They might not need to kill all men. As long as men stay obedient to their greenseer overlords (aka the Old Gods), a small, sustainable population may be allowed to go on - as was the case for the COTF. (I now have more hope than ever that they will end up having a cool backstory! All those bones in the cave must have come from somewhere - so what happened? A giant battle underground in which almost all the Children died to defend their greenseer? Sound familiar? )
Perhaps humans require a culling from time to time. At least from the view of the CotF, who have a slow reproductive rate.
The skulls could come from a battle long ago, or is it where they come to die?
The trees do need blood to grow and thrive, and men killing each other provides plenty of delicious blood to sap up. Mmm Yumm.
Heavy weirwood>Old Gods>cotf>greenseer precursors in: Tuf Voyaging: Guardians (even has a type of "Others" to protect the indigenous hive-mind creature) ASTNKM (cotf-like race protect the hive-minded centers of power) A Song for Lya (cotf-like race+human race absorbed/used by the hive mind)
And by the end, the human invaders are also worshipping the hive minded centers of power...
Hmmm! Does that then connect the Andal's to the Pale Child Bakkalon within this story? A pale child with a sword is mentioned in Braavos in the House of Black and White and also in F&B in relation to the Rogare's, who also have a connection with cats. Cat's are said to be tough to warg, but Arya manages just fine! Arya tells us this statue is visited by soldiers, so is it connected to the Warrior, in regards to the Seven/Andals, or is it death?
I always viewed the Steel Angels as the First Men, since in the end they make peace with the jaenshi/COTF and begin to also worship the pyramids/weirwoods. Their religious fervor does also remind one of the Andals though, and it now seems as though the Andals also may be ruled by the weirwoods by the end.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Also let's not forget that the White Tree with Red Leaves has competition on the other side of the world in Essos: the Black Tree with Blue Leaves--from which Shade of the Evening is made. Which means there's at least 2 collective consciousnesses working here--and they might be at war with one another and using the lesser races to wage said war.
The combination of black and white is certainly used to signify death in this story. Presumably, whenever a character refers to an object as "weirwood and ebony", they call the black wood ebony because they are not familiar with Shade trees. But I would bet that's what it really is, every time. The question is: are the two types of trees opposed to one another, creating conflict among men when they want to wage a war, or are they working together to bring death to Man?
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
I'm far from sure what they are up to! Now or before. It's certainly possible they took out Valyria, but if so, and it was to protect the trees, why didn't they act when the Targaryens came with their dragons? It is interesting that several dragon fights take place by the Gods Eye, though!
It just occurred to me that we have no idea how the Faceless Men acquired the ability to wear faces in the first place. The first time Arya sees them, she calls them skins. This of course immediately makes me think of the Boltons, who were said to wear human skins as cloaks.
GRRM has written at least 2 other stories in which humans can wear skins to change their appearance. In one of them, the process similarly requires bleeding on the skin the first time it is worn. There is a woman named Grey Alys who has pale eyes, doesn't age, and has a closet full of skins. Sound familiar? So clearly this is a concept GRRM has been playing with for some time. But as it regards the Faceless Men - was the first of them able to do this? How else would he have been so successful in killing other slaves without being noticed? But where would he have learned it? So many questions...
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Also let's not forget that the White Tree with Red Leaves has competition on the other side of the world in Essos: the Black Tree with Blue Leaves--from which Shade of the Evening is made. Which means there's at least 2 collective consciousnesses working here--and they might be at war with one another and using the lesser races to wage said war.
The combination of black and white is certainly used to signify death in this story. Presumably, whenever a character refers to an object as "weirwood and ebony", they call the black wood ebony because they are not familiar with Shade trees. But I would bet that's what it really is, every time. The question is: are the two types of trees opposed to one another, creating conflict among men when they want to wage a war, or are they working together to bring death to Man?
Martin has had multiple different collective consciousnesses competing against one another before, I don't see why not here--it would also parallel how the tree's colors are an inversion of each other.
The trees do need blood to grow and thrive, and men killing each other provides plenty of delicious blood to sap up. Mmm Yumm.
And the greenseers need blood sacrifices to perform big acts like the Hammer of the Waters...
We have heard several references to the aftermath of battles being a feast for crows... but what they don't tell us is that it's also a feast for weirwoods. Which fits, of course, as crows and weirwoods seem to go together.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
“Father.” Bran’s voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. “Father, it’s me. It’s Bran. Brandon.” Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can’t. Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill up with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwood’s? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?
And now Theon:
The heart tree stood before him, a pale giant with a carved face and leaves like bloody hands. A thin film of ice covered the surface of the pool beneath the weirwood. Theon sank to his knees beside it. “Please,” he murmured through his broken teeth, “I never meant …” The words caught in his throat. “Save me,” he finally managed. “Give me …” What? Strength? Courage? Mercy? Snow fell around him, pale and silent, keeping its own counsel. The only sound was a faint soft sobbing. Jeyne, he thought. It is her, sobbing in her bridal bed. Who else could it be? Gods do not weep. Or do they? The sound was too painful to endure. Theon grabbed hold of a branch and pulled himself back to his feet, knocked the snow off his legs, and limped back toward the lights.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
The trees do need blood to grow and thrive, and men killing each other provides plenty of delicious blood to sap up. Mmm Yumm.
And the greenseers need blood sacrifices to perform big acts like the Hammer of the Waters...
We have heard several references to the aftermath of battles being a feast for crows... but what they don't tell us is that it's also a feast for weirwoods. Which fits, of course, as crows and weirwoods seem to go together.
Exactly. I have nothing else to add besides that. Carry on my friend.
It just occurred to me that we have no idea how the Faceless Men acquired the ability to wear faces in the first place. The first time Arya sees them, she calls them skins. This of course immediately makes me think of the Boltons, who were said to wear human skins as cloaks.
GRRM has written at least 2 other stories in which humans can wear skins to change their appearance. In one of them, the process similarly requires bleeding on the skin the first time it is worn. There is a woman named Grey Alys who has pale eyes, doesn't age, and has a closet full of skins. Sound familiar? So clearly this is a concept GRRM has been playing with for some time. But as it regards the Faceless Men - was the first of them able to do this? How else would he have been so successful in killing other slaves without being noticed? But where would he have learned it? So many questions...
Well, I haven't really looked at this before closely enough yet, but it seems to me that they use different methods.
The kindly man seems to wear something similar to a glamor when Arya first meets him. As it's Brynden's face, it's not one they have available in their storeroom. After all, he's in the cave beyond the Wall.
Jaqen also reminds me of a glamor, except it seems more "permanent" than what Mel does. Without bones etc her glamors gets weaker, and a sharp eye can start to look through them. And Arya certainly has sharp eyes, thanks to Syrio. Still, how he changes his face in front of her certainly reminds of changing the glamor on the spot, and he doesn't pull off a face or anything.
Then we have the other FMs; from what Arya describes, it sounds more like they only use normal mummer's tricks. False noses and the like, while not actually changing their entire face.
So thr question then becomes, did Arya really change her face into the Ugly Little Girl or not? I'm not sure. If her head would look smashed in, wouldn't people react with horror when seeing her? Or do they just change the features somewhat? I have to look more closely at that part as well. Ah, so many details to look into, and put together with other details somewhere in the story! It takes forever!
As for a similarity to the Boltons; I personally haven't really favored the Bolt-on idea, though never dismissed it outright. However, if that sort of thing is in his earlier works, it might very well be the case. Recently I wondered if there has ever been a female Bolton, as the Starks usually marries a daughter or more of the defeated rivals and enemies, but we don't hear of a Stark-Bolton union that I remember. But it is an interesting juxtaposition: skinchangers vs skinchangers, but in different ways.
“Father.” Bran’s voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. “Father, it’s me. It’s Bran. Brandon.” Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can’t. Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill up with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwood’s? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?
And now Theon:
The heart tree stood before him, a pale giant with a carved face and leaves like bloody hands. A thin film of ice covered the surface of the pool beneath the weirwood. Theon sank to his knees beside it. “Please,” he murmured through his broken teeth, “I never meant …” The words caught in his throat. “Save me,” he finally managed. “Give me …” What? Strength? Courage? Mercy? Snow fell around him, pale and silent, keeping its own counsel. The only sound was a faint soft sobbing. Jeyne, he thought. It is her, sobbing in her bridal bed. Who else could it be? Gods do not weep. Or do they? The sound was too painful to endure. Theon grabbed hold of a branch and pulled himself back to his feet, knocked the snow off his legs, and limped back toward the lights.
That is interesting! I did notice that on an earlier read, and again in a recent listening. I guess my question would be why Bran would be sobbing when Theon is in front of the tree. Seeing Theon again? See what has been done to him? That he can't help? That the Boltons hold Winterfell?
It also reminds me of this passage, though it might not be entirely relevant.
No banners flew above the blackened towers and ruined keeps of Harrenhal when Prince Daemon descended from the sky to take up the castle for his own. A few squatters had found shelter in the castle’s deep vaults and undercellars, but the sound of Caraxes’s wings sent them fleeing. When the last of them was gone, Daemon Targaryen walked the cavernous halls of Harren’s seat alone, with no companion but his dragon. Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon’s day say they bleed afresh every spring.
The Princess and The Queen
We don't hear of any other weirwood that "bleeds" every spring, so what is different about these wounds?
As for a similarity to the Boltons; I personally haven't really favored the Bolt-on idea, though never dismissed it outright. However, if that sort of thing is in his earlier works, it might very well be the case. Recently I wondered if there has ever been a female Bolton, as the Starks usually marries a daughter or more of the defeated rivals and enemies, but we don't hear of a Stark-Bolton union that I remember. But it is an interesting juxtaposition: skinchangers vs skinchangers, but in different ways.
In the other stories, the skin had to come from a skinchanger (which in both of those stories was not a warg but a traditional werewolf). The werewolf had to be skinned while in wolf form (in one of them it had to be alive throughout the skinning process), and the pelt/skin could then be worn by a regular human. They had to bleed on it the first time, but after that whenever they put it on they would change into the wolf instantaneously. I've had this crackpot theory for a while about why the FM wanted Arya, and it's related to these earlier stories. Here goes: If only faces from skinchangers are useful for the FM, and skinchangers are very rare... and Arya the skinchanger is actively recruited by Jaqen ... and she is supposed to become "no one"... Then will she have to give up her face as the last step of becoming a Faceless Man? What if all FM give up their face when joining the order, and thereafter can wear any face in the Hall but can never go back to their own. They are truly no one. And they are truly faceless.
Last Edit: Jun 9, 2019 23:00:55 GMT by Maester Sam
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
It also reminds me of this passage, though it might not be entirely relevant.
No banners flew above the blackened towers and ruined keeps of Harrenhal when Prince Daemon descended from the sky to take up the castle for his own. A few squatters had found shelter in the castle’s deep vaults and undercellars, but the sound of Caraxes’s wings sent them fleeing. When the last of them was gone, Daemon Targaryen walked the cavernous halls of Harren’s seat alone, with no companion but his dragon. Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon’s day say they bleed afresh every spring.
The Princess and The Queen
We don't hear of any other weirwood that "bleeds" every spring, so what is different about these wounds?
If I had to guess, I'd say he was using a Valyrian steel sword (he had Dark Sister, right?), and that's why the tree can't heal. The wounds are permanent. Maybe the VS is toxic to the weirwood somehow?
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
In the other stories, the skin had to come from a skinchanger (which in both of those stories was not a warg but a traditional werewolf). The werewolf had to be skinned while in wolf form (in one of them it had to be alive throughout the skinning process), and the pelt/skin could then be worn by a regular human. They had to bleed on it the first time, but after that whenever they put it on they would change into the wolf instantaneously. I've had this crackpot theory for a while about why the FM wanted Arya, and it's related to these earlier stories. Here goes: If only faces from skinchangers are useful for the FM, and skinchangers are very rare... and Arya the skinchanger is actively recruited by Jaqen ... and she is supposed to become "no one"... Then will she have to give up her face as the last step of becoming a Faceless Man? What if all FM give up their face when joining the order, and thereafter can wear any face in the Hall but can never go back to their own. They are truly no one. And they are truly faceless.
Interesting! I have wondered what the FM wants with Arya, or rather how they would like to use her. The abilities of the wandering FM she sees seems to vary much and more, and so naturally I question their ability as a whole. That only a few who are skinchangers would be able to really use their powers is the natural explanation, of course. But that doesn't really explain Jaqen, now does it...
Sidenote: I see that I wondered about female Boltons there, and there is one in F&B. Just had to mention it!
If I had to guess, I'd say he was using a Valyrian steel sword (he had Dark Sister, right?), and that's why the tree can't heal. The wounds are permanent. Maybe the VS is toxic to the weirwood somehow?
Ah, yes! Daemon did indeed carry Dark Sister! Could be the Valyrian steel. And if that has some negative effect on weirwoods (like wounds that doesn't heal) makes an interesting connection to the speculations both in books and by fans that the same steel would be great against the Others.