The Direwolves Of Winterfell: Part 1, Lady and Sansa’s Bond
Apr 19, 2020 15:22:18 GMT
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Post by stdaga on Apr 19, 2020 15:22:18 GMT
Certainly we don't have definitive proof. But Gavin Greywolf's mention in three paragraph's earlier. The Blackwood and Warg King mentions are in successive paragraphs. GRRM has the maester writing it cast doubt on the Blackwood family tale, but then in the next paragraph tells the seemingly unrelated story of the warg king, which give a very plausible potential solution to the mystery. I find it highly likely to be the implication of that text, and a very clever bit of writing. I think he's got a habit of doing this exact thing in some of his cryptic non-answers as well, actually (the SSM about Littlefinger potentially influencing Joffrey in hiring the catspaw, for instance).
Both are hinted to around the same time in the World Book, within a few paragraphs. Now, I think it's more subtle to mention it with a little bit of space between the mention of the Warg King and not right on top of it. Also, warg indicates dog or wolf and so far we have no wolf imagery for the Blackwoods (except the claim to have controlled the Wolfswood), but Greywolf as a last name, certainly hints a wolf imagery. And the Starks have a grey wolf on their sigil, which might have been a concession to all the daughters of the Warg King which the Stark's married. It would not be the first time we see sigils change over marriage of two great families. Perhaps before this the Stark's only had an ice white banner with no symbol at all? Or their previous sigil item was replaced by a grey wolf in honor of the Warg Kings' blood. I don't expect to change your mind, but it makes more sense to me than to tie the Blackwoods to wargs and wolves. Agree to disagree!
The text does not explicitly say the king died, nor all his immediate family, just his sons. He could have survived himself, had surviving grandsons, had a pregnant wife, surviving brothers, etc. We know for sure that there is safe harbor at Sea Dragon point from Theon / Asha, so certainly if it were Blackwoods, they may've escaped by ship, which would be the likely way for a hose to move so far across the continent. That is what the Manderly's did in the opposite direction.
If the Starks are taking over lands and daughters does it really makes sense that they left the warg king alive, along with any possible heirs? It doesn't make sense to me. Tywin would be very disappointed in them, and we know those Starks of old were "men hard as the land they ruled". Not pushovers at all.
Well I don't think this particular maester is meaning harm, but Pycelle mentions that this Colman was relatively inexperienced. This is a risk. Speaking of Pycelle, he definitely didn't do his best on Jon Arryn, so your faith in the hypocratic convictions of maester certainly suffers in that story.
You make a good point about Pycelle, and certainly he wasn't doing much to help Jon Arryn heal, but that doesn't mean he was intentionally doing medicine that would harm him either. And I think it could be argued in this case that Pycelle's actions and loyalties are to the Lannisters and have nothing to do with the Citadel. Or breaking skinchanger behavior, which was what our discussion was centered around.
Yeah, I agree that Rickon and Shaggy is different than Bran and Summer. I think the smell of death is the reason Summer shied away. We get the hint about that in Jon's wolf dream with Ghost in ACoK when he smelled death and bared his teeth to the tree that Bran was embodying. Perhaps the dead direwolf that we are talking about wouldn't have any concern about the smell of death.
I see the possibility that there was a third presence in the crypts, or even invading Jon's and Bran's dream that was unwanted or unliked by Ghost or Summer. If there is an entity that is hijacking dreams then I think it's Euron, whom I think is the Three-Eyed Crow. That is not Bloodraven, I would bet money on it.
I agree that it is possible that spirits are held in the tombs by the iron, but I question that because Varamyr's story tells us that the warg's spirit leaves the body immediately upon death. That is a temporal contradiction.
But Varemyr is not a Stark, nor is he close the the crypts, which might in some way reach out and grab at the spirits of the newly dead, much the way the weirnet seems to. Varamyr also seemed to bounce around a time or two or three before he found his place, so even if your spirit immediately leaves your body, it doesn't go directly to the weirnet. Ned died in Kings Landing, yet it seems like his spirit was in the Winterfell crypts for his sons to dream about and to actually seek his ghost. There is something that ties or binds the Stark's to the crypts.
Well, what is she, 10 or 11 now? if she does flower, I'd say Gendry is more likely. At least two morons in this world agree with me.
Sorry, but the age argument doesn't work for me. Jon and Gendry are pretty much the same age, making them the same amount of years older than Arya.
I am talking specifically of her calling Joffrey out for the killing of Lady.
Does she actually do this? I think in some way she might blame Cersei but I still don't think she blames Joffrey.
I think this is no more than foreshadowing of his betrayal. Certainly Arya was right to take the hint and not reveal herself to the man.
I don't know but I think it's more than just foreshadowing betrayal, although it's that as well. There seems to be something quite specific in the numbers. Nine wolves in total, seven adults, two pups, and that he had the hides sewn into a blanket for his bed. Or to wear. He is toying with wearing the skins of wolves, in preparation for Robb's skin, I think. And the way Arya describes there faces, drawn back in dying snarls that also hints at The Skin Trade imagery.
Unless you have some damning evidence, I think we'll have to agree to disagree about the Manderly's. I find the Hornwood thing a power grab, but infinitely more preferable to the once Ramsey made at Hornwood.
Sure, I am not trying to convince anyone of the things that I see in the text, although I do enjoy the discussion's. But for the most part, knights in the north are tied to House Manderly, not all of course (since we have Ser Rodril Cassell and I think that Rickard Stark was probably knighted), but for the most part knighthood, which is tied in most ways to the Faith of the Seven, is tied to House Manderly. And the text plainly states from Theon's POV "Maester Luwin was trying to reach him when a knight on a warhorse planted a spear between his shoulders, then swung back to ride over him". So not only did a knight drive a spear into him, that same knight rode back and rode over Luwin. That is particular behavior, and toward a maester, which is odd. We know that even captured maesters are valuable, not something to be wasted, or determinedly targeted. I also think it's pretty amazing that Luwin survived these actions and was able to drag himself into the castle and into the godswood. Luwin seems difficult to kill and with his grey eyes, it would not surprise me if he had Stark blood, or at least skinchanger blood.
As to what I think was a Bolton and Manderly alliance to take the Stark's down, I think the Bolton's made a deal with the Frey's out of necessity after the initial Bolton/Manderly deal and when Wendel Manderly was killed, this created the schism we now see between Manderly and Bolton, and is the reason for the Manderly's hatred of not only the Frey's, for their actions, but for starting to move against the Bolton's by ruffling the very uneasy hold that the Bolton's have on the north. Ambitions will bit you in the ass eventually. But I understand not many people see this the way I do. Doesn't bother me a bit.
Yes, but she also heard her scream her head off when the scene turned to horror. Arya ought to eventually remember this, too. It will take time, and yes there will almost certainly be tension to begin with, but I do think the surviving pack will all be together at some point and generally on the same page. Certainly contrition from Sansa would be important to enable this, but I am not sure how much of that we'll get.
No, I don't really think Sansa is one for contrition. I do think she is more empathetic to people who are not her family, which is kind of odd, but that seems to be how GRRM has written her. She can be quite kind and sympathetic, but also can be quite selfish, as when she doesn't think of Jeyne Poole being missing for days and days. She does have moments where she worries about Jon or thinks of Arya or Bran. Does she ever think of Rickon? She focuses mostly on Robb but I think that is because she was in Joffrey's clutches and Joff was focused on Robb. I do hope Sansa's role is to take down Littlefinger, and even if she doesn't do anything else, that would be enough for me.
While they are zealots in a death cult, they may also be very practical when it comes to achieving their ends. Adhesion to rules may not be a high priority.
Well, if they prove to be that hypocritical to their own teaching, that might be a reason that Arya tries to break free. Of course, she herself cannot let go of her own grudges. What is interesting to me about her list is that she is not responsible for killing each of them herself, only a few, but they are all slowly getting justice that is not tied to a natural death. Is that the power of Many-Faced God, or is the HoB&W taking a hand in those deaths? I also question the Many-Faced God in Ned's final damning of so many people while he is in the Black Cells. Does he say these prayers out loud? Did Jaquen hear them, just as he heard Arya's prayers?
Which is exactly why I think Ned never saw their faces. If he turned Yoren over the the gaolers, Yoren probably knew them already from prior trips, so I just don't see a reason for Ned being there. Varys himself being a gaoler, I can certainly see being there. This is regardless of the timing of it all. Yoren certainly was in contact with Varys, given that he handed Renly over to him. They probably had been in prior contact, and Varys's word to take them might have been enough for Yoren based upon prior history.
Are those men expected to piss and shit in their cage for months while they travel to the wall. It defies logic.
Not just the crazy plot holes but I have so many unanswered questions in relation to what Yoren was up to in general, let alone taking on those three criminals from the darkest pits of the Red Keep. So many questions.