The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens

Both of these makes sense for people or organizations that could be influencing or using Varys and Baelish!

Yup. Still are people and groups working together? Or who is using who? Still hard to say. Still Baelish's money skills had to come from somewhere. My headcanon is that after healing on the Fingers after the duel with Brandon he travelled to Braavos for several years gaining skills there. Also there were those knife tricks we saw in GOT. Mayhaps he also prayed at the House of Black and White?

I had a chance to look at Tyrek's disappearance timeline a bit last night at work. When Tyrek disappeared Jacelyn Bywater was the commander of the Nights Watch, and was the first person tasked with finding Tyrek, whether the boy was dead or alive. Bywater is a commander killed by his own men (hello, Jon Snow) and then after the Blackwater, Tywin appoints Addam Marbrand to this position. I like the Marbrand connection for Tyrek, but really can't see how Addam could have found Tyrek and be withholding him from the Lannister's. I guess that's some tinfoil I will need to set aside!

Sorry for your theory. Was Bywater killed by him men or did someone put a hit out on him?

Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.

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The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens Nov 5, 2019 16:35:00 GMT Wraith likes this

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Post by stdaga on Nov 5, 2019 16:35:00 GMT

Nov 5, 2019 4:15:32 GMT Wraith said:

Both of these makes sense for people or organizations that could be influencing or using Varys and Baelish!

Yup. Still are people and groups working together? Or who is using who? Still hard to say. Still Baelish's money skills had to come from somewhere. My headcanon is that after healing on the Fingers after the duel with Brandon he travelled to Braavos for several years gaining skills there. Also there were those knife tricks we saw in GOT. Mayhaps he also prayed at the House of Black and White?

Petyr Baelish could be tied to a whole passel of things. I find the thought of him being an agent or tied to the Iron Bank more believable than him being tied to the House of Black and White. Knife skills can be learned anywhere, and can be perfected with time and practice. Baelish is not afraid to hone his skills and I do think he is quite patient.

Nov 5, 2019 4:15:32 GMT Wraith said:

I had a chance to look at Tyrek's disappearance timeline a bit last night at work. When Tyrek disappeared Jacelyn Bywater was the commander of the Nights Watch, and was the first person tasked with finding Tyrek, whether the boy was dead or alive. Bywater is a commander killed by his own men (hello, Jon Snow) and then after the Blackwater, Tywin appoints Addam Marbrand to this position. I like the Marbrand connection for Tyrek, but really can't see how Addam could have found Tyrek and be withholding him from the Lannister's. I guess that's some tinfoil I will need to set aside!

Sorry for your theory. Was Bywater killed by him men or did someone put a hit out on him?

Oh, it was nothing I was invested in, just a few thoughts that might tie together. Still find the Marbrand connection interesting, but the timeline with when Marbrand in charge of the gold cloaks doesn't really jive with Tyrek's disappearance. If Bywater found Tyrek, what would be his incentive for keeping the news away from the Lannisters? Although, Bywater seems to be connected to Varys. I think it was Varys who suggested Bywater for the job, and told Tyrion that he would find Bywater quite appreciative.

I guess Bywater might have been loyal to Robert Baratheon, or his memory, since Robert knighted Bywater after the Battle on Pyke in the Greyjoy rebellion. Perhaps if Bywater suspected Tyrek knew something about Robert's death, he might have tried to separate the boy from the Lannister's, but that is a whole lot of speculation.

As to how Bywater died, I think we only have Bronn's interpretation of the events. He says that Bywater was trying to rally his gold cloaks and that he was shot in the neck by an arrow. This was about the time that he had pretty much convinced the gold cloaks to continue to fight, but with him injured, his men drug him off his horse and killed him. There could certainly be something shifty going on with this. Was Bywater killed because he was successfully rallying the troops? If so, then it's not likely it was a Lannister man to shoot the arrow. So, someone in league with Stannis' people (where all the Antler Men captured at this point)? Anyway his fall might not have been accidental. As to whether his death was a hit, I suppose that was possible. But was it a strike against him personally? Or just to weaken the Lannister hold on the gold cloaks? Varys seems unlikely to plot this, since he seem to have put Bywater under Tyrion's nose, so perhaps someone trying to step on Varys' toes?

Bronn is also not trustworthy in this situation and one wonders if he could have shot that arrow that weakened Bywater? Bywater and Bronn would have crossed paths before. Bronn took a message to Bywater when Bywater and some of his gold cloaks kidnapped Tommen when Cersei was trying to sneak him out of the city. It's also interesting that Bywater is associated with finding a hidden child and hiding him somewhere else. Maybe there is a nod toward Tyrek in all of that!

:dunno

Another thought I just had is that Cersei was no fan of Bywater after the Tommen situation, so perhaps she tried to have the man killed. It seems so stupid to do such a thing that would weaken the defense of King's Landing during the Battle of the Blackwater, but Cersei often thinks she is quite cleaver when she is really just shooting herself in the foot. Maybe we need an arrow in the foot emoji???

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The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens Nov 6, 2019 4:07:53 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by Wraith on Nov 6, 2019 4:07:53 GMT

Nov 5, 2019 19:06:10 GMT stdaga said:

Petyr Baelish could be tied to a whole passel of things. I find the thought of him being an agent or tied to the Iron Bank more believable than him being tied to the House of Black and White. Knife skills can be learned anywhere, and can be perfected with time and practice. Baelish is not afraid to hone his skills and I do think he is quite patient.

Is it possible that he is a failed Faceless Man? Arya is often given chances to leave the HoBaW and assume a better life. Baelish realized that sacrificing his life to the Many Faced God wasn't for him and they got him an in with the Iron Bank. Also I think there is a connection between the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men.

Nov 5, 2019 19:06:10 GMT stdaga said:

Oh, it was nothing I was invested in, just a few thoughts that might tie together. Still find the Marbrand connection interesting, but the timeline with when Marbrand in charge of the gold cloaks doesn't really jive with Tyrek's disappearance. If Bywater found Tyrek, what would be his incentive for keeping the news away from the Lannisters? Although, Bywater seems to be connected to Varys. I think it was Varys who suggested Bywater for the job, and told Tyrion that he would find Bywater quite appreciative.

I absolutely think that Bywater is a Vary's (not sure of the word spy, patsy, etc. I am sure he is under the influence of Varys). This parallels nicely with Janos Slynt, a Baelish pawn. Then Addam Marbrand, a knight working for Tywin.

Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.

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The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens Nov 9, 2019 14:37:23 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Nov 9, 2019 14:37:23 GMT

Nov 9, 2019 10:34:23 GMT Wraith said:

Is it possible that he is a failed Faceless Man? Arya is often given chances to leave the HoBaW and assume a better life. Baelish realized that sacrificing his life to the Many Faced God wasn't for him and they got him an in with the Iron Bank. Also I think there is a connection between the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men.

If this turns out to be the case, and I have no idea if it might, I wonder if Arya will recognize something in Baelish the next time she see's him. Some habit's of training, something that would clue her into his history with the HoBaW?

As for a connection between the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men, are you thinking that one organization own or run' the other?

Nov 9, 2019 10:34:23 GMT Wraith said:

I absolutely think that Bywater is a Vary's (not sure of the word spy, patsy, etc. I am sure he is under the influence of Varys). This parallels nicely with Janos Slynt, a Baelish pawn. Then Addam Marbrand, a knight working for Tywin.

Varys did lead Tyrion to Bywater, but what is the purpose of that. Bywater was by all means a good leader of the gold cloaks, so this wasn't under handed, and it helped Tyrion out. Even if Bywater was shifting information to Varys, how would that information have harmed the Lannister's. We have that interesting thing about Tommen's kidnapping, taking Tommen away from Cersei and placing him in Tyrion's hands, but even if Bywater sifted that information to Varys, what did Varys gain from that.

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The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens Nov 10, 2019 7:59:55 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by Wraith on Nov 10, 2019 7:59:55 GMT

Nov 9, 2019 18:20:41 GMT stdaga said:

If this turns out to be the case, and I have no idea if it might, I wonder if Arya will recognize something in Baelish the next time she see's him. Some habit's of training, something that would clue her into his history with the HoBaW?

I haven't any noticeable thing that all Faceless Men that would lead Arya to notice it.

Nov 9, 2019 18:20:41 GMT stdaga said:

As for a connection between the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men, are you thinking that one organization own or run' the other?

More of a mutually beneficial alliance. Both are two of the oldest organizations in Braavos. Both have large underground vault in former mines. I think the Faceless Men guard the vaults of the Iron Bank and the IB hires the FM when people fail to pay their debts.

Nov 9, 2019 18:20:41 GMT stdaga said:

Varys did lead Tyrion to Bywater, but what is the purpose of that. Bywater was by all means a good leader of the gold cloaks, so this wasn't under handed, and it helped Tyrion out. Even if Bywater was shifting information to Varys, how would that information have harmed the Lannister's. We have that interesting thing about Tommen's kidnapping, taking Tommen away from Cersei and placing him in Tyrion's hands, but even if Bywater sifted that information to Varys, what did Varys gain from that.

Varys gain was Baelish's loss. I am sure that keeping the Gold Cloaks out of the direct control of one of his pawns is enough reason. Also you might remember the Gold Cloaks had just played a huge role in who controlled King's Landing after Baelish decided to side with the Lannisters against the Starks.

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The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens Nov 10, 2019 15:54:23 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Nov 10, 2019 15:54:23 GMT

Nov 10, 2019 7:59:55 GMT Wraith said:

More of a mutually beneficial alliance. Both are two of the oldest organizations in Braavos. Both have large underground vault in former mines. I think the Faceless Men guard the vaults of the Iron Bank and the IB hires the FM when people fail to pay their debts.

Could the Iron Bank repeatedly afford the price of the Faceless Men. They only demand payment for what you can afford, and while the Iron Bank could afford a lot, could they afford it over and over and over again. Of course, perhaps many people don't renege on their debt. Most people might not be as stupid as Cersei.

Also, how much would it cost to hire a Faceless man as a guard? And what is so special in the vaults that a person would need such a guard. Not just money, I would think, if this turns out to be correct.

Nov 10, 2019 7:59:55 GMT Wraith said:

Varys gain was Baelish's loss. I am sure that keeping the Gold Cloaks out of the direct control of one of his pawns is enough reason. Also you might remember the Gold Cloaks had just played a huge role in who controlled King's Landing after Baelish decided to side with the Lannisters against the Starks.

So Varys' play was to cut out Baelish's power with the Gold Cloaks? But Baelish already lost some power when Janos Slynt was sent to the wall. I suppose that Varys could have feared that Baelish could have another man ready to step into Slynt's role, and wanted to cut him out. It does make sense. However, there is no reason to think that Bywater wasn't giving Baelish information as well as Varys, although he might have been quite loyal to Varys.

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The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens Nov 14, 2019 6:50:15 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by Wraith on Nov 14, 2019 6:50:15 GMT

Nov 13, 2019 17:18:37 GMT stdaga said:

Could the Iron Bank repeatedly afford the price of the Faceless Men. They only demand payment for what you can afford, and while the Iron Bank could afford a lot, could they afford it over and over and over again. Of course, perhaps many people don't renege on their debt. Most people might not be as stupid as Cersei.

As I said I think its an alliance of sorts. So maybe VIP treatment or Iron Bank only uses Faceless Men when men fail to pay their debts. I don't think the Iron Bank is paying full price for every assassination.

Nov 13, 2019 17:18:37 GMT stdaga said:

Also, how much would it cost to hire a Faceless man as a guard? And what is so special in the vaults that a person would need such a guard. Not just money, I would think, if this turns out to be correct.

Well the idea is that both organizations have control of the tunnels under Braavos. Likely they connect and the Faceless Men can protect both their secrets and the IB wealth.

Nov 13, 2019 17:18:37 GMT stdaga said:

So Varys' play was to cut out Baelish's power with the Gold Cloaks? But Baelish already lost some power when Janos Slynt was sent to the wall. I suppose that Varys could have feared that Baelish could have another man ready to step into Slynt's role, and wanted to cut him out. It does make sense. However, there is no reason to think that Bywater wasn't giving Baelish information as well as Varys, although he might have been quite loyal to Varys.

Tyrion certainly seemed to think that Varys had Bywater in his pocket. We get so little from Bywater its hard to gauge his motivations.

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The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens Nov 14, 2019 16:38:35 GMT Wraith likes this

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Post by stdaga on Nov 14, 2019 16:38:35 GMT

Nov 14, 2019 6:56:06 GMT Wraith said:

As I said I think its an alliance of sorts. So maybe VIP treatment or Iron Bank only uses Faceless Men when men fail to pay their debts. I don't think the Iron Bank is paying full price for every assassination.

It's possible the two organizations work together in this way.

Nov 14, 2019 6:56:06 GMT Wraith said:

Well the idea is that both organizations have control of the tunnels under Braavos. Likely they connect and the Faceless Men can protect both their secrets and the IB wealth.

We are certainly told that there are deep vaults under the Iron Bank and that there are at least three levels below the main surface at the HobaW, but are there any hints to a large network of tunnels? Or tunnel's at all. Or how deep the vaults go? The House of Black and White sit's on a high, rocky knoll, so even three stories below the main floor, might not actually be below sea level. The vaults of the Iron Bank are noted to be subterranean, and associated with iron mines. I must admit I don't focus on Braavos, besides it being a wet, marshy place, so I had to do some research. We never get a physical description of the Iron Bank. As to the city of Braavos, is it really designed to have tunnel's running all over the place? For instance, if tunnels exist, why don't they bring drinking water into their city using those tunnel's, why did they build the Sweetwater River, the aquaduct, to do this?

An interesting thing I came across while reading of Braavos is that the people of Braavos are associated with sea snails that give a rich, purple dye. Of course, purple is associated with Braavos, in ships and sails, etc, so this makes a lot of sense. We had been discussing on another thread about the color of dye that the Tyroshi had initially become famous for, and since purple snail dye is associated with Braavos, it makes me feel even more strongly that it's green snail dye that is associated with Tyrosh and the area around it. Green snails that stain the shores of Greenstone across the Narrow Sea. Garth the Green, known for his green hair and green hand (perhaps from the dye) that is connected to Tyrosh.

Nov 14, 2019 6:56:06 GMT Wraith said:

Tyrion certainly seemed to think that Varys had Bywater in his pocket. We get so little from Bywater its hard to gauge his motivations.

Well, Tyrion isn't always right, although he likes to believe he is. Varys certainly tipped Tyrion toward Bywater as the Commander of the Gold Cloaks. information on Bywater's loyalties might have died with him. If he truly died? Perhaps he was spirited away in the chaos of the Battle of the Blackwater. Which would be ironic since he was supposed to be looking for a boy who was spirited away in the chaos of the riots in King's Landing. Are we ever told of Bywater's remains or burial? However, with either his death or apparent death, Cersei was able to gather Tommen back under her control.

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The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens Nov 15, 2019 5:54:16 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by Wraith on Nov 15, 2019 5:54:16 GMT

We are certainly told that there are deep vaults under the Iron Bank and that there are at least three levels below the main surface at the HobaW, but are there any hints to a large network of tunnels? Or tunnel's at all. Or how deep the vaults go? The House of Black and White sit's on a high, rocky knoll, so even three stories below the main floor, might not actually be below sea level. The vaults of the Iron Bank are noted to be subterranean, and associated with iron mines. I must admit I don't focus on Braavos, besides it being a wet, marshy place, so I had to do some research. We never get a physical description of the Iron Bank. As to the city of Braavos, is it really designed to have tunnel's running all over the place? For instance, if tunnels exist, why don't they bring drinking water into their city using those tunnel's, why did they build the Sweetwater River, the aquaduct, to do this?

Braavos is also home to one of the most powerful banks in the world, whose roots stretch back to the beginnings of the city, when a few of the fugitives took to hiding such valuables as they had in an abandoned iron mine to keep them safe from thieves and pirates. As the city grew and prospered, the shafts and chambers of the mine began to fill. Rather than let their treasure sit idle in the earth, the wealthier Braavosi began to make loans to their less fortunate brethren.

It appears there is a whole iron mine under Braavos. This is from the World Book.

An interesting thing I came across while reading of Braavos is that the people of Braavos are associated with sea snails that give a rich, purple dye. Of course, purple is associated with Braavos, in ships and sails, etc, so this makes a lot of sense. We had been discussing on another thread about the color of dye that the Tyroshi had initially become famous for, and since purple snail dye is associated with Braavos, it makes me feel even more strongly that it's green snail dye that is associated with Tyrosh and the area around it. Green snails that stain the shores of Greenstone across the Narrow Sea. Garth the Green, known for his green hair and green hand (perhaps from the dye) that is connected to Tyrosh.

Funny since purple is associated with royalty in our world. Purple sails is the calling card of the Braavos trading fleet and everyone knows not to mess with them.

Yes I agree that Tyrosh especially the Archon seem to be connected with the color green. Still not sure I see a connection with Garth Greenhand. One thing I just thought of the Tyroshi would have been near the land bridge that the First Men used to cross into Dorne all those years ago. Maybe Garth used the dye from his homeland to help build his mythic persona.

Well, Tyrion isn't always right, although he likes to believe he is.

This is how I think Martin tricks us readers. Even the smartest characters can be wrong especially when they are sure they are correct.

Varys certainly tipped Tyrion toward Bywater as the Commander of the Gold Cloaks. information on Bywater's loyalties might have died with him. If he truly died? Perhaps he was spirited away in the chaos of the Battle of the Blackwater. Which would be ironic since he was supposed to be looking for a boy who was spirited away in the chaos of the riots in King's Landing. Are we ever told of Bywater's remains or burial? However, with either his death or apparent death, Cersei was able to gather Tommen back under her control.

Never saw a funeral just that he was killed with an arrow after being pulled off his horse. Certainly sounds like a assassination attempt to me. I have no idea why Bywater would fake his death and go into hiding. Many people see his death so it seems unlikely to me.

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The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens Nov 15, 2019 15:40:03 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Nov 15, 2019 15:40:03 GMT

Braavos is also home to one of the most powerful banks in the world, whose roots stretch back to the beginnings of the city, when a few of the fugitives took to hiding such valuables as they had in an abandoned iron mine to keep them safe from thieves and pirates. As the city grew and prospered, the shafts and chambers of the mine began to fill. Rather than let their treasure sit idle in the earth, the wealthier Braavosi began to make loans to their less fortunate brethren.

It appears there is a whole iron mine under Braavos. This is from the World Book.

I guess it does sound like tunnels or shafts, although the geography of Braavos is a bit odd. Iron mines under a marshy area, that is surrounded by mountains and has an amazingly deep harbor. Perhaps it's all the canal's that make me think of Venice, and there are certainly no mines under the city of Venice. It's sand and silt and buildings are built on pylon's driven deep through the silt and sand to the clay underneath. My first impression of Braavos is like Venice. However, if GRRM wants to put an iron mine under his city, it's his world and he can do that if he wants to, even if it doesn't really make sense. Of course, the rocky upthrust that the House of Black and White sit's on doesn't really make sense in a lagoon surrounded by marsh and silt, and I seem to accept that.

Funny since purple is associated with royalty in our world. Purple sails is the calling card of the Braavos trading fleet and everyone knows not to mess with them.

There is nothing supposedly royal about Braavos, a city founded by escaped slaves, but just like putting an iron mine under a marsh, GRRM can do what he wants. Braavos is certainly tied to the color purple, however the most dominant structure in Braavos might be the Titan of Braavos, and it is known for it's green hair. Of course, green hair is tied to both Garth Greenhand and people from Tyrosh (even if you don't see these things as connected to each other, the color connections themselves are apparent). But why wouldn't the Titan be covered in purple, since it's a dominant color in Braavos? No, the titan is green haired with a bronze helm. Green and bronze happen to be colors I associated with the crannog people from the marshes of Westeros. So, is there a connection between the crannogmen and Braavos? Or even Braavos and Tyrosh, which both seem to have snail dye to connect them, green and purple.

Yes I agree that Tyrosh especially the Archon seem to be connected with the color green. Still not sure I see a connection with Garth Greenhand. One thing I just thought of the Tyroshi would have been near the land bridge that the First Men used to cross into Dorne all those years ago. Maybe Garth used the dye from his homeland to help build his mythic persona.

Yes, I thought I had mentioned how close Tyrosh was to the stepstones (which was the land bridge, or so we are told) and also Greenstone across the Narrow Sea. There is also the delta of the Greenblood river that, which also is near the step stones, which I was just thinking about last night. I can see how all of these things can be connected. And that Garth Greenhand might have come from this area in Essos, or at least through it on his way to Westeros (also debating if he is a First Man or perhaps an Andal). I guess the color's connect Garth to Tyrosh, and while that might seem too simple, I think that GRRM's story started out far more simple than it is now. Just the descriptions he uses for places in Westeros fit's simple connections. The riverlands are full of rivers, the Rills are full of rills, the Barrowlands are a place of barrows, the wolfswood is a forest associated with wolves, the Stormlands are a place of stormy weather. The only creative name to any kingdom is Dorne. However, I don't think we get details of Garth until the World Book, but the first mention of the man is in the appendix of Game of Thrones, so it was a character that has been in GRRM's mind since the beginning.

I will also say that the color choices that GRRM uses in the story must be important. Why are the rivers that lead into the Trident named by color? The Red Fork, the Green Fork, the Blue Fork, and the Green Fork is actually fed by twin (unnamed, I think) rivers that come out of the Neck, a place of the crannogmen, who are associated with the color green. Even the idea that Dawn is the white sword, yet we also have a river named the White Knife in the north that almost seems to connect back to this sword that lies so far to the south. These were purposeful choices on his part, and probably part of the initial mystery he was building.

Never saw a funeral just that he was killed with an arrow after being pulled off his horse. Certainly sounds like a assassination attempt to me. I have no idea why Bywater would fake his death and go into hiding. Many people see his death so it seems unlikely to me.

Yes, we never hear of a body turning up, or a burial. Perhaps it's just forgotten or unmentioned, but Bywater was shot in the neck with an arrow while he was rallying his troops, and then was pulled off his horse into a crowd and he was killed. It's probably quite unlikely that he is alive, I just wondered if he was being held captive by someone, not that he was hiding. Still, he is probably dead, and I come to suspect quite a bit that it could have been Bronn that shot that arrow. Any of the Kettleblack's is also possible. I think it was someone working for Cersei, so the Kettleblack's make sense, but Bronn is an opportunist and Cersei would like to undermine Tyrion as much as she could. But yes, Bywater is probably quite dead, just as reported. He just still get's several mentions in the story, for a fairly minor character, from both Tyrion and Jaime.

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The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens Dec 31, 2019 17:59:13 GMT

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Post by shymaid on Dec 31, 2019 17:59:13 GMT

Wow, been more activity on this thread than last time I popped by!

stdaga , Wraith , canitryto , sorry for getting back here so late! I was planning to be here a bit this fall, but I got a cold in September which stuck around to this day... I thought I'd finally beat it before Christmas and wanted to spend the week here, but alas my sinuses didn't agree with me... But I'll probably be here tomorrow and perhaps later in the week.

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The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens Dec 31, 2019 20:30:10 GMT Wraith and canitryto like this

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Post by shymaid on Dec 31, 2019 20:30:10 GMT

I haven't looked at Fire and Blood since my first read through, which has been almost a year, I think. But I did wonder if perhaps Aegon I wasn't very welcome at Winterfell or very deep into the north, which is why his progresses included other area's of the North. It could also be ease, since it's easiest to get to White Harbor, just by ship. Barrowtown is still a hard ride, though not quite as far distance wise as Winterfell. Do you remember if Aegon I took the dragons on these progressess, like Alysanne and Jaehaerys did? I remember reading that line between Alaric and Alysanne as "keep your dragon out" and she had no argument back like "well, Grandpa Aegon brought his dragon here and didn't burn your castle down, so I think your walls are safe" etc.

I did a casual read first, then a thorough afterward, and particularly the latter had a few things pop in my mind!

I hadn't considered that Aegon wasn't welcome at Winterfell, as my thinking was that he was certain of Torrhen's loyalty (though perhaps not so much his sons, IIRC). I did find it interesting that there were trouble in other parts of the North, and the mention that he went there to put down any opposition.

And yes, he did bring Balerion to Winterfell the one time he went there. Alysanne's trip north is worded in the way that she wanted to put her best foot first, and not upset Aleric more than he already was. (He was bitter of his brother's fate by having to put down the rebellion at the Wall by some of the Faith Militant, complained of the stress of resources demanded on the Watch with the huge input of men at the Wall, then Jaehaerys delayed his departure for the North to forge a peace between two Free Cities (I don't remember which right now). Just thought I'd note this down in case you didn't remember.

) Aleric's reputation wasn't the best either. But I do wonder how much of the narrative of this visit is the official story, and what might be different. But if we take the narrative at it's word, she was a bit... is nervous the right word...? and didn't want to upset him. So if that was the case, her giving a sassy answer wouldn't earn her any favors. Might be just her being polite. And for that matter, we don't know where/how the dragons were housed on other progresses either.

Anyway, I would agree the Manderly's did get several mentions in Fire and Blood. I am inclined to believe that in our current story, the Manderly's are indeed trying to usurp the Stark's, so it would not at all surprise me if they haven't been working for years to undermine the Starks while strengthening their own position. And by becoming a favorite of your Targaryen liege, you might gain great power. But one wonders if this also could have happened because the Stark's perhaps encouraged the Manderly's to go to court. With a "if you are stirring up trouble in the capitol, you can't be stirring up trouble in the north" kind of mentality.

It might be the Starks "sending" them south, perhaps to get them out of their ~~hair~~ lands; perhaps they didn't protest the Manderly's actions as they wanted to be seen favorably if their foothold proved to be successful in the long run. Might bring them advantages without having to play the game themselves?

I am sure the Manderly's didn't like this, but since Maegor was crazy-pants at this time, they probably feared he would fly to White Harbor and roast them in their beds if they complained. I would keep my mouth shut too.

Haha! They might be climbers, but they're not stupid! Just wondered as we don't even hear of any murmurings of anger. But that might be seen as apparent, and no need to put it on the page.

However, on a different thread, we recently discussed White Harbor and it's large sept dedicated to the Faith of the Seven. The Sept of the Snow's, also know as the Snowy Sept. The discussion included the choice of name for the sept, since Snow is the common name for bastards in the north (yet the Faith doesn't really look kindly on bastards in general), does that have anything to do with the choice of name for the Sept? Also, did the Maderly's built the sept, or could it have been there before the Manderly's arrived in the north, which could hint at a incursion of the Faith prior to the Manderly's arrival in the north.

I didn't even remember the name of that sept, so I don't have any opinion on that as of yet. But I'll note in behind my ear, as the saying goes in my neck of the woods. (And so the question follows if one remember what is written behind the ear, when you can't read it to remember it!

)

There is great money and power in the faith, so perhaps if the Faith was already established in the north at White Harbor, then the faith could have helped orchestrate the Manderly's arrival in the north. It makes sense to hope that the family that rules your city or region supports the faith of the people around them.

It's hard to say when they came a thousand years ago. But it's possible when considering it is a port city. Seems like many religions are represented in such places, and so the Faith might have gotten a small foothold there because of that. Could the name have come as followers of the Faith might be considered as "religious bastards"?

It's also possible, if this is the case, that the Faith pleaded with the Starks on behalf of the Manderlys. And if that was the case, I'd think they had some direct tie between them.

It is interesting that there was a marriage alliance in the making between the Manderly's and the Targaryen's. It's a huge coups to get a royal princess. Of course, my pet theory is that Aegon I promised a princess of his line to the Stark's, but if he did so, this seems to be long forgotten by the time J&A wanted to marry a daughter off into the north. They chose the Manderly's. But I also wonder if this could have something to do with pacification of the Faith of the Seven. Were J&A trying to smooth the realm by good will to families that were strong in the Faith? Still trying to smooth over Maegor's struggles with the Faith, as well as trying to make sure the Faith doesn't want to overthrow the Doctrine of Exceptionalism. What year did that all come about? It was quite early in Jaehaerys reign.

Well, on the one hand, if the Starks had missed out on a royal marriage, I very much doubt it was forgotten as soon as the reign of J&A; on the other hand, considering Aleric's attitude to the Targaryens he might not want to join the families. I basically don't see much proof of a deal like that being on the table - which doesn't mean it wasn't, just that we don't have anything to say that it was.

I would have to take another look at the timeline, but IIRC this betrothal came about after they tried to marry off their neurotic daughter to the Blackwoods, and she was all in until she realized they worshipped trees instead of the Faith. Perhaps that came into play with the daughter they promised the Manderlys as well, and as such they chose a house that had the same religion. That being said, the little we hear of the daughter promised to the Manderlys, she doesn't sound like she would balk at religion. Just looking at it from all sides here.

I actually find Wylla Manderly to be quite loyal to the Stark's, perhaps the most loyal of the Manderly's. Her hair color is odd, I suppose, but green is one of the the colors associated with House Manderly. I think she is an important information drop about how the Stark-Manderly association started. She is probably considered too young to be in on any plot, and honestly, it would be silly of Wyman to trust her with his machinations. I doubt his daughter in law or either granddaughter is aware of what might be going on. Well, maybe Wynafryd, she seems to hold her cards close to her vest.

However, I can't deny that Wylla with her green hair, even if its a house color, is a bit odd to see in Westerosi nobility. Is she just a bit of a wild teenager? Have they been covering her hair for years, to hide something about her? If so, are they hiding something that could connect her to the Targaryen's? If her hair doesn't fit the rest of the family, they have a good reason to try to hide it. Davos notes her eyebrows are blond. Now, it's a port city, so it should be easy to get dye from Tyrosh, and Tyrosh seems to be known for it's hair dye. Does that indicate a connection between the Manderly's and Tyrosh? Or is it just something that is used to help with a disguise, like we see with Sansa/Alayne?

Wylis is bald, so I am unsure of hair color. Leona, the mother, has yellow hair. Wynafryd has brown hair. Wylla seems to be blond, at least based on her eye brows. Do they all fit together correctly? It's hard to say. Is "yellow" and "blond" the same color of hair? I do think they are trying to hide something, perhaps.

I haven't considered her change in hair being something to hide her identity, and off the top of my head I don's see how she could be related to the Targaryens (unless her mother was taken to Viserys or something, but that is really far fetched imo).

As you say, she is a huge info drop on the prehistory of the Manderly - Stark relation, and as such she could at the same time be an info drop on other Manderly relations in the present. And that, combined with the added history in F&B, makes me think of them being Targaryen loyalists and preparing for their return to the throne.

If this is the case, it would be expected for them to come into conflict with the Starks due to the rebellion. Now, if Ned still lived, that might not be the case from the Stark side, depending on what really happened with the rebellion. However, Viserys might not know what really happened if what we learn from Dany is to go by, and he wasn't the forgiving type.

I agree that Wylla herself is too young to be part of any plot, I am not so sure about her sister. It definitely seem like Wyman holds his cards close to this chest, so I doubt many know of his plans.

I haven't had time to reread this part of the story (began with Davos in Dance, but only came as far as him getting to White Harbor), so I haven't been reading the Manderlys in this light in the main story yet.

But you do make a good point about Targaryen connections to Tyrosh. We see it several times in the course of the history we are told, even that Aegon I, before the conquest, took the side of Tyrosh and Pentos in a war against Volantis.

Yes, and their relationship with the Free Cities is a bit of a tangle in certain ways. And I don't have a good grip on where Tyrosh stands in all this. It does seem like they are on the Targaryen side, but they also seem to have a close relationship with Dorne over the centuries including before they joined the Seven Kingdoms. And now they are close to the Martells, and I definitely don't trust Doran! But then again, he might be playing the Tyroshi as well as everybody else.

Good questions, but I for one am going to be beyond irritated if we get F&BV2 before Winds of Winter. Many of these questions of loyalty should be answered in Winds.

Haha, well I'm greedy and want it all! I'm most curious about Maekar to be honest, I think he and his time on the throne might play an important role in everything. And I agree that many, if not most, questions should be answered in the main books - to the extent that we will get all the answers. But from a writing perspective, another F&B book might be easier to write, so there's that. But I don't think F&B 2 would be released before Winds unless GRRM dies, and had vol. 2 finished before that.

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The Starks, The Manderlys, and the Targaryens Jan 1, 2020 15:57:59 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Jan 1, 2020 15:57:59 GMT

I was planning to be here a bit this fall, but I got a cold in September which stuck around to this day... I thought I'd finally beat it before Christmas and wanted to spend the week here, but alas my sinuses didn't agree with me... But I'll probably be here tomorrow and perhaps later in the week.

Sorry you haven't been feeling well. That is no fun!

I hadn't considered that Aegon wasn't welcome at Winterfell, as my thinking was that he was certain of Torrhen's loyalty (though perhaps not so much his sons, IIRC). I did find it interesting that there were trouble in other parts of the North, and the mention that he went there to put down any opposition.

And yes, he did bring Balerion to Winterfell the one time he went there.

As I said, I only read through Fire and Blood once, but I don't remember Aegon and Balerion at Winterfell. I know the World Book states that Aegon went to Winterfell on his last progress, and the world book makes it seem like it was unusual or unexpected.

He traveled throughout the realm for the rest of his life, until his final progress in 33 AC—making a point of paying his respects to the High Septon in the Starry Sept each time he visited Oldtown, guesting beneath the roofs of the lords of the great houses (even Winterfell, on that last progress), and beneath the roofs of many lesser lords, knights, and common innkeepers. The king brought a glittering train with him wherever he went; in one progress, fully a thousand knights followed him, and many lords and ladies of the court besides.

In these progresses, the king was accompanied not only by his courtiers but by maesters and septons as well. Six maesters were often in his company to advise him upon the local laws and traditions of the former realms, so that he might rule in judgment at the courts he held. TWOIAF-The Targaryen Kings: Aegon I

Oddly, no mention of Balerion, but just about everyone else he travels with get's a mention. Why not name the dragon, as well? Anyway, if it says so in Fire and Blood, then that's that. By why "even Winterfell" and "on that last progress". Why did he wait so long into his reign to go to Winterfell? I know it isolated and cold, but it's still one of the great houses in his realm, and it's apparently a castle that is darn impressive in size, it seems odd he didn't visit more or earlier.

Alysanne's trip north is worded in the way that she wanted to put her best foot first, and not upset Aleric more than he already was. (He was bitter of his brother's fate by having to put down the rebellion at the Wall by some of the Faith Militant, complained of the stress of resources demanded on the Watch with the huge input of men at the Wall, then Jaehaerys delayed his departure for the North to forge a peace between two Free Cities (I don't remember which right now). Just thought I'd note this down in case you didn't remember.

) Aleric's reputation wasn't the best either. But I do wonder how much of the narrative of this visit is the official story, and what might be different. But if we take the narrative at it's word, she was a bit... is nervous the right word...? and didn't want to upset him. So if that was the case, her giving a sassy answer wouldn't earn her any favors. Might be just her being polite. And for that matter, we don't know where/how the dragons were housed on other progresses either.

Well, Aleric certainly wasn't fond of losing his brother to a mess he blamed on the Targaryen's. As to Aleric's "reputation", didn't that information come from a Manderly of White Harbor, who might have been trying to shift Alysanne's views on Aleric before she even got there? For the most part, I just can't trust the Manderly's or much or what comes out of their mouth.

It might be the Starks "sending" them south, perhaps to get them out of their ~~hair~~ lands; perhaps they didn't protest the Manderly's actions as they wanted to be seen favorably if their foothold proved to be successful in the long run. Might bring them advantages without having to play the game themselves?

Maybe the Stark's did encourage the Manderly's to go south and play in those political waters. If White Harbor was meddling with King's Landing, it would not be meddling with Winterfell! :thumbsup

It's hard to say when they came a thousand years ago. But it's possible when considering it is a port city. Seems like many religions are represented in such places, and so the Faith might have gotten a small foothold there because of that. Could the name have come as followers of the Faith might be considered as "religious bastards"?

It's also possible, if this is the case, that the Faith pleaded with the Starks on behalf of the Manderlys. And if that was the case, I'd think they had some direct tie between them.

I like this idea that perhaps the Faith intervened on behalf of the Manderly's, and encouraged the Stark's to give the exiled Manderly's a home. And it does seem likely to me at a port city like White Harbor we would see representation of multiple world religions, especially ones that are worshiped along the Narrow Sea.

Well, on the one hand, if the Starks had missed out on a royal marriage, I very much doubt it was forgotten as soon as the reign of J&A; on the other hand, considering Aleric's attitude to the Targaryens he might not want to join the families. I basically don't see much proof of a deal like that being on the table - which doesn't mean it wasn't, just that we don't have anything to say that it was.

I would have to take another look at the timeline, but IIRC this betrothal came about after they tried to marry off their neurotic daughter to the Blackwoods, and she was all in until she realized they worshipped trees instead of the Faith. Perhaps that came into play with the daughter they promised the Manderlys as well, and as such they chose a house that had the same religion. That being said, the little we hear of the daughter promised to the Manderlys, she doesn't sound like she would balk at religion. Just looking at it from all sides here.

I admit that my thoughts on a marriage between the Targaryen's and Stark's are speculation. I certainly think we are missing something important in whatever agreement took place between Aegon and Torrhen's sides. Three days of negotiation but we hear really no details? GRRM is hiding something from us. Or were the Stark's trying to buy time? Or was Aegon? Something is missing in what we know.

And certainly religion might be enough to keep a devout Targaryen princess from marring tree worshiper's, but surely not all of them were that devout! It is quite interesting that the Manderly's snagged a royal princess, even if the marriage never happened. I wonder if there was any intention of the marriage ever happening, or if the betrothal was perhaps to buy some time or pacify?

I haven't considered her change in hair being something to hide her identity, and off the top of my head I don's see how she could be related to the Targaryens (unless her mother was taken to Viserys or something, but that is really far fetched imo).

Well, when Davos visit's White Harbor, he thinks Wylla is 15, and according to calculations, she could be 15 or 16, which puts her in the general age of Jon and Daenerys and Samwell, and the rest of the children born either during or near the end of Robert's Rebellion. She could be one of our missing possible Targaryen children who has been placed in a safe place and raised (either with or without knowledge) of who she really is. Why is her hair dyed, and why is it dyed green? That is not normal for Westerosi nobility, and it's not something we see in the north either. It's an outlier, for sure.

As for how GRRM has Davos describe Wylla's hair, it's noted to be "garish green". Garish is only used three times in the main novels, and the other time it's tied to the color green, it's when Tyrion notes during the battle of Blackwater that "The sky was red and orange and garish green". In the World Book the word garish is used to describe all the dyes used by the Tyroshi. Anyway, I think GRRM is going out of his way to make a point about Wylla's hair color.

I agree that Wylla herself is too young to be part of any plot, I am not so sure about her sister. It definitely seem like Wyman holds his cards close to this chest, so I doubt many know of his plans.

I was just rereading the Harvest feast in Clash and comparing it to Wyman's behavior at Winterfell when the Bolton's are in charge. His behavior is pretty much the same, and I think it seems like he is trying to fool the Bolton's with his loyalty while working to tear them down. I see no reason to suspect he wasn't doing the very same thing with the Stark's from the minute that Robb marched south, and perhaps even as far back as when Ned traveling south with Robert.

I want Wylla Manderly to be loyal (I find her quite likable), and I see no signs that she is aware of what I suspect from her grandfather. But they could all be in on some plot to remove the Stark's from power in the north.