Post by danl on Jan 14, 2020 22:41:01 GMT
If it turns out to be Arthur Dayne, then Jon's hints about a sword and his need to practice and become a great swordsman make sense, also perhaps the idea of a sworn brother being tempted by the love of a woman.
SAD is really a big mystery. We have several glimpses, but more questions than answers, I think
I think the parallel's could go multiple ways, but one thing that will never change is Jon's resemblance to Eddard Stark, although it might turn out the Stark look comes from a Stark other than Eddard or Lyanna.
On way or another, Jon is a Stark of the North. Maybe not Ned's, but every clue we have says Jon is recognizable as a Stark, and as Ned's son.
I tend to think that Jon was not one of the swapped babies, so that might steer me thoughts away from this potential.
I've generally tried to make Jon part of the swap, but haven't come up with a theory that I like, or even one that is vaguely satisfying. The closest to satisfying includes RLJ. Maybe I should explore more possibilities that don't include Jon in the swap
Anyway, I speculate that Aegon/Samwell was somehow swapped for the boy we now know as Young Griff/Aegon Targaryen.
I really like this. There is an irony in the hidden prince turning out to be craven. There are great Rhaegar parallels. But there is definitely something unique about Gilly's baby; what about baby Samwell?
I think most people expect his hair to be Targaryen blond, but so far the only color we get is dyed blue and no reveal of his true hair shade.
Yes, I have always assumed Targ blond. (Yes, I know . . .) What color are his eyes?
Sam's eye color is a quite vague "pale" with no color mentioned, and his hair color is never revealed in the text.
I have a picture in my head that is definitely dark hair; my picture is vague enough to allow a range of dark, but not blond. I'm really liking this, and having to re-work some things in my head to let it spin a bit
I am not sure that Randyll would have known about the baby swap, although we do hear he was a loyal Targaryen supporter right up until he bent the knee at Storm's End. I have speculated that he didn't know about the swap but always suspected something wasn't right with Sam.
I think either possibility allows for some interesting twists:
If Randall knew, he was raising the prince who would eventually restore the rightful rule. But when the boy prince wasn't interested in warfare, what would he do? Force the issue, of course. And when the prince wants to take a vow to forsake his family, of course Randall would freak out. But when Randall finally realizes that this will never be a warrior, there is no purpose in continuing to raise a boy who is not his own.
If Randall didn't know, he might have suspected that someone had given him horns. The boy didn't look like him, didn't act like him, and was a shame to his family. So he treated him horribly
If he knew, would he have treated the child of Rhaegar horribly, in part it probably depends on who else knew. But in Randyll's eyes, the boy would have been a shame to Rhaegar
Since I don't think Jon was meant for the wall as some sort of predetermined plan (because Cat and Luwin manipulated Ned into this move), I don't think that Randyll was part of any plan to reunite those boys. I guess it's possible that Sam and Jon were the swap, but I don't think they are.
If there was a predetermined plan to send Jon to the Wall, it wasn't at that time. So the manipulation could have accelerated the plan. But if there was a babyswap, I have a hard time seeing a reason to reunite them as NW brothers.
I think in many ways, Jon feels like an outsider, so he would have empathy for other outsiders. And I don't think Jon does like bullies, which is something that might be outlined to us while Jon watches Joffrey's behavior in the practice yard at Winterfell.
Some outsiders feel sympathy for other outsiders, but usually only if there is a significant point of connection. Other outsiders are so absorbed in their own problems that they have little room for sympathy. Jon doesn't seem the sympathetic type to me early in the story. I may be misreading him and I know that Arya and the direwolves may be counter-examples, but his thoughts seem to be thoroughly focused on his own problems
As to the direwolves, it wasn't just Jon who was sympathetic to them. Robb and Bran were as well, and it's hard to say what Eddard was thinking. We know what he says, which is honestly pretty practical, considering direwolves are wild, undomesticated animals.
I've always found it odd that Ned did relent. These aren't just wolves; they are giant wolves. And the training of these direwolves was put wholly in the control of the children, knowing that if any of them failed to properly train and control the wild animal, people could die. That risk causes me to wonder if we are missing something about Ned's thinking here
I think it's implied in the text that the child needed to be protected from Robert, but I am not sure that Robert was the real threat. After all, it wasn't Robert who ordered the killing of Rhaenys and Aegon (he benefited from it, but it was a passive benefit). And Robert could have ordered the death of Dany and Viserys at any time but did not. It was Tywin Lannister that sought the deaths of those children of Rhaegars.
So it seems. But maybe it was Tywin's idea to save the children, or one of them, by presenting bodies that were destroyed and unrecognizable. Not wanting to leave a means of Targ restoration into Tywin's hands, Ned forces them to be sent to Dorne. No, I don't have any workings or machinations in mind and this may be nonsense, but it gets us to choosing between Tywin and a Viper.
So, did our earlier swap involve a similar ice/fire dichotomy but with children born in the south of Westeros?
I'm having difficulty figuring out how to pull in a threat from ice, unless Ned wanted to sacrifice a child (and then we really need to rethink). Or maybe the swap was before Robert's Rebellion and Rickard wanted a sacrifice. This might work with my notions that Lyanna died before RR and that Aerys had a reason for killing Rickard.
I see the Trident as the major north/south divider in the story.
You know nothing, Jon Snow. The Wall is the division between North and South.
Jon is also offering Gilly's baby a chance at a life it could not have without this swap. It could benefit Gilly's child in the long run.
Are you meaning a life as a prince. I'm not sure being the son of Mance really means that much. There is definitely not any hereditary title among the Free Folk. And Mance doesn't mean much below the Wall, although among the Wildlings, maybe
A woman can lactate for up to two years after birth with decent milk supply as long as the stimulation is appropriate, and even longer but the milk supply might be diminished.
Agreed. I was speaking broadly and yes, there would have been a still birth. But a child younger than a year or two seems likely
But Jon doesn't know or think that the Other wanted Gilly's baby. I don't think Sam thinks that either. Only Gilly is certain that the Other is coming for her child, but she also thinks the Other's are all Craster's sons. They might be, but they might not be either. She could be wrong. And the Other might have been after Samwell, as far as we know.
I guess I think Gilly knows what she is talking about. I think the Other was after the baby. But there isn't much to go on to support that, I suppose
Ned does name Wylla as the mother of his bastard when Robert pushes, but this doesn't seem like the first time Ned and Robert have had this converstation. Robert asks almost as if it's a "remind me again..." type of thing.
I take Robert as trying to get the information by implying that he already has it. I don't think Ned has ever told Robert and I don't think Robert has a name. But Ned could be lying, there could be multiple Wyllas, or that may have simply been the first name that came to mind as something to say.
And Edric is also potentially just telling a story that he has been told, which might not be correct
Edric certainly doesn't have any first hand information. And I don't think we should assume he has his facts correct. But it is his admiration that I think is huge
Ned Dayne does seem to have great respect for Eddard Stark. Wants to meet him, almost acts a little like hero worship is in play.
This doesn't make sense to me. I suppose he could assume Ned is an awesome warrior, to have defeated SAD. But there is more to it, it seems.
Ned returned the sword, which would be appreciated. But he killed two of their own, and prominent ones. Even if they were detestable individuals, they seemed respected in the kingdom and I don't think the Daynes would hold any great love for the person responsible for their deaths.
Where they really such spectacular people deserving of this kind of hero worship? Maybe, but I am more inclined to think they were regular people who did some good things and some bad things, just like the rest of our characters.
In much mythology, people who do heroic things often do outsized destructive things. Their greatness can move in either direction. SAD and/or Ashara may have done extraordinary good and evil.