Post by stdaga on Dec 14, 2019 17:32:36 GMT
It has been months and months since I have worked on one of these chapter rereads. I had gone through this chapter a couple times in the past and have the notes to prove it, but I think I felt a bit daunted by all the information in this chapter. It's full of hints of the past and parentage, Ned and Cersei's stunning talk in the godswood, the imagery surrounding the whole chapter. And it's not just parentage, but I will try to focus on that and see if I even can get back into any sort of rhythm in deciphering these chapters.
Here we go... I am going to try to stick to the order that the text reads in the chapter, so I might rehash some of the clues that I think lie within the text.
We open the chapter with Ned, crabby with pain, and being a bit of a smart ass. A leg injury that seems to be healing but giving Ned some deal of pain, that he is treating either with Milk of the Poppy, which helps the pain but makes him sleepy and groggy, or honeyed wine, which has lesser effects but doesn't treat his pain as well. This seems to be quite similar to what we will later see with Jon Snow. A leg injury, pain, smart assed comments and treatment that includes wine medicated with Milk of the Poppy.
I think very few people in the fandom can deny the similarities we see between Ned Stark and Jon Snow. The looks are undeniable, the solemn, long face, but there are also behaviors that are so similar. The debate has gone on for years if this is nature versus nurture. Certainly, Jon can be like Ned, because Ned raised him, taught him, guided him to manhood. Jon often will think of things Ned said or did with his bannermen and use this as a guide for himself. The looks can also be argued in a way that might not connect Jon as being Ned's son, but as a nephew. A shared family genetic trait, for all the people who see Jon as the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, or even people who see Jon as the possible son of Brandon and Ashara, although the son of Lyanna is the strongest vibe I get from the fandom. In this case, her Stark DNA would have won out, as no one who looks at Jon ever thinks of him as being anything other than a Stark, and more of a Stark in looks than the children Ned had with Cat.
Like Ned, Jon is heavily affected by the Milk of the Poppy, to the point that he get's used to having wine for breakfast, even if it's not dosed with opiates. Edd Tollett even makes a point to serve Jon water when he asks for mulled wine. We never see this in Ned, the need or urge to want a bracing drink so early in the day, but we do see it with Robert Baratheon, a man who could very will turn out to be Jon's father. The timeline will always be an argument for people against this option, but honestly the timeline is more than vague, and so is Jon's birth date. An argument against Robert would be that Jon also looks nothing like a Baratheon, no black hair, no stunning blue eyes, and no one comments on Jon having any great height or strength (minus a couple berserker moments). But if one can see the possibility of Rhaegar being Jon's father while passing on no physical traits, then they should not argue that Robert could not potentially be Jon's father, with the same lack of physical traits. Of course, a big deal is made of the Baratheon looks in this story and how they are passed down, but Ned's research focuses on Lannister's or women with yellow hair, like Gendry's mother. Ned also knows what Mya's mother looked like, although that is never revealed to us, I would bet she is fair. Robert Baratheon is certainly an option in this parentage soup.
Ned is quite clear in his thought process that he owes Sansa's childlike outburst to the moment of clarity for him, when he realized that not only was Robert Baratheon not the father of Cersei's children, because they are "nothing like that drunken old king" after having made a point just moments before how Joffrey is a golden lion and nothing like a the stag. Sansa in her own way recognizes that a child should have attributes of both parents and she means to give Joffrey children that are lions and wolves. Except Joffrey, as a Baratheon, should be a stag, or at least have some stag-like attributes. Of course, he is not. He is more Lannister than any Lannister we meet, except perhaps Myrcella and Tommen, who share his exact parentage.
Now, this argument could work for Jon as well. We are told he has "more of the north" in him than his brother's, he seems to be a carbon copy of a young Eddard Stark in looks, and in behavior he is quite like Ned. So, if Jon has one northern parent, a Stark parent being Lyanna (which many suspect) or Eddard (which we are told in the text) then who is Jon's other parent who leaves so little of themselves in Jon? I will circle back to this a bit later.
Interestingly, Ned refers to this knowledge/truth as "the sword that killed Jon Arryn" and he recognizes the danger he and his daughters are in. He is making efforts to get his daughters out of Kings Landing, and knows that once they are safe, he will have to act.
Littlefinger pops in to be his snarky self and delivers some information to Ned about the Lannister's gathering forces at Casterly Rock, but mostly he makes a deal of the lineage book that Ned is reading, the one that Jon Arryn was looking into at the time of his death. Of course, we know that Littlefinger must have suspected what Jon Arryn knew, but I don't think that is why Littlefinger orchestrated Jon Arryn's death. Still, I think that Littlefinger is well aware that Ned might be close to figuring this little mystery out. Jon Arryn had to die, and perhaps this is the same reason that Littlefinger felt that Ned needed to die? Although why Littlefinger doesn't want this truth known is questionable.
We get the information about Lannister/Baratheon matches in the past, with the gold always yielding to the coal. It's not outright proof but it's highly suspicious that Cersei then bore hair of gold children when she should have born babes with hair of coal. Of course, we the reader, understands that Bran caught Jaime and Cersei having sex, but for her to be so foolish as to have born her brother's children? Of course, we will later see it's more of Cersei's immense sense of pride that lead to his choice, although it was certainly foolish.
Another bit of information that Littlefinger drops into the conversation is Robert's current hunt.
A white hart in mythos is a rare and beautiful thing. I have argued before that a hart is a male stag, while a hind is a female, but for this purpose, I want to argue that the white hind that Robert went hunting but didn't get, was in fact Lyanna Stark. He wanted her, he hunted her, but something got to her first. A hind because it's a stag represented with antlers, like the Baratheon sigil. In the above quote, it's not a lion or a dragon that get's the white hind, it's "some wolves". I find it interesting that it's plural and not singular, but I do think this could be a hint of Starkcest. And not just one wolf, but more than one wolf. Hmm! Although I recognize that there is no reason to think of Lyanna, our she-wolf, as a stag of any gender, but it's clear that Robert cherished her, and that he wished to make her a stag by marrying her, prized and special. And that would make her both pure and precious in Robert's gaze. We do see Jon Snow being gifted with a white wolf, perhaps a tie to his mother, if Lyanna is represented by white.
But all that is left to Robert is a hoof and an horn. I can't get a grasp on what the hoof and horn reference could mean and I would love to hear other people's input on this.
Then we have Ned telling us he had dreamed of Rhaegar's children.
Many people will argue that Jon Snow is Rheagar's child, and although I thought that for quite some time, it's been years since I interpreted the text in that way. I simply think GRRM is too dynamic and tricky of a writer for that simple answer. This quote is quite interesting because it's an internal thought of Ned's and he is thinking of Rheagar's children, and he thinks of Rheanys and Aegon, and he thinks of their deaths. He doesn't hint in this thoughts that another child has somehow lived on, certainly not one he raised in his own household. Now, perhaps if GRRM had used the wording "he had dreamt of Rheagar's murdered children" or something to indicate that he is thinking of children that have died and that other children of Rheagar's might have lived, but Ned's thoughts and dreams clearly indicate that the children of Rheagar's that he thinks of are the only two we know of, the dead children in a Lannister cloak, andleaving no hints of a hidden prince or bastard of any sort. I think this is a clear hint that IF Rheagar had other children, Ned didn't know about it. Therefore he isn't raising a son of Rhaegar Targaryen's. Granted, what seems to clear to me has certainly been interpreted by other's in a much different way.
I will say, this idea of Ned thinking of Rhaegar's only children as Rhaenys and Aegon throw a bind in my idea that Daenerys is Rhaegar's third child, which I have suspected for quite some time. Because I certainly think Ned is some way responsible for Dany's safe exile from the Seven Kingdoms. But that's a topic for another day.
We are also given the idea that it is quite important to Ned Stark that he not let children be murdered again, and that is the driving force for attempting to give Cersei a chance to flee with her children. To give those children a chance to live, a chance that Rhaenys and Aegon did not have.
We also get an interesting hint that Rhaegar could be Jon's father, and while I don't believe this to be the case, I am certainly not blind to the hints.
So, Ned thinks of how merciful that Robert Baratheon could be, and he names several men whom Robert had fought against in the Rebellion, as well as Balon Greyjoy, who had rebelled against Robert's reign years after the Targaryen's fell, but we are also told that there were things that Robert would not, could not forgive. And he links that to Rhaegar. Of course, Rheagar supposedly kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. This seems to be a common thought in the realm, as well as in Robert's own words earlier in the text. Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and this betrayal was unforgivable. Ned likens this betrayal to Cersei cuckholding Robert and bearing him three false heirs. So, following this train of thought, does that mean that Robert also could not forgive Rhaegar putting a child in Lyanna? Of course, in Robert's thoughts, he doesn't blame Lyanna, only Rheagar. While in Ned's thoughts, he thinks Robert will blame Cersei and her children, as well as Jaime and the rest of the Lannisters. So, is this a hint that the one thing that Robert cannot forgive his being cheated on? It's doesn't directly link to a possible Rhaegar/Lyanna child and it's fate if Robert had found such a child, but it does lay out the possibility of this very thing. But, if this occurred, is this child Jon Snow? Someone else? It also negates the idea that Ned just had by dreaming of Rhaegar's "children" and then only thinking of Rhaenys and Aegon.
From here, we move to the godwood, where Ned feels the presence of his gods, even though this heart tree is neither a weirwood nor does it have a face. Still, Ned seems to feel that no man can lie in front of a heart tree, and this might be the reason he wants to confront Cersei here. And she comes to him, dressed quite simply in green and brown and Ned thinks of how he can see her beauty, something that he hasn't seen for a long time. There is some interesting intimacy, as Ned touches her bruised cheek and Cersei shies away from his touch. This seems oddly familiar behavior from Ned Stark toward the Queen of the realm, a woman he clearly doesn't like very much. And later she will reciprocate that touch by touching Ned's leg, his face, his hair. She is clearly trying to leverage him to her side, but why does Cersei think that the honorable Ned Stark would fall for such lusts? Not that it really matters to parentage (although I have in the past dreamed up that Jon is the child of Ned and Cersei) but I do wonder if Ned and Cersei knew each other quite well before or during the rebellion. Intimately, even? Well enough that he gently touches her and she will gently touch him back. I find this quite stands out to me in the text. However, it's a diversion from the parentage mystery and I apologize.
So, it is Cersei that brings Jaime into the conversation and Ned's reaction is to ask "Your brother?" "Or your lover?, to which she honestly replies "both" and Ned notes that she does not flinch from the truth. I think his choice of "flinch from the truth" is interesting, perhaps because the majority of people in the world would feel shame for this incest, but not Cersei, and we will later see, Jaime feels no shame about this either.
I have seen the argument from people that Ned is guessing in these questions, because a question mark is used. Yes, there is a question mark. There are two actually. One follow's "Or your lover" but one also follow's "Your brother". And while it could be unclear if Ned knew if Jaime was certainly Cersei's lover, he certainly knows that Jaime is Cersei's brother... and he uses a question mark for this as well. I think that Ned poses these as questions but they are in fact statements. Brother, statement! Lover, statement! Ned already knows because he figured it out when Sansa spoke in the previous chapter. Not only is Joffrey nothing like Robert, he is very much a lion, like his mother, but also like his father. Jaime and Cersei are said to look quite a bit alike, so Joffrey's features could indeed mimic Cersei's but also mimic Jaime's. (In this way, Jon look like Ned. Jon also looks like Arya, who we are told looks like Lyanna! which could be an important parallel in the story) Anyway, I think Ned knew and was testing Cersei's honesty in front of the heart tree. For whatever reason, she doesn't attempt to lie, but she boldly embraces the truth. She is not ashamed of her choice. The choice of having bastard children with her brother, a children that look so very much like Lannister's it can only make sense as to why we see no other genetic's in their faces or descriptions.
Could this be a hint at Jon Snow, who "has more of the north in him" than his trueborn brother's born of Ned and Cat? Personally, I think it's a damn fine hint of Starkcest. And Ned could come to this understanding with Jaime and Cersei's children because he is aware it happened in his own family. I am not going to delve into which Stark planted the seed right now, but since GRRM is telling us this story in parallel's and echo's, it makes sense to me that Lyanna could have had a child with a brother, just as Cersei has had children with her own brother.
This passage also gives us the line, "If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?" I have heard the argument multiple times that this is Ned listing the children of his body and not including Jon Snow, therefore Jon cannot be Ned's biologic son, but I disagree. What Ned technically says when naming the children of his marriage with Cat is not the children of his body, but "the life of some child I did not know". What does that mean? Ned certainly know's Jon Snow, he has raised him as his bastard son, for all the north to see, for the last 14 years. Of course he "know's" Jon Snow, just like he knows Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon. However, what I think is unclear to Ned is how he would react if the lives of his children with Cat were threatened, a question he is wondering about with Cersei and her own children. But with Jon, who I really think is Ned's son, I think Ned doesn't have to ask this question about, because I think he already knows how he would react if Jon Snow was threatened, and I think it culminates with Ashara falling from that tower. The distinction in this passage is Catelyn drawing a line between the children of her own body and Jon Snow. It's not Ned's children by Cat that are at risk, it's Ned's child by a woman other than Catelyn that would be at risk if the truth was known.
And to make this a little clearer, he then makes a point to separate Jon Snow as at risk if Catelyn knew the truth of Jon's parentage. He doesn't want to know how Cat would react or what she would do. Just as Cersei doesn't want to think her children's life would be forfeit because they were bastards born of incest. But both Ned and Cersei have a pretty good understanding of how the world will react to these children, and it will probably not be in a kind way. But Ned is kind to Cersei and her children. Possibly it's because he is a good man who understands the children are not to blame for the choice of their parents, but I think it could also be because he recognizes this same answer surrounding Jon Snow.
A couple things stand out. Ned asks himself how everyone could have been so blind? He obviously thinks that based on the looks of Cersei's children, who look ALL Lannister, that people should have suspected the truth. I think this should be us asking ourselves this question, and not about Joffrey and Myrcella and Tommen, but about Jon Snow. Jon Snow, who looks ALL Stark!
Interestingly, Ned expresses that he felt sick. But this is quite vague. Sick in what way? Sick from the incest and the children it produced? Doubtful, since Ned's reaction is quite gentle with Cersei at this point, and he is still quite willing to help her save her children, children that most people would call abominations (I am looking at you, Stannis!) but that Ned never thinks of them in this way. No, he is almost weirdly understanding of this stunning reveal. Perhaps he is sick because he because he see's the past repeating, and knows how painful this reveal could be for the children of such relationships. After all, Stark's and Lannister's are not Targaryen's, and therefore should not even feel the urge to procreate with a sibling. It's pretty ishy by our world standings. But GRRM is not afraid to push boundaries, and certainly incest is a theme in several world mythologies, and children of such unions are sometimes great hero's, who overcome in spite of the circumstances of their birth. GRRM likes to toy and reuse myths and legends and I don't see why he would not do that here!
I can also see how GRRM would like us to revile the Lannister's for their choices and actions in the story but to show us in the end, that the Stark's are not so different, and for those people who see Jon Snow as some great hero, will they still feel that way when it's revealed that he is a child born of incest, a Stark more Stark than the rest of Eddard's children.
Cersei will then call our attention to Jon Snow by throwing Ned's own bastard right in his face. She questions who the mother is, but really she hints at why it needs to be such a secret. And why does it need to be a secret? Yes, if looking at RLJ, it makes sense to keep Jon Snow as the son of Rhaegar as a secret from Robert. But Ned never seems to think that Jon, or any child he raised at Winterfell is at risk from Robert. But it also makes sense to keep Jon's parentage a secret if he is a bastard born of incest, and abomination, something that Catelyn introduces to us, as children that neither the Faith of the Seven nor the old gods would see as anything but an abomination. The secret of Cersei's children is tied to the secret of Ned's child who is born of a mother that he will not name.
Of course, Ned could and should have just made up some name, which he does seem to do with Robert, but to make this a general none issue, he should have invented a lie and gave Jon Snow a name to call his mother. But for some reason, Ned doesn't do this, and he let's the issue linger. It bother's Cat and it bother's Jon. No easy answers from Eddard Stark in this case.
I also will say that if Starkcest turns out to be the answer, and I fully understand that it might not, that Cersei blindly makes accusations to Ned about who Jon's mother might be, while completely missing the obvious that Lyanna is Jon's mother by Eddard (or Brandon or Benjen), even after her just minutes before admitting her own incest children with her brother. This is the smug and arrogant blindness that will be Cersei's downfall later in the story. "How could they all be so blind?" While Cersei is not blind to her own choices, she is certainly blind to the very thought that Jon Snow could be a child of incest. She doesn't even seem to consider it for a moment. She will later use this as ammunition against Selyse Florent Baratheon, but it's obviously a false narrative. Ironic if she never suspects this is the possible truth of the secret of Jon Snow's birth!
Of course, I have already stated that I find it ironic that Cersei never thinks to throw incest in Ned's face, even if she doesn't think it's true, just as she does with the lie she attempts to spread about Shireen Baratheon. She however does let us know that she has thought about Ned's bastard and is aware of some gossip or rumor surrounding this concept. A Dornish peasant? A whore? A grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? I think in this last line, Cersei almost has it. A sister! Only it's Ned's own sister Lyanna, not Arthur Dayne's sister Ashara. I know many people will shoot down this idea, but to me it seems so cleverly laid out in the text, once you see it, you can't unsee it. It's like a wordsearch puzzle and you just keep seeing the same word over and over and over again. Because once you see it, it's so obviously the answer.
And to all of these accusations, which include some possible mother's as well as killing of children by the Lannister's (also, Jaime helping Cersei abort Robert's child) and Cersei talking about her own bastards by her own brother, the first and only thing that Ned denies is "I do not kill children."
That's it. The only comparison that he denies about himself versus Jaime and Cersei. "I do not kill children"! He damn well should have said, "Well, I don't kill children, nor do I attempt to murder them, nor to I have sex that leads to children with my sister". But that never comes up. Only that Ned feels a little sick and that the idea of Lyanna makes him think of pale blue roses and he wants to weep. An interesting reaction from Eddard Stark.
ETA: As to Arthur Dayne, he is not mentioned outright in this chapter, but is certainly hinted at in this passage. The concept of SAD underlies this passage as a man whose sister would grieve for, almost a silent, ghostly message in this chapter as something to pay attention to. Ironically, a sister who might grieve for Arthur Dayne is most obviosly Ashara Dayne, but perhaps silent and subtly in the idea that another sister that might grieve for the fallen knight is Lyanna Stark, a sister of Eddard Stark. When Cersei has a "ghost of a smile" on her lips, it draws my attention to Jon's direwolve Ghost, and find that this could be a hint of Jon's parentage, written very much between the lines.
I think this chapter has hints of Robert and Lyanna=Jon, as well as hints of Rhaegar and Lyanna=Jon, and even the mention of Arthur Dayne could steer us toward the possibility of Arthur and Lyanna=Jon, but to me, the overwhelming clues lie with Starkcest: Version Ned and Lyanna, although I think Brandon is a valid option in this puzzle. Benjen too, although this doesn't feel right to me.
There are other delightful hints in this chapter, but I really, really, really tried hard to stick to parentage and not just how much other foreshadowing is involved in this chapter. I have to say, this chapter, most especially Ned and Cersei's interaction in the godswood is one of my most favorite scenes from this story!
Here we go... I am going to try to stick to the order that the text reads in the chapter, so I might rehash some of the clues that I think lie within the text.
We open the chapter with Ned, crabby with pain, and being a bit of a smart ass. A leg injury that seems to be healing but giving Ned some deal of pain, that he is treating either with Milk of the Poppy, which helps the pain but makes him sleepy and groggy, or honeyed wine, which has lesser effects but doesn't treat his pain as well. This seems to be quite similar to what we will later see with Jon Snow. A leg injury, pain, smart assed comments and treatment that includes wine medicated with Milk of the Poppy.
I think very few people in the fandom can deny the similarities we see between Ned Stark and Jon Snow. The looks are undeniable, the solemn, long face, but there are also behaviors that are so similar. The debate has gone on for years if this is nature versus nurture. Certainly, Jon can be like Ned, because Ned raised him, taught him, guided him to manhood. Jon often will think of things Ned said or did with his bannermen and use this as a guide for himself. The looks can also be argued in a way that might not connect Jon as being Ned's son, but as a nephew. A shared family genetic trait, for all the people who see Jon as the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, or even people who see Jon as the possible son of Brandon and Ashara, although the son of Lyanna is the strongest vibe I get from the fandom. In this case, her Stark DNA would have won out, as no one who looks at Jon ever thinks of him as being anything other than a Stark, and more of a Stark in looks than the children Ned had with Cat.
"You have more of the north in you than your brothers." AGOT-Jon I
Like Ned, Jon is heavily affected by the Milk of the Poppy, to the point that he get's used to having wine for breakfast, even if it's not dosed with opiates. Edd Tollett even makes a point to serve Jon water when he asks for mulled wine. We never see this in Ned, the need or urge to want a bracing drink so early in the day, but we do see it with Robert Baratheon, a man who could very will turn out to be Jon's father. The timeline will always be an argument for people against this option, but honestly the timeline is more than vague, and so is Jon's birth date. An argument against Robert would be that Jon also looks nothing like a Baratheon, no black hair, no stunning blue eyes, and no one comments on Jon having any great height or strength (minus a couple berserker moments). But if one can see the possibility of Rhaegar being Jon's father while passing on no physical traits, then they should not argue that Robert could not potentially be Jon's father, with the same lack of physical traits. Of course, a big deal is made of the Baratheon looks in this story and how they are passed down, but Ned's research focuses on Lannister's or women with yellow hair, like Gendry's mother. Ned also knows what Mya's mother looked like, although that is never revealed to us, I would bet she is fair. Robert Baratheon is certainly an option in this parentage soup.
Ned is quite clear in his thought process that he owes Sansa's childlike outburst to the moment of clarity for him, when he realized that not only was Robert Baratheon not the father of Cersei's children, because they are "nothing like that drunken old king" after having made a point just moments before how Joffrey is a golden lion and nothing like a the stag. Sansa in her own way recognizes that a child should have attributes of both parents and she means to give Joffrey children that are lions and wolves. Except Joffrey, as a Baratheon, should be a stag, or at least have some stag-like attributes. Of course, he is not. He is more Lannister than any Lannister we meet, except perhaps Myrcella and Tommen, who share his exact parentage.
Now, this argument could work for Jon as well. We are told he has "more of the north" in him than his brother's, he seems to be a carbon copy of a young Eddard Stark in looks, and in behavior he is quite like Ned. So, if Jon has one northern parent, a Stark parent being Lyanna (which many suspect) or Eddard (which we are told in the text) then who is Jon's other parent who leaves so little of themselves in Jon? I will circle back to this a bit later.
Interestingly, Ned refers to this knowledge/truth as "the sword that killed Jon Arryn" and he recognizes the danger he and his daughters are in. He is making efforts to get his daughters out of Kings Landing, and knows that once they are safe, he will have to act.
Littlefinger pops in to be his snarky self and delivers some information to Ned about the Lannister's gathering forces at Casterly Rock, but mostly he makes a deal of the lineage book that Ned is reading, the one that Jon Arryn was looking into at the time of his death. Of course, we know that Littlefinger must have suspected what Jon Arryn knew, but I don't think that is why Littlefinger orchestrated Jon Arryn's death. Still, I think that Littlefinger is well aware that Ned might be close to figuring this little mystery out. Jon Arryn had to die, and perhaps this is the same reason that Littlefinger felt that Ned needed to die? Although why Littlefinger doesn't want this truth known is questionable.
We get the information about Lannister/Baratheon matches in the past, with the gold always yielding to the coal. It's not outright proof but it's highly suspicious that Cersei then bore hair of gold children when she should have born babes with hair of coal. Of course, we the reader, understands that Bran caught Jaime and Cersei having sex, but for her to be so foolish as to have born her brother's children? Of course, we will later see it's more of Cersei's immense sense of pride that lead to his choice, although it was certainly foolish.
Another bit of information that Littlefinger drops into the conversation is Robert's current hunt.
"Given his preferences, I believe he'd stay in the forest until you and the queen both die of old age," Lord Petyr replied with a faint smile. "Lacking that, I imagine he'll return as soon as he's killed something. They found the white hart, it seems … or rather, what remained of it. Some wolves found it first, and left His Grace scarcely more than a hoof and a horn. Robert was in a fury, until he heard talk of some monstrous boar deeper in the forest. Then nothing would do but he must have it. Prince Joffrey returned this morning, with the Royces, Ser Balon Swann, and some twenty others of the party. The rest are still with the king." AGOT-Eddard XII
A white hart in mythos is a rare and beautiful thing. I have argued before that a hart is a male stag, while a hind is a female, but for this purpose, I want to argue that the white hind that Robert went hunting but didn't get, was in fact Lyanna Stark. He wanted her, he hunted her, but something got to her first. A hind because it's a stag represented with antlers, like the Baratheon sigil. In the above quote, it's not a lion or a dragon that get's the white hind, it's "some wolves". I find it interesting that it's plural and not singular, but I do think this could be a hint of Starkcest. And not just one wolf, but more than one wolf. Hmm! Although I recognize that there is no reason to think of Lyanna, our she-wolf, as a stag of any gender, but it's clear that Robert cherished her, and that he wished to make her a stag by marrying her, prized and special. And that would make her both pure and precious in Robert's gaze. We do see Jon Snow being gifted with a white wolf, perhaps a tie to his mother, if Lyanna is represented by white.
But all that is left to Robert is a hoof and an horn. I can't get a grasp on what the hoof and horn reference could mean and I would love to hear other people's input on this.
Then we have Ned telling us he had dreamed of Rhaegar's children.
Yet last night he had dreamt of Rhaegar's children. Lord Tywin had laid the bodies beneath the Iron Throne, wrapped in the crimson cloaks of his house guard. That was clever of him; the blood did not show so badly against the red cloth. The little princess had been barefoot, still dressed in her bed gown, and the boy … the boy …
Ned could not let that happen again. The realm could not withstand a second mad king, another dance of blood and vengeance. He must find some way to save the children. AGOT-Eddard XII
Ned could not let that happen again. The realm could not withstand a second mad king, another dance of blood and vengeance. He must find some way to save the children. AGOT-Eddard XII
Many people will argue that Jon Snow is Rheagar's child, and although I thought that for quite some time, it's been years since I interpreted the text in that way. I simply think GRRM is too dynamic and tricky of a writer for that simple answer. This quote is quite interesting because it's an internal thought of Ned's and he is thinking of Rheagar's children, and he thinks of Rheanys and Aegon, and he thinks of their deaths. He doesn't hint in this thoughts that another child has somehow lived on, certainly not one he raised in his own household. Now, perhaps if GRRM had used the wording "he had dreamt of Rheagar's murdered children" or something to indicate that he is thinking of children that have died and that other children of Rheagar's might have lived, but Ned's thoughts and dreams clearly indicate that the children of Rheagar's that he thinks of are the only two we know of, the dead children in a Lannister cloak, andleaving no hints of a hidden prince or bastard of any sort. I think this is a clear hint that IF Rheagar had other children, Ned didn't know about it. Therefore he isn't raising a son of Rhaegar Targaryen's. Granted, what seems to clear to me has certainly been interpreted by other's in a much different way.
I will say, this idea of Ned thinking of Rhaegar's only children as Rhaenys and Aegon throw a bind in my idea that Daenerys is Rhaegar's third child, which I have suspected for quite some time. Because I certainly think Ned is some way responsible for Dany's safe exile from the Seven Kingdoms. But that's a topic for another day.
We are also given the idea that it is quite important to Ned Stark that he not let children be murdered again, and that is the driving force for attempting to give Cersei a chance to flee with her children. To give those children a chance to live, a chance that Rhaenys and Aegon did not have.
We also get an interesting hint that Rhaegar could be Jon's father, and while I don't believe this to be the case, I am certainly not blind to the hints.
Robert could be merciful. Ser Barristan was scarcely the only man he had pardoned. Grand Maester Pycelle, Varys the Spider, Lord Balon Greyjoy; each had been counted an enemy to Robert once, and each had been welcomed into friendship and allowed to retain honors and office for a pledge of fealty. So long as a man was brave and honest, Robert would treat him with all the honor and respect due a valiant enemy.
This was something else: poison in the dark, a knife thrust to the soul. This he could never forgive, no more than he had forgiven Rhaegar. He will kill them all, Ned realized. AGOT-Eddard XII
This was something else: poison in the dark, a knife thrust to the soul. This he could never forgive, no more than he had forgiven Rhaegar. He will kill them all, Ned realized. AGOT-Eddard XII
So, Ned thinks of how merciful that Robert Baratheon could be, and he names several men whom Robert had fought against in the Rebellion, as well as Balon Greyjoy, who had rebelled against Robert's reign years after the Targaryen's fell, but we are also told that there were things that Robert would not, could not forgive. And he links that to Rhaegar. Of course, Rheagar supposedly kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. This seems to be a common thought in the realm, as well as in Robert's own words earlier in the text. Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and this betrayal was unforgivable. Ned likens this betrayal to Cersei cuckholding Robert and bearing him three false heirs. So, following this train of thought, does that mean that Robert also could not forgive Rhaegar putting a child in Lyanna? Of course, in Robert's thoughts, he doesn't blame Lyanna, only Rheagar. While in Ned's thoughts, he thinks Robert will blame Cersei and her children, as well as Jaime and the rest of the Lannisters. So, is this a hint that the one thing that Robert cannot forgive his being cheated on? It's doesn't directly link to a possible Rhaegar/Lyanna child and it's fate if Robert had found such a child, but it does lay out the possibility of this very thing. But, if this occurred, is this child Jon Snow? Someone else? It also negates the idea that Ned just had by dreaming of Rhaegar's "children" and then only thinking of Rhaenys and Aegon.
From here, we move to the godwood, where Ned feels the presence of his gods, even though this heart tree is neither a weirwood nor does it have a face. Still, Ned seems to feel that no man can lie in front of a heart tree, and this might be the reason he wants to confront Cersei here. And she comes to him, dressed quite simply in green and brown and Ned thinks of how he can see her beauty, something that he hasn't seen for a long time. There is some interesting intimacy, as Ned touches her bruised cheek and Cersei shies away from his touch. This seems oddly familiar behavior from Ned Stark toward the Queen of the realm, a woman he clearly doesn't like very much. And later she will reciprocate that touch by touching Ned's leg, his face, his hair. She is clearly trying to leverage him to her side, but why does Cersei think that the honorable Ned Stark would fall for such lusts? Not that it really matters to parentage (although I have in the past dreamed up that Jon is the child of Ned and Cersei) but I do wonder if Ned and Cersei knew each other quite well before or during the rebellion. Intimately, even? Well enough that he gently touches her and she will gently touch him back. I find this quite stands out to me in the text. However, it's a diversion from the parentage mystery and I apologize.
"If you truly believed that, you would never have come." Ned touched her cheek gently. "Has he done this before?"
"Once or twice." She shied away from his hand. "Never on the face before. Jaime would have killed him, even if it meant his own life." Cersei looked at him defiantly. "My brother is worth a hundred of your friend."
"Your brother?" Ned said. "Or your lover?"
"Both." She did not flinch from the truth. "Since we were children together. And why not? The Targaryens wed brother to sister for three hundred years, to keep the bloodlines pure. And Jaime and I are more than brother and sister. We are one person in two bodies. We shared a womb together. He came into this world holding my foot, our old maester said. When he is in me, I feel … whole." The ghost of a smile flitted over her lips.
"My son Bran …"
To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"
Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."
"No less do I love mine."
Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.
"All three are Jaime's," he said. It was not a question.
"Thank the gods."
The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal. AGOT-Eddard XII
"Once or twice." She shied away from his hand. "Never on the face before. Jaime would have killed him, even if it meant his own life." Cersei looked at him defiantly. "My brother is worth a hundred of your friend."
"Your brother?" Ned said. "Or your lover?"
"Both." She did not flinch from the truth. "Since we were children together. And why not? The Targaryens wed brother to sister for three hundred years, to keep the bloodlines pure. And Jaime and I are more than brother and sister. We are one person in two bodies. We shared a womb together. He came into this world holding my foot, our old maester said. When he is in me, I feel … whole." The ghost of a smile flitted over her lips.
"My son Bran …"
To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"
Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."
"No less do I love mine."
Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.
"All three are Jaime's," he said. It was not a question.
"Thank the gods."
The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal. AGOT-Eddard XII
So, it is Cersei that brings Jaime into the conversation and Ned's reaction is to ask "Your brother?" "Or your lover?, to which she honestly replies "both" and Ned notes that she does not flinch from the truth. I think his choice of "flinch from the truth" is interesting, perhaps because the majority of people in the world would feel shame for this incest, but not Cersei, and we will later see, Jaime feels no shame about this either.
I have seen the argument from people that Ned is guessing in these questions, because a question mark is used. Yes, there is a question mark. There are two actually. One follow's "Or your lover" but one also follow's "Your brother". And while it could be unclear if Ned knew if Jaime was certainly Cersei's lover, he certainly knows that Jaime is Cersei's brother... and he uses a question mark for this as well. I think that Ned poses these as questions but they are in fact statements. Brother, statement! Lover, statement! Ned already knows because he figured it out when Sansa spoke in the previous chapter. Not only is Joffrey nothing like Robert, he is very much a lion, like his mother, but also like his father. Jaime and Cersei are said to look quite a bit alike, so Joffrey's features could indeed mimic Cersei's but also mimic Jaime's. (In this way, Jon look like Ned. Jon also looks like Arya, who we are told looks like Lyanna! which could be an important parallel in the story) Anyway, I think Ned knew and was testing Cersei's honesty in front of the heart tree. For whatever reason, she doesn't attempt to lie, but she boldly embraces the truth. She is not ashamed of her choice. The choice of having bastard children with her brother, a children that look so very much like Lannister's it can only make sense as to why we see no other genetic's in their faces or descriptions.
Could this be a hint at Jon Snow, who "has more of the north in him" than his trueborn brother's born of Ned and Cat? Personally, I think it's a damn fine hint of Starkcest. And Ned could come to this understanding with Jaime and Cersei's children because he is aware it happened in his own family. I am not going to delve into which Stark planted the seed right now, but since GRRM is telling us this story in parallel's and echo's, it makes sense to me that Lyanna could have had a child with a brother, just as Cersei has had children with her own brother.
This passage also gives us the line, "If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?" I have heard the argument multiple times that this is Ned listing the children of his body and not including Jon Snow, therefore Jon cannot be Ned's biologic son, but I disagree. What Ned technically says when naming the children of his marriage with Cat is not the children of his body, but "the life of some child I did not know". What does that mean? Ned certainly know's Jon Snow, he has raised him as his bastard son, for all the north to see, for the last 14 years. Of course he "know's" Jon Snow, just like he knows Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon. However, what I think is unclear to Ned is how he would react if the lives of his children with Cat were threatened, a question he is wondering about with Cersei and her own children. But with Jon, who I really think is Ned's son, I think Ned doesn't have to ask this question about, because I think he already knows how he would react if Jon Snow was threatened, and I think it culminates with Ashara falling from that tower. The distinction in this passage is Catelyn drawing a line between the children of her own body and Jon Snow. It's not Ned's children by Cat that are at risk, it's Ned's child by a woman other than Catelyn that would be at risk if the truth was known.
And to make this a little clearer, he then makes a point to separate Jon Snow as at risk if Catelyn knew the truth of Jon's parentage. He doesn't want to know how Cat would react or what she would do. Just as Cersei doesn't want to think her children's life would be forfeit because they were bastards born of incest. But both Ned and Cersei have a pretty good understanding of how the world will react to these children, and it will probably not be in a kind way. But Ned is kind to Cersei and her children. Possibly it's because he is a good man who understands the children are not to blame for the choice of their parents, but I think it could also be because he recognizes this same answer surrounding Jon Snow.
How could they have all been so blind? The truth was there in front of them all the time, written on the children's faces. Ned felt sick. "I remember Robert as he was the day he took the throne, every inch a king," he said quietly. "A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?"
Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna."
Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. "I do not know which of you I pity most." AGOT-Eddard XII
Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna."
Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. "I do not know which of you I pity most." AGOT-Eddard XII
A couple things stand out. Ned asks himself how everyone could have been so blind? He obviously thinks that based on the looks of Cersei's children, who look ALL Lannister, that people should have suspected the truth. I think this should be us asking ourselves this question, and not about Joffrey and Myrcella and Tommen, but about Jon Snow. Jon Snow, who looks ALL Stark!
Interestingly, Ned expresses that he felt sick. But this is quite vague. Sick in what way? Sick from the incest and the children it produced? Doubtful, since Ned's reaction is quite gentle with Cersei at this point, and he is still quite willing to help her save her children, children that most people would call abominations (I am looking at you, Stannis!) but that Ned never thinks of them in this way. No, he is almost weirdly understanding of this stunning reveal. Perhaps he is sick because he because he see's the past repeating, and knows how painful this reveal could be for the children of such relationships. After all, Stark's and Lannister's are not Targaryen's, and therefore should not even feel the urge to procreate with a sibling. It's pretty ishy by our world standings. But GRRM is not afraid to push boundaries, and certainly incest is a theme in several world mythologies, and children of such unions are sometimes great hero's, who overcome in spite of the circumstances of their birth. GRRM likes to toy and reuse myths and legends and I don't see why he would not do that here!
I can also see how GRRM would like us to revile the Lannister's for their choices and actions in the story but to show us in the end, that the Stark's are not so different, and for those people who see Jon Snow as some great hero, will they still feel that way when it's revealed that he is a child born of incest, a Stark more Stark than the rest of Eddard's children.
Cersei will then call our attention to Jon Snow by throwing Ned's own bastard right in his face. She questions who the mother is, but really she hints at why it needs to be such a secret. And why does it need to be a secret? Yes, if looking at RLJ, it makes sense to keep Jon Snow as the son of Rhaegar as a secret from Robert. But Ned never seems to think that Jon, or any child he raised at Winterfell is at risk from Robert. But it also makes sense to keep Jon's parentage a secret if he is a bastard born of incest, and abomination, something that Catelyn introduces to us, as children that neither the Faith of the Seven nor the old gods would see as anything but an abomination. The secret of Cersei's children is tied to the secret of Ned's child who is born of a mother that he will not name.
Of course, Ned could and should have just made up some name, which he does seem to do with Robert, but to make this a general none issue, he should have invented a lie and gave Jon Snow a name to call his mother. But for some reason, Ned doesn't do this, and he let's the issue linger. It bother's Cat and it bother's Jon. No easy answers from Eddard Stark in this case.
I also will say that if Starkcest turns out to be the answer, and I fully understand that it might not, that Cersei blindly makes accusations to Ned about who Jon's mother might be, while completely missing the obvious that Lyanna is Jon's mother by Eddard (or Brandon or Benjen), even after her just minutes before admitting her own incest children with her brother. This is the smug and arrogant blindness that will be Cersei's downfall later in the story. "How could they all be so blind?" While Cersei is not blind to her own choices, she is certainly blind to the very thought that Jon Snow could be a child of incest. She doesn't even seem to consider it for a moment. She will later use this as ammunition against Selyse Florent Baratheon, but it's obviously a false narrative. Ironic if she never suspects this is the possible truth of the secret of Jon Snow's birth!
"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. AGOT-Eddard XII
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. AGOT-Eddard XII
Of course, I have already stated that I find it ironic that Cersei never thinks to throw incest in Ned's face, even if she doesn't think it's true, just as she does with the lie she attempts to spread about Shireen Baratheon. She however does let us know that she has thought about Ned's bastard and is aware of some gossip or rumor surrounding this concept. A Dornish peasant? A whore? A grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? I think in this last line, Cersei almost has it. A sister! Only it's Ned's own sister Lyanna, not Arthur Dayne's sister Ashara. I know many people will shoot down this idea, but to me it seems so cleverly laid out in the text, once you see it, you can't unsee it. It's like a wordsearch puzzle and you just keep seeing the same word over and over and over again. Because once you see it, it's so obviously the answer.
And to all of these accusations, which include some possible mother's as well as killing of children by the Lannister's (also, Jaime helping Cersei abort Robert's child) and Cersei talking about her own bastards by her own brother, the first and only thing that Ned denies is "I do not kill children."
That's it. The only comparison that he denies about himself versus Jaime and Cersei. "I do not kill children"! He damn well should have said, "Well, I don't kill children, nor do I attempt to murder them, nor to I have sex that leads to children with my sister". But that never comes up. Only that Ned feels a little sick and that the idea of Lyanna makes him think of pale blue roses and he wants to weep. An interesting reaction from Eddard Stark.
ETA: As to Arthur Dayne, he is not mentioned outright in this chapter, but is certainly hinted at in this passage. The concept of SAD underlies this passage as a man whose sister would grieve for, almost a silent, ghostly message in this chapter as something to pay attention to. Ironically, a sister who might grieve for Arthur Dayne is most obviosly Ashara Dayne, but perhaps silent and subtly in the idea that another sister that might grieve for the fallen knight is Lyanna Stark, a sister of Eddard Stark. When Cersei has a "ghost of a smile" on her lips, it draws my attention to Jon's direwolve Ghost, and find that this could be a hint of Jon's parentage, written very much between the lines.
I think this chapter has hints of Robert and Lyanna=Jon, as well as hints of Rhaegar and Lyanna=Jon, and even the mention of Arthur Dayne could steer us toward the possibility of Arthur and Lyanna=Jon, but to me, the overwhelming clues lie with Starkcest: Version Ned and Lyanna, although I think Brandon is a valid option in this puzzle. Benjen too, although this doesn't feel right to me.
There are other delightful hints in this chapter, but I really, really, really tried hard to stick to parentage and not just how much other foreshadowing is involved in this chapter. I have to say, this chapter, most especially Ned and Cersei's interaction in the godswood is one of my most favorite scenes from this story!