Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex

This brings me to the other side of the thought; I think that this kingsblood has been spread far and wide over the last 10,000 years since the long night, so we may find in the next 2 books that GRRM plans to show that A LOT of his characters are capable of magic and the supernatural! As magic ramps up, more and more people will begin to exhibit what Varamyr calls "the gift." Early in the story only certain people show it, but that’s mainly because their experiences as elites make it far more likely for them to develop magical power in this world.

If you mean "magic" just as skinchanging, then I think we do see some of that in none elite family lines, such as Hullen and Harwin. Or perhaps even the kennel masters of Westeros, such as Farlen, or the Gregor and Sandor Clegane's father. Interestingly, Hullen is stabbed multiple times and still doesn't die, which has made me speculate that he shares some bastard Stark blood (because Stark's are hard to kill) or that in general, it's hard to kill a skinchanger, because their soul is constantly reaching out to connect to animals, probably in Hullen's case, to horses in a stable. I think that the weaker the genetics, though, the lesser the ability to connect or even control an animal.

One example is that Bran develops telepathy from his coma and his subsequent sensory deprivation in the crypts of Winterfell, trauma in the north, and finally more sensory deprivation in the cave. Masked in this story is the elitism; he is fortunate to have people devoted to him, servants, sworn to protect and defend him. Without that supporting cast, he could not shine so brightly. I'd say that some of his supporting cast may end up being magical too, (even as the others are sacrificed) to underscore their earlier importance to the story;

I would think that trauma, near-death or death and rebirth would enhance these abilities in a person. But telepathy might simply be, at least in part, the process of receiving dreams, whether the dreamer recognizes them as prophetic or not. We know Ned dreams, Arya and Jon dream, Bran certainly dreams. Cersei and Jaime and Tyrion dream, although I question if Jaime has always had such dreams. I think that something changed in him, probably in his hand injury, but also is has been theorized by shymaid in a post here (I will link it if I can find it) that it was the darkness of his time in the Riverrun dungeon that brought on Jaime's ability to dream. Or to at least have what we view as prophetic dreams.

Another example is in AGoT, where the fortunate-up-to-that-time Sansa can watch tourneys and Arya can practice "looking with her eyes" and chasing cats to develop her gifts, while Gendry has to concentrate on his hammer, and hot pie has to concentrate on his pies. They just don’t have the opportunities elites have. Job one for them is simply to survive. While Gendry is implied to have kingsblood, I do wonder if Hot Pie might end up being exceptional before the end. Even if not, we already know that he is an exceptional baker, so that may be enough to prove my point.

Gendry being a bastard actually proves my point in another way. All these bastards feed the genetic pool of common folk to such an extent that it is impossible that theses genes aren't ubiquitous in the story. Sure, the Starks, Daynes, Hightowers, Blackwoods, Lannisters, and Targaryens may have retained this magical blood through careful breeding practices, but at the same time, they shared it far and wide in the blood of their bastards and vassals.

I am not certain that Melisandre even knows what she means when she talks about "kingsblood". My gut is that it comes from Garth Greenhand, who I think was the first High King of the First Men in Westeros. Hence the power is in the descendants of Garth and his children. I suppose that this "kingsblood" power comes from the Great Empire of the Dawn, but I think that might be more connected to the Valyrian's than anyone else. Of Robert's children, it is Edric Storm that is noted for his "kingsblood" time and time again, I don't think this is tied to Gendry, although it is certainly implied.

I still think that if power is dispersed and eventually diluted through generations, it would be weakened, making it less useful, at least less controllable. And if nearly everyone who is alive by the end of the story has some sort of magic, then it's not really special. And perhaps it's not intended to be. I understand your theorize that GRRM is anti-elitism, and in the real world, I suspect that is correct but I am not sure about this world. We also don't yet know that this type of magic is a good thing, so the more of you might carry, the more dangerous you might actually be to the rest of Planetos.

You see the elitism at the wall, with Jon and the recruits and the senior officers. However, as GRRM points out through Jon's lessons from terrific characters like Donal Noye , Maester Aemon, Qhorin Halfhand, Ygritte, and Mance Rayder, wildling, night's watchmen, high-born, low-born, they are all men and women, not so different from any other man or woman. I’d bet the magic is in the blood of the likes of Cotter Pyke, and Harwyn, and Anguy, and Dareon, and Missandei, and Rakharo, and Hot Pie, and Wex, and Big Bucket, and Alyayah, and Yandry, and Pya, and Old Nan, and, yes, Moonboy for all I know!

I can recognize this is some of the people you mention, such as Harwin. But can you describe what it is that makes you see such things in each of these characters. Just cause Hot Pie can bake well, doesn't make him magic as far as I can tell.

And while the wall does show us that there is great knowledge in people who are not highborn, Jon is really no different than Cotter Pyke, a bastard with a bastard name. More important than some people on the wall and less important than others. As an aside, I do think Cotter Pyke could be a Greyjoy bastard. And knowledge is not the same thing as magic, or perhaps we are just looking at the concept of magic in a completely different way.

how the magic is expressed, the possible exception being the heat resistance of Valyrian dragonlords.

Are they heat resistant, though? We know that Targaryen's can ride dragons, and dragons are hot. But we also have stories of Targaryen's taking other people for joy rides on their dragons. Does this mean that no one needs to be heat resistant to ride a dragon or does it mean that everyone person lucky enough to have been picked to joy ride on a dragon must have "magic" in their genes and the people who chose them to ride along must have sensed that magic?

To me magic is magic, whether it is expressed as skinchanging, greendreams/prophetic visions, visual arts / illusion, aural arts / hypnosis, fire magic, ice magic, blood magic, telekinesis, temporal manipulation, etc.

I think all of these things can definitely be seen as magic, but they doesn't mean they all come from the same source. They actually might all come from very different sources.

Looking at it another way, Melisandre seems to have the power of vision/prophecy, glamor, shadow-binding, fire magic, and blood magic. I don't think that she got those powers specifically because her genes say she gets those powers specifically. She got them because she has innate magical ability and was being taught these skills or developed them spontaneously due to need.

Well, we don't really know who or what Melisandre is, so it's hard to know how many genetic lines she might contain inside her. But of all the talents she had demonstrated, and these are based on natural ability or what she has learned or been taught, we don't have any clear thought that she is a skinchanger. Unless one wants to argue that what she does to Ghost when she pets him is her actually skinchanging the direwolf, or at least connecting to his mind in some way. I suppose that is possible!

So, in the case of Bran and other Weirwood users, they use the weirwoods because their personal experiences led them to to the weirwoods. Now, on the difference between having green dreams or being a skinchanger, and having the ability to become a "greenseer," I can only go by the text and assume that the ability to be a full greenseer is genetic:

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

Genetics are a condition of your birth, so it is definitely genetic. To me, the likely extrapolation of the text is that there is a gene for skinchanging (and probably all other magical ability due to my logic above). The following has some basis in Preston Jacob's therories. If you have it on one of your chromosomes, you can be a skinchanger in this case (or the garden variety magical user in the broader sense), and if you have it on 2 chromosomes, you can be a greenseeer in this case (or an the uber talented magic user in the general case).

We are told that the CotF one in one thousand is born a skin changer, and only one in one thousand of those is born a greenseer. Greenseer's among the CotF are marked with green or red eyes. I think red eyes is interesting, because we certainly see that with albino's in this story, and I think that all albino's are special (and I have a working theory that all silver haired purple eyed people are a form of albino). Bloodraven and the Ghost of High Heart are extraordinary beings, I think. As is Ghost!

There was a time, when I was determined to figure this story out based only on the five main novels. I didn't want the influence or confusion of the short stories, or even the World Book, and I didn't want to think about GRRM's other writings not in the same world as ASOIAF. But that has changed over the years, probably based on the wait for Dance, and now this even longer, more painful wait for Winds. And so, several years ago, I dipped into the other writings. And one story that I found quite interesting is "The Skin Trade".

I am going to put my thoughts in a spoiler tag for those who have not read that story, and who don't want to be influenced by my odd idea's about that story. It's been a couple years since I read this story last, so bear with me of some of my details are fuzzy.

ETA: I actually think I may reread The Skin Trade tonight. It's been a while and it was one of the more interesting werewolf stories I have ever come across. GRRM really is a dynamic writer and some of his short stories shine!

SPOILER: Click to show

The Skin Trade is a short story about men and women who can turn into canines. Werewolves, if you will. The gene can exist in many people, but it's much less powerful or pronounced in some rather than others. The protagonist of the story is Willie Flambeaux (love his name, BTW) a pretty unmarkable guy, not super attractive, who has a paunchy belly and asthma. He has a crappy job as a collection agent. He stumbles into a murder investigation about people who are being savaged by some kind of animal, a canine-like animal. Along the way, we learn that Willie is a werewolf, or a lycanthrope, and that he is not alone in this city. There are other's like him, some with greater power and some with less power. He goes on to describe that he has heard of varying degree's of "gene's" that can cause some people to be able to change into wolves of greater size and stamina than others. The Flambeaux's were one of the four strong founding werewolf families in this town, so Willie has good genes, his grandfather was a pureblood Flambeaux, his father a quarterblood. But his mother wasn't a werewolf, so he is not as strong as some of the others, but he is stronger than other lesser-breeds, and much stronger than some mongrels. Interesting tidbit's about these werewolves is that they are quite sensitive to silver but they can change on a whim, are not dependent on such a paltry thing as a full moon, and when they change, these people become strong, fast, healthy. Willie himself doesn't have breathing problems as a wolf, and another werewolf, sadly the first murder victim of the story, who is a paralyzed human, is not affect by this paralysis as a werewolf. But it seems that in this story, someone is hunting these werewolves down and killing them.

Since it's a pretty well kept secret that they even exist, Willie can't figure out how someone would even know what they are, let alone know how to kill them. Unless what is killing them is actually one of them. I don't want to reveal the whole plot, because its worth reading if you have any interest, but Willie does tell us that he himself has a father that was a werewolf but not a mother. He is an average human and a pretty average wolf. But he has heard of some people who turn into a wolf the first time and can't turn back, because their genetic power is weaker than others, and these quickly die, stuck in transition. There is also the idea in this city, that there are elite families of werewolves and they usually only interbreed with each other, in a way to make the strongest, purest werewolves they can. One of the werewolves we met is a very rich and powerful man. He is an incredibly strong werewolf, the head honcho amongst the werewolves in the city. Interestingly, it's implied he is exceptionally well breed, very strong genes from both parents, and when he turns he is fearsome. And is described as a red-eyed white-haired ("pale as snow") dire-wolf. There is one character that is inbred to the point he cannot "work the change" as they call it, making him a human with all the killer instincts of a wolf. So GRRM is playing with wolf genetics in this story, four strong families, breeding to the point of extreme power until you cross a line and then you have bred a monster who happens to be a monster in human skin. There is also an element of power within the skins of these werewolves themselves, in the actual hide. So there are hints of wargs in this story, the Stark's and people like them, and also hints of people who want to skin those wolves for the power in their hides, such as the Bolton's, perhaps, and even teases that if you wear one of those skinned pelts, you might take on the power of the wolf.

I see so many concepts that GRRM is working in ASOIAF that it nearly blew my mind the first time I read the story. In this story he seems to be pushing the point that it's the purest genetics make the strongest wolf (or we can call in magic, for the sake of the discussion we are having) until the breeding goes so far that the only thing created is a fearsome monster. I will say that Willie Flambeaux, who calls himself a mongrel and his less than a quarter-breed, is ultimately the good guy who has just enough wolf/magic in him to save the day. I guess, one could argue both our points from this story, it still all comes down to perspective.

I like the tone of the discussion. You raise interesting questions, and it might be that all magic is the same magic, the only difference is how you use it. In the past, I have argued that every character that has dreams is part of the same dream stream, only some people see more of it than others, some people are sent specific dreams and some people go hunting for dreams. I guess that's not really a much different concept that you are promoting with the idea of magic. Same thing, different expressions, and that might turn out to be correct!

Last Edit: Apr 7, 2020 23:05:58 GMT by stdaga: ETA

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Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex Apr 13, 2020 20:23:20 GMT

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Post by alivealive0 on Apr 13, 2020 20:23:20 GMT

If you mean "magic" just as skinchanging

I don't; I mean all sorts of supernatural abilities. But yes I agree that Harwin obviously shows it with how he caught Arya.

I would think that trauma, near-death or death and rebirth would enhance these abilities in a person. But telepathy might simply be, at least in part, the process of receiving dreams

I would think that Jojen got sick at some point as a child. His weakness certainly follow such an assumption. Let's now consider another sick man, Hoster Tully; it is implied in the text, that Euron overheard his crying out in his sick bed near the end about "crabs" in his belly "pinching". For Jaime it also started after his hand chopping and subsequent fever and near-dying. I think that this is the type of thing that opens the third eye. It seems pretty obvious that George is using it this way repetitively. I do agree as above that the other alternative is close proximity and bonding to animals, as we see in Hullen, Harwin, et al and the Stark children. As to horses, I do wonder if Jaime blocked himself from bonding to horses previously, as referenced in his refusal to name them, perhaps also blocking his own ability from blossoming, yet at this point in the story he has allowed his horse "Honor" a name. I do wonder if he's also bonded to it. Indeed, I doubt he took the other one (Glory) along with him when he went off with Brienne.

To me receiving the dreams / telepathic communication is just the actual use of the power. For example, Eddard has visions in the black cells, and I am convinced that he was sent at least one of them by Littlefinger.

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together …"
I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.
The king heard him. "You stiff-necked fool," he muttered, "too proud to listen. Can you eat pride, Stark? Will honor shield your children?" Cracks ran down his face, fissures opening in the flesh, and he reached up and ripped the mask away. It was not Robert at all; it was Littlefinger, grinning, mocking him. When he opened his mouth to speak, his lies turned to pale grey moths and took wing.

If those are not Little Finger's words (and not Robert's), I'll eat my hat. That said, then does that mean that Littlefinger has it, too (yes), and then how it manifect in him? I'd say it was during this ordeal:

That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. "Yield!" he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr's rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured "Cat" as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that.
That was the last time she had seen his face … until the day she was brought before him in King's Landing.
A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her lord father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed. Lysa helped their maester nurse him; she had been softer and shyer in those days. Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon's squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. As soon as he was strong enough to be moved, Lord Hoster Tully sent Petyr Baelish away in a closed litter, to finish his healing on the Fingers, upon the windswept jut of rock where he'd been born.

So Cat was in the same castle as him during his first 14 days of healing. I'd say it's a pretty good bet he learned to "call out" telepathically during that period. Weirwood users probably noticed him and sent a few visions, I don't doubt.

I am not certain that Melisandre even knows what she means when she talks about "kingsblood".

My definition is that it is magical genes that come from the scions of the great empire of the dawn. I would say that if she was educated in Asshai, she does, given that it was the former capital. Garth would certainly be the main established progenitor of it among the First men.

Of Robert's children, it is Edric Storm that is noted for his "kingsblood"

Yes, certainly there is a suggestion that it comes from Robert's Valyrian genes from Rhaelle, but not also that Duran Durandon's genes through the female line supposedly were also there at the founding of house Baratheon. As to mentions of it from Mel, there's no evidence she knows about Gendry, though she may meet him eventually. Stannis knows about him but will likely die before they meet again.

I still think that if power is dispersed and eventually diluted through generations, it would be weakened, making it less useful, at least less controllable. And if nearly everyone who is alive by the end of the story has some sort of magic, then it's not really special.

If you go by the text it is 1 in a thousand; that is pretty common, but still special. Also, as we discuss above, special conditions seem needed to activate it as well. My point is that it may be activated more broadly in the common folk who have it as we move forward in the story.

If it is on a single gene, then I see no reason that is would be weakened by being genetically dispersed. The only difference in strength would be whether you get 1 or 2 of them (+ Male / Female if an x-chromosome trait; women have it, so it is not on the Y). Sure if it is a collection of genes, then it could be diluted. I just don't think that George, with his politics, would purposefully design it that way. He is not an elitist. He likes stories where normal, common, smart folk, like Haviland Tuf, can shine.

I suspect that is correct but I am not sure about this world

I am much more sure than you seem to be; see my comment above. Also, remember all the exposition he is doing of the death in the Riverlands through Arya and Brienne's POV's. I think he is essentially debunking Plato's "Republic" with this work. He is first showing that these elites have no business ruling because of all the death and destruction they've caused. Then with King Bran, he will show that, yes, an all-knowing benevolent demigod might be able to successfully rule, but in the end, that person doesn't really exist. We may also see that even Bran will fail at rule.

But can you describe what it is that makes you see such things in each of these characters. Just cause Hot Pie can bake well, doesn't make him magic as far as I can tell.

This list was just for example purposes and to include several cultures. The operative phrase in my original statement is "the likes of." I wasn't meaning to say that there is proof that every one of them is definitely magical, although with examples like Harwin, I do think there is textual suggestion of it. You're right that the only evidence we have that hot Pie is special is his baking. With Naathi, in general, there is something supernatural about them and their butterflies, and Missandei's brother certainly was the best example. Summer islanders and their sexual culture remind me of GRRM's A Song for Lya, and the sexual congress between Lya and Rob (and I try to forget the parallel to Meathouse Man). Rakharo just seems a standout Dothraki, and I definitely think some Dothraki have it for a variety of reasons. Pya and Wex, because of their traumas. Yandry and Big Bucket are typical of their culture; no specific reason for them. Dareon because of how Aemon describes his voice. Anguy is an exceptional bowman; I do think that GRRM is sneaking the sci-fi trope of telekinesis in from time to time without telling us. I think he does it with Jon in his fight with Emmett, for instance. Barristan probably too. Old Nan because of her stories; I think some may be sent to her. Pyke...

I do think Cotter Pyke could be a Greyjoy bastard.

Yes, I agree. If not, he would not have risen at the wall, where elitism is evident all over the politics.

And while the wall does show us that there is great knowledge in people who are not highborn, Jon is really no different than Cotter Pyke, a bastard with a bastard name. More important than some people on the wall and less important than others.

As an aside, I do think Cotter Pyke could be a Greyjoy bastard. And knowledge is not the same thing as magic, or perhaps we are just looking at the concept of magic in a completely different way.

This part of my discussion is not about magic at all. They are more likely to have the magic because of their high-born genes, but they are more likely to rise in the ranks because of elitism AND merit. I am not trying to discount the merit, but just because they show merit doesn't mean they have higher potential, just that their earlier life experiences didn't allow them to develop their gifts. Noye illustrated that to Jon perfectly. That lowborn folk don't generally rise is elitist even if there are other societal forces at play to that prevent them from rising up. In illustration of my point, when Jon sees potential in Satin and gives him a position of leadership, the other elitist member of his council prove their elitism in their arguments against the appointment. The sad part of this whole affair is that GRRM doesn't make Jon a slightly better politician. He never addresses his men, men who are victims of this system. If he had, he might not have been victim to the likes of Marsh. Of course, GRRM wanted Jon to die, had been setting it up since the revival of Dondarrion and Stoneheart, so c'et la vie (pun not intended).

Are they heat resistant, though? We know that Targaryen's can ride dragons, and dragons are hot.

Certainly, I see the argument that they are not different and mostly agree with it. The only reason I give this any credence to be a different sort of gene is because of the textual evidence we have in the prequel and world books about Valyrians dabbling in genetic mutation and cross-breeding. It may be that they do get some extra fire resistance from that practice, which is why I am not eliminating the possibility.

It may also be that the dragons themselves protect the rider through their own magic through the bond, and may extend such to a non-bonded 2nd rider by proxy. Consider how Aerea died. She was at death's door when she got off Balerian, but somehow before that she rod all the way to KL. She began to burn up once removed from the dragon's presence. That was when the wyrms inside her seemed to start eating he up again. Similarly, Drogon and her bond to him was already there for both of Dany's true non-burning's.

They actually might all come from very different sources.

I disagree, and Mel is my chief reason for it.

we don't have any clear thought that she is a skinchanger.

Yes, I think we do. She takes over Ghost from Jon, temporarily. I cover it in that essay.

Unless one wants to argue that what she does to Ghost

I just did.

I think red eyes is interesting, because we certainly see that with albino's in this story, and I think that all albino's are special (and I have a working theory that all silver haired purple eyed people are a form of albino). Bloodraven and the Ghost of High Heart are extraordinary beings, I think. As is Ghost!

Yes the Red eye thing is on the nose. Notably though, Eye color in human greenseer's is varied. Real human genetics also make it a much more complicated gene set too. Also, you may not be aware, but albino's have a genetic eye color, be it green, blue, brown, etc like anyone else; it just isn't expressed because they don't produce the associated pigment as albinos.

To me, the human eye color thing, in universe, goes back to the great empire of the dawn. There are God-on-Earth emperors mentioned, each with a different color associated with them. I suspect those colors were their eye colors. I think if the got genes from their lines, you can have "the gift."

And one story that I found quite interesting is "The Skin Trade".

I haven't read it. Thx for not spoiling.

I have argued that every character that has dreams is part of the same dream stream, only some people see more of it than others, some people are sent specific dreams and some people go hunting for dreams.

Yeah. The dreams are so varied. I will admit that aside from the wolf dreams and Dany's dragon dreams form AGoT, I haven't sudied them as deeplu as I'd like to. I am sure you are onto some truth there.

I like the tone of the discussion. You raise interesting questions

Thx.

btw I have a half-response ready on m other PC to your respond on Arya's story, that I may need to finish up and send. thx for your detailed responses (here and there)!

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Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex Apr 15, 2020 20:48:50 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Apr 15, 2020 20:48:50 GMT

I would think that Jojen got sick at some point as a child. His weakness certainly follow such an assumption. Let's now consider another sick man, Hoster Tully; it is implied in the text, that Euron overheard his crying out in his sick bed near the end about "crabs" in his belly "pinching". For Jaime it also started after his hand chopping and subsequent fever and near-dying. I think that this is the type of thing that opens the third eye. It seems pretty obvious that George is using it this way repetitively. I do agree as above that the other alternative is close proximity and bonding to animals, as we see in Hullen, Harwin, et al and the Stark children. As to horses, I do wonder if Jaime blocked himself from bonding to horses previously, as referenced in his refusal to name them, perhaps also blocking his own ability from blossoming, yet at this point in the story he has allowed his horse "Honor" a name. I do wonder if he's also bonded to it. Indeed, I doubt he took the other one (Glory) along with him when he went off with Brienne.

To me receiving the dreams / telepathic communication is just the actual use of the power. For example, Eddard has visions in the black cells, and I am convinced that he was sent at least one of them by Littlefinger.

Having a near death experience, or major injury, could change or enhance something but not everyone who has dreams has had that. Such as Jon. Or Sansa. Who both have dreams that are outside the outline of a wolf dream. Or Ned as far was we know. Jaime and Ned are quite alike in that horse concept. Ned has a favorite horse but we are never given a name for that horse. Jaime doesn't want to name horses and he still doesn't but he lets his squires name a couple of them. But regardless of naming them or not, Jaime is a great jouster and some of that might be because he has already connected in some metaphysical way to the horse that he rides. Is receiving dreams the use of power? It seems to passive to be a "use" to me. It's the person who is sending the dreams that is using the power, and maybe just taking advantage of the weak person. For instance, yes, Jaime does have a major injury before his weirwood stump dream, but we are never told of his dreams, if they exist, between the injury and the weirwood dream. So, perhaps it was the weirwood stump that started his dream connection?

To me receiving the dreams / telepathic communication is just the actual use of the power. For example, Eddard has visions in the black cells, and I am convinced that he was sent at least one of them by Littlefinger.

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together …"
I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.
The king heard him. "You stiff-necked fool," he muttered, "too proud to listen. Can you eat pride, Stark? Will honor shield your children?" Cracks ran down his face, fissures opening in the flesh, and he reached up and ripped the mask away. It was not Robert at all; it was Littlefinger, grinning, mocking him. When he opened his mouth to speak, his lies turned to pale grey moths and took wing.

If those are not Little Finger's words (and not Robert's), I'll eat my hat. That said, then does that mean that Littlefinger has it, too (yes), and then how it manifect in him?

What is the point of Littlefinger sending these dreams to Ned at this point? He's already in the black cells and can affect very little that Littlefinger would want. The words make sense coming from Robert just as it could be seen to make sense coming from Littlefinger. But even more than that, I think it's Eddard preaching to himself. Although I guess Littlefinger could have sent those dreams much earlier and Ned is just rehashing them while in the black cells, but the dreams seem related to that specific time.

My definition is that it is magical genes that come from the scions of the great empire of the dawn. I would say that if she was educated in Asshai, she does, given that it was the former capital. Garth would certainly be the main established progenitor of it among the First men.

I think the capital of the GEotD was Yi-Ti, which is not Asshai, which lies to the east. I think those great empires were perhaps even enemies. Although I do think dragons are associated with Asshai and probably not Yi-Ti and the Great Empire of the Dawn. And if it's unclear to us what "kingsblood" means, then she might not really know either. She is guessing, even if it's an educated guess. But I think her idea's of what "kingsblood" means to Westeros are misinformed and that it's actually something else.

Yes, certainly there is a suggestion that it comes from Robert's Valyrian genes from Rhaelle, but not also that Duran Durandon's genes through the female line supposedly were also there at the founding of house Baratheon. As to mentions of it from Mel, there's no evidence she knows about Gendry, though she may meet him eventually. Stannis knows about him but will likely die before they meet again.

I think Mel wants Edric because she thinks she understands what "kingsblood" is, but something Edric Storm and Alester Florent (whom she does burn and his death apparently gives Stannis' fleet favorable wind) is the blood of the Florent's, tracing back to Garth Greenhand. I think it's not the Targaryen's or their blood at all that is special, but she thinks it is.

If you go by the text it is 1 in a thousand; that is pretty common, but still special. Also, as we discuss above, special conditions seem needed to activate it as well. My point is that it may be activated more broadly in the common folk who have it as we move forward in the story.

If it is on a single gene, then I see no reason that is would be weakened by being genetically dispersed. The only difference in strength would be whether you get 1 or 2 of them (+ Male / Female if an x-chromosome trait; women have it, so it is not on the Y). Sure if it is a collection of genes, then it could be diluted. I just don't think that George, with his politics, would purposefully design it that way. He is not an elitist. He likes stories where normal, common, smart folk, like Haviland Tuf, can shine.

Well, what Bran is told about the Children of the Forest is that 1 in 1000 is a skin changer, and of those, 1 in 1000 is a greenseer, so that is much more rare. We certainly look at the magic/skin changer concept differently, but one of one million (that's a thousand thousand) is rare and that is what links to being a greenseer. If the wolves tells us something about the Stark's, then these odds are quite skewed within the Stark children. Six of six are skinchangers (GRRM has told us so) and 2 of six are linked to greensight, based on the eye color of their wolves, and neither of those is Bran. That is way beyond the normal odds of 1 in 1,000,000 when we have 2 in 6, perhaps 3 of 6. Something special is going on with the Starks and it's not just the magic from the wolves as far as I can see.

If it is on a single gene, then I see no reason that is would be weakened by being genetically dispersed. The only difference in strength would be whether you get 1 or 2 of them (+ Male / Female if an x-chromosome trait; women have it, so it is not on the Y). Sure if it is a collection of genes, then it could be diluted. I just don't think that George, with his politics, would purposefully design it that way. He is not an elitist. He likes stories where normal, common, smart folk, like Haviland Tuf, can shine.

GRRM has written lots of stories with lots of intent, that doesn't mean that they all have the same ideology. That's the fun part of being a writer, being able to explore different things in different stories. I don't see him as an elitist at all, and again, we might find out that ultimately he will tell us that all the magic in these highborn families is everything that is wrong with this world. The Stark's, who are set up to seem special and important, but might be the very thing that is destroying the world they live in.

You use one example of a character from a story, I gave another example from a different story (The Skin Trade), which I seen from skimming ahead that you have not read yet. Again, he has written many diverse tales, with all sorts of different intents. And we have no idea if this story will have even slightly close to a positive ending, so it's hard to speculate on his ultimate intent. I don't think we are getting a classic Hollywood "happy ending"!

I am much more sure than you seem to be; see my comment above. Also, remember all the exposition he is doing of the death in the Riverlands through Arya and Brienne's POV's. I think he is essentially debunking Plato's "Republic" with this work. He is first showing that these elites have no business ruling because of all the death and destruction they've caused. Then with King Bran, he will show that, yes, an all-knowing benevolent demigod might be able to successfully rule, but in the end, that person doesn't really exist. We may also see that even Bran will fail at rule.

Death and destruction are two different things. We are seeing a destruction of the riverlands, but it's not a land that is dying. The world continues on, despite what the people in it do, it just might be a different world than it was before.

This list was just for example purposes and to include several cultures. The operative phrase in my original statement is "the likes of." I wasn't meaning to say that there is proof that every one of them is definitely magical, although with examples like Harwin, I do think there is textual suggestion of it. You're right that the only evidence we have that hot Pie is special is his baking. With Naathi, in general, there is something supernatural about them and their butterflies, and Missandei's brother certainly was the best example. Summer islanders and their sexual culture remind me of GRRM's A Song for Lya, and the sexual congress between Lya and Rob (and I try to forget the parallel to Meathouse Man). Rakharo just seems a standout Dothraki, and I definitely think some Dothraki have it for a variety of reasons. Pya and Wex, because of their traumas. Yandry and Big Bucket are typical of their culture; no specific reason for them. Dareon because of how Aemon describes his voice. Anguy is an exceptional bowman; I do think that GRRM is sneaking the sci-fi trope of telekinesis in from time to time without telling us. I think he does it with Jon in his fight with Emmett, for instance. Barristan probably too. Old Nan because of her stories; I think some may be sent to her. Pyke...

We definitely see magic as a bit different in this story, and just one of those things is that I am looking for displayed magic, while you are looking for potential. Everyone has potential for everything in life, in this story and in real life, but what matters is what actually happens, not just what could happen.

This part of my discussion is not about magic at all. They are more likely to have the magic because of their high-born genes, but they are more likely to rise in the ranks because of elitism AND merit. I am not trying to discount the merit, but just because they show merit doesn't mean they have higher potential, just that their earlier life experiences didn't allow them to develop their gifts. Noye illustrated that to Jon perfectly. That lowborn folk don't generally rise is elitist even if there are other societal forces at play to that prevent them from rising up. In illustration of my point, when Jon sees potential in Satin and gives him a position of leadership, the other elitist member of his council prove their elitism in their arguments against the appointment. The sad part of this whole affair is that GRRM doesn't make Jon a slightly better politician. He never addresses his men, men who are victims of this system. If he had, he might not have been victim to the likes of Marsh. Of course, GRRM wanted Jon to die, had been setting it up since the revival of Dondarrion and Stoneheart, so c'et la vie (pun not intended).

Yet, in all of that, Donal Noye treats Jon differently than the other's, so he almost negates his comments. And Donal Noye, had he been alive after the battle at the wall, might have been a shoe in to be Lord Commander because he had the respect of many on the wall. There is no doubt GRRM wanted Jon to be LC, but in his original outline, that role fell to Benjen. And Jon was never Jeor's errand boy, but Jon Snow became a ranger, not nearly the elevated position that we seen him eventually get. Based on manipulation, although his connection to the Stark's might have helped. Ned isn't much of a politician either, but GRRM needed him to act the way he did, just as much as those actions needed to lead to Ned's death. Some of where GRRM takes his characters is where he wants them to be, even though he doesn't lay out the path that makes the most sense. Jon is very like Ned in multiple ways, and while I do agree that GRRM wanted Ned dead, I don't see this same outcome with Jon. I know many people think that Jon's death and resurrection are so accepted of a theory that they might have already been written (much like RLJ) but I disagree that Jon's stabbing will lead to his death, and I certainly don't see Jon's path in Beric or Stoneheart. Agree to disagree, I guess.

It may also be that the dragons themselves protect the rider through their own magic through the bond, and may extend such to a non-bonded 2nd rider by proxy. Consider how Aerea died. She was at death's door when she got off Balerian, but somehow before that she rod all the way to KL. She began to burn up once removed from the dragon's presence. That was when the wyrms inside her seemed to start eating he up again. Similarly, Drogon and her bond to him was already there for both of Dany's true non-burning's.

But Dany is burned when she rides Drogon. She talks of her hands being burned and the pain and the healing process, and that is after she and Drogon hunt down and kill a horse for dinner she mentions her burned hands again. Now, it can be argued that her burns are from the burning spear that she pulled out of Drogon but she is still sensitive to fire and heat. As to the situation that happened with Aerea, I don't know that we can compare it to anything else, or we even have a true answer for that yet.

Yes, I think we do. She takes over Ghost from Jon, temporarily. I cover it in that essay.

I will get to that essay eventually, but I don't know that you and I will agree on what happened with Ghost and Jon and Mel.

Yes the Red eye thing is on the nose. Notably though, Eye color in human greenseer's is varied. Real human genetics also make it a much more complicated gene set too. Also, you may not be aware, but albino's have a genetic eye color, be it green, blue, brown, etc like anyone else; it just isn't expressed because they don't produce the associated pigment as albinos.

How do we know about eye colors in human greenseer's in the story? How many do we actually know of? I think that Bloodraven is one, and also the Ghost of High Heart. Both with red eyes. We also have hints around Howland or Jojen, both with green eyes, although Jojen denies that he is a greenseer. He does say he has green dreams though, that started after a fever as a child, but he makes a plain distinction between having greendreams and being a greenseer. Bran might be one, and so might Jon, but that is still unclear to me. Also, Rickon has a green eyed wolf...

To me, the human eye color thing, in universe, goes back to the great empire of the dawn. There are God-on-Earth emperors mentioned, each with a different color associated with them. I suspect those colors were their eye colors. I think if the got genes from their lines, you can have "the gift."

What gift exactly? We are told the gift of greensight is associated with and therefore comes from the Children of the Forest, and any blood that might be involved in humans with greensight could be just from having the genes of the Children bred into them. Humans might get this from something else, such as your theory on the descendants of the GEotD, but so far I am not convinced. Now, we all have working theories, and I have plenty that most people wont buy, and you might turn out to be very correct about this. I hope a little time and a few more books clarifies this for us all.

I haven't read it. Thx for not spoiling.

It's a good story. Quite different that most werewolf genre stories with a nice bit of horror thrown in to season it nicely. And it has several elements that play out in ASOIAF and definitely worth the read.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex Apr 19, 2020 1:40:24 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by alivealive0 on Apr 19, 2020 1:40:24 GMT

Having a near death experience, or major injury, could change or enhance something but not everyone who has dreams has had that. Such as Jon. Or Sansa.

I really don't quite understand the point you're making about Sansa or Jon here. Jon has his injury after having a telepathic episode IMO(staring at the candle), but I also said that exposure to a driewolf is another path. He also has his first wolf dream not long after the trauma of having to kill a man, a time when he would have wished to have Ghost, his closest companion, near to him. The idea of him subconsciously calling out for the comfort of Ghost seems very likely to me.

What is the point of Littlefinger sending these dreams to Ned at this point?

That was just after the small council meeting where they agreed that Sansa could not be spared unless Ned confessed. The words "will honor shield your children" are extremely pertinent to this, especially when Varys shows up not to long after the vision to explain that bit of context. Littlefinger's goal was almost certainly to keep Sansa alive and to continue Ned's destruction. The best way to accomplish this is to get Ned to repent the "treason," especially since he was undoubtedly among those who influenced Joffrey to kill Ned in the scene. I'd even dare say that he appeared to Joffrey as Robert from time to time too. It certainly would explain some of Joffrey's actions. It's tinfoil, but this is the ONLY reason I can think that the author would have Robbert's face dissolve into Baelish's.

But even more than that, I think it's Eddard preaching to himself.

That Ned would be prone to agree with the criticism of his character does not make the fact that Baelish appeared in his dream go away. It just means that is it more likely Varys and Littlefinger's acts would be successful, which they were.

I think the capital of the GEotD was Yi-Ti, which is not Asshai, which lies to the east

I think it is presented that way to mislead. While the empire is discussed in TWoIaF under the Yi-Ti chapter, that doesn't mean Yi-Ti was the original capital orthe center of the culture. It may only mean that they are the culture that continued the empire into the present day (keeping the title God-Emporer, for instance), much like the Holy Roman empire lived on for years in Constantinople after it fell in Rome. Another example is that some also think that there was a RL Atlantean empire that lived on in some form or another in Mesopotamia and the Mediterraneon (including Egypt), as well. It could be that The Sumerians were only a surviving remnant of a much more widely spread culture.

The case for Asshai being the capital is in it's vastness. Certainly it might not have been the capital, but I certainly believe it was the center of the culture, not YiTi. There is a lot more evidence, but it takes a lot of listening to Lucifer Means Lightbringer's podcasts, and I am not able to take on such a re-listening endeavor at this moment given my lack of commute. He does have his first of a series of YT vids out on the subject right now though, so I'd point you in that directions.

I think those great empires were perhaps even enemies. Although I do think dragons are associated with Asshai and probably not Yi-Ti and the Great Empire of the Dawn.

The idea of there being a Great Empire of the Dawn, does not suggest to mean that there were 2 ancient advanced civilizations that were enemies. The concept of a Great Empire suggests that is swallowed up it's neighbors. I have no reason to doubt that YiTi and Asshai were both once part of this one and same empire.

Now, It may be that YiTi and Asshai split as part of the turmoil of the conflict between the Amethyst Empress and the Bloodstone Emperor, but not before that.

Further, Dany's progenitors, which were imagined in AGoT and shown in her second to chapter (probably before George ever imagined TGEotD) had features that match some of the emperors from TWoIaF, specifically the Jade Emperor, the Amethyst Empress, the Tourmaline Emperor and the Opal Emperor. I go into this a bit more in my essay on Dany in AGoT, but If I posted it here it was only a link in the Direwolves post. I should start a new thread for that.

Either way, my read of this empire is that it is simply George giving a clarifying backstory to these four people we see in her dream. The line of the Amethyst Empress may have founded Valyria and House Dayne. Either way, that she is shown in Dany's dream and is mentioned as part of TGEotD is enough connection for me. Asshai also being tied to dragons only completes the circle. To me, the destruction of Asshai has to be part of the blood betrayal, the fall of the empire and the coming of the first long night. It all feels linked, and the kingsblood is derived from this line of kings, spread far and wide over those 10,000 years.

I think Mel wants Edric because she thinks she understands what "kingsblood" is, but something Edric Storm and Alester Florent (whom she does burn and his death apparently gives Stannis' fleet favorable wind) is the blood of the Florent's, tracing back to Garth Greenhand. I think it's not the Targaryen's or their blood at all that is special, but she thinks it is.

To me this only means that she knows he has 3 possible paths to getting the blood, Garth, Duran, or Valyria. Conversely, the lack of Florent blood may make Gendry slightly less likely to have it statistically. I am curious why you would think that Targaryens wouldn't be a source of Kingsblood.

Well, what Bran is told about the Children of the Forest is that 1 in 1000 is a skin changer, and of those, 1 in 1000 is a greenseer, so that is much more rare. We certainly look at the magic/skin changer concept differently, but one of one million (that's a thousand thousand) is rare and that is what links to being a greenseer. If the wolves tells us something about the Stark's, then these odds are quite skewed within the Stark children. Six of six are skinchangers (GRRM has told us so) and 2 of six are linked to greensight, based on the eye color of their wolves, and neither of those is Bran. That is way beyond the normal odds of 1 in 1,000,000 when we have 2 in 6, perhaps 3 of 6. Something special is going on with the Starks and it's not just the magic from the wolves as far as I can see.

I think the special thing that is going on is selective breeding. The numbers given by the children are given as vague overall statistics. They say nothing about it being randomly distributed. For common folk it would be relatively randomly distributed, save with bastards who would be more likely to have it. Notice that I don't make the case that a lot of common people have greensight. Under my head-canon, that would be much more likely to show up in houses that breed for the trait. Indeed, the only possible commoner in the list I give of possible greenseers is Melisandre, and she certainly could be a direct descendant of a great house (there are definitely theories to that effect).

I don't think we are getting a classic Hollywood "happy ending"!

We can agree on that. As to the other stuff, the is George's Magnum Opus; his world view should be baked to the core of it. Certainly, I do see it as a commentary against feudalism (a metaphor for elitism in today's world) with lines like this from Jorah:

"The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends," Ser Jorah told her. "It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace." He gave a shrug. "They never are."

I just don't think the ending will be an end to magic as is a trope in a lot of fantasy. It probably will have some pretty strong indictments of the feudal society.

I am looking for displayed magic, while you are looking for potential.

Certainly this essay is future-looking to TWoW, so that would partially explain why I am talking about potential.

Yet, in all of that, Donal Noye treats Jon differently than the other's, so he almost negates his comments

Great point. Wouldn't it be wild if after that scene the story at the wall focused on Halder or Grenn instead! I jest, but that is obviously the reason that the story is centered on Jon, as it is in all his POVs. You truly don't know if Noye gives others special treatment when Jon isn't around. I do agree though, Noye is the product of living in a castle most of his life, the system as it were.

I certainly don't see Jon's path in Beric or Stoneheart. Agree to disagree, I guess.

I don't think we necessarily disagree; perhaps I didn't phrase that very well. What I meant was that he's been quoted as saying that the existence of LSH is part of his story, and to me the most likely reason is as a set up for Jon's story of coming back. I only take that to mean that it is one outcome in a continuum of ways people can be revived after "death." I think Jon is far on the "better" side of that continuum.

Please keep an open mind when you get to my Jon essay. I definitely straddle these concepts. Ghost is huge in Jon's salvation in my opinion. Whether his body has an actual "death" is certainly a question I plan to go into a bit more in future essays or YT vids. Cold preserves, so true death and resurrection might not be what we are dealing with in this instance. I maintain hope that his body will be fully alive, with real flowing blood, when he's thawed, even if I do agree with the consensus that he is inhabiting Ghost at this time.

But Dany is burned when she rides Drogon. She talks of her hands being burned and the pain and the healing process, and that is after she and Drogon hunt down and kill a horse for dinner she mentions her burned hands again. Now, it can be argued that her burns are from the burning spear that she pulled out of Drogon but she is still sensitive to fire and heat.

Yes, her hands are cracked with pus, but how it happened is far from certain. She also says this in that chapter:

Only the birth of her dragons amidst the fire and smoke of Khal Drogo's funeral pyre had spared Dany herself from being dragged back to Vaes Dothrak to live out the remainder of her days amongst the crones of the dosh khaleen.
The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak's Pit. That much she could recall, though much of what followed was a haze.

Certainly, you could be right, or it could be the spear. I'll add one more possibility for her burns and all other general maladies in that final chapter. Drogon was injured prety badly. She may have been a bit cut-off from him (I use him only because I need to use something and she/her might be confused with Dany), while Drogon's magic is focused on healing his own wounds. By the end of the chapter, though, they are definitely reconnected, and she does not seem weak anymore.

I don't know that you and I will agree on what happened with Ghost and Jon and Mel.

I kind of assumed that, given that I was sure you knew of the incident.

Only defense I'll give here is that she seems to genuinely think she can help him develop his ability. If her ability is so different, she wouldn't be much help.

How do we know about eye colors in human greenseer's in the story? How many do we actually know of? I think that Bloodraven is one, and also the Ghost of High Heart. Both with red eyes. We also have hints around Howland or Jojen, both with green eyes, although Jojen denies that he is a greenseer. He does say he has green dreams though, that started after a fever as a child, but he makes a plain distinction between having greendreams and being a greenseer. Bran might be one

Well Bran was certainly the example I was citing. I don't see why we should question this, as the evidence is not only all over the text, it's spoken directly. I don't know why you suggest that the pups' eye color should have a correllation to the Stark's powers, and I'll use Bran as an example of that too. Although I'll leave open the possibility that BR meant for Shaggy to go to Bran. I think the pups' eye colors are possibly a reflection of the pups' abilities though.

What gift exactly? We are told the gift of greensight is associated with and therefore comes from the Children of the Forest, and any blood that might be involved in humans with greensight could be just from having the genes of the Children bred into them.

The gift I meant was the same one that Varamyr calls his ability to skinchange, not necessarily greensight specifically. You make a good point about the possible blood connection to the children of the forest. While I am in now way certain that interbreeding is even possible (definitely we get conflicting evidence on that), I certainly entertain the possibility that it can happen and is a vector for the ability entering human populations. If so, there is just as much a possibility that it happened in Essos and areas in the Jade sea from the creatures of legend there as discussed in TWoIaF, as well. If so, then the genetics stock of the Great Empire of the Dawn may only be one potential source of it in Westeros. There may have been a more northern vector from the warg king story and one in the south associated with Duran Godsgrief or Garth. But there is also more than enough evidence of migration from Essos with the examples of the Daynes and Hightowers and mouch later with the Targaryens. Functionally, it doesn't seem to change much.

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Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex Apr 19, 2020 19:49:20 GMT alivealive0 likes this

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Post by stdaga on Apr 19, 2020 19:49:20 GMT

I really don't quite understand the point you're making about Sansa or Jon here.

I thought you were implying that a near death experience is what opens these people up to their magic, including the wargy wolves of House Stark. So far we know that Jon and Sansa have this and have not had a near death experience. We speculate on Robb and Rickon's warging abilities, but prior to Robb's death-death, we don't have anything near death for him (unless we can establish that Robb's warg connection with Grey Wind started at the Whispering Wood? And Rickon seems to be like a savant at connecting with Shaggy, though I know that fits the realm of speculation, and so far no near death for Rickon.

That was just after the small council meeting where they agreed that Sansa could not be spared unless Ned confessed. The words "will honor shield your children" are extremely pertinent to this, especially when Varys shows up not to long after the vision to explain that bit of context. Littlefinger's goal was almost certainly to keep Sansa alive and to continue Ned's destruction. The best way to accomplish this is to get Ned to repent the "treason," especially since he was undoubtedly among those who influenced Joffrey to kill Ned in the scene. I'd even dare say that he appeared to Joffrey as Robert from time to time too. It certainly would explain some of Joffrey's actions. It's tinfoil, but this is the ONLY reason I can think that the author would have Robbert's face dissolve into Baelish's.

I was thinking of the first break between Ned and Robert, before Ned goes with Littlefinger to the brothel. As to the scene in the Black Cells, Ned has many dreams. Are you presenting the idea that Littlefinger sent them all? I will admit the one with Robert's face breaking into Littlefinger's face is interesting, but I still think that triggers back to when Ned refuses to sanction Robert's assassination of Dany. Also, if Littlefinger is so talented as far as entering dreams, then why does he even allow Robert's image to dissolve into his own? That would be a certain way to make Ned doubt the motive/message of the dream. The last Ned POV we get before this scene is where Littlefinger puts a blade to Ned's throat and declares Ned should not have trusted him. It makes perfect sense that Littlefinger is on Ned's mind in the Black Cells, since Littlefinger's shifty betrayal got Ned locked up and his entire household killed.

I don't dispute that Littlefinger no doubt was hoping to isolate Sansa from the rest of her northern support (or any support, really) because he wants to manipulate her for himself. I am just not sure what the benefit would be for coming into Ned's dreams. Cersei and Joffrey would not kill Sansa, especially if they killed Ned. They needed a Stark hostage, so it was rather dumb of Ned to really think they would harm her at all. As we know, it was incredibly stupid of Joff to kill Ned! Of course, if Lyanna was in a similar situation and Ned knew this, then that might also be weighing on his mind and have had something to do with his decision. We also still have no idea what deal Ned and Varys agreed to, even though there is a huge amount of speculation about it.

I think it is presented that way to mislead. While the empire is discussed in TWoIaF under the Yi-Ti chapter, that doesn't mean Yi-Ti was the original capital orthe center of the culture. It may only mean that they are the culture that continued the empire into the present day (keeping the title God-Emporer, for instance), much like the Holy Roman empire lived on for years in Constantinople after it fell in Rome. Another example is that some also think that there was a RL Atlantean empire that lived on in some form or another in Mesopotamia and the Mediterraneon (including Egypt), as well. It could be that The Sumerians were only a surviving remnant of a much more widely spread culture.

The case for Asshai being the capital is in it's vastness. Certainly it might not have been the capital, but I certainly believe it was the center of the culture, not YiTi. There is a lot more evidence, but it takes a lot of listening to Lucifer Means Lightbringer's podcasts, and I am not able to take on such a re-listening endeavor at this moment given my lack of commute. He does have his first of a series of YT vids out on the subject right now though, so I'd point you in that directions.

Another agree to disagree moment. I will say that there is nothing that links the Great Empire of the Dawn to dragons, while Asshai is clearly linked to dragons. Now, Valyria is also linked to dragons, but perhaps in a different way than Asshai was, and Valyria was a new civilization and might have borrowed from plenty of civilizations that came before. Just because the Great Empire of the Dawn's propaganda indicates that they are the start of the worlds power and civilization, this seems highly unlikely to me. Something always comes before something else no matter how you want to spin it.

Either way, my read of this empire is that it is simply George giving a clarifying backstory to these four people we see in her dream. The line of the Amethyst Empress may have founded Valyria and House Dayne. Either way, that she is shown in Dany's dream and is mentioned as part of TGEotD is enough connection for me. Asshai also being tied to dragons only completes the circle. To me, the destruction of Asshai has to be part of the blood betrayal, the fall of the empire and the coming of the first long night. It all feels linked, and the kingsblood is derived from this line of kings, spread far and wide over those 10,000 years.

You might be correct that the blood betrayal was responsible for the destruction of Asshai, but just because a city is destroyed, that doesn't mean that it's founding civilization hasn't been destroyed for thousands of years. Cities last long after their founders have drifted to dust. Look at Chroyane?

To me this only means that she knows he has 3 possible paths to getting the blood, Garth, Duran, or Valyria. Conversely, the lack of Florent blood may make Gendry slightly less likely to have it statistically. I am curious why you would think that Targaryens wouldn't be a source of Kingsblood.

Mel doesn't even know that Gendry exists as far as we know so to assume she wants him for his "kingsbood" is a guess. That damn show! Of course, Gendry is associated with the blood and seed of King Robert Baratheon, but that doesn't mean that the Baratheon's have the blood she is looking for. I know it can be argued that Mel wanted Stannis for shadow babies and that must come from Stannis Baratheon/Durrandon/Valyrian blood, but if that's so, why does Mel try to make a baby with Robert? He would no doubt be more than willing. There must be something different with Stannis but that also means she sees that in Jon and Davos, whom she also tries to seduce. Also, even if she did know about Gendry and want him, we don't know who his mother is and kingsblood could come from his mother and not his father at all. As to why I don't think the Valyrian's have the "kingsblood" that Mel wants to use is mostly a gut instinct for me, and also because the story implies so heavily that the blood is linked to the Valyrian's makes me doubt it. I think there is a red herring family in the mix of fire and it's either the Daynes or the Valyrian's. My guess is that the Dayne's are more important. But it's a guess and that is all it is.

I think the special thing that is going on is selective breeding. The numbers given by the children are given as vague overall statistics. They say nothing about it being randomly distributed. For common folk it would be relatively randomly distributed, save with bastards who would be more likely to have it. Notice that I don't make the case that a lot of common people have greensight. Under my head-canon, that would be much more likely to show up in houses that breed for the trait. Indeed, the only possible commoner in the list I give of possible greenseers is Melisandre, and she certainly could be a direct descendant of a great house (there are definitely theories to that effect).

You are taking Children of the Forest numbers and putting them to facts about humans. I guess I should ask you if you think that every human in Planetos has the blood of the Children of the Forest? I don't think so, I think that only certain families have that, hence that is why they are different. Bran mistakes Leaf for Arya and that seems quite important. I know we disagree on what GRRM might be intending with perceived favoritism and again I say since we don't know the end, then we can't really know for sure what his intentions are. In the end, he might prove that anyone with this "special" blood is dangerous and needs to be ended, not lauded at all. Perhaps the Children are dangerous and should have been ended long, long ago? If this blood is so prevalent in all of Westeros, why isn't Mel just having sex and making babies with one of every thousand humans? If she can sense this blood and it's so important to what she is trying to do. Granted, I might end up being very wrong about this, and that's totally fine with me. I don't have to be right, but I do like to follow my own path with what I see in the text.

We can agree on that. As to the other stuff, the is George's Magnum Opus; his world view should be baked to the core of it. Certainly, I do see it as a commentary against feudalism (a metaphor for elitism in today's world) with lines like this from Jorah:

"The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends," Ser Jorah told her. "It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace." He gave a shrug. "They never are."

I just don't think the ending will be an end to magic as is a trope in a lot of fantasy. It probably will have some pretty strong indictments of the feudal society.

Common people are not just linked to feudal society. We still have common people and no feudalism. And there were common people long before feudalism existed. Now, GRRM might certainly not support this system of rule, but part of why ASOIAF is set in a feudalistic society, at least in Westeros, not Essos, is because GRRM also wanted to set his world around kings and knights and jousts and maiden's at tourney's. The setting of his world might just be part of the needed back drop. Heck, half of Essos is tied to slavery, another method of rule that I would assume that GRRM does not support.

I don't think we necessarily disagree; perhaps I didn't phrase that very well. What I meant was that he's been quoted as saying that the existence of LSH is part of his story, and to me the most likely reason is as a set up for Jon's story of coming back. I only take that to mean that it is one outcome in a continuum of ways people can be revived after "death." I think Jon is far on the "better" side of that continuum.

See, I took a different path with GRRM's comments on resurrection. Are you talking about the fire wight comments? I think the GRRM was critical that that is the path that the show took for Jon, and then it's compounded with the idea that once they took that path, they then made Jon pretty much the same old person he was before. The show did a shitty job of that, but much of the last 3 seasons (perhaps the last 4 but I don't think S5 is nearly as bad as S6-8) and Jon's character development, much like his post ressurection character development was non-existent. None of the characters really developed the last season in the show, unless you consider Jaime's final sudden and backwards turn.

Please keep an open mind when you get to my Jon essay. I definitely straddle these concepts. Ghost is huge in Jon's salvation in my opinion. Whether his body has an actual "death" is certainly a question I plan to go into a bit more in future essays or YT vids. Cold preserves, so true death and resurrection might not be what we are dealing with in this instance. I maintain hope that his body will be fully alive, with real flowing blood, when he's thawed, even if I do agree with the consensus that he is inhabiting Ghost at this time.

Of course I will keep an open mind. I already quite strongly disagree with RLJ, which is usually tied to almost every theory connected to Jon. Just because I no longer see that as the path that GRRM is telling us about Jon doesn't mean I can't see the benefit in your other ideas. But I am not shy about my opinions, so if I disagree with something, I will no doubt express my thoughts. :cheers

Yes, her hands are cracked with pus, but how it happened is far from certain. She also says this in that chapter:

Only the birth of her dragons amidst the fire and smoke of Khal Drogo's funeral pyre had spared Dany herself from being dragged back to Vaes Dothrak to live out the remainder of her days amongst the crones of the dosh khaleen.
The fire burned away my hair, but elsewise it did not touch me. It had been the same in Daznak's Pit. That much she could recall, though much of what followed was a haze.

Certainly, you could be right, or it could be the spear. I'll add one more possibility for her burns and all other general maladies in that final chapter. Drogon was injured prety badly. She may have been a bit cut-off from him (I use him only because I need to use something and she/her might be confused with Dany), while Drogon's magic is focused on healing his own wounds. By the end of the chapter, though, they are definitely reconnected, and she does not seem weak anymore.

I find that idea that Drogon is a part of healing Dany's injuries to be quite interesting and I have not heard that before, but I am not sure I buy that. After all, he was a completely vulnerable newly hatched dragon chick when Dany emerged from the flames of Drogo's pyre. I don't see how Drogon protected her at that time. As to her injuries, time will tell I guess. We don't really know what is going on with Dany, is she bleeding from her uterus or her rectum? If it's her uterus, is it a menses or a miscarriage. No answers until we get the next book.

I kind of assumed that, given that I was sure you knew of the incident.

Only defense I'll give here is that she seems to genuinely think she can help him develop his ability. If her ability is so different, she wouldn't be much help.

Well she warns him and attempts to manipulate Jon, much as she tries with Davos. I imagine that it's the same ploy she used on Stannis. She also knows that after her manipulation attempt of Davos, he saw through her plot and stuck Edric Storm out of her clutches. She might very well have suspected that Jon would do the same thing, which is probably why she constructed his downfall with the Pink Letter. She might have does this before Jon could betray her plans in the same way Davos did. Mel is smart and she learns, and ultimately all she cares about is what ever goal she thinks she is on Planetos for. That makes her scary and no one is safe from her machinations, I don't think.

Well Bran was certainly the example I was citing. I don't see why we should question this, as the evidence is not only all over the text, it's spoken directly. I don't know why you suggest that the pups' eye color should have a correllation to the Stark's powers, and I'll use Bran as an example of that too. Although I'll leave open the possibility that BR meant for Shaggy to go to Bran. I think the pups' eye colors are possibly a reflection of the pups' abilities though.

I think that the hidden potential of the Stark's is displayed in their direwolves, and since the greenseer's of the CotF are tied to green or red eyes, that is why I think GRRM is setting Ghost and Shaggy aside for some reason. The question is then, why does Bran seem so important, why is he told he is the next greenseer? And yes, it's possible that he got the wrong direwolf after all. Perhaps if he had gotten Shaggy, the black wolf would have been strong enough to keep Bran from climbing that day. No fall for Bran and this is a much different story. No war that eventually devours the continent of Westeros. It's just one thought that I have had about the wolves and their individual Stark child.

The gift I meant was the same one that Varamyr calls his ability to skinchange, not necessarily greensight specifically. You make a good point about the possible blood connection to the children of the forest. While I am in now way certain that interbreeding is even possible (definitely we get conflicting evidence on that), I certainly entertain the possibility that it can happen and is a vector for the ability entering human populations. If so, there is just as much a possibility that it happened in Essos and areas in the Jade sea from the creatures of legend there as discussed in TWoIaF, as well. If so, then the genetics stock of the Great Empire of the Dawn may only be one potential source of it in Westeros. There may have been a more northern vector from the warg king story and one in the south associated with Duran Godsgrief or Garth. But there is also more than enough evidence of migration from Essos with the examples of the Daynes and Hightowers and mouch later with the Targaryens. Functionally, it doesn't seem to change much.

I am pretty convinced that the Children can breed with humans, and did, at least in the past. I do wonder if it's something tied to the genetics of the First Men that makes it possible, and therefore some thing we don't see in the Andal's and Rhoynar. And yes, where ever the First Men came from in Essos probably have this genetic ability to breed with the Essosi version of the CotF.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

alivealive0
Jon Connington

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Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex Apr 20, 2020 6:54:37 GMT stdaga likes this

Quote

Post by alivealive0 on Apr 20, 2020 6:54:37 GMT

I thought you were implying that a near death experience is what opens these people up to their magic, including the wargy wolves of House Stark.

Yes. But I discuss other triggers as well. Closeness with a likely animal, for instance. Theat one applies to all the Stark children and to Varamy, and to stable people in general (Hodor?).

And Rickon seems to be like a savant at connecting with Shaggy

That may have more to do with Shaggy.

Are you presenting the idea that Littlefinger sent them all?

No, just the vision of Robert. Certainly the sensory deprivation and his pain could be contributing to Ned's 3rd Eye opening. As to Joffrey, I think Robert beat the hell out if him for disembowling a cat, so that may have been a triggering event for him.

then why does he even allow Robert's image to dissolve into his own?

I attribute that to Ned. He may be more powerful.

Cracks ran down his face, fissures opening in the flesh, and he reached up and ripped the mask away.

with the pronoun use in the entire paragraph, it is completely unclear as to whose hand reached up and pulled the mask away, but I read it to be Ned. If he is coming into his powers, he may have caused LF's disguise to fail.

Cersei and Joffrey would not kill Sansa, especially if they killed Ned.

I agree, but her safety was the leverage used against Ned. LF, knowing that the betrothal to Sansa would not work, would want to keep it on er for the time being to make sure she wasn't disposed of in another way. We need only to look at how things happened in ACoK/ASoS for proof enough of that. For the short term, keeping her betrothed to Joff was in line with his goals.

We also still have no idea what deal Ned and Varys agreed to, even though there is a huge amount of speculation about it.

I don't see a mystery here. Varys threatened Sansa's life. Ned caved and agreed to repent the "treason" and be sent to the wall in exchange for promises that Sansa would be kept safe as a hostage. Now it's possible that Varys may have tried to pull a fast one and abduct Ned, but I don't see why he'd discuss that with Ned. Also, clearly, Yoren thought he'd be taking Ned along.

Cities last long after their founders have drifted to dust. Look at Chroyane?

To me it's pretty clear that the black stone is why Asshai is not crumbling. That simply does not apply to Chroyane.

it can be argued that Mel wanted Stannis for shadow babies and that must come from Stannis Baratheon/Durrandon/Valyrian blood, but if that's so, why does Mel try to make a baby with Robert? He would no doubt be more than willing. There must be something different with Stannis but that also means she sees that in Jon and Davos, whom she also tries to seduce.

It's definitely in Jon. As to Davos, like I've been saying, he may be the 1 in 1000. We don't know why she approached him. She may just have wanted to cow him with sex and not expect any magical fireworks from it. We simply don't know why she went to Dragonstone, but it may be more about Dragonstone or Celyse than Stannis or Robert. She may have only been enamored with him after Robert's death. We have nothing to go on there.

You are taking Children of the Forest numbers and putting them to facts about humans. I guess I should ask you if you think that every human in Planetos has the blood of the Children of the Forest? I don't think so, I think that only certain families have that, hence that is why they are different.

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," is pretty clearly referring to humans. I take those statistics and say that 1 in a thousand men have this gene. Whether it be from CotF or not is unclear. The whole point of my essay is that those certain families have passed it into the general population over 10,000 years of making bastard babies whose lines ventually pass into that general population.

RLJ, which is usually tied to almost every theory connected to Jon

You know from Our fDany thread that I once was on the B+A=J/R+L=D train, even if I am mostly resigned to RLJ now. Even with other alphabet soup, it's clear to me that Jon is special regardless. None of what I suggest about the magic would make a hill of beans difference to his exact parentage.

he was a completely vulnerable newly hatched dragon chick when Dany emerged from the flames of Drogo's pyre.

I find that idea that Drogon is a part of healing Dany's injuries to be quite interesting and I have not heard that before, but I am not sure I buy that.

I got the idead from her second dragon dream. You say Drogon is helpless, and that may be true physically, but he is already magically connected to her from those first 2 dreams even while still an egg. He is already quite strong in the magic. Besides, she has 3 dragons in that pyre not 1, they could share the load.

Well she warns him and attempts to manipulate Jon, much as she tries with Davos.

That is in Jon's POV. In her POV she talks about how he should embrace his nature as a warg. She doesn't have explicit thoughts in that POV about Davos or Stannis.

which is probably why she constructed his downfall with the Pink Letter

I am with Mance on this one, and the motive is simply to bring Jon and his wildling army to Winterfell that went wildly wrong. I don't see the Mel angle, although I certainly think she would be able to intercept a bird.

I am pretty convinced that the Children can breed with humans, and did, at least in the past. I do wonder if it's something tied to the genetics of the First Men that makes it possible, and therefore some thing we don't see in the Andal's and Rhoynar. And yes, where ever the First Men came from in Essos probably have this genetic ability to breed with the Essosi version of the CotF.

I once thought that interbreeding was impossible, as GRRM is careful to make human genetic stock impossible to interbreed with non-human alien genetic stock in his 1000 worlds. But I find that the text in asoiaf uses the term race a lot and never the term species, so I mostly agree that they can interbreed and that the CotF and similar races are just different evolutionary branches on planetos. Your concept that some can interbreed and others cannot would fit this. :cheers

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stdaga
Vhagar

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Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex Apr 20, 2020 18:23:57 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Apr 20, 2020 18:23:57 GMT

That may have more to do with Shaggy.

Possibly because Rickon is too young to think he needs to block these impulses. I am sure that is the benefit and the danger of having the bond start when a skinchanger is young.

No, just the vision of Robert. Certainly the sensory deprivation and his pain could be contributing to Ned's 3rd Eye opening. As to Joffrey, I think Robert beat the hell out if him for disembowling a cat, so that may have been a triggering event for him.

I think Ned's third eye, if that is what you want to call it, has been open for a long time. He has had dreams for years. In Ned's second POV chapter he is dreaming, and we are informed that his toj dream is not new to him. Now, the darkness and depravation of the Black Cells might enhance something, or an injury, fever or drugs, as we see before the toj dream, but I don't think this is an awakening for Ned Stark and the dream world. If you think dreams are different than a "third eye", can you explain? To me, a third eye almost indicates the dreamer has a greater power, perhaps the power to influence. If so, how does Jon influence in his dreams after Tree Bran seems to open Jon's third eye?

I attribute that to Ned. He may be more powerful.

Cracks ran down his face, fissures opening in the flesh, and he reached up and ripped the mask away.

with the pronoun use in the entire paragraph, it is completely unclear as to whose hand reached up and pulled the mask away, but I read it to be Ned. If he is coming into his powers, he may have caused LF's disguise to fail.

This might be a sign that Ned is trying to get behind some message or the messanger, you might be right, and I have not considered this before. I agree that who is ripping the mask away is vague. And GRRM writes like this a lot, just to add to the puzzle. Or to add to my frustration!

I agree, but her safety was the leverage used against Ned. LF, knowing that the betrothal to Sansa would not work, would want to keep it on er for the time being to make sure she wasn't disposed of in another way. We need only to look at how things happened in ACoK/ASoS for proof enough of that. For the short term, keeping her betrothed to Joff was in line with his goals.

But Ned should know that the Lannister's shouldn't risk Sansa as a hostage. Unless the idea is that women don't serve as good hostages in this world, but we have reference to this, such as Aerea Targaryen, serving both as Maegor's heir and as a hostage against her mother Rhaena's good behavior.

I don't see a mystery here. Varys threatened Sansa's life. Ned caved and agreed to repent the "treason" and be sent to the wall in exchange for promises that Sansa would be kept safe as a hostage. Now it's possible that Varys may have tried to pull a fast one and abduct Ned, but I don't see why he'd discuss that with Ned. Also, clearly, Yoren thought he'd be taking Ned along.

Actually, Varys was a broker to that, but that deal was between Cersei and Ned. That is how Varys opens the proposition to Ned, telling him that Cersei would come offer this and Ned scoffs, then Varys reminds Ned that Sansa is at risk. But Varys didn't save Sansa. I think there is something else between Ned and Varys that we don't know about, and that is interesting, because Ned doesn't trust Varys and there is the oddity of them both drinking the wine dregs together. That is important, and I have heard a theory that the wine dregs are in some way magic, thus causing Ned to dream in a different way, something like Dany in the HotUD.

I know there is thought that part of Ned's agreement with Varys was that Varys got Gendry to Yoren, to help sneak the boy out of the city. What is then interesting is that if Varys did do this, would he be aware at some point that Yoren had Arya? Varys has eyes everywhere. And yes, Yoren did seem to think he was taking Ned Stark north with him, otherwise I don't think he would have waited to leave Kings Landing, but there is something off in that exchange. And honestly, for Yoren to be able to spot Arya in the crowd, even if she was on Baelor's statue and then making a scene by fighting her way through the crowd. She also loses Needle and somehow Yoren knows to find that for her and make sure she has it. All the while I think of all the eyes that Varys has in the city, and I think how could he have not been aware of this, and if he was aware, could he have some how orchestrated it? After all, he hints about Arya to Ned, and that seems important. Although Varys does claim that he has not found Arya, I just don't know if that is believable.

Other people think that Ned and Varys cut some deal about Jon, since Varys does mention Ned's bastard on the wall. I don't know what to think, but I think there was something more that went on with Ned and Varys that we are missing.

To me it's pretty clear that the black stone is why Asshai is not crumbling. That simply does not apply to Chroyane.

Sure the black stone makes it different than what Chroyane was built of, but my point was that we have seen great cities before pretty much abandoned to only a small population. Asshai is one of them, it has a small market population, but it's not abandoned, it's a slightly populated but important market town, and Chroyane has it's grey men, which means people avoid it, but it's hard to say how much they are able to maintain the city before the disease claims them. It's not a clear parallel, I admit.

Although speaking of Asshai, there is a line about the blind white fish that swim in the black Ash River and that only fools and shadowbinders eat these fish. I think there must be some power in the flesh of those fish, but I am not sure how it works. There are blind white fish that swim in the black river in Bloodraven's cave, and interestingly, Meera spears them and it's implied that Bran and Co are eating them. Bran says they taste fine, so he certainly is eating them. In The Sword Sword, Dunk has a close encounter with a slender white fish, and I have read theories that the fish is skinchanged by Bloodraven. It all seems connected.

It's definitely in Jon. As to Davos, like I've been saying, he may be the 1 in 1000. We don't know why she approached him. She may just have wanted to cow him with sex and not expect any magical fireworks from it. We simply don't know why she went to Dragonstone, but it may be more about Dragonstone or Celyse than Stannis or Robert. She may have only been enamored with him after Robert's death. We have nothing to go on there.

She promises to make a shadowbaby if Davos gives her his seed. I think she believes it. Now, why Davos is special is certainly open to debate. He very well could be the bastard of a great house. It would not surprise me a bit. His upbringing is very like Duncan the Tall, and they both manage, through a bit of luck (is there really luck in this world) to achieve great things for themselves, positions that seem unlikely considering their birth. I don't think that is by chance. Of course, it's possible that Mel promises these shadow babies to every man in the world and has the potential to make them with any man in the world. Her womb is what is special, not necessarily the seed.

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," is pretty clearly referring to humans. I take those statistics and say that 1 in a thousand men have this gene. Whether it be from CotF or not is unclear. The whole point of my essay is that those certain families have passed it into the general population over 10,000 years of making bastard babies whose lines ventually pass into that general population.

This is the quote about the numbers of skinchangers in relation to eye color and power:

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers." ADWD-Bran III

This quote is about the Children of the Forest, it doesn't mention men or mankind at all.

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer." ADWD-Bran III

This is from the same chapter but seems to give information in regards to humans, and I agree it doesn't specify to eye color. Which is it? Perhaps they are both correct. I guess that doesn't mean that in humans that red or green eyes hint at a gift, but it certainly does in the Children, and if the numbers are the same for Children with the gift and Mankind with the gift, why would they not have the same tells in eye color? I mean, red eyes and a weak frame seems to fit Bloodraven to a tee. I just think this could be represented in the direwolves. The golden eyes of the other four direwolves also hint at the eyes of the Children.

I do see what you are saying abut the genetics, which is perhaps the whole reason or the First Night was meant to do, to instill this gene into the general population, although we don't yet know why. I still argue that a diluted gene is not as important as a more specially/concentrated bred gene that we see in the great families. But there is no doubt they attempt to spread the genetics around, I just don't think it lies in every human in Planetos, or in Westeros, if we want to just look at that continent.

Even with other alphabet soup, it's clear to me that Jon is special regardless. None of what I suggest about the magic would make a hill of beans difference to his exact parentage.

Yes, regardless of Jon's parentage, perhaps in spite of it, Jon is special in some way. I see the possibility of so many options, but RLJ is lower on the list for me, honestly. Jon just doesn't display many signs of either Rhaegar or Targaryen blood to me. He does have a few dragon hints, such as the Ice Dragon constellation, but Bran has those as well, and he is probably not a Targaryen. Davos speaks of the Ice Dragon, and so does Dunk in The Sworn Sword.

I got the idead from her second dragon dream. You say Drogon is helpless, and that may be true physically, but he is already magically connected to her from those first 2 dreams even while still an egg. He is already quite strong in the magic. Besides, she has 3 dragons in that pyre not 1, they could share the load.

I probably am going to sound completely off my rocker, but I am not sure that is Drogon that Dany is seeing in her dreams. I think it might be another black dragon, perhaps Balerion, but it might also be a sign that hints to her being a Blackfyre.

I would consider Cannibal as well, since he was coal black, but his eyes are like green, which actually hints quite strongly to Shaggydog.

I also wonder about Vhagar, but there is nothing that tells us what color's she displayed. I have a theory about "queen" dragons and how one needs a "queen" to hatch eggs, and I think this applies to Dany, as a queen, as well as either Balerion or Vhagar. One of the three dragons that belonged to Aegon, Visenya or Rhaenys would have been one of these "queen's" and I don't think it was Meraxes, who I think was silver anyway.

Still, I do think you are correct in the fact that Dany does gain strength from those dragon eggs. She was weak and hurting, contemplating suicide, but things changed from her, and certainly increased her ability to adapt and grow strong. How much magic that could have given her, I don't really know. It's certainly a subject worth pursuing. She seems to display heat sensitivity before she contacts the dragon eggs, since we know she liked very hot baths, but I don't know how that might hint at her ability to tolerate or heal from hot substances.

That is in Jon's POV. In her POV she talks about how he should embrace his nature as a warg. She doesn't have explicit thoughts in that POV about Davos or Stannis.

Do you think that Jon and Davos are lying about Melisandre coming onto them? I mean, she had to come on to Stannis, otherwise they never would have ended up sharing a bed. Stannis does not strike me as the forward or seducing type.

I am with Mance on this one, and the motive is simply to bring Jon and his wildling army to Winterfell that went wildly wrong. I don't see the Mel angle, although I certainly think she would be able to intercept a bird.

My thoughts are that she is trying to manipulate something she saw in a dream. We know she did this in regards to Renly's death. She felt that if Renly was dead, then Stannis could not be defeated when trying to take Kings Landing. But the image she seen, of Renly in his green armor happened any way. So, I am not saying that she was trying to do Jon harm, but we know she has seen him surrounded by daggers and people he trusts and has warned him about this. Just like she warned Stannis about Renly leading an army to defeat him. She might have even been trying to save Jon, but it all back fired, just like it did with Renly's armor.

And yes, Mance could certainly have sent the Pink Letter, along with several other people. But I don't think it came from a place that had the Bolton pink wax or seal. I think the Pink Letter originated at the wall and the button of wax was reused from Ramsay's first letter to Jon. The Pink Letter contains no curled up skin, so I am certain it didn't come from Ramsay. Mel has the potential to see anything in her flames, and so some information that it seems she should not know about, such as the Reek stuff, could come from her visions.

I once thought that interbreeding was impossible, as GRRM is careful to make human genetic stock impossible to interbreed with non-human alien genetic stock in his 1000 worlds. But I find that the text in asoiaf uses the term race a lot and never the term species, so I mostly agree that they can interbreed and that the CotF and similar races are just different evolutionary branches on planetos. Your concept that some can interbreed and others cannot would fit this. :cheers

Yes, it's also hinted that the Giant's could breed with humans, although I do question if the Children and the Giants can interbreed. The humans might be a link that connects both of those, when they cannot connect on their own. I also question if the giants we see in our current story are not a true representation of the giants in Westeros ten thousand years ago. Also, if the giants and children can possibly interbreed with humans, should we consider it's possible with the Other's as well? Maybe the Night's Queen really was an Other? Maybe humans are the link that connects all these other groups?

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

alivealive0
Jon Connington

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Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex Apr 22, 2020 4:51:11 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by alivealive0 on Apr 22, 2020 4:51:11 GMT

Now, the darkness and depravation of the Black Cells might enhance something,

Yes, I'd tend to agree that Ned has been telepathically awake for some time (perhaps since an injury (concussion is my guess) at the ToJ, since Lyanna haunts his dreams, but I think that further traumatic experiences will definitely enhance it. IMO we have examples of this with Bran and Arya at least, if not Jon as well.

If you think dreams are different than a "third eye", can you explain?

I really don't; I think it is just another term used for magical awakening.

To me, a third eye almost indicates the dreamer has a greater power, perhaps the power to influence. If so, how does Jon influence in his dreams after Tree Bran seems to open Jon's third eye?

Yes and that line from Bran is why I think that. Bran's experince in ACoK and ASoS tells me that this is a continuous process, I don't think it necessarily has to culminate in being wed to the trees as it does with Bran.

And GRRM writes like this a lot, just to add to the puzzle. Or to add to my frustration!

Yeah, He's a sadist.

But Ned should know that the Lannister's shouldn't risk Sansa as a hostage. Unless the idea is that women don't serve as good hostages in this world

I think women are definitely used as hostages. As to Ned's frame of mind, the Lannisters killed Rhaenys and Aegon, and he's been kept in dark dungeon under horrible conditions, when it there is a lot of in-universe precedent for a high-born prisoner to be kept in a tower cell, and Varys just told him he's a dead man.

I think there is something else between Ned and Varys that we don't know about, and that is interesting

I think that lemongate is related, myself. Ned was very clear what he thought of him at first sight.

ould he be aware at some point that Yoren had Arya? Varys has eyes everywhere. And yes, Yoren did seem to think he was taking Ned Stark north with him

Good point. It may be tempered that he is freaking out at the time because of Joffrey's insane move. That LF convinced Joff to do that without little birds knowing is very intriguing to me.

Although Varys does claim that he has not found Arya, I just don't know if that is believable.

I see what you're getting at. Perhaps Varys was aware of what Yoren did and tacitly approved it to take leverage away from Cersei or at Jaqen's request or something.

Other people think that Ned and Varys cut some deal about Jon, since Varys does mention Ned's bastard on the wall. I don't know what to think, but I think there was something more that went on with Ned and Varys that we are missing.

If anybody at KL knew about Jon and exactly who he is, Varys would be it.

Dunk has a close encounter with a slender white fish, and I have read theories that the fish is skinchanged by Bloodraven. It all seems connected.

Interesting. I had never considered the fish more than background world building.

there is a line about the blind white fish that swim in the black Ash River and that only fools and shadowbinders eat these fish. I think there must be some power in the flesh of those fish, but I am not sure how it works. There are blind white fish that swim in the black river in Bloodraven's cave

Yes, you could definitely be on to something here.

She promises to make a shadowbaby if Davos gives her his seed. I think she believes it. Now, why Davos is special is certainly open to debate. He very well could be the bastard of a great house. It would not surprise me a bit. His upbringing is very like Duncan the Tall

I wouldn't argue with anything you said in that paragraph. Nice point of the parallel between Dunc and Davos.

I just think this could be represented in the direwolves.

I think it definitely is, but I think the direwolves themselves have the magic indicated by their eyes, following the rules of the children, just as red-eyed Drogon is probably more powerful magically. I don't thing that paired Stark's power necessarily is related to the power of the wolf.

Jon just doesn't display many signs of either Rhaegar or Targaryen blood to me. He does have a few dragon hints, such as the Ice Dragon constellation

I can only agree, and add that the sword of the morning constellation is very big in Jon's story too.

Vhagar, but there is nothing that tells us what color's she displayed.

She is described as "hoary" in PTatQ which might indicate that she is white, but might also only indicate her extreme age.

Do you think that Jon and Davos are lying about Melisandre coming onto them? I mean, she had to come on to Stannis, otherwise they never would have ended up sharing a bed. Stannis does not strike me as the forward or seducing type.

Hard to disagree. I don't see why they'd lie about it. A confident woman is very attractive to men, just as I hear that a confident man is attractive to most women. It would be very tough for them to refuse her. It's one reason I think they are special characters.

I think the Pink Letter originated at the wall and the button of wax was reused from Ramsay's first letter to Jon.

I agree that the lack of a seal is a big clue; which is what should drive us to question that Ramsey wrote it. I also had considered this source for the wax, although the pink wax would be available at Winterfell, too, and a white raven might also be available capture and to send a message. Paper, ink, and a quill would be a trick though.

I agree it doesn't specify to eye color. Which is it? Perhaps they are both correct. I guess that doesn't mean that in humans that red or green eyes hint at a gift, but it certainly does in the Children, and if the numbers are the same for Children with the gift and Mankind with the gift, why would they not have the same tells in eye color?

human eye color is much more complicated genetically than a single gene, so GRRM may be influenced by science here, and though the magic may be associated with one of these related genes. As I have said, the various eyes of the god-emporers are all potentially associated with the magic. The amethyst (Targ), Jade(Lannister), Opal (Stark) and Tourmaline(???), from Dany's dream may be too. Anyway, I just think it's more complicated in humans.

Maybe humans are the link that connects all these other groups?

The trunk of the evolutionary tree... perhaps. :cheers

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stdaga
Vhagar

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Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex Apr 22, 2020 15:17:14 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Apr 22, 2020 15:17:14 GMT

Yes and that line from Bran is why I think that. Bran's experince in ACoK and ASoS tells me that this is a continuous process, I don't think it necessarily has to culminate in being wed to the trees as it does with Bran.

But how is Jon different before or after "his third eye" is opened by Bran. He was already having dreams. I think he already had wolf dreams but I know this can be argued against. I think in a dream Ghost woke Jon when the wight attack started at Castle Black, so a wolf dream then perhaps, even if Jon doesn't realize what is happening. Even if this Tree Bran dream was Jon's first wolf dream, he was having that connection to the wolves via Ghost before Tree Bran touched Jon. So, what did Tree Bran really do? Maybe just tie Bran to Jon's dreams? Because if a third eye open means you can influence other's, and Jon is now influencing others through his dreams/third eye, how is this shown to us? Maybe something else tapped into Jon and used Bran to do it?

Yes, I'd tend to agree that Ned has been telepathically awake for some time (perhaps since an injury (concussion is my guess) at the ToJ, since Lyanna haunts his dreams, but I think that further traumatic experiences will definitely enhance it. IMO we have examples of this with Bran and Arya at least, if not Jon as well.

Maybe something at the toj triggered Ned, an injury we have not heard of, but I tend to think that Ned's dreams probably started early. Like Jon's do. Or even Sansa's.

Yeah, He's a sadist.

He really is! >:D

I think women are definitely used as hostages. As to Ned's frame of mind, the Lannisters killed Rhaenys and Aegon, and he's been kept in dark dungeon under horrible conditions, when it there is a lot of in-universe precedent for a high-born prisoner to be kept in a tower cell, and Varys just told him he's a dead man.

It's an odd thing. Varys tells him he's a dead man, yet stands there and claims that Ned will go to the wall (alive) for complying with Cersei's request. Little contradictions everywhere. Ultimately though, Ned didn't care about his own life. The implication was to save Sansa, but in reality, Ned should realize that Sansa is more valuable as a hostage than dead. It's all a bit foggy. I only blame this on his fever and injury for him not realizing this, or he was ultimately playing Varys to get something in the way of a deal for himself (probably to help someone else, though). Probably Ned was just too weak to think logically.

Good point. It may be tempered that he is freaking out at the time because of Joffrey's insane move. That LF convinced Joff to do that without little birds knowing is very intriguing to me.

Perhaps this is why Varys does tell Ned he is a dead man, even while offering him a pardon at the wall. Because Varys, via his spies, already knew what Joffrey would do?

Interesting. I had never considered the fish more than background world building.

Bloodraven is a shadow character in The Sworn Sword. Dunk thinks of him a lot in that story, so it makes sense to me that he is not only part of rumors, but also passively spying on Duck and Egg. How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? A thousand eyes and one! The white fish is a clue to Bloodraven's coloring, but if the fish had red eyes, that would be too obvious. I think. But fish are not generally white, so it stands out to me.

I wouldn't argue with anything you said in that paragraph. Nice point of the parallel between Dunc and Davos.

I am convinced that GRRM is telling us the entire story in parallel's and echoes. Only we get some in the past, some in the present and hints of the future and we are supposed to take all the hints and combine to tell us the story.

I think it definitely is, but I think the direwolves themselves have the magic indicated by their eyes, following the rules of the children, just as red-eyed Drogon is probably more powerful magically. I don't thing that paired Stark's power necessarily is related to the power of the wolf.

I am with you until your last line. How can the power of the wolf (or dragon) not be an influence to increasing the power of their familiar human? That just doesn't make sense to me and we might just have to wait and see how the story plays out to ever confirm or deny this idea.

I can only agree, and add that the sword of the morning constellation is very big in Jon's story too.

Yes it is. The SotM Constellation is only mentioned twice in the text and it's tied to Jon. But almost every other SotM reference is to House Dayne or Arthur, specifically. Honestly, I think Rhaegar is about the least likely person to be Jon's father and I can't understand why people cling to RLJ so loyally?

She is described as "hoary" in PTatQ which might indicate that she is white, but might also only indicate her extreme age.

Looking at "hoary" in the text, we get reference to Maege Mormont, who is grey-haired, Dagmer Cleftjaw who is white haired, compared to snow, and some willow tree's are described as hoary, but I don't know quite how to translate that. Grey, white or just old? As to Dragons, Vermithor is also described as hoary in the World Book, and he was said to be a bronze dragon with tan wings. Vermithor was The Bronze Fury, which is a great damn nickname. In the tPatQ, both Vermithor and Vhagar are described a hoary. We have already discussed what Vermithor's color was, so unless dragons grey or whiten with age, I think this is a nod to attitude or age more than color. Interestingly, Vhager is described as "a hoary old bitch" which does make me think of attitude more than anything. Maege is called hoary and also described by her brother as willful, short-tempered and stubborn. Perhaps this fits all the "hoary" descriptions, well except for the willow trees. I still don't know about that. However, none of that means that Vhagar wasn't white or grey. But Meraxes was silver and it's hard to imagine that GRRM would give those three dragons the same color. He didn't with Dany's and he probably wouldn't with the three from the Conquest. So that sort of argues against my idea of Vhagar being black, too.

And since we are talking about Targaryen dragons, I have always wondered and asked around, why their sigil has a red dragon, not a black one. At the time of the conquest, Balerion was clearly the strongest dragon they had. So why did they chose a red dragon for their sigil? Does it hint back to something in Valyria? I almost can't help myself from digressing... I find the dragons and the wolves quite intriguing.

human eye color is much more complicated genetically than a single gene, so GRRM may be influenced by science here, and though the magic may be associated with one of these related genes. As I have said, the various eyes of the god-emporers are all potentially associated with the magic. The amethyst (Targ), Jade(Lannister), Opal (Stark) and Tourmaline(???), from Dany's dream may be too. Anyway, I just think it's more complicated in humans.

Yes, in real life, eye genetics are quite complicated. But I don't think GRRM is doing that in his story. I think his version of a dna test is linked to a parent and child's hair and eye color. There are other things, like the long face of the Stark's, the Florent ears, the mark on the Borrell's hand, perhaps the great size of most Barathon's or the "tall" that is associated with most Lannister's. But I don't think GRRM is going to combine parents eye color or sift in eye colors from generations back. I think when he does do something like this,it's more direct, such as with with Tyrion's split eye color, or Shiera Seastar's, a hit of an eye color from both sides. What that tells us about Tyrion, I don't know. Who is known to have black eyes? Tyrion also has pale blond and black hair, another oddity of genetics, but I also think GRRM is using that as part of his dna hints. Of course, we have some Targaryen's with a stripe of odd colored hair, and we also see that in Gerold Dayne.

The trunk of the evolutionary tree... perhaps. :cheers

I admit I rather like the possibility.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex Apr 22, 2020 17:49:35 GMT stdaga likes this

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Post by alivealive0 on Apr 22, 2020 17:49:35 GMT

But how is Jon different before or after "his third eye" is opened by Bran.

I don't think he is. Like Bran, he resists his magical awakening. I think that will definitely change when he is revived.

I only blame this on his fever and injury for him not realizing this, or he was ultimately playing Varys to get something in the way of a deal for himself (probably to help someone else, though). Probably Ned was just too weak to think logically.

Or the author did his best with the corner he painted himself into.

I am convinced that GRRM is telling us the entire story in parallel's and echoes. Only we get some in the past, some in the present and hints of the future and we are supposed to take all the hints and combine to tell us the story.

Yes, but like a great poker player, he mixes it up just enough that we aren't quite sure which parallel applies and how much it applies to each scenarion. THat part of it is mastery. He steals from real life history, mythology, other writers and his own work and weaves it together. It's so captivating.

How can the power of the wolf (or dragon) not be an influence to increasing the power of their familiar human? That just doesn't make sense to me and we might just have to wait and see how the story plays out to ever confirm or deny this idea.

Oh it definitely does, but each has their own unique potential, IMO. The power of the bonded pair would certainly be stronger because of the magical contributions of both. For example, if Jon is bonded with Ghost, they may be the strongest pair, but Jon alone, separate from Ghost? I think he may be weaker than Arya and Bran alone and separate from their wolves.

Honestly, I think Rhaegar is about the least likely person to be Jon's father and I can't understand why people cling to RLJ so loyally?

Well, GRRM more or less confirmed that Lyanna is his mother. That's what I think I know.

so unless dragons grey or whiten with age, I think this is a nod to attitude or age more than color. Interestingly, Vhager is described as "a hoary old bitch" which does make me think of attitude more than anything.

Definition 1 is "greyish white." Definition 2 is "Old and trite." Interestingly, they rhyme, which means absolutely nothing except that the Oxford fellows might might very detail-oriented. That said, "hoary old bitch" is a bit redundant if you apply definition 2. OTOH, a gray-white dragon, a silver dragon, and a black dragon is pretty boring. Who knows? I was kind of hoping the ended up with the same coloring as Dany's dragons, but the silver threw that out the window.

Yes, in real life, eye genetics are quite complicated. But I don't think GRRM is doing that in his story. I think his version of a dna test is linked to a parent and child's hair and eye color.

I think he know the basics and tries to use science sometimes, I assume you are familiar with the SSM about dragons not having forepaws because no beast in nature has both forepaws and wings? (insects aside) But them he completely ignores science at other times when he finds it convenient to the plot (like the Baratheon hair thing which drives me batty - Ned proved nothing with his book on hair and bloodlines). All in all, he is so inconsistent, we really can't make any conclusions. I gave you my suspicion, and you have your own, there really isn't much more we can learn unless he gives some more specific information.

The idea that each family retained these traits over 10.000 years is laughable, too. Like I said, he picks and chooses, or just really didn't think it through when he started writing the histories.

Of course, we have some Targaryen's with a stripe of odd colored hair, and we also see that in Gerold Dayne.

Yes, and Littlefinger, notably.

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stdaga
Vhagar

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Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex Apr 23, 2020 13:58:22 GMT

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Post by stdaga on Apr 23, 2020 13:58:22 GMT

I don't think he is. Like Bran, he resists his magical awakening. I think that will definitely change when he is revived.

Then I am a little unsure of why GRRM chose to do this when he did. There is some oddness about the darkness, the hints of death, I can't deny. Now, it's possible that Jon's stabbing was meant to happen earlier in the story and GRRM let it get away from him. Honestly, at the pace he's going, I in no way understand how he thought he could write this series in three books. So, perhaps Jon's "darkness awakening" with Tree-Bran was meant to happen a lot closer to his stabbing. Still, that doesn't mean he needs to die. Bran fell and was injured, was in a dark coma for weeks, and woke up changed. My guess is Jon will be injured, perhaps a head wound to mimic what you think happened to Ned at the toj, which will enhance him. Since Jon's story seems to be a trajectory of Ned's, it is sending me down a little tinfoil path of what might have happened at the toj. :idea

Or the author did his best with the corner he painted himself into.

There is no doubt in my mind that many of the questionable moves in this story, especially some of Ned's poor choices are because GRRM needed him to. They are not really organic to a character. Catelyn is another character like this. She makes such a huge mess of things based on her choices, yet her rational thoughts are in a different vein than her actions end up being.

Yes, but like a great poker player, he mixes it up just enough that we aren't quite sure which parallel applies and how much it applies to each scenarion. THat part of it is mastery. He steals from real life history, mythology, other writers and his own work and weaves it together. It's so captivating.

Agreed, he does seem to do it well, although sometimes I think he is trying to use so many influences that he is lost in a creature of his own making. And if you start having too many homages to other works of fiction, it makes me question his originality just a bit. And I have read multiple of his short stories, so I know he is capable of amazing original concepts.

Well, GRRM more or less confirmed that Lyanna is his mother. That's what I think I know.

Yes, some of his statements do line up with this, but he remained quite vague about Jon's father. Which is rather odd, since the show put an answer out there that much of the fandom believes or at least accepts. So, why be so vague in the face of that? There are many potential fathers that fit Jon's personality and actions far more than Rhaegar, but perhaps GRRM is so lost in a concept, he can't feel out what he has written about these characters. I also caution that the mystery was never about Jon's father, it was about his mother. What people fail to want to accept when they first were given the information with Jon as Ned's bastard with a mystery mother, that once people decided that the mother was Eddards sister, then most people immediately started looking for a new father. I did the same thing year ago. But I am not as shocked by the amount of incest in the story now, and I don't see why GRRM wouldn't throw this concept at the Starks, just like he has the Lannisters. I know I could be wrong about that, but if it does turn out to be Rheagar, then I am really going to have GRRM to write something in conclusion that makes sense for Jon having no Rhaegar attributes in his character, few Targaryen mentions in his story, and a whole lot of winter and wolf and ice in his make up.

Definition 1 is "greyish white." Definition 2 is "Old and trite." Interestingly, they rhyme, which means absolutely nothing except that the Oxford fellows might might very detail-oriented. That said, "hoary old bitch" is a bit redundant if you apply definition 2. OTOH, a gray-white dragon, a silver dragon, and a black dragon is pretty boring. Who knows? I was kind of hoping the ended up with the same coloring as Dany's dragons, but the silver threw that out the window.

I actually wouldn't mind if Vhagar turned out to be red. I already mentioned the red dragon in their sigil, which doesn't really make sense, and then they have at least two interesting red dragons that come in later years, Meleys and Caraxes. Meleys is one of the dragons that contributed to my "queen" theory. The Red Queen, and then later there is Tesserion, the Blue Queen. Why oh why is that part of their nickname? There could be more red dragons and as a matter of fact, I wonder if in genetics of dragons, colors are repeated. So, red for Vhagar would not shock me, yet that dragon really has no nickname to help guide us. GRRM has hide a puzzle piece from us, I think.

And while I am talking about Meleys, who is quite interesting to me because she belonged to Rhaenys, the Queen Who Never Was (but should have been), and the dragon and Rhaenys died together fighting for Rhaenyra's cause (ironically, had Rhaenys been made Queen, the dance never would have happened), but before this the dragon was claimed by Alyssa Targaryen, daughter of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, and wife of Baelon (who also rode Vhagar). While I am thinking about Alyssa, I am reminded that she is a Targaryen with mismatched eyes, one green, one violet, which might be a hint about fidelity.

The multiple riders of several of these dragons are interesting to me. I think there is something repeated in the genetics of the rider that the dragon's recognizes, a genetic code, that makes the bond. I have wrote about it somewhere on this board, but Vhagar stands out to me because I can't see the similarities in her riders. Not in gender, looks or personality. Visenya (and we don't know if she was the dragons first rider or not), then Baelon the Spring Prince, then Laena Velaryon, and then finally Aemond One-Eye. I think if we know more about the colors of these dragons, that might help guide my theory, because I think color genetics of the dragons are important.

Some of them make more sense to me. Dreamfyre, for instance, was ridden by Rhaena, who also should have been queen as Aenys eldest, but she was overlooked first by her brother-husband (not that he was ever king but he was expected to be) and later by her brother Jaehaerys, who flat out usurped her throne. Later Dreamfyre was ridden by Helaena Tagaryen. Rhaena and Helaena both gave birth to twins, something not everyone does genetically. Speaking of Aegon, brother-husband of Rhaena, he rode Quicksilver, who was previously ridden by Aegon's father Aenys. Balerion has a father son riding duo also, Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor, who were said to be very similar in looks, although Maegor was a thicker version of Aegon. I don't have my notes in front of me, and it never fit together perfectly, but I do think there is something that makes it easier for a rider to claim a dragon based on genetic similarities between the riders. The dragons know!

I think he know the basics and tries to use science sometimes, I assume you are familiar with the SSM about dragons not having forepaws because no beast in nature has both forepaws and wings? (insects aside) But them he completely ignores science at other times when he finds it convenient to the plot (like the Baratheon hair thing which drives me batty - Ned proved nothing with his book on hair and bloodlines). All in all, he is so inconsistent, we really can't make any conclusions. I gave you my suspicion, and you have your own, there really isn't much more we can learn unless he gives some more specific information.

What do you mean that Ned proved nothing with his book on hair and bloodlines? It was enough for him to recognize that Cersei's children should be colored like Robert. And that theory was enough for him to confront Cersei and get her to admit that was true. It was also enough to send Jon Arryn and Stannis into researching the genetics of horse and dog breeding. BTW, the majority of theories are rarely proven, no matter how strong you see the evidence. And GRRM can make genetics work however he wants to in this story.

And yes, I have read GRRM's arguments about dragons with four legs versus two legs, based on body structure, weight and ability to fly, but ultimately he ignores concepts of art and myth, and goes with what he wants to, and uses a scientific idea to back him up. But that is his right as the creator of this world. Just like the idea's on genetics. But you are quite right that he does pick and chose, seemingly at will.

The idea that each family retained these traits over 10.000 years is laughable, too. Like I said, he picks and chooses, or just really didn't think it through when he started writing the histories.

You mean like the Valyrian's, specifically the Targaryen's or Velaryon's? Perhaps any family can carry a genetic trait if they breed for it for 10,000 years. Breeding over and over and over with a similar group of people will produces similar people. It's not 100% of course, but people of Scandinavian descent tend to have blue eyes and lighter hair (at least as children) and the Irish tend to have a much higher percentage of green eyes and red hair than many other populations. Those traits have lasted thousands of years. Everything in GRRM's world is a ramped up, more intense or longer version of things we see in actual life.

The Stark family is one place he is toying with, though, but I think that Ned and Cat's children can be explained by one of Ned's parents having reddish/brown hair. My bet is it was Rickard, and he passed that to Benjen. Therefore Ned carries a red gene, and obviously Cat does through the Tully's, so we get a greater number of children picking up this red gene, in 4 of 5 of Ned and Cat's children. Unless we want to argue that not all of these children belong to both of them? And I have certainly explored that.

Another oddity is the Targaryen hair colors. Silver or gold or dark blond or white. There doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason with that, except I think he doesn't want them all to look exactly alike, even though genetically most of them should look like one another. Their eye colors also vary in shades of purple (and even some blue eyes), so he is toying with this in some way. But he can always claim that everything about the Targaryen's is different and the rules don't apply.

Yes, and Littlefinger, notably.

Littlefinger's hair is brown with threads of silver, hints of early greying, more at the temple than anywhere else. The hair color oddities that I am talking about, like Gerold Dayne, or Elaena Targaryen, with her silver with a gold stripe, Valarr, with his brown hair and silver-gold streak, are one base color and a solid portion of hair that is a different color, described as a stripe or streak. I think Littlefinger is not like that. Catelyn makes a point to note that when she see's Littlefinger again that he has a pointed beard and threads of silver in his hair, even though he was only 30, hinting at changes. So, he didn't always have this hair color. It's normal aging, not unlike Ned and the white in his beard.

Last Edit: Apr 23, 2020 14:01:52 GMT by stdaga: mouse malfuntion grrrr!

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

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Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex May 6, 2020 17:01:33 GMT

Quote

Post by alivealive0 on May 6, 2020 17:01:33 GMT

My guess is Jon will be injured, perhaps a head wound to mimic what you think happened to Ned at the toj, which will enhance him. Since Jon's story seems to be a trajectory of Ned's, it is sending me down a little tinfoil path of what might have happened at the toj. :idea

Yes, perhaps, but I think of Jon as more following the Last Hero mold, too. I would not expect him to closely follow Ned's path solely.

And if you start having too many homages to other works of fiction, it makes me question his originality just a bit.

It hasn't bothered me to this point, especially since most of them are homages to relatively obscure stuff.

I am really going to have GRRM to write something in conclusion that makes sense for Jon having no Rhaegar attributes in his character

To me character is more about experiences than the bloodline. That is why I don't see his character traits that match Ned as being much in the way of parentage evidence. Appearance OTOH is definitely genetics, and it's clear that Jon has a lot of north and very little else in that way. Still, that and the fact that incest is a thing is not enough evidence for me to consider Starkcest a reasonable possibility. Devil's advocate, perhaps his black eyes, not a Stark trait, are GRRMs way of combining Stark grey and Targ purple. I don't mind there being no hint in his hair, as that would give the game away (just as I don't use the lack of mention of eye color on Lemore as proof she isn't Ashara).

While I am thinking about Alyssa, I am reminded that she is a Targaryen with mismatched eyes, one green, one violet, which might be a hint about fidelity.

I think it's clear that she is a chimera. There are hints beyond her eye color. I don't have F&B handy, or I would elaborate more.

Not in gender, looks or personality. Visenya (and we don't know if she was the dragons first rider or not), then Baelon the Spring Prince, then Laena Velaryon, and then finally Aemond One-Eye. I think if we know more about the colors of these dragons, that might help guide my theory, because I think color genetics of the dragons are important.

I'd be interested to see where this theory goes. All I really see as a true pattern is that there is something very strong in the will (and probably the magical power) of the black dragon.

Some of them make more sense to me. Dreamfyre, for instance, was ridden by Rhaena, who also should have been queen as Aenys eldest, but she was overlooked first by her brother-husband (not that he was ever king but he was expected to be) and later by her brother Jaehaerys, who flat out usurped her throne. Later Dreamfyre was ridden by Helaena Tagaryen. Rhaena and Helaena both gave birth to twins, something not everyone does genetically.

All this makes me think that Visenya, the eldest as well, did not think of Maegor as being a usurper, so much as the throne being his right as the son of herself.

What do you mean that Ned proved nothing with his book on hair and bloodlines? It was enough for him to recognize that Cersei's children should be colored like Robert. And that theory was enough for him to confront Cersei and get her to admit that was true.

Blond hair is recessive. Robert's hair could be whatever it is just due to his dominant trait being on only one chromosome. He could easily carry the blond trait on his other chromosome. There is nothing inherently weird about a brunette and a blond having 3 blond kids. If he carries the recessive trait it is a 12.5% chance. Ned and JA and Stannis were practicing complete pseudoscience, and GRRM knows that. He expects us to see through it and go along with it anyway. Cersai admitting it to Ned, means his conclusion was right, but she didn't admit it to the realm, and in the end it proved nothing, as Stannis learned with his letters.

I am sure plenty of peasants have seen 2 dark haired people give birth to a blond child (a 25% chance if they have the dominant + recessive trait). Ned proved nothing to them, and the realm at large seems to accept Tommen as a Baratheon. None of them have Ned's book.

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stdaga
Vhagar

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Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex May 7, 2020 16:05:47 GMT

Quote

Post by stdaga on May 7, 2020 16:05:47 GMT

Yes, perhaps, but I think of Jon as more following the Last Hero mold, too. I would not expect him to closely follow Ned's path solely.

Several characters are following a "hero's journey", Bran most of all. As to the Last Hero concept in the books, we really don't know much about that role. We get hints but then Luwin interrupts Old Nan. So far, Jon has not taken off north searching for the CotF with companions, a dog, a horse and a sword. That story might only be a metaphor and we don't know the end yet. I try not to combine the Last Hero with the Azor Ahai story. They might end up being related, but so far we don't know that they are. As a matter of fact, besides Bran, who literally goes north seeking the CotF with friends and a dog, no horse but there is an elk, I wonder about Benjen Stark's missing trajectory in the story. He might fit "the Last Hero" as well.

As to Jon and Ned, their similarities are striking, certainly physically, but also in actions. Certainly, Jon will need to make some different choices than Ned made or the cycle will just continue, and each are different characters with their own stories to tell. I still think Jon's story is a retelling of something that happened in the past, or that enough of his actions are to help us figure out the story of someone in the past. The most likely is Ned Stark. Other's that are possible in some ways are Arthur Dayne or Rhaegar Targaryen. But so, far Arthur's story tying him to a sacred brotherhood and wielding a sword fit Jon more than Rhaeagar's story of marriage and children and being the crown prince.

To me character is more about experiences than the bloodline. That is why I don't see his character traits that match Ned as being much in the way of parentage evidence. Appearance OTOH is definitely genetics, and it's clear that Jon has a lot of north and very little else in that way. Still, that and the fact that incest is a thing is not enough evidence for me to consider Starkcest a reasonable possibility. Devil's advocate, perhaps his black eyes, not a Stark trait, are GRRMs way of combining Stark grey and Targ purple. I don't mind there being no hint in his hair, as that would give the game away (just as I don't use the lack of mention of eye color on Lemore as proof she isn't Ashara).

Granted, one can always argue nature vs nurture when it comes to these character's developments, and Jon has learned a lot by the teaching of Ned Stark. As did Robb. But Samwell learned a lot (of how not to be) at the hands of Randyll Tarly, and so far Sam shows no traits of Randyll's. Of course, Sam was terrified of his father and didn't admire him, where as Jon loved and admired Eddard Stark.

Certainly with looks, Jon looks like a Stark, but not just a Stark, he is compared to Ned multiple times, even in Ned's own thoughts. No one compares Jon to Benjen or even Brandon, though we don't come across many that say they knew him that come into contact with Jon. Even Cat, who knew both brothers, thinks Jon looks like Ned, and never compares the boy to looking like Brandon. No one compares Jon to Rickard either, though some people must have known Rickard Stark. He has only been dead for around 16-17ish years by the start of the story and some of the older lords of the north must have known him, the Flint and Norrey. Now, GRRM might be planting the Jon/Ned looking alike connection to fool us, but I don't think so. Many people dismiss both that Jon looks so much like Ned and acts so much like Ned, but I don't. I just go with what the text tells us.

And it doesn't have to be incest for Jon, to still be Ned's son. Or incest to be Lyanna's son, but what we don't see in Jon is what seems like traits of another family. Now, they might be there to some degree. I have talked about his drinking as a tie to Robert, his swordsmanship as a tie to Arthur, and this might also fit Rhaegar, since Rhaegar decided to be a warrior. But Rhaegar also loved books and music and Jon shows no interest in those things. He turns to books because he has to, but in the beginning, he find very little need for them. Jon even has even little flairs of Mance in him, and I see that as more likely than Rhaegar. And I don't prescribe to the Mance is Rhaegar theories. These options could work if Lyanna is the mother. But if Ned is the father, and Lyanna is not the mother, we don't know much about any other women in Ned's life except for the hints of Ashara and the information on Wylla. The Ashara hints could be there in all the Dawn imagery (as she is a member of the family tied to that sword) as well as the kind eyes hopes for Jon for his mother. We know nothing about Wylla's looks or behaviors, though I think it's a nickname for another character, much like Sansa has her Alayne identity and Arya has her multiple identities.

But incest in the Stark family would fit the idea's we get of shame, sadness and guilt that Ned feels about Jon. It could fit the idea that Jon has "more of the north" in him than his other siblings, although this could work for Mance as well. It could fit the connections in his story that Jon does have to incest, such as his discussion with Ygritte, also his introduction to Craster and his daughter/wives, his connection to Gilly and Monster. Bloodraven lies as a heavy influence on the Stark family, certainly this young generation, and perhaps the generation before, as well, and we have to understand that Bloodraven was of Targaryen blood who had an incestuous relationship with his own sister. Could Bloodraven, through the trees and dreams, be promoting his agenda while trying to help produce a child that has the correct genetics? I know people use this concept to link Rhaegar and Lyanna, but it can also be used to link Ned and Lyanna, Brandon and Lyanna, Rickard and Lyanna, Arthur and Lyanna, etc. That argument could touch on many of our characters, certainly Cersei and Jaime. They had to know their relationship was taboo from the start, but they not only started it, but have continued it for many, many years. I have become so numb to the incest in the story, that it's just like discussing any other option for me, but I know that is not the case with everyone.

By the way, Jon's eyes are not black, they are not once described as black. They are described as a grey so dark they almost appear black, but that's not black, that's dark grey. Who else has dark grey eyes? Ned Stark. Certainly it's hard to ignore that GRRM seems to be making a connection to Jon's eyes and the color of Valyrian steel, but again, Ned has dark grey eyes (and also tied to Valyrian steel). Ned's eyes are sometimes soft as fog or hard as stone, but they are still dark grey. Arya's eyes are also described as both grey and dark, which hints at dark, grey eyes for her as well. Are Jon's eyes darker than Ned or Arya's? Maybe, or maybe not. And some people in the text do have black eyes, such as Alliser Thorne. His black eyes have always stood out to me. Does he appear soulless, with an iris the same color as his pupil? Now, I will agree that GRRM uses the colors to vex us sometimes, such as Young Griff's eyes, which are described as blue but sometimes appear purple and they turn black in the lamplight. But his eyes are not black appearing all of the time. Are we supposed to draw a connection between Jon and Young Griff? Perhaps. But in the end, Jon's eyes are grey and Young Griff's eyes are blue, no matter how they appear. As a matter of fact, Rhaegar's indigo eyes could look, blue, purple or possibly black if the lighting was correct, but that doesn't describe Jon Snow's eyes. And so far, we don't know that Lyanna had grey eyes, or what her hair color is.

I think it's clear that she is a chimera. There are hints beyond her eye color. I don't have F&B handy, or I would elaborate more.

She might be but I don't think it's clear. There is nothing else about her to make us think she has splits in her genetic makeup, where as Tyrion has the odd pale blond and black hair, as well. I certainly think that Tyrion is the most likely candidate for a chimera. But some people have different colored eyes, and they are not chimera's, they are just people with a genetic mutation in one eye or the other.

I'd be interested to see where this theory goes. All I really see as a true pattern is that there is something very strong in the will (and probably the magical power) of the black dragon.

It's mostly developing in my head and a pile of sticky notes. As I said, if we had more information on some of the dragon colors, that would guide me a bit more. It's a work in progress.

All this makes me think that Visenya, the eldest as well, did not think of Maegor as being a usurper, so much as the throne being his right as the son of herself.

I am most certain that Visenya did think that Maegor was the rightful heir to the throne, even if he was younger than Aenys. As a matter of fact, Aegon could have left the kingdom to Visenya when he died, but he like most of the other men in this story, felt like he needed to leave it to his son, and not his wife who is also his sister. A sister who was as much as a conqueror as he ever was! And who is older than him. Of course, the story would not be nearly as interesting if that is what happened, instead we get almost instant turmoil on the death of Aegon I, and that turmoil hung over the entire Targaryen reign. Even if Jaehaerys ruled well and for a long time, he usurped his sister's throne, and his sister had already produced to heirs. But the concept is that women could not rule as well as a man, and that is theme that GRRM has been messing with in the history of this story. And it's not just the Targaryen's, it's most of the people in this world besides those that come from Dorne, which is influenced by the Rhoynar culture.

Blond hair is recessive. Robert's hair could be whatever it is just due to his dominant trait being on only one chromosome. He could easily carry the blond trait on his other chromosome. There is nothing inherently weird about a brunette and a blond having 3 blond kids. If he carries the recessive trait it is a 12.5% chance. Ned and JA and Stannis were practicing complete pseudoscience, and GRRM knows that. He expects us to see through it and go along with it anyway. Cersai admitting it to Ned, means his conclusion was right, but she didn't admit it to the realm, and in the end it proved nothing, as Stannis learned with his letters.

I am sure plenty of peasants have seen 2 dark haired people give birth to a blond child (a 25% chance if they have the dominant + recessive trait). Ned proved nothing to them, and the realm at large seems to accept Tommen as a Baratheon. None of them have Ned's book.

GRRM isn't using real world genetics, although he probably very aware of them, he is using his own genetic's. He seems to be setting up that a child would have the eye color or hair color of one parent or the other, as a trail or sort of DNA test. But to pursue your idea on Robert, where is the hinting that anyone in the Baratheon line will carry one recessive blond hair gene? Even if he did, dark (dominant) should win out over light (recessive) even if Robert did have that genetics. Therefore, Robert's children with Cersei should have had black hair, but none of them do. I would love an good answer, because I think Brienne is a bastard of Robert's, but her blond hair has always thrown me.

As to what Ned proved or not, he only needed to prove it to himself, he never tried to prove it to the realm. That wasn't part of any argument he made to anyone but Cersei, and I am sure he would have used it if he ever told Robert. The realm is accepting of Tommen because the Lannister's hold power, but there are plenty of whispers, which is why when Marg marries Tommen, they have Tommen put a Baratheon cloak on her, not the Lannister cloak that Cersei had Joff use during his marriage ceremony to Marg. And that book never would have been proof, only evidence to make people consider what might be going on. Since there is no dna testing in this world, there can only ever be speculation, not any proof, unless you get a confession, which Ned did get out of Cersei. She just never confessed it to the world. The only reason this wasn't part of her confession during her walk of shame is because no one who promoted that wants the extra turmoil that would include Tommen not being considered king any longer, otherwise that would have come up.

And Stannis's letters do make people talk and speculate and the Lannsiter's do feel the heat of this. Plenty of people call out or accuse Joffrey of being an abomination born of incest. In the streets, this happens. Certainly people think it's got enough truth to shout it out to Joffrey in the throne room. They didn't need the book for that. Stannis didn't need it for proof, Ned didn't need it for proof, but it was evidence and clues that helped lead to a conclusion. What is interesting to me in all of this is Shireen. We don't know her hair or eye color, just that she has Stannis' jaw and her mother's Florent ears. We also don't know what color Selyse's hair is and her eyes are described as a vague "pale". Stannis might not even be able to claim that Shireen has inherited the Baratheon coloring, and that does stand out to me as an odd lack of detail, something that GRRM must be aware of. And perhaps he did this so Cersei could attempt to spew her own story about how Selyse produced Shireen with incest or via Patchface and that Stannis isn't her father at all.

Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.

alivealive0
Jon Connington

Posts: 111

Kingblood, Magic, Elitism, and 10,000 Years of Sex May 9, 2020 19:00:22 GMT

Quote

Post by alivealive0 on May 9, 2020 19:00:22 GMT

Jon has not taken off north searching for the CotF with companions, a dog, a horse and a sword

He went of with Qhorin, searching for the wildlings ... and found them after everyone else dies.

GRRM isn't using real world genetics, although he probably very aware of them, he is using his own genetic's.

To be clear, we don't know what of each he is using. I see no evidence to say he wouldn't default to RL genetics when not absolutely necessary for the magical blood lines.

But to pursue your idea on Robert, where is the hinting that anyone in the Baratheon line will carry one recessive blond hair gene?

Well I mean there is every piece of evidence of lannistar and Baratheon interbreeding that Ned used in that example. Then there is Rhaelle.