You nerds are overthinking this wall thing. I'm fairly certain George's inspiration for the Wall and the Dothraki come from the obvious Asian sources, and not because the outspokenly liberal GRRM is a crypto-Trumpist. Besides which you need to remember that when he started writing this story Mexico was still part of the Spanish empire and California was unincorporated territory.
I'm not saying it's intentionally pro-trump messaging, I'm saying they're plot points that have aged poorly in the era of Trump. Regardless of authorial intent, most fantasy narratives strike a reactionary tone, and I'm not sure ASOAIF will be any different.
Maybe this is what "a time for wolves" is all about?
I'm curious about this as well--as to whether or not the broad strokes of this ending might be an implication as to why "A Time for Wolves" was the alternate (and better, IMO) title GRRM was considering for the final volume.
I'm repeating what I've said elsewhere, but this is essentially an ending where the North has political sovereignty, the rest of Westeros is under Bran, and all of the individuals and Houses that wronged the Starks are dead--several of them being wiped out this season, in disasters that Bran should have theoretically been able to prevent.
You nerds are overthinking this wall thing. I'm fairly certain George's inspiration for the Wall and the Dothraki come from the obvious Asian sources, and not because the outspokenly liberal GRRM is a crypto-Trumpist. Besides which you need to remember that when he started writing this story Mexico was still part of the Spanish empire and California was unincorporated territory.
I'm not saying it's intentionally pro-trump messaging, I'm saying they're plot points that have aged poorly in the era of Trump. Regardless of authorial intent, most fantasy narratives strike a reactionary tone, and I'm not sure ASOAIF will be any different.
Romance, the mythos which fantasy is a modern expression of, always is Conservative. It tells the story of how the current powerful and their ideals became powerful.
Frankly though, this story is largely anti-conservative in terms of modern conservative politics. And by that I mean the common theme of Conservative politics which came out of the 1960s & 1970s during the last "Awakening" (a time of religious and cultural revolution, previous Awakenings: 1890s & 1900s, 1810s & 1820s, 1730s & 1740s) was what we'd call Red State America. And Red America's big overwhelming concern is the same as Star Trek: Voyager: How do we find a way Home? Home being the 1940s & 1950s as far as they're concerned, and some even push it to the 1870s & 1880s. And along the way home they'll point out hypocrites who get in their way. The closest thing to them in the books are Balon Greyjoy with his call to return to the "Old Way", and the High Sparrow with his desire to return to the fundamentals of the Faith of the Seven.
I can continue the political analysis, but I don't want to bore you guys.
Post by whitewolfstark on May 22, 2019 0:57:27 GMT
So Red America is simple: How do we find a way Home?
So what about "Blue State America" it's most common foe? Well, as my friend who converted me to his political theory said, they have the same end goal as Star Trek: The Next Generation. Because he used the 3 Next Generation Era Star Treks to denote the concerns of the "Three Awakenings" as he put it. Red America was Star Trek: Voyager. Blue America was Star Trek: The Next Generation. Those two alone making up about 40% of the population each (give or take) until recently (where their margins have started shrinking closer to 30% each as both have come up empty on "the way forward") The last kind of Awakening, which he called the "White Awakening" had the remaining 20% of the population, until recently when their numbers have begun to grow with a lot of ex-Red and ex-Blue leaving their respective sides. What the White Awakening wanted and saw the world was best explained through Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, but also something like Babylon 5. And as he put it the thesis statement of what each "Awakening" wants can be found in their final episode of each Star Trek season. And please note he was using Star Trek as an easy, concise, and accessible way to explain each Awakening Strain. And further, he calls them Red, White, and Blue, well largely Red and Blue named themselves, he called White to go along with the American Flag Colors motif that the other sides used to name themselves (Red, White, & Blue).
So in any case, what does Blue Awakening want? Well largely it wants acceptance from Authority, or even better yet to become the Authority which doles out acceptance. Open one's mind, and for a split fraction of a second accept the impossible as possible--expand your mind, and gain authority's (Q) approval for your actions as well as to be told what to do. In ASOIAF and GOT this is best embodied actually by Daenerys--especially the power fantasy aspect of it that one can ascend into being the authority that grants acceptance. As long as they're the unquestioned authority, everything's fine, peachy keen. Question their authority or gasp, even refuse to recognize it? Dracaerys. It's why Blue Culture folks now are starting to come out with think pieces about how Dany's turn is misogynist and the portrayal of Greyworm as a war criminal as racist. It's them trying to go Dracaerys on the show.
Well, what about White Awakening? Well the White Awakening is most like Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. As in it's anti-authoritarian, about a bunch of people who don't like working or living together but over time learning to adapt to their surroundings and work together to overthrow an unacceptable authority and rule themselves. Their "savior" who helps leads the way, then disappears when the time is right so as to not become a tyrant, maintaining the anti-authority values.
Each Star Trek has the other Awakenings present and presented in a negative light from that particular "Awakening's" perspective.
In Star Trek TNG for instance, the Federation is Blue, while the White Awakening is portrayed as The Borg, and the Red Awakening as various Klingons, Ferengi, Cardassians, and Romulans--who since the Blue Awakening and Red Awakening were on decent terms with one another in the 1980s, they're generally presented as being on okay if sometimes rocky terms with.
In Star Trek DS9, the Federation is White, while the Dominion is both Blue and Red. The Vorta of the Dominion being the Blue Awakening full stop. The Jem H'dar being the Red Awakening full stop. You also get the Red Awakening in the portrayal of Kai Wynn as the religious fundamentalist of Bajor, and the 90s imagination of the Alt-Right in the portrayal of Gul Dukat--which is why when Gul Dukat and Kai Wynn join forces with the Pa-wraiths at the end, you can see the White Awakening forseeing the alliance of what we'd call Trumpists today. You also see the emergence of Red Awakening types among former Federation members in terms of the Maqui. The Changelings, you might ask? Oh, they're the 1% (to borrow the term from Occupy & Anonymous--both of which are White Awakening in nature) who use the Red vs. Blue dynamic for their own purposes to divide and rule. The White Awakening is most concerned with knocking out the 1% above all else, and figure that we can go on with our lives and learn to live with one another once the 1% are taken out. One of the most blatant points it gets in terms of modern politics is the DS9 episodes covering "early 21st Century politics" in which it imagined a 2024 America which had continued to be ruled by a Blue-Red alliance, which leads to the "Bell Riots". Where you see that there's a wide wealth disparity between the rich and poor, the rich though are portrayed as being racially diverse with a Black and Asian member of the elite at the soiree Dax's character attends, aka Blue Culture's call for the elite to be more "diverse" won out, but as the episodes show, while there may be representatives of ethnic and racial minorities among the elite, the vast majority of the poor remain racial minorities who've been shoved into ghetto districts so the wealthy elite don't have to look at them anymore. Meanwhile the Blue elites hire Red Awakening police officers to keep the poor in line and within their ghettos. Interestingly enough, DS9 predicts the use of social media/the internet to disrupt this system working as the poor hack into the internet and record messages on what's essentially YouTube telling their plight and stories and sharing it out to the nation just as the more radical and violent among them attempt to violently overthrow the ghetto district organization middle managers. The response from the elite is to sic the Red Awakening Police force on them full stop, massacring thousands (innocents included) which coupled with all those viral YouTube videos turn the rest of the nation (what remains of the middle class) against the elites who then force the nation to enact reforms to address the problems they were kicking down the lane for so long, and the elite are forced to do so, thanks to the social media crusade changing hearts and minds.
In Star Trek Voyager, the Federation starts as Blue until the Maqui are brought back into the fold. Once the Maqui are brought back into the fold, the Federation becomes Red. The various species they meet in the Delta Quadrant are various Red Awakening depictions of Blue and White Awakenings. The Borg resume being the White Awakening, but there's two major species they meet which embodies the other two the majority of the time: and this time acquire a Borg Queen as how the Red Awakening "exposes" the hypocrisy of the White Awakening's anti-authoritarianism (see, you're not TRULY anti-authoritarian!), while Species 84702 who traverse fluidic space and have biological methods to resisting the Borg's attempts to "assimilate" them, are how the Red Awakening views the Blue Awakening. Generally anything more bio-related in Star Trek tends to be associated with Blue Culture (the equivalent of say hearing the codewords "Organic" and "All-Natural" and "No GMOs"), while the tech-related in Star Trek tends to be associated with White Culture (the equivalent of all the apps and smart technology which are being developed that disrupt established hierarchy systems like hotels, taxis, food service, etc.)
If Blue America has a "heartland" it's the Northeast. (think the former Union) If Red America has a "heartland" it's the Southeast. (think the former Confederacy) If White America has a "heartland" it's the West. (think the former unorganized/partially organized territories)
So having said all that, what's my political analysis of the ending of GOT? Well, it's clearly anti-Red America and anti-Blue America. Though it managed to go long enough of stringing Blue America along until the end to keep them invested. Both Red America and Blue America from what I can tell online are upset at the ending of GOT. Red America from what I can tell generally wanted Jon to take the Iron Throne and ideally marry Dany (even if they both ended up dead, at least their child could rule... and take Westeros back to the glorious tradition of Targaryen Exceptionalism--all right that last part is taken from my reading of the Jaehaerys chapters of Fire & Blood), but the constant hangup they seem to be stuck on is that "Jon's the RIGHTFUL King. They could have at least asked him to be King."
Meanwhile, as I mentioned above, Blue culture America is upset that Dany didn't get the throne, or more specifically that she was portrayed as "the Mad Queen" in the end that had to be taken out and put down like a rabid Bonapartist dog. Nevermind the fact that a rabid Bonapartist is exactly how a White Culture adherent sees Blue Culture sometimes.
What did we get? Well, we got the White Culture's answer to some respect as all previous Authority figures were taken down via a viral meme that Bran dropped on "Twitter" (Jon Snow's real parentage) which instead of unifying only divided Jon and Dany against one another. And in the end, the Starks are victorious. They realized by going home to Winterfell they could never truly go home again (back to the innocence of their lives under their parents), so they're definitely not Red Awakening. They're not interested in accepting someone else's authority (though of the three, Sansa is the most Blue Culture), but instead they adapt and disrupt systems of power so that authority becomes less centralized and more dispersed (it goes from an Absolute Monarch to an Elected Monarch).
Which means White Culture adherents (like myself) are generally fine with the ending even if we think it was just the Cliff Notes version of it, meanwhile you have Red Culture and Blue Culture fans (who apparently make up 60% of the fandom now, according to a poll) who are up in arms about this ending for different reasons.
And that's my political take. Take it or leave it as you will (I'm sure a lot of people won't like it, but I don't care), but it's how I see things.
Cannot believe they threw Bronn into the series finale. Wtf is up with D&D getting stuck on peripheral characters anyway? (Missandei, grey worm, Beric Dondarrion, fucking Edmure fucking Tully?!)
I can. To be fair I have always enjoyed Bronn as a character, but I admit his scene in Winterfell is silly. Still him being LP of the Reach is one of the less insane things in that finale. Just happy it isn't Grand Maester Sam.
It's one of the reasons George Washington was so popular a choice for President in the United States, well that and being a war hero, but a big selling point was the fact that he had no children of his own (he had adopted his wife's children). So ergot no threat of succession.
And considering we've gone from Inherited Primogeniture to Elected Monarchy, we've gone from your typical standard monarch to the Holy Roman Empire. Baby steps.
I knew about the Washington as King notion, not about having his own kids as a selling point. Interesting, not sure it would actually work but I like the notion.
No threat of succession from lineage but who takes over next. Reminds me of the Sandy Kings of Dorne in their earliest histories that had a system similar to this before they destroyed themselves.
They always loved reusing their favorite Hero Shots, to quote The Truman Show. Every time I see Arya on a boat like that throughout the seasons, I recall the scene in The Truman Show when Christoff calls getting a shot of Truman on the boat looking into the wind his "Hero Shot". I'm sure that's the industry term for it as well.
I just wish they had built up the Sailor Arya in the story. I can remember like 3 times she has shown interest in boats.
You forget that the man who's telling the story is an anti-authoritarian hippie who protested Vietnam. Having a strong ruler or a "good" ruler was never the answer to that mindset.
Indeed.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Had the same question... where the hell are the Dothraki (who seem to be immortal lmao) going to go now? Like, wouldn't they just go off into Westeros to sow some chaos??
Seriously the moment Dany dies its time to choose a new Khal and start the raping and pillaging of Westeros.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
They always loved reusing their favorite Hero Shots, to quote The Truman Show. Every time I see Arya on a boat like that throughout the seasons, I recall the scene in The Truman Show when Christoff calls getting a shot of Truman on the boat looking into the wind his "Hero Shot". I'm sure that's the industry term for it as well.
I just wish they had built up the Sailor Arya in the story. I can remember like 3 times she has shown interest in boats.
You forget that the man who's telling the story is an anti-authoritarian hippie who protested Vietnam. Having a strong ruler or a "good" ruler was never the answer to that mindset.
Indeed.
I think "Sailor" Arya is more a nod to both the past Stark attempt to sail West, as well as a nod to Fire & Blood where you had "Alys Westhill" Elissa Farman who in personality seems a lot like Arya. Well, that's me pulling things out of my ass. Now that I'm done with that, I'll just say that D&D just liked the Season 4 ending shot of Arya on a boat that they just wanted to reuse it for here IMHO.
I actually think the COTF taking over is a good thing, for Westeros--bring balance and harmony back to the world of man.
Had the same question... where the hell are the Dothraki (who seem to be immortal lmao) going to go now? Like, wouldn't they just go off into Westeros to sow some chaos??
Seriously the moment Dany dies its time to choose a new Khal and start the raping and pillaging of Westeros.
But don't Dothraki respect the person who kills the most powerful Khal? As in, while the Unsullied might be upset about Jon killing their Breaker of Chains, wouldn't the Dothraki by contrast just consider him the new boss? Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I read where Khal Drogo dies and his succession crisis.
Seriously the moment Dany dies its time to choose a new Khal and start the raping and pillaging of Westeros.
But don't Dothraki respect the person who kills the most powerful Khal? As in, while the Unsullied might be upset about Jon killing their Breaker of Chains, wouldn't the Dothraki by contrast just consider him the new boss? Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I read where Khal Drogo dies and his succession crisis.
Post by asharadaynedragonblood on May 22, 2019 11:47:54 GMT
Nothing changed. The Iron Throne is gone but the throne still exists. 2 Thrones in fact. They think they changed the system but they have not. The manipulating, scheming, ..will go on. Bran will not live forever. What do you think will happen if the Lords need to vote/elect a king? Murder, whispers...it goes on. Danys dream was to a system where the people could decide, not some high Lords. Sansa got herself be queen of the North. Imagine her children will be evil and arrogant. The people will still suffer.
Danys dream was crashed, the wheel never stopped. It still keeps spinning. The Lords who vote will still inherit their position from birth.
People still have no voices. It is really sad and tragic.
Sorry to spam up the thread with yet another post, but...
Am I totally off base here, or does the 3EC sigil on Brienne's new KG armor look like a variation of the sigil on the NK's armor?
Umm! It does look a bit alike, similar in some ways!
Perhaps the costume department was just trying to reuse stuff to save money, so they could pay for Jerome Flynn to come back and talk about the importance of rebuilding whore houses!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
But don't Dothraki respect the person who kills the most powerful Khal? As in, while the Unsullied might be upset about Jon killing their Breaker of Chains, wouldn't the Dothraki by contrast just consider him the new boss? Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I read where Khal Drogo dies and his succession crisis.
Absolutely! That is how it should work! If Jon would have played it correctly, he could have claimed the Dothraki! Of course, that wasn't a thought for d&d, shite hacks that they are!
Yes! This would have been much better than what we saw---or didn't see since we got a fade to black--- but this gives Jon some power. At least enough to get himself back to his northern troops, because it honestly makes no sense that the Unsullied just put Jon in prison! Nope, Grey Worm the Hateful would realistically just cut Jon's throat, since he was Dany's Master of War now! Also, just the idea that a man who helped kill the Master's of Astapor and Yunkai and Meereen is now happy to be a "Master" makes my teeth hurt. I know it's just a title, but...
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Nothing changed. The Iron Throne is gone but the throne still exists. 2 Thrones in fact. They think they changed the system but they have not. The manipulating, scheming, ..will go on. Bran will not live forever. What do you think will happen if the Lords need to vote/elect a king? Murder, whispers...it goes on. Danys dream was to a system where the people could decide, not some high Lords. Sansa got herself be queen of the North. Imagine her children will be evil and arrogant. The people will still suffer.
Danys dream was crashed, the wheel never stopped. It still keeps spinning. The Lords who vote will still inherit their position from birth.
People still have no voices. It is really sad and tragic.
Maybe in some way that futile path is what GRRM is writing about. I think the "break the wheel" thing only comes from the show, so that was d&d's creation to fook up (which they did) but perhaps this is GRRM's nod to cycles just repeating themselves, in spite of what human's do, it all just repeats. A little Wheel of Time thrown in as an homage!
This ending for Sansa so irritates me, as she is nothing but Cersei 2.0, scheming to become queen, even at the expense of her own family. Right down to her shite crown and crappy coronation, it screams Cersei. And the idiocy of Sansa saying that the north is not ready to bed the knee again, and then a room full of northener's fooking bend the knee to her... makes my head hurt!!! Fook!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Nothing changed. The Iron Throne is gone but the throne still exists. 2 Thrones in fact. They think they changed the system but they have not. The manipulating, scheming, ..will go on. Bran will not live forever. What do you think will happen if the Lords need to vote/elect a king? Murder, whispers...it goes on. Danys dream was to a system where the people could decide, not some high Lords. Sansa got herself be queen of the North. Imagine her children will be evil and arrogant. The people will still suffer.
Danys dream was crashed, the wheel never stopped. It still keeps spinning. The Lords who vote will still inherit their position from birth.
People still have no voices. It is really sad and tragic.
Maybe in some way that futile path is what GRRM is writing about. I think the "break the wheel" thing only comes from the show, so that was d&d's creation to fook up (which they did) but perhaps this is GRRM's nod to cycles just repeating themselves, in spite of what human's do, it all just repeats. A little Wheel of Time thrown in as an homage!
This ending for Sansa so irritates me, as she is nothing but Cersei 2.0, scheming to become queen, even at the expense of your own family. Right down to her shite crown and crappy coronation, it screams Cersei. And the idiocy of Sansa saying that the north is not ready to bend the knee again, and then a room full of northener's fooking bend the knee to her... makes my head hurt!!! Fook!
Last Edit: May 22, 2019 18:40:34 GMT by stdaga: spelling ... yikes!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.