isn't named, nor any other children she had, and I think that's a glaring hole. Something being hidden from us. And this might be why Doran has such ambitions.
Either way, through Daeron and his marriage to Mariah Martell, or (if this path would have been traveled) Daenerys and her marriage to Maron Martell, the line of rule ended up going through House Martell of Dorne. I don't see why people would fear House Martell's connection to the throne at this point.