I do think Faceless Men are connected to Old Gods and their gift to masters could be prophetic ability given to Daenys the Dreamer if the first Faceless Men was indeed a wealthy man from Valyria like Aenar the Exile... There could be a connection to both Dragons and Old Gods with Faceless Men or Old Gods could be Gods of Valyria too, they named their dragons after them and maybe there was dragons beyond counting once? But why would a family sabotage their own empire? But we have Aegon I attacking Volantis when they tried to form their empire back
Wraith thank you for joining the discussion! Do you know if Old Nan vision is before/after the pregnant woman vision? Is it possible Dunk (and Egg?) visited the North when Aegor was sent to the Wall?
I think you mean Aemon, not Aegor. And that said, you're missing the fact that the next Dunk & Egg story is supposed to be "The She-Wolves of Winterfell" (Which was its working title, not official). Preston Jacobs actually took a look at the family tree, read some SSMs where GRRM spoke about it, and put together what he thinks the likely plot of the story is here:
Wraith thank you for joining the discussion! Do you know if Old Nan vision is before/after the pregnant woman vision? Is it possible Dunk (and Egg?) visited the North when Aegor was sent to the Wall?
I think you mean Aemon, not Aegor. And that said, you're missing the fact that the next Dunk & Egg story is supposed to be "The She-Wolves of Winterfell" (Which was its working title, not official). Preston Jacobs actually took a look at the family tree, read some SSMs where GRRM spoke about it, and put together what he thinks the likely plot of the story is here:
Love Preston! I was actually thinking if it is possible Dunk was part of the guard that escorted Aegor to the Wall? Where/when he will be saved? How did he had friends in the North? Who supported the Blackfyres in the North?
Well, Aegor Rivers, Bittersteal, was tried and sent to the wall. He just never made it there.
The Second Blackfyre Rebellion proved a debacle, but that was not always to be the case. In 219 AC, Haegon Blackfyre and Bittersteel launched the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Of the deeds done then, both good and ill—of the leadership of Maekar, the actions of Aerion Brightflame, the courage of Maekar's youngest son, and the second duel between Bloodraven and Bittersteel—we know well. The pretender Haegon I Blackfyre died in the aftermath of battle, slain treacherously after he had given up his sword, but Ser Aegor Rivers, Bittersteel, was taken alive and returned to the Red Keep in chains. Many still insist that if he had been put to the sword then and there, as Prince Aerion and Bloodraven urged, it might have meant an early end to the Blackfyre ambitions.
But that was not to be. Though Bittersteel was tried and found guilty of high treason, King Aerys spared his life, instead commanding that he be sent to the Wall to live out his days as a man of the Night's Watch. That proved a foolish mercy, for the Blackfyres still had many friends at court, some of them only too willing to play the informer. The ship carrying Bittersteel and a dozen other captives was taken in the narrow sea on the way to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, and Aegor Rivers was freed and returned to the Golden Company. Before the year was out, he crowned Haegon's eldest son as King Daemon III Blackfyre in Tyrosh, and resumed his plotting against the king who had spared him. TWOIAF-The Targaryen Kings: Aerys I
Perhaps it would not have mattered who escorted Aegor to the wall, he would have been freed anyway, but is what happened to him the reason that Duncan was sent with Bloodraven when it was his time to go to the wall, to make sure there was not another escape? Duncan could not have served in this role as Kingsguard until Egg's coronation. Both Bittersteel and Bloodraven were sent to the wall by ship. I can hardly imagine how their feud would have continued if they both had been on the wall. It would be fun to read about, however!
It does seem like Duncan the Tall's visit to Winterfell was earlier in his life, during his travels about with Egg, well before his bald little Egg became Aegon V. It's always been interesting to me that young Egg grew up to be the king burned down a castle in his attempt to bring dragons back into the world, killing himself and many of his family at the same time, as well as become a king that his Lords had several conflicts with over the years.
The most outspoken of his foes went so far as to denounce Aegon V as a "bloodyhanded tyrant intent on depriving us of our gods-given rights and liberties." TWOIAF-The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V
Not to completely change subjects but I do see some similarities between Ned Stark and Bittersteel. Both started rebellions against the reigning dynasty, both were defeated and captured (although Ned wasn't in battle), imprisoned and sent to the wall, and neither made it. Ned died on the steps of the Sept of Baelor and was going to be escorted by land to the wall, while Bittersteel was sent by sea and escaped to rally yet another Blackfyre rebellion. But both ended up heads on pikes, one by choice, one not by choice. There is power in the bones, and Aegor's gold plated skull still is carried before the Golden Company. Ned's skull is missing, assuming it's his actual skull and bones that Catelyn looked at, but I think there is something very important in Ned's bones. This was interesting for me, since I tend to associate the Stark's more with the Blackwoods (the old gods and the connection to the wolfswood) and not the Bracken's, but on a few points, Ned associates more with Bittersteel, a Bracken bastard.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Well, Aegor Rivers, Bittersteal, was tried and sent to the wall. He just never made it there.
The Second Blackfyre Rebellion proved a debacle, but that was not always to be the case. In 219 AC, Haegon Blackfyre and Bittersteel launched the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Of the deeds done then, both good and ill—of the leadership of Maekar, the actions of Aerion Brightflame, the courage of Maekar's youngest son, and the second duel between Bloodraven and Bittersteel—we know well. The pretender Haegon I Blackfyre died in the aftermath of battle, slain treacherously after he had given up his sword, but Ser Aegor Rivers, Bittersteel, was taken alive and returned to the Red Keep in chains. Many still insist that if he had been put to the sword then and there, as Prince Aerion and Bloodraven urged, it might have meant an early end to the Blackfyre ambitions.
But that was not to be. Though Bittersteel was tried and found guilty of high treason, King Aerys spared his life, instead commanding that he be sent to the Wall to live out his days as a man of the Night's Watch. That proved a foolish mercy, for the Blackfyres still had many friends at court, some of them only too willing to play the informer. The ship carrying Bittersteel and a dozen other captives was taken in the narrow sea on the way to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, and Aegor Rivers was freed and returned to the Golden Company. Before the year was out, he crowned Haegon's eldest son as King Daemon III Blackfyre in Tyrosh, and resumed his plotting against the king who had spared him. TWOIAF-The Targaryen Kings: Aerys I
Perhaps it would not have mattered who escorted Aegor to the wall, he would have been freed anyway, but is what happened to him the reason that Duncan was sent with Bloodraven when it was his time to go to the wall, to make sure there was not another escape? Duncan could not have served in this role as Kingsguard until Egg's coronation. Both Bittersteel and Bloodraven were sent to the wall by ship. I can hardly imagine how their feud would have continued if they both had been on the wall. It would be fun to read about, however!
It does seem like Duncan the Tall's visit to Winterfell was earlier in his life, during his travels about with Egg, well before his bald little Egg became Aegon V. It's always been interesting to me that young Egg grew up to be the king burned down a castle in his attempt to bring dragons back into the world, killing himself and many of his family at the same time, as well as become a king that his Lords had several conflicts with over the years.
The most outspoken of his foes went so far as to denounce Aegon V as a "bloodyhanded tyrant intent on depriving us of our gods-given rights and liberties." TWOIAF-The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V
Not to completely change subjects but I do see some similarities between Ned Stark and Bittersteel. Both started rebellions against the reigning dynasty, both were defeated and captured (although Ned wasn't in battle), imprisoned and sent to the wall, and neither made it. Ned died on the steps of the Sept of Baelor and was going to be escorted by land to the wall, while Bittersteel was sent by sea and escaped to rally yet another Blackfyre rebellion. But both ended up heads on pikes, one by choice, one not by choice. There is power in the bones, and Aegor's gold plated skull still is carried before the Golden Company. Ned's skull is missing, assuming it's his actual skull and bones that Catelyn looked at, but I think there is something very important in Ned's bones. This was interesting for me, since I tend to associate the Stark's more with the Blackwoods (the old gods and the connection to the wolfswood) and not the Bracken's, but on a few points, Ned associates more with Bittersteel, a Bracken bastard.
The reason Dunk & Egg visited North is why I asked if Dunk accompany Bittersteel but maybe they went to North after Greyjoy sacked the North to show the Crown still cares about their people (lol what a fucking lie Brynden Blackwood doesn't give two shits!)
Ned Stark is more like Bracken because Brackens are better.
@waith i think Rhaella might get rid of them because she hated they forced her to marry Aerys due to some Wood's Witch's words. And Rhaella only had one daughter, Shaena, other babies were boys and died after their births so Pycelle isn't a suspect here.
Mayhaps but I have never read anything about Rhaelle hating prophecy. Hating her marriage of course is understandable.
This does make me think of people with streaks in their hair. Does Jaqen H-ghar fit into this category, with his red and white hair. And is that real or dyed? And does it matter if it's a mask?
I don't think so. It was clearly half and half, not streaked. As for dye who can say. I know dyed hair is usually a Tyroshi trait. I don't recall it being a Lorathi one.
I do think Faceless Men are connected to Old Gods and their gift to masters could be prophetic ability given to Daenys the Dreamer if the first Faceless Men was indeed a wealthy man from Valyria like Aenar the Exile... There could be a connection to both Dragons and Old Gods with Faceless Men or Old Gods could be Gods of Valyria too, they named their dragons after them and maybe there was dragons beyond counting once? But why would a family sabotage their own empire? But we have Aegon I attacking Volantis when they tried to form their empire back
While I certainly think the Faceless Men had a hand in the fall of Valyria I don't see a connection to the Old Gods. What made to think this?
Also I find two links between Westeros and Essos more interesting.
One is a plausible link between the Faceless Men and the Boltons. The whole flaying to wear the skins of their enemies could have been form of magic similar to that of the Faceless men. Also Bolton land is right across from Braavos.
The second is a plausible connection with the Moonsingers of Braavos with Val and Dalla of the Free Folk. They seem rather educated for Wildlings and Val in particular has a connection with white and the moon. Also her eyes change color at one point so that is something to keep an eye on.
The reason Dunk & Egg visited North is why I asked if Dunk accompany Bittersteel but maybe they went to North after Greyjoy sacked the North to show the Crown still cares about their people (lol what a fucking lie Brynden Blackwood doesn't give two shits!)
I don't think Dunk accompanied Bittersteel. We know he did for Bloodraven but that was years later.
Bloodraven was focused on the Blackfyre threat instead of the Greyjoys and expected the Wardens of the North and West to do their jobs.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
The reason Dunk & Egg visited North is why I asked if Dunk accompany Bittersteel but maybe they went to North after Greyjoy sacked the North to show the Crown still cares about their people (lol what a fucking lie Brynden Blackwood doesn't give two shits!)
The plan to travel north to Winterfell was because Lord Beron Stark was looking for men to fight invading Iron Born, and Dunk needed a job. This would have been much earlier than Bittersteel's exile. However, in the Mystery Knight, Bloodraven does become aware of Dunk the Lunk and his connection to Egg, the young Targaryen princeling. So, perhaps when ever Dunk and Egg finally made it to Winterfell, that Bloodraven had some sort of part to play. Until we get that book, and we might not, it's hard to say.
I would say that until Egg was crowned and Dunk made a knight of the kingsguard, then nothing Dunk did would have been official crown policy.
Ned Stark is more like Bracken because Brackens are better.
Ha! I'm not sure the Bracken's are better. They are interesting, however, with their red stallion and how it might tie to other red stallion imagery in the story. Drogo, Lord Dustin, Tyrion, Ramsay. There is plenty of red horses, but red stallions seem to be connected to these men. I also wonder about the horse that Ned was riding when Jaime's men attacked him in the streets, the horse that fell and broke his leg.
I do find the Blackwood/Bracken feud interesting. The Blackwoods are said to have been from the north originally and then exiled to the Riverlands by the Stark's and this seems to be the start of their feud with the Bracken's, who are connected to the Red Fork. I am wondering how much truth there is to this, though. We have the Stark's feuding with the Red King's, the Bolton's of the Dread Fort. Domeric Bolton was sent to the Redfort's in the Vale to train at Castle Redfort. There is something interesting about the Redfort, Red Fork, and the Red King's in the Dread Fort (which rhymes with Red Fort and sounds a lot like Red Fork). I am wondering how the Bolton's, Bracken's and the Redfort's might be connected.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I don't think so. It was clearly half and half, not streaked. As for dye who can say. I know dyed hair is usually a Tyroshi trait. I don't recall it being a Lorathi one.
I don't know much about Lorath or it's people but what I read doesn't give me any indication that red and white are important, yet GRRM specifically chose this color combination for Jaqen's hair. That seems important. Red and white are the colors associated with the weirwoods. Hair dye does seem to be associated with Tyrosh, but do we ever hear of red. Blue and green are the colors that stick in my memory. And yes, it's not streaked, so that is a difference from Elaena or Darkstar's hair.
While I certainly think the Faceless Men had a hand in the fall of Valyria I don't see a connection to the Old Gods. What made to think this?
I'm butting in on this question, since I have been thinking of it. First, I will say at times I am not sure the "old gods" are actually associated with the weirwoods, but over the years, they have been packaged together. But the faces in the weirwoods (and we do see faces carved in other types of tree's as well) are what makes me think of a connection to the Faceless Men. Or the theory that the faces on the weirwoods change depending on who might be watching from them, and if the faces do change in this way, it could be a nod to the Faceless Men, who also change their faces at times of need.
I think the only weirwood face that we look at more than once in any great detail is the weirwood in Winterfell, from Cat's POV and then later from Theon/Reek's POV. The descriptions seem different, making me think the face has changed in some way, however this might come down to POV and narrator perception.
Not related to the weirwoods, but another religion of Westeros that I see some connections between is the Faceless Men and their "death" worship in regards to the Stranger and the Faith of the Seven. The Stranger connects to the Other's to me. Sometimes I think everything can be connected, depending on how you want to look at it.
One is a plausible link between the Faceless Men and the Boltons. The whole flaying to wear the skins of their enemies could have been form of magic similar to that of the Faceless men. Also Bolton land is right across from Braavos.
The second is a plausible connection with the Moonsingers of Braavos with Val and Dalla of the Free Folk. They seem rather educated for Wildlings and Val in particular has a connection with white and the moon. Also her eyes change color at one point so that is something to keep an eye on.
Yes, the Bolton's and the wearing the skins of their enemies could connect to the Faceless Men, especially if the Bolt On Theory pans out. But the Bolton's wearing the skin's of their Stark enemies reminds me more of people who wear the skin's of animals. No magic involved, but it's used as a means of warmth or domination, just the Bolton's saying that the Stark's are little more than animals.
I have wondered if the Moonsingers are the reason the Red Comet returns. They sing/pray for it and watch for it! Their temple in Braavos is snow white and the comet is blood red! But I do like this thought of the priestess' of the Moonsinger's possibly being connected to Val or Dalla. It seems like they belong to some kind of "sisterhood" since I doubt they are blood sisters.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Wraith I used to think HoBaW is connected to Old Gods due to its similarities to Bloodraven's cave and my pet theory that Titan of Braavos is actually The Last Hero and he come to Braavos to search for the Children of the Forest. Love the connection between Val, Dalla and the Moonsingers.
stdaga I looove Brackens and I am extremely biased lol, but I do think they might have Northern roots too maybe with House Ryswell, and Ryder before them. I think Houses like Bracken, Ryswell, etc are connected to First King/Garth Greenhand, also to Dothraki, they are deeply connected to Earth and dislike the sea, with Ironborn houses descending from the Merling King and hating the agriculture. Maybe there is a rivalry between the two? I think Disputed Lands have a theory about them being brothers, maybe there was a Elenei/Magical Woman figure tied to them, and tied to North and that's why Free Folk are matrilineal? Garth's descendants seem to be matrilineal too.
I looove Brackens and I am extremely biased lol, but I do think they might have Northern roots too maybe with House Ryswell, and Ryder before them. I think Houses like Bracken, Ryswell, etc are connected to First King/Garth Greenhand, also to Dothraki, they are deeply connected to Earth and dislike the sea, with Ironborn houses descending from the Merling King and hating the agriculture. Maybe there is a rivalry between the two? I think Disputed Lands have a theory about them being brothers, maybe there was a Elenei/Magical Woman figure tied to them, and tied to North and that's why Free Folk are matrilineal? Garth's descendants seem to be matrilineal too.
I would agree on the horse link between Bracken and Ryswell, and probably House Ryder, too. Ryswell and Ryder are very similar sounding, so it would make sense if Ryswell was perhaps a cadet branch of Ryder, or vice versa. Maybe these horse people do fit to the Dothraki, but what do you see in Garth Greenhand that links back to horses or horseriders?
If the Bracken's come from House Ryder which was a house in the north, and the Blackwood's were another northern house that migrated or was banished south, then this feud might be as old as the world, honestly. It seems like the Bracken's and Blackwoods just can't stop fighting with each other.
I am actually toying with the idea of the Iron Born being connected to the Andal's, since the Andal's felt like the weirwoods were "demons" and the Grey King of Iron Born legend is said to have carved up the "demon tree Ygg" to make into longboats. How powerful might a weirwood longboat be? Certainly there are religious differences between the Iron Born and the Andal's, but I think the Iron Born are probably from the early Andal migration, where as the people we think of as Andal's were at the end of the period of Andal invasion. This early Andal separation and migration might even have been religious based. The Andal's attacked the north by sea on the east coast, so I think it fit's if they are still attacking the north (and the Westerlands and Reach) from the West.
Are the Free Folk matrilineal? Maybe some but it doesn't seem like all of them are. We have an example of the Thenn's following patrilineal inheritance, unless we find out that Siggorn's mother was both Styr's wife and sister. And no one points the incest finger at the Thenn's.
I think some of Garth Greenhand's children follow matrilineal decent but some follow patrilineal as well. It's a mix of both, but then if you are the child of a god, it might not matter if you are a man or woman. You are a demi-god, and therefore important.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I looove Brackens and I am extremely biased lol, but I do think they might have Northern roots too maybe with House Ryswell, and Ryder before them. I think Houses like Bracken, Ryswell, etc are connected to First King/Garth Greenhand, also to Dothraki, they are deeply connected to Earth and dislike the sea, with Ironborn houses descending from the Merling King and hating the agriculture. Maybe there is a rivalry between the two? I think Disputed Lands have a theory about them being brothers, maybe there was a Elenei/Magical Woman figure tied to them, and tied to North and that's why Free Folk are matrilineal? Garth's descendants seem to be matrilineal too.
I would agree on the horse link between Bracken and Ryswell, and probably House Ryder, too. Ryswell and Ryder are very similar sounding, so it would make sense if Ryswell was perhaps a cadet branch of Ryder, or vice versa. Maybe these horse people do fit to the Dothraki, but what do you see in Garth Greenhand that links back to horses or horseriders?
If the Bracken's come from House Ryder which was a house in the north, and the Blackwood's were another northern house that migrated or was banished south, then this feud might be as old as the world, honestly. It seems like the Bracken's and Blackwoods just can't stop fighting with each other.
I am actually toying with the idea of the Iron Born being connected to the Andal's, since the Andal's felt like the weirwoods were "demons" and the Grey King of Iron Born legend is said to have carved up the "demon tree Ygg" to make into longboats. How powerful might a weirwood longboat be? Certainly there are religious differences between the Iron Born and the Andal's, but I think the Iron Born are probably from the early Andal migration, where as the people we think of as Andal's were at the end of the period of Andal invasion. This early Andal separation and migration might even have been religious based. The Andal's attacked the north by sea on the east coast, so I think it fit's if they are still attacking the north (and the Westerlands and Reach) from the West.
Are the Free Folk matrilineal? Maybe some but it doesn't seem like all of them are. We have an example of the Thenn's following patrilineal inheritance, unless we find out that Siggorn's mother was both Styr's wife and sister. And no one points the incest finger at the Thenn's.
I think some of Garth Greenhand's children follow matrilineal decent but some follow patrilineal as well. It's a mix of both, but then if you are the child of a god, it might not matter if you are a man or woman. You are a demi-god, and therefore important.
I think Grey King of the Ironborn is the Merling King and the Pearl Emperor of Yi Ti, maybe even Hooded Wayferer and the Shrouded Lord figure. With Garth as the First King of the First Men who brought agriculture and horses with him to Westeros while his brother followed him to Westeros through the sea. You're right not all of Garth's children would be matrilineal, but those who are would be House Florent, Ball, Peake, Rowan, Beesbury, Crane and Tarly. I am including Tarly because both brothers had relationship with the same woman so the child she had would rule after brothers because he was the son of the Wood's Witch. There is a Free Folk equal to Tarly brothers, Harle the Handsome and Harle the Hunter, they are brothers and has children with the same woman and their children are considered cousins. - even House Bracken could be matrilineal since horses are matrilineal, maybe Dayne's too since Clarisse Dayne ruled Starfall during Maegor's reign.
elifsu , BTW, what do you mean by "Disputed Lands have a theory"? Is that a board?
ETA: Never mind. It's a YouTube channel. I don't think I have ever heard of it or watched anything but I will have to check some of it out.
I found her channel because I was searching about the Grey King, I have wrote about Empire of Dawn and I now believe Pearl Emperor was Grey King. I am less sure about others although I do believe Jade Emperor is connected to the Citadel and House High Tower while Tourmaline Emperor is tied to the Faith. No definite idea about others but you may read my post about it.
I found her channel because I was searching about the Grey King, I have wrote about Empire of Dawn and I now believe Pearl Emperor was Grey King. I am less sure about others although I do believe Jade Emperor is connected to the Citadel and House High Tower while Tourmaline Emperor is tied to the Faith. No definite idea about others but you may read my post about it.
I watched a couple of the shorter video's, but not the one you are talking about I don't think. I struggle with longer video's over about 25 minutes, my attention span is shite!
Why do you tie Tourmaline to the Faith? While they can be multicolored, they can also be black or brown. I have always been intrigued by Dany's dreams of the hall of kings she dreams of, where we get the line, "their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade". I usually think of tourmaline as pinkish but that isn't standard by any means. A couple years ago I was looking into tourmaline and found it interesting that it was listed as a pyroelectic gemstone. It both can attract and repeal hot ashes. It was at one time called Ceylonese magnet and lapis electricus, which makes me think that shade of tourmaline was blue in color. Ashes are certainly something I associate with fire, and fire with Targaryen's. The mineral composition of the stones is quite interesting, but I don't know if GRRM gave that much though 20+ years ago when he was writing Game? Maybe all he was looking at was color?
I guess I think of the faith as being associated with clear crystals that sparkle different colors of light, depending on lighting and cut of the stone, more like the blade of the Other's or the wall. All that "alive with light" business!
Last Edit: Aug 12, 2019 15:50:01 GMT by stdaga: spelling ... yikes!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
I found her channel because I was searching about the Grey King, I have wrote about Empire of Dawn and I now believe Pearl Emperor was Grey King. I am less sure about others although I do believe Jade Emperor is connected to the Citadel and House High Tower while Tourmaline Emperor is tied to the Faith. No definite idea about others but you may read my post about it.
I watched a couple of the shorter video's, but not the one you are talking about I don't think. I struggle with longer video's over about 25 minutes, my attention span is shite!
Why do you tie Tourmaline to the Faith? While they can be multicolored, they can also be black or brown. I have always been intrigued by Dany's dreams of the hall of kings she dreams of, where we get the line, "their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade". I usually think of tourmaline as pinkish but that isn't standard by any means. A couple years ago I was looking into tourmaline and found it interesting that it was listed as a pyroelectic gemstone. It both can attract and repeal hot ashes. It was at one time called Ceylonese magnet and lapis electricus, which makes me think that shade of tourmaline was blue in color. Ashes are certainly something I associate with fire, and fire with Targaryen's. The mineral composition of the stones is quite interesting, but I don't know if GRRM gave that much though 20+ years ago when he was writing Game? Maybe all he was looking at was color?
I guess I think of the faith as being associated with clear crystals that sparkle different colors of light, depending on lighting and cut of the stone, more like the blade of the Other's or the wall. All that "alive with light" business!
You're right, honestly Tourmaline confuses me and I have no fixed idea about it or others - although the easiest way would be connecting the gemstone to Tourmaline Brotherhood of Qarth, instead of anything Westerosi, I didn't know about electric part, was it you who wrote about Renly's connection to bronze, electricity and energy? Maybe there is a Tourmaline = Amber connection as well, as amber (kehribar) is also related to electricity.