The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens
Oct 5, 2019 10:23:20 GMT
Wraith, danl, and 1 more like this
Post by shymaid on Oct 5, 2019 10:23:20 GMT
"I know about the promise," insisted the girl. "Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!"
Davos III, Dance
This paragraph, combined with Lord Wyman's later fond remembrance of the moment and his deal with Davos to fetch him Rickon, forms the basis of many readers belief of the Manderlys loyalty to the Starks. Others are more sceptical, while some might share my camp which lies somewhere in between. Personally I believe the Manderlys for the most part, though I do think they might be up to their old tricks to gain the majority of the power for their own house. As in, I doubt they would go into open rebellion against the Starks - holy vows and all that, but some of the lords might try to make marriages and land grabs etc to make their house stronger, perhaps even usurp the power of Winterfell through marriage. Or by being the true power behind the wolves, as might be the plan with Rickon. There certainly are things and scenes in the main books to scrutinize and question with this perspective.
However, that is not the scope of this thread. Here I want to see if we can find anything of interest related to this in Fire and Blood. And indeed I think we can!
Warning: as I haven't had the time to note down every time the Manderlys appear in F&B, this post might be subject to change as I find them.
----------------------------
There isn't that much in the first chapters that relates to the first years and decades after the Conquest.
While no mention of the Manderlys per se, Aegon I came to visit, as he held court there three times. A record number in the North, as he did the same in Barrowton twice and once at Winterfell. Interestingly enough, this comes in the paragraph before we get the purported reason for Aegon I's vast travels: "It is better to forestall rebellions than to put them down."
Considering all his travels, it appears that even if there weren't any outright uprisings, not all were content with becoming the United Kingdoms of Westeros under Targaryen rule; including the North. (No, I'm not counting Dorne in this, as they had not surrendered.) Further, if there were any stirrings in the North which the Starks had a part in, they kept their hands clean enough not to warrant a visit from the Dragon; instead they might have used White Harbor and Barrowton instead. And so involved the Manderlys. If this was the case, it seems like it was not enough to mention them by name, but it would indicate a loyalty to the Starks and the freedom and self determination of the North.
We hear of no participation when shit started to hit the fan when Aegon died. While there were no rebellions in the north, I do wonder what the Manderlys thought of Maegor's war against the Faith, particularly the Stars and the Swords, as they are staunch followers of the Seven. It doesn't appear like they spoke against Maegor, it is total radio silence during this time; but the Osgreys lost lands and titles for speaking against Maegor, being demoted to mere landed knights. As we see no evidence of anything happening to the Manderlys, I will take that as them holding their tongues. Publicly.
The Starks were suspected of supporting Aegon the Uncrowned if he could win any victories, and most likely the Manderlys would follow here as well.
The Starks travelled south to attend the marriage of Dowager Queen Alyssa to Lord Baratheon with companions, but none of them is named; so we don't know if the Manderlys had dealings with Jaehearys and/or Alysanne before the interesting progress north years later. At which time they enter the stage briefly, and not with much to note.
The first interesting part they play comes with the Dance:
Then on Jacaerys soared, north across the Fingers and the waters of the Bite. He lighted briefly on Sisterton, where Lord Borrell and Lord Sunderland did obeisance to him and pledged him the support of the Three Sisters, then flew on to White Harbor, where Lord Desmond Manderly met with him in his Merman's Court.
Here the prince faced a shrewder bargainer. “White Harbor is not unsympathetic to your mother's plight,” Manderly declared. “Mine own forebears were despoiled of their birthrigth when our enemies drove us into exile on these cold northern shores. When the Old King visited us so long ago, he spoke of the wrong that had been done to us and promised to make redress. In pledge of that, His Grace offered the hand of his daugther, Princess Viserra to my great-grandsire, that our two houses might be made as one, but the girl died and the promise was forgotten.”
Prince Jacaerys knew what was being asked of him. Before he left White Harbor a compact was drawn up and signed, by the terms of which Lord Manderly's youngest daugther would be wed to the prince's brother Joffrey once the war was over.
A Son for a Son
Here the prince faced a shrewder bargainer. “White Harbor is not unsympathetic to your mother's plight,” Manderly declared. “Mine own forebears were despoiled of their birthrigth when our enemies drove us into exile on these cold northern shores. When the Old King visited us so long ago, he spoke of the wrong that had been done to us and promised to make redress. In pledge of that, His Grace offered the hand of his daugther, Princess Viserra to my great-grandsire, that our two houses might be made as one, but the girl died and the promise was forgotten.”
Prince Jacaerys knew what was being asked of him. Before he left White Harbor a compact was drawn up and signed, by the terms of which Lord Manderly's youngest daugther would be wed to the prince's brother Joffrey once the war was over.
A Son for a Son
We already knew they had not forgotten the lands they were driven out of, but here it sounds like they still bear a grievance for the lost lands. Indeed, Lord Desmond sounds like he wants the lands and castle back after a thousand years! Perhaps not so surprising if they still uphold the vow made shortly after, but a thousand years is a long time!
Even more telling is when we fact check Lord Desmond's claims. First, let's take a look at what we are told of the promised princess that was never given:
In 86 AC, Queen Alysanne announced the betrothal of her daughter Viserra, fifteen years of age, to Theomore Manderly, the fierce old Lord of White Harbor. The marriage would do much to tie the realm together by uniting one of the great houses of the North to the Iron Throne, the king declared. Lord Theomore had won great renown as a warrior in his youth, and had proved himself a canny lord under whose rule White Harbor had prospered greatly. Queen Alysanne was very fond of him as well, remembering the warm welcome he had given her during her first visit to the North.
The Long Reign – Jaehaerys and Alysanne: Policy, Progeny, and Pain
The Long Reign – Jaehaerys and Alysanne: Policy, Progeny, and Pain
Of course there would have had to be negotiations taking place, but we are not told where or what they contained. We get no evidence that Jaehaerys went to White Harbor, nor that Theomore came to King's Landing. It's possible their old lands came up, though I would not really think so as their power balance is quite unequal. While a rich and powerful house and some courtly marriages having been made, I doubt they were enough to be able to breach this topic without seeming grasping.
Further, the only time we get Jaehaerys even close to White Harbor, is during the planning of the progress north. However, Jaehaerys was delayed, so Alysanne went alone with their traveling court. Starting at White Harbor, a few marriages were made, but nothing is said of their old lands in the Reach coming up. She then went to Winterfell and the Wall before she met up with Jaehearys at Winterfell, six months after her own departure. There is no mention of him going to White Harbor - in fact it is not mentioned he went anywhere else, as there was "not much more to say" after dealing with the New Gift for the Watch.
In short, we have no evidence to back up Lord Desmond's claim here regarding their own lands. However, I definitely get the feeling they were trying to get a foot in with the new power in the land, and it seems like they had "southron ambitions. This might not be the case for every lord, perhaps Lord Desmond was the first.
I see it as possible that he breached the subject as the threat of Targaryen warring against Targaryen loomed close, otherwise he would not have done so. It is not a stretch to think the Manderlys could anticipate which Reach houses would side with which Targaryen side, and so anticipate any potential weakening that might make it possible for them to get their lands back. Rhaenyra needed his support more than he needed to support her.
It is interesting in itself that Jace sought out the Manderlys directly, and even before the Starks! Speaks of the power they wielded, and that they had made themselves known to the Targaryens. It also might say something for the relationship between the Targaryens and the Starks. The North has long been a land apart, at least from the Andal overtake of the south. As they also were the only region yielding after days of negotiation, their deal with the Targaryens might be somewhat different than the other five. Seriously, days of negotiating when there might be little reason to negotiate at all with dragons in play. Aegon could have just roasted the northern army and taken the north if he wanted. Or forced the issue after the first day.
While it doesn't come up in F&B I, we have been told that the New Gift rubbed the Starks AND other houses the wrong way, so it might be that the Targaryens found the Manderlys the house most open to them; the betrothal between Viserra and Theomore could indicate this: the Targaryens strengthening their foothold in the north, while the Manderlys gained more power for themselves.
During the Dance, the Manderlys proved staunch loyalists to Rhaenyra. Being at her side in King's Landing, fighting bravely in the turmoil that ousted her and killed the dragons and one of her sons. Then they even offered her sanctuary at White Harbor. I doubt that was just to be nice to her. Cregan Stark did send out his Winter Wolves, but he himself delayed to get the harvest in. This might be because he hoped the issue would resolve before he could march, but it could easily be the genuine cause for his delay. After all, his army mostly consisted of excess mouths to feed during the winter, men willing to die in battle to spare their families, some might also have had a mind to settle in the south from the beginning. (As many of them did after the war was done.) So from that perspective, the argument that he wanted to spare his people is a bit weakened. Or perhaps overstated in the text, and he really was delaying.
Whatever that case may be, what followed is quite telling I think.
Lord Cregan Stark had his short stint as Hand to King Aegon III. At first he was unsure if the war was to continue; as it didn't he dealt out the justice he felt was needed for the death of King Aegon II, before he resigned and went back north after the coronation. The Manderlys, on the other hand, does the opposite. It was the lord's two sons who had helped Rhaenyra, and they returned to King's Landing in splendor for Aegon III's coronation. Then Ser Torrhen Manderly, the eldest, was made a part of Aegon's council of regency. He returned north when his father died to take up his lordship some time later, but then he was summoned south again to act as Hand of the King in the last months before Aegon III turned 16 and could rule in his own right. Interestingly enough, he took over for Lord Peake; pointing the readers to the old emnity between House Manderly and House Peake. Both seems a bit grasping and powerhungry if you ask me!
To me all this points to the Manderlys trying to get a strong place in the Targaryen court, up to their old games one could say. However, the first Fire & Blood volume ends on an ominous note in the relationship between the Targaryens and the Manderlys:
It was still morning, though, when King Aegon entered the council chambers where Lord Torrhen and the regents were debating whether or not to include Tumbleton on the progress.
Four knights of the Kingsguard accompanied the young king to the council chambers. So did Sandoq the Shadow, veiled and silent, carrying his great sword. His ominous presence cast a pall in the room. For a moment even Torrhen Manderly lost his tongue.
“Lord Manderly,” King Aegon said, in the sudden stillness, “pray tell me how old I am, if you would be so good.”
“You are ten-and-six today, Your Grace,” Lord Manderly replied. “A man grown. It is time for you to take the governance of the Seven Kingdoms into your own hands.”
“I shall,” King Aegon said. “You are sitting in my chair.”
The coldness in his tone took every man in the room aback, Grand Maester Munkun would write years later. Confused and shaken, Torrhen Manderly prised his considerable bulk out of the chair at the head of the council table, with an uneasy glance at Sandoq the Shadow. As he held the chair for the king, he said, “Your Grace, we were speaking of the progress –“
“There will be no progress,” the king declared, as he was seated. “I will not spend a year upon a horse, sleeping in strange beds and trading empty courtesies with drunken lords, half of whom would gladly see me dead if it gained them a groat. If any man requires words with me, he will find me on the Iron Throne.”
Torrhen Manderly persisted. “Sire,” he said, “this progress would do much and more to win you the love of the smallfolk.”
“I mean to give the smallfolk peace and food and justice. If that will not suffice to win their love, let Mushroom make a progress. Or perhaps we might send a dancing bear. Someone once told me that the commons love nothing half so much as dancing bears. You may call a halt to this feast tonight as well. Send the lords home to their own keeps and give the food to the hungry. Full bellies and dancing bears shall be my policy.” Then Aegon turned to the three regents. “Lord Stackspear, Lord Grandison, Lord Merryweather, I thank you for your service. Consider yourselves free to go. I shall have no further need of regents.”
“And will Your Grace have need of a Hand?” asked Lord Manderly.
“A king should have a Hand of his own choosing,” said Aegon III, rising to his feet. “You have served me well, no doubt, as you served my mother before me, but it was my lords who chose you. You may return to White Harbor.”
“Gladly, sire,” said Manderly in a voice that Grand Maester Munkun would later call a growl. “I have not drunk a decent ale since coming to this cesspit of a castle.” Whereupon he removed his chain of office and set it on the council table.
Less than a fortnight later, Lord Manderly took ship for White Harbor with a small entourage of sworn swords and servants … amongst them Mushroom. The fool had grown fond of the big northman, it would seem, and had eagerly accepted his offer of a place at White Harbor rather than remain with a king who seldom smiled and never laughed. “I was a fool but never such a fool as to stay with that fool,” he tells us.
The dwarf would come to outlive the young king that he abandoned. The later volumes of his Testimony, filled with colorful accounts of his life in White Harbor, his sojourn at the court of the Sealord of Braavos, his voyage to the Port of Ibben, and his years amongst the mummers of the Lisping Lady, are valuable in their own right, though less than useful to our purpose here … so, sadly, the little man with the foul tongue must pass from our story. Though never the most reliable of chroniclers, the dwarf spoke turths no one else dared speak, and was often droll besides.
Mushroom tells us that the cog that Lord Manderly and his party sailed upon was called Jolly Salt, but the mood aboard the ship was far from jolly as they beat their way north toward White Harbor. Torrhen Manderly had never liked “that sullen boy”, as his letters to his daughter make clear, bor would he ever forgive the king for the brusque manner of his dismissal, or the way His Grace “murdered” the royal progress, whose abrupt end of his lordship took for a deeply humiliating personal affront.
Within moments of taking the governance of the Seven Kingdoms into his own hands, King Aegon III had made an enemy of a man who had been amongst his most leal and devoted servants.
And thus did the rule of the regents come whimpering to and end, as the broken reign of the Broken King began.
Four knights of the Kingsguard accompanied the young king to the council chambers. So did Sandoq the Shadow, veiled and silent, carrying his great sword. His ominous presence cast a pall in the room. For a moment even Torrhen Manderly lost his tongue.
“Lord Manderly,” King Aegon said, in the sudden stillness, “pray tell me how old I am, if you would be so good.”
“You are ten-and-six today, Your Grace,” Lord Manderly replied. “A man grown. It is time for you to take the governance of the Seven Kingdoms into your own hands.”
“I shall,” King Aegon said. “You are sitting in my chair.”
The coldness in his tone took every man in the room aback, Grand Maester Munkun would write years later. Confused and shaken, Torrhen Manderly prised his considerable bulk out of the chair at the head of the council table, with an uneasy glance at Sandoq the Shadow. As he held the chair for the king, he said, “Your Grace, we were speaking of the progress –“
“There will be no progress,” the king declared, as he was seated. “I will not spend a year upon a horse, sleeping in strange beds and trading empty courtesies with drunken lords, half of whom would gladly see me dead if it gained them a groat. If any man requires words with me, he will find me on the Iron Throne.”
Torrhen Manderly persisted. “Sire,” he said, “this progress would do much and more to win you the love of the smallfolk.”
“I mean to give the smallfolk peace and food and justice. If that will not suffice to win their love, let Mushroom make a progress. Or perhaps we might send a dancing bear. Someone once told me that the commons love nothing half so much as dancing bears. You may call a halt to this feast tonight as well. Send the lords home to their own keeps and give the food to the hungry. Full bellies and dancing bears shall be my policy.” Then Aegon turned to the three regents. “Lord Stackspear, Lord Grandison, Lord Merryweather, I thank you for your service. Consider yourselves free to go. I shall have no further need of regents.”
“And will Your Grace have need of a Hand?” asked Lord Manderly.
“A king should have a Hand of his own choosing,” said Aegon III, rising to his feet. “You have served me well, no doubt, as you served my mother before me, but it was my lords who chose you. You may return to White Harbor.”
“Gladly, sire,” said Manderly in a voice that Grand Maester Munkun would later call a growl. “I have not drunk a decent ale since coming to this cesspit of a castle.” Whereupon he removed his chain of office and set it on the council table.
Less than a fortnight later, Lord Manderly took ship for White Harbor with a small entourage of sworn swords and servants … amongst them Mushroom. The fool had grown fond of the big northman, it would seem, and had eagerly accepted his offer of a place at White Harbor rather than remain with a king who seldom smiled and never laughed. “I was a fool but never such a fool as to stay with that fool,” he tells us.
The dwarf would come to outlive the young king that he abandoned. The later volumes of his Testimony, filled with colorful accounts of his life in White Harbor, his sojourn at the court of the Sealord of Braavos, his voyage to the Port of Ibben, and his years amongst the mummers of the Lisping Lady, are valuable in their own right, though less than useful to our purpose here … so, sadly, the little man with the foul tongue must pass from our story. Though never the most reliable of chroniclers, the dwarf spoke turths no one else dared speak, and was often droll besides.
Mushroom tells us that the cog that Lord Manderly and his party sailed upon was called Jolly Salt, but the mood aboard the ship was far from jolly as they beat their way north toward White Harbor. Torrhen Manderly had never liked “that sullen boy”, as his letters to his daughter make clear, bor would he ever forgive the king for the brusque manner of his dismissal, or the way His Grace “murdered” the royal progress, whose abrupt end of his lordship took for a deeply humiliating personal affront.
Within moments of taking the governance of the Seven Kingdoms into his own hands, King Aegon III had made an enemy of a man who had been amongst his most leal and devoted servants.
And thus did the rule of the regents come whimpering to and end, as the broken reign of the Broken King began.
The Lysene Spring and the End of Regency
A bit of a long quote, I know, but I find the scene interesting and the context important, so I hope you bear with me. The most important part is the single bolded sentence at the end. With the implied message, the book ends on a bit of a cliff hanger. We don't know what mess will follow during King Aegon III's reign yet, but we do know that Cregan's son and heir will die in Dorne beside his king, Daeron I. Perhaps the power balanse between the Starks, the Manderlys, and the Targaryens shifted during the 25 years Aegon III sat the Iron Throne? I, for one, is curious of what is to come (?) in volume 2!
End note: One of the reasons I wonder is how that might affect the Manderlys part in Robert's Rebellion many years later. From what we know they fought loyally with the Starks, but then again you never know! Little Wylle, while professing her loyalty to the Starks and the wish for vengance for what was done to them, also has colored her hair "a garish green". This makes me wonder which links they have to Tyrosh, a Free City which also has ties to Viserys and Dany, Doran Martell, and Young Griff. So have the Manderlys agains shifted side, this time to a Targaryen restoration...? Though that question might be better placed in a thread on the main books.