Post by ryanbarnes13 on Sept 20, 2020 22:53:56 GMT
Jon’s Looks Part 2
In part two the main focus will be on the other misunderstood parts of Jon’s looks.
1. Jon’s skin tone
2. Jon’s Long Face And how it is actually a feature for both Jon and the Starks AND Targaryens. Amongst others.
3. The resemblance to Ned is actually in their FACIAL EXPRESSIONS, basically sad, solemn.... Jon looks more like Eddard than his brothers...
4. The actual true irony of Jon being almost a perfect copy of his mother’s family Unlike what Tyrion thinks.
Jon’s looks has always been his protection, but not in the way we assume. The majority opinion is Rhaegar and Lyanna, with Jon luckily enough looking like Eddard to hide as his son.
This is actually not correct. His cover has been his Targaryen/Martell features being mistaken for Stark features. People, for the most part only think of Targaryens as those that look like Rhaegar, Dany, Rhaella... The characters alive only remember the silver haired versions as that has been the last 3 generations of Targaryens.Jaehaerys 2- Aerys 2- Rhaegar
Only those about as old as Barristan would remember the last dark haired Targaryen. Prince. The Prince of Dragonflies.
Yet it leaves a huge question, if Jon is Stark looking with none of his mother in him, why is Ned hiding him?
Think about this statement from Cercei, I glimpsed him once at Winterfell," the queen said, "though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father."
Cercei flat out says the Starks were trying to hide Jon from the Royal Party. Why? He looks like his father right? Cercei thinks so in her one glimpse of him. Ned fully claims him as his bastard son for all the North to see. Why hide him? That just brings more suspicion down on them.
If he’s grey eyed truly. Truly looks like a Stark. If he looks like Ned, there is no danger, no need to hide. It actually raises questions. It’s because he doesn’t look like a Stark in key ways. The eyes, the skin, and in his hair. It’s close enough to blend in to a degree. Say at night, by firelight. And it’s why Jon has to be kept away, or hidden, during the DAY when it’s much more noticeable.
But there is one feature that is noticeable, and is noticed. That makes Cercei believe Jon’s mother is Dornish. Ashara’s child that Ned stole, a Dornish peasants child, or a whore after just one glimpse of Jon.
Jon’s Skin Tone
Jon being any sort of Stark is a lie and it starts in Bran 1. So let’s see who Jon actually was born from.
What is Jon’s skin tone? Realistically he should be pale skinned, as he is supposed to be either Targaryen/First Men descended, R+L.
Or First Men/First Men descended, N+A, B+A.
Every one of those parental combos have one thing in common that shows us they are wrong, ALL are fair skinned and cannot give us a child dark where he should be fair.
The answer is given to us all the way back in Bran 1 AGOT. The very first true chapter, in our very first description of the characters.
It MUST BE READ with the preceding paragraph describing Robb. One of the biggest clues is given to us right off the bat, but cannot be truly figured out till later. And it is one of the most overlooked because we only read Robb’s section or Jon’s section instead of comparing them together as Martin intended.
“The deserter died bravely,” Robb said. He was BIG and BROAD and growing every day, with his MOTHER’S COLORING the FAIR SKIN, RED-BROWN HAIR, and BLUE EYES of the Tullys of Riverrun. “He had courage, at the least.”
“No,” Jon Snow said quietly. “It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark.” Jon’s eyes were a GREY SO DARK THEY SEEMED ALMOST BLACK, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was SLENDER where Robb was muscular, DARK WHERE ROBB WAS FAIR, GRACEFULL and QUICK where his half brother was strong and fast.”
Bran 1, AGOT
These two paragraphs at the very beginning of the books show us EXACTLY who Jon comes from, we just forget the details by the time we are introduced to Jon’s kin. but take a real slow careful read.
Dark where Robb was fair. This is a HUGE point. First men are fair skinned. In the North, AND in Dorne. In Dorne even those of mixed First Men/Andal descent are fair skinned. The Targaryens are fair skinned also. So think about it for a second. no matter what parentage you believe in, how do you get a fair skinned mother, Ashara, Lyanna, Wylla, whoever.
Add in a fair skinned father: Rhaegar, Eddard, Brandon, Arthur.... and churn out a child that is noticeably darker than he should be by a 7 year old?
Umm no..
Fair skin Mother+ fair skin father does not equal a child that is DARK WHERE ROBB IS FAIR. Only one population in all of Westeros is darker skinned than the pale skinned first men, and the pale skinned Andals, and that’s the Dornish. Specifically the Rhoynar people. Let’s look at the different Dornish population groups from the WIKI:
In Dorne, the descent from the Rhoynar is strongest. The Rhoynar were a slender people with smooth olive skin, black hair and dark eyes. Their impact on the Dornish gene pool is strongest along the coast, and grows faint farther inland. Dornishmen with more Andal and First Men blood are larger and fairer than those with more Rhoynish blood.[4]
According to King Daeron I Targaryen's observations during his wars in Dorne, there are three groups of Dornishmen:
Salty Dornishmen live along the coasts, mainly along the Broken Arm region, where the Red Mountains stretch out into the Sea of Dorne. These Dornishmen are lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair, having been most strongly influenced by the Rhoynar.[4][5] The Martells of Sunspear would be considered salty Dornishmen.[4]
Sandy Dornishmen live in the deserts and the long river valleys. With faces burned brown by the hot Dornish sun, they are even darker than the salty Dornishmen.[4][5] These may include the Ullers and Qorgyles, Houses which were founded by adventurers who braved the deserts.[6]
Stony Dornishmen live in the passes and heights of the Red Mountains. They have the most Andal and First Men blood.[4][5] Some stony Dornishmen might follow Andal rather than Rhoynar laws of inheritance.[7] They are FAIR OF SKIN, freckle or burn in the sun, and have brown or blond hair.[4][5] These include the Yronwoods with their blond hair and blue eyes,[8] the yellow-haired Fowlers,[9] and the pale blond or dark-haired Daynes.[10][11][12]
Once again, The Rhoynar were a slender people with smooth olive skin, black hair and dark eyes. And they turned into the salty Dornish basically.
Just like with Jon in Bran 1 our first introduction to the Dornish peoples consists of telling us their skins do not match. The first view of Oberyn to King’s Landing blatantly screams at us to remember Bran 1 and the parentage theories and say, wait, why does Jon only match the Martells? The Salty Dornish. Not the First Men descended Stony Dornish. (Lyanna and Ashara)
“There were three sorts of Dornishmen, the first King Daeron had observed. There were the salty Dornishmen who lived along the coasts, the sandy Dornishmen of the deserts and long river valleys, and the stony Dornishmen who made their fastnesses in the passes and heights of the Red Mountains. The salty Dornishmen had the most Rhoynish blood, the stony Dornishmen the least.
All three sorts seemed well represented in Doran’s retinue. The salty Dornishmen were lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair streaming in the wind. The sandy Dornishmen were even darker, their faces burned brown by the hot Dornish sun. They wound long bright scarfs around their helms to ward off sunstroke. The stony Dornishmen were biggest and fairest, sons of the Andals and the First Men, brown-haired or blond, with faces that freckled or burned in the sun instead of browning.”
ASOS Tyrion 5
Look at this straight from Tyrion.
Stony Dornish aka Ashara Dayne, and as a fellow First Man descent, Lyanna Stark
1. Biggest and Fairest
2. Brown haired or Blonde
3. Faces that Freckled or Burned instead of Browning (Tanning)
This is not describing Jon at all. The only feature that comes close at all is Jon’s DARK BROWN HAIR. But even that is too DARK.
Historically Targaryen/Dayne produced Sandy Brown Haired/ Golden Beard, and Sallow skinned Prince Daeron Targaryen.
Daeron the Drunken- Daeron had sallow skin, sandy brown hair and a blonde beard.[4] He was not much of a knight, disliking horses and swords.[4]
So look at the Salty Dornish
1. Lithe and Dark
2. Olive skinned
3. Black Haired
Do we have a Targaryen/Martell child historically? Yes. Prince Baelor Breakspear.
Prince Baelor had the dark hair of his mother, Myriah Martell, a Dornish princess. He kept it cut short and kept his jaw clean-shaven.[1] His nose had been broken twice.[1]
And this- However, many men looked upon Baelor's dark hair and eyes and muttered that he was more Martell than Targaryen.[5]
Isn’t he a closer match with Jon than the Dayne match? Than a First Man mother?
What is Jon? Slender, dark when he should be fair skinned, Dark brown hair, and with eyes so dark they look black.... almost sounds Rhoynar or say Martell already...
So why is this important? Jon is dark where Robb is fair. Robb is fair skinned. Jon is dark where Robb is fair. The irony of it is that Jon did indeed have much of his mother in him unlike what Tyrion and Catelyn thinks...
But out of every aspect of Jon’s looks that could be possible explained as Stark or be similar enough to hide Jon’s parentage, the dark skinned where Robb was fair skinned is the one aspect that can’t be played off or be similar enough to hide. Especially if Jon goes south. We forget even in our world the further towards the equator you are, the brighter the sun. The more people darken in the sun. The further north the less powerful is the word I guess the sun is.
The same rules apply here. Jon is hidden in the North, far from Dorne, King’s Landing, and the sun that would truly bring out his darker skin tone. Which is one of the main reasons he cannot go south....
We are not given the difference in the sun till AFFC. Where Martin explicitly tells us it’s a hell of a difference....
And the Dornish sun was hotter than the pale, wan sun of Norvos, glaring down from a blue sky day after day.”
AFFC Ch 2 The Captain of Guards
The pale, wan sun of Norvos, so hugely different from the climate of the South. Even the climate of Essos, look at Dany and Aryas stories. Bravos is getting ice, Mereen is still hot as hell. Think about Jon’s story. What is the one thing that happens all through Jon’s story? Snow. Being bundled up in massive amounts of furs, gloves, beards....
What does this do? Further hides Jon’s skin. His DARKER SKIN TONE than he should have.
Now remember Robert talking to Ned? About Summer snows???? There is no true honest to goodness summer in the North. They basically live under the pale, wan sun also.
“Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!” The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended. “Late summer snows are common enough,” Ned said. “I hope they did not trouble you. They are usually mild.” “The Others take your mild snows,” Robert swore. “What will this place be like in winter? I shudder to think.” “The winters are hard,” Ned admitted. “But the Starks will endure. We always have.” “You need to come south,” Robert told him. “You need a taste of summer before it flees.”
AGOT Eddard 1
Now remember, Jon is already darker than Robb. A 7 year old Bran noticed in the first chapter. The first time we are introduced to these characters. There is one thing else Bran at 7 notices in the same chapter. Ghost eyes being the only one of the wolf pups eyes being open.
It shows Bran is observant, he never held some of the pups at this point. But he noticed.
People already think Jon has Dornish in him. Catelyn, Cercei, Ned’s soldiers. Now imagine how obvious it would be if he goes south. It would be highly obvious if Jon darkened in the sun even more. Prime Example: Nymeria Sand
But let’s look at what each thinks. Catelyn heard the rumors of Ashara. So far we never know if they ever saw each other. But Ned’s story is a whore on campaign. Wylla to the King. But Catelyn still believes it’s Ashara or she has no clue. She never heard the Wylla story.
Arya, Sansa never hear the Wylla story. Arya heard it from Ned Dayne who asked for Jon Snow by name. And Sansa hears rumors Jon’s mother is common. From the king and Queen as they are the only ones who think common whores.
Ned’s soldiers would have the best knowledge Ned did not bang whores as they guarded his tents. And know Ned had no kid until he went to Dorne. But they were not there supposedly, only Ned and his 6 companions. Which means they think it happened at Harrenhall. As the Stable masters son explains to Arya. Putting Jon at least well over a year older than Ned claims.
And Cercei, who admits she saw Jon once, at a glance.
Snow, the boy is called,” Pycelle said unhelpfully. “I glimpsed him once at Winterfell,” the queen said, “though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father.””
AFFC Cercei 4
But from that one glimpse what does she see? Enough to think Stark yes, but something else. Dornish. Once again she admits she has seen Jon, and yet even though she accept Ned as the father, she thinks the Lady Ashara, who Cercei would have seen. But what is the other options? A Dornish peasant, even though they never fought in Dorne, or burned any castles in DORNE. A whore? If she thinks that why is she harping on Dornish peasants or Ashara? And once again we have evidence that Ashara has a child. But unlike with Barristan thinking it was a stillborn daughter, she implies it lived and was Jon. Which still implies Jon is well over a year older than Ned claims. See a pattern yet?
““Honor,” she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?” “For a start,” said Ned, “I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow.” “Exile,” she said. “A bitter cup to drink from.””
AGOT Eddard 12
Now we all know the rough timeline, once again Ned didn’t stay in Dorne for 9 months after the TOJ, Starfall. He didn’t burn Dornish castles, rape peasants, or get Ashara pregnant at the end of the rebellion. The child was already born. So once again your left with Harrenhall as the accepted conception place for Jon in the characters minds. Putting him well over a year older than Robb at least.
The whore is self explanatory. Jon your mom was a whore. Name was Wylla, I was drunk. So don’t ask. End of mystery.
But the Dornish peasant is the interesting one. Cercei has zero reason to even think this as Ned never fought in Dorne during the war, never even got south of the Riverlands. Until after Kings Landing and the Reach surrendered. Yet Ned wasn’t in Dorne long enough to have a kid anyways. The only reason you mention a Dornish peasant is if you see Dornish features.
And what feature? Jon’s skin color. Dark where Robb was fair. Noticeable so.
And this links to one other person. Sansa, who hears whispers Jon’s mother was common. She can only hear this one place. Not in Winterfell as they think it was Ashara, and whispered Ashara until Ned shut it down. Catelyn thinks Ashara till she dies.
The only two who think peasants are Robert due to Ned claiming Jon is Wyllas, and Cercei who thinks a Dornish peasant.
Why couldn't Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Myrcella? She would have liked a sister like that.
Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.
AGOT Sansa 1
Jon does not have hair like Aryas. Jon- dark brown hair. Arya- mousy brown hair of the Starks. Eddard, Lyanna. Long face is featured in numerous houses.
But notice the rest, Jon and Arya look alike because Sansa is comparing them to the Tully looks of Catelyn. Not comparing Jon and Arya to each other by Stark actual looks. Word trickery. Just both don’t look like Catelyn.
And likely the common mother rumors came from the entourage that Sansa is hearing.
But first look at the peoples of Westeros before we go further.
First men/Andal people are FAIR SKINNED. TARGARYENS are FAIR SKINNED.
Rhoynar are NOT FAIR SKINNED.
So how do you take a fair skinned first man mother, (parents both first men blood), and add in a fair skinned Targaryen, (parents both fair skinned Targaryens), and end up with a child who is darker than his first men/Andal siblings? Simple answer is you don’t.
Same as if you take a fair skinned first man mother and a fair skinned first man father. The answer is NOT a darker skin color....
Martin actually gives us an example to compare Jon’s skin tone too. With the same basic parentage bloodline. Written in the main series. Nymeria Sand. Daughter of Oberyn Martell, and a high born noble of Volantis. Only the most pure blood families who can trace their families back to Valyria can live behind the Black Wall. So basically it’s about as pure blood as you’ll find outside of Targaryen lineage. So a good example to see what we should expect a Valyrian/Martell cross to look like.
Now the Martells- here is how Martin envisioned the Martells. And if you want to bring up the article it’s in the Sarella Sand wiki page, in the Appearance and Character section. First sentence: Sarella has a light-brown skin.[4] The 4 links to a Not a Blog discussing what Martin sees the Martells as regionally. Basically Southern European. Specifically Italian and Greek.
As for the Dornishmen, well, though by and large I reject one to one analogies, I've always pictured the "salty Dornish" as being more Mediterranean than African in appearance; Greek, Spanish, Italian, Portugese, etc. Dark hair and eyes, olive skin. Pedro Pascal is Chilean. (Check out Amok's version of the Red Viper, that's how I saw him. Or Magali Villenueve's beautiful and sexy portrait of Princess Arianne).
Not a Blog: We’re Number One.....
This is highly relevant as many fans see the Martells as an entirely different regional people. They are not Africans, not Middle Eastern people’s. No they are Greek, Italian..... basically a darker European than say a Englishman, or Scottish..... but still a European. Now on the skin tone, think about what Bran said, Robb is fair skinned.... Jon is dark where Robb is fair. Take a say Scottish and a Italian..... the child will likely be darker than other Scottish, but lighter than other Italians. Or look at black or brown and white couples, you get more of a brown skinned child... darker than one, lighter than the other.
Now back to Nymeria Sand, and how she gives us the answer to what Bran meant by dark where Robb was fair... her pale milk skin compared to the other Martells. Jon being darker than Robb. Opposites but the same.
Areo Hotah describes Nymeria as having pale milk skin in A Feast for Crows Ch 2, but mentions her olive skin in A Dance with Dragons 38.
Nymeria Sand was five-and-twenty, and slender as a willow. Her straight black hair, worn in a long braid bound up with red-gold wire, made a widow’s peak above her dark eyes, just as her father’s had. With her high cheekbones, full lips, and MILK-PALE SKIN, she had all the beauty that her elder sister lacked … but Obara’s mother had been an Oldtown whore, whilst Nym was born from the noblest blood of old Volantis.”
AFFC Ch 2. The Captain of Guards
Hotah studied each of them in turn. Obara, rusted nails and boiled leather, with her angry, close-set eyes and rat-brown hair. Nymeria, languid, elegant, OLIVE-SKINNED, her long black braid bound up in red-gold wire. Tyene, blue-eyed and blond, a child-woman with her soft hands and little giggles.”
ADWD Ch 38 The Watcher
And it’s one of the two main reasons why Eddard CANNOT bring Jon south with him to Kings Landing. The first is Jon’s skin tone, which as we see with the common thinking of Northerners all Dornish are the same shown as Arya meets Edric Dayne. The other is Jon’s eyes.
But now we get to the most common feature in Westeros. One that somehow is a Stark feature. And that many miss is actually a Targaryen feature, and a feature ALL OVER Westeros and Essos. The Long Face.
Jon’s Long Face
This section is covering one of the biggest misread clues in the series. Jon’s long face. The Starks long face. The Targaryens Long Face. The Mormont long face. The Iron Born long face. I could go on, and we will, as This has been used for years as evidence. But it is one of the most common faces.
The problem is, it’s not the shape of the face that is the Stark feature so like Ned’s face, or having more of the North, but the EXPRESSIONS on the face.
Simple put a long face feature is the face is longer than it is wide. Super common actually.
Now here’s where it’s interesting, what is a long face also? A expression.
2 Definitions saying the same thing:
LONG FACE
From Merriam-Webster
Definition of long face
: a facial expression of sadness or melancholy
Macmillan Dictionary:
Long Face noun
a sad, disappointed, or serious expression on someone’s face
Both dictionaries describe it as facial expressions. Not the features like a chin, nose, eyes.... and it’s born out with the rest of the description: solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away..... not once is it features. It’s only expressions.
So the first thing is we need to bust the myth that it is a Stark trait. Yes some of the Starks have a long face. Some do not.
But so do multiple houses. And other people’s.
Let’s start with the two most important groups that is relevant to the discussion: Starks and Targaryens. Both are long faced.
Targaryen long Faces:
Fire and Blood:
Alyssa Targaryen- The likeness faded as the princess grew older, however; long-faced and skinny, Alyssa had little of her sister’s beauty.”
Vaegon Targaryen- Comely was perhaps too generous a word for Prince Vaegon, who had the silver-gold hair and purple eyes of the Targaryens, but was long of face and round of shoulder even at ten, with a pinched sour cast to his mouth that made men suspect he had recently been sucking on a lemon.”
So Spake Martin: NOVEMBER 01, 2005
TARGARYEN KINGS.
Aerys I- AERYS I. Bookish. Spindly and stooped, his robes rich and elaborate but soiled, as if he has forgotten to change them. Long straight hair, long thin face, long thin mustache, long pointed beard. In his hand is an old scroll, and other books and scrolls are visible in the portrait. His eyes red-rimmed from reading. The dragon crown is atop a pile of books, as if he has forgotten to put it on.
So as we can see a long face is a recurring feature in Targaryen Lineage. The issue with the Targaryen family tree is we are not sure how common it actually is. We do not have descriptions for a vast amount of the children.
Then we turn to the Starks, we all know Jon and Arya, Eddard and Lyanna along with their father, Rickard Stark had long faces. We also know Brandon and Benjen do not have the long face.
Just to be clear, here is the wiki appearance of Brandon and Benjen.
Brandon Stark- Brandon was in appearance and character very different from Eddard.[5] He had grey eyes,[6] and was tall and handsome.[5][4]
Benjen Stark- The gaunt Benjen has sharp features and blue-grey eyes, in which a hint of laughter is often present. The thin ranger has long legs.[1]
So no, the long face is not a Stark defining feature any more or less than it’s a Targaryen feature. Both have members with it, and members without it.
So what about those just in the main series that have long faces?
Northern Long Faces:
Rickard Stark- Lord Rickard Stark, Ned's father, had a long, stern face
Eddard Stark- Ned turned away from them to gaze out the window, his long face silent and thoughtful.
Arya Stark- Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn.
Jon Snow- He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away.
Eddison Tollett-Edd looked at the axe doubtfully, the rain running down his long face.
Dacey Mormont-Lady Maege's eldest daughter was quite pretty; tall and willowy, with a shy smile that made her long face light up.
Alys Karstark-She looked enough like Arya to give him pause, but only for a moment. A tall, skinny, coltish girl, all legs and elbows, her brown hair was woven in a thick braid and bound about with strips of leather. She had a long face, a pointy chin, small ears.
Dragonstone:
Alester Florent- He was an older man, tall and slender, with silvery grey hair, a pointed beard, and a long elegant face twisted in fear.
Iron Islands Long Faces:
Ser Harris Harlaw-"No." Victarion looked across the hall, to where Ser Harras Harlaw sat drinking wine from a golden cup; a tall man, long-faced and austere
King’s Landing:
Ser Ilyn Payne-standing there silent with his dead eyes and his long pocked face.
Essos:
Hizdahr zo Loraq- The nobleman had wings of wiry red-black hair sprouting from his temples. They made him look as if his head were about to take flight. His long face was made even longer by a beard bound with rings of gold.
Haldan Halfmaester-Sweat had left dark rings beneath the arms of his light linen robes, and he had the same sour look on his long face as at Selhorys, when he returned to the Shy Maid to confess that the dwarf was gone.
The Little Pigeon 8 soldiers-His soldiers were the tallest that any of the Windblown had ever seen; the shortest stood seven feet tall, the tallest close to eight. All were long-faced and long-legged, and the stilts built into the legs of their ornate armor made them longer still.
Hugh Hungerford- Hugh Hungerford was slim and saturnine, long-legged, long-faced, clad in faded finery.
Nurse- Their master's overseer was waiting to take charge of them, with a mule cart and two soldiers. He had a long narrow face and a chin beard bound about with golden wire, and his stiff red-black hair swept out from his temples to form a pair of taloned hands.
Barristan Selmy- A flicker of doubt passed across the long, solemn face of Barristan Selmy. "As you command."
Prob missed a few, but you can get the point. It’s a facial feature everywhere. All over Essos and Westeros. What does this mean? It’s not a Stark only trait.
LOOKS MORE LIKE THAN
This section covers a interesting often misread pattern Martin has of comparing Jon to his kin and the North. It’s one of the main reasons we think he is Lyanna’s.
More of the North:
Tyrion is our speaker about Jon. The key thing is Tyrion sees Jon by night, outside. And outside while camping in the evening. Low light events. Remember the eyes in part one.
He grinned. “You are the bastard, though.”
“Lord Eddard Stark is my father,” Jon admitted stiffly.
Lannister studied his face. “Yes,” he said. “I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.”
“Half brothers,” Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf’s comment, but he tried not to let it show.
AGOT Jon 1
They meet as Jon leaves the feast at NIGHT.
Tyrion recognizes Jon as Eddard’s bastard. Jon confirms it. But notice what is actually said. Yes Tyrion can see some similarities. Dark hair at night, long face, and eyes that would definately look black at night. Close enough to pass as a bastard son. Compared to his brothers. The TULLY LOOKING BROTHERS.
But look what else is unsaid. Tyrion has no ideas at all about who Jon’s mother is. So he sees nothing of her. How do you see what you don’t know to look for? But the point is the underlined items, they are the true reason Tyrion thinks as he does as I will show you later.
Next is Arya.
A shade more exhausting than needlework," Jon observed.
"A shade more fun than needlework," Arya gave back at him. Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her.
"Why aren't you down in the yard?" Arya asked him.
Arya 1 AGOT
Jon and Arya had their fathers face, they were the only ones out of the siblings. It’s once again comparing Jon to the TULLY LOOKING SIBLINGS. The other detail is the Tully looking children had EASY SMILES. Jon and Arya don’t.
And then Catelyn:
Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. "Jon must go," she said now.
AGOT Catylen 2
As he grew Jon LOOKED MORE LIKE Ned than any of her TULLY LOOKING SONS. It’s always comparing Jon looking like a Stark, to someone who DOES NOT look like a Stark.
So yes of course Jon LOOKS LIKE A STARK.
When you compare a dark haired Jon with dark eyes, to a red-brown haired/blue eyed kid who looks like a Tully.
Also when it’s Sansa’s thoughts.
Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.
AGOT Sansa 1
Here’s some other quotes showing how LOOKED MORE LIKE is word trickery.
Ser Jaime Lannister LOOKED MORE LIKE the knights in the stories, and he was of the Kingsguard too, but Robb said he had killed the old mad king and shouldn't count anymore. AGOT Bran 2
Ser Jaime?" Even in soiled pink satin and torn lace, Brienne LOOKED MORE LIKE a man in a gown than a proper woman. "I am grateful, but . . . you were well away. Why come back?"
ASOS Jaime 6
Though he bore a bull's head upon his surcoat and horns upon his helm, Ser Forley could not have been less bovine. He was a short, spare, hard-bitten man. With his pinched nose, bald pate, and grizzled brown beard, he LOOKED MORE LIKE an innkeep than a knight.
AFFC Jaime 7
It’s a pattern, using the same expression.
In every one of these cases, the person looks more like something else. A true knight, a man, a Innkeep. But in every case it’s something they are not. Same as Jon, he looks more like a Stark than the Starks, but he IS NOT a Stark.
Arya and Jon once again being grouped together based on brown hair, and long face and COMPARED TO THE TULLY MOTHER.
She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"
AGOT Eddard 9
And Eddard himself, and once again it’s subtle word usage. So like a younger version. Not a younger version of Ned’s. Or a replica of, a copy of, not Jon looks like Ned, But SO LIKE a younger version. Pretty much just a alternate way of saying MORE LIKE.
And then we arrive at the last key point. EXPRESSIONS ON THE FACE that truly drive the belief of Jon being Ned’s bastard.
From Tyrion, who while drunk and yes it was dark the first visit, missed what a 7 year old boy noticed. Over and over throughout the trip to the wall, the stay there and even when he sees the Martells. Jon’s darker skin.
One of the paragraphs in the series that is nothing but irony.
He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son. "What are you reading about?" he asked.
"Dragons," Tyrion told him.
AGOT Tyrion 2
What does Tyrion focus on when looking at the Stark face, not the features other than it’s a long face, Not nose, chin, high cheekbones. But the EXPRESSIONS on the face. That is what drives the resemblance where people don’t question about Jon.
What drives the resemblance is this: Jon’s face is Solemn, Guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Basically a unhappy, closed off expression.
And notice what is the Stark face to Tyrion is indeed backed up with Catelyn: long solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. It’s not features, it’s the expression on the face.... the personality if you will. How they act...
Catelyn had always thought Robb looked like her; like Bran and Rickon and Sansa, he had the Tully coloring, the auburn hair, the blue eyes. Yet now for the first time she saw something of Eddard Stark in his face, something as stern and hard as the north. "What am I doing?" she echoed, puzzled. "How can you ask that? What do you imagine I'm doing? I am taking care of your brother. I am taking care of Bran."
AGOT Catelyn 3
Robb flat out does not look like Ned. Straight from his mother. Who would definitely notice.
The one time Catylen actually sees something of Eddard Stark in Robb’s face and it’s Ned’s expressions, not features. Something stern and hard as the North.
Which brings us back to Tyrion. Jon has MORE OF THE NORTH IN HIM THAN HIS BROTHERS.
““You’re Ned Stark’s bastard, aren’t you?”
Jon felt a coldness pass right through him. He pressed his lips together and said nothing.
“Did I offend you?” Lannister said. “Sorry. Dwarfs don’t have to be tactful. Generations of capering fools in motley have won me the right to dress badly and say any damn thing that comes into my head.” He grinned. “You are the bastard, though.”
Lord Eddard Stark is my father," Jon admitted stiffly.
Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
"Half brothers," Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf's comment, but he tried not to let it show.
Let me give you some counsel, bastard,” Lannister said. “Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.”
AGOT Jon 1
What is the council for? Jon’s EXPRESSIONS. His coldness, the stiffness, the not letting his pleased expression show. He is indeed like Ned in that aspect.
Indeed we see it with Ned not too much later:
““Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”
“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …”
Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”
“Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn.”
“I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child.”
“You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed.” He slapped a hand on his knee. “Well, I’ll not press you if you feel so strong about it, though I swear, at times you’re so prickly you ought to take the hedgehog as your sigil.””
Moods leading to expressions, the same as Jon. That’s what they are truly seeing between the two making them so similar.
But that will about conclude this cause honestly I’m sick of typing already. The rest will fall in the next part, where we can piece together what happened in the rebellion by what we are told in the main series, and what we learn from how the Targaryens acted historically in certain situations and times of unrest in Fire and Blood.
In part two the main focus will be on the other misunderstood parts of Jon’s looks.
1. Jon’s skin tone
2. Jon’s Long Face And how it is actually a feature for both Jon and the Starks AND Targaryens. Amongst others.
3. The resemblance to Ned is actually in their FACIAL EXPRESSIONS, basically sad, solemn.... Jon looks more like Eddard than his brothers...
4. The actual true irony of Jon being almost a perfect copy of his mother’s family Unlike what Tyrion thinks.
Jon’s looks has always been his protection, but not in the way we assume. The majority opinion is Rhaegar and Lyanna, with Jon luckily enough looking like Eddard to hide as his son.
This is actually not correct. His cover has been his Targaryen/Martell features being mistaken for Stark features. People, for the most part only think of Targaryens as those that look like Rhaegar, Dany, Rhaella... The characters alive only remember the silver haired versions as that has been the last 3 generations of Targaryens.Jaehaerys 2- Aerys 2- Rhaegar
Only those about as old as Barristan would remember the last dark haired Targaryen. Prince. The Prince of Dragonflies.
Yet it leaves a huge question, if Jon is Stark looking with none of his mother in him, why is Ned hiding him?
Think about this statement from Cercei, I glimpsed him once at Winterfell," the queen said, "though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father."
Cercei flat out says the Starks were trying to hide Jon from the Royal Party. Why? He looks like his father right? Cercei thinks so in her one glimpse of him. Ned fully claims him as his bastard son for all the North to see. Why hide him? That just brings more suspicion down on them.
If he’s grey eyed truly. Truly looks like a Stark. If he looks like Ned, there is no danger, no need to hide. It actually raises questions. It’s because he doesn’t look like a Stark in key ways. The eyes, the skin, and in his hair. It’s close enough to blend in to a degree. Say at night, by firelight. And it’s why Jon has to be kept away, or hidden, during the DAY when it’s much more noticeable.
But there is one feature that is noticeable, and is noticed. That makes Cercei believe Jon’s mother is Dornish. Ashara’s child that Ned stole, a Dornish peasants child, or a whore after just one glimpse of Jon.
Jon’s Skin Tone
Jon being any sort of Stark is a lie and it starts in Bran 1. So let’s see who Jon actually was born from.
What is Jon’s skin tone? Realistically he should be pale skinned, as he is supposed to be either Targaryen/First Men descended, R+L.
Or First Men/First Men descended, N+A, B+A.
Every one of those parental combos have one thing in common that shows us they are wrong, ALL are fair skinned and cannot give us a child dark where he should be fair.
The answer is given to us all the way back in Bran 1 AGOT. The very first true chapter, in our very first description of the characters.
It MUST BE READ with the preceding paragraph describing Robb. One of the biggest clues is given to us right off the bat, but cannot be truly figured out till later. And it is one of the most overlooked because we only read Robb’s section or Jon’s section instead of comparing them together as Martin intended.
“The deserter died bravely,” Robb said. He was BIG and BROAD and growing every day, with his MOTHER’S COLORING the FAIR SKIN, RED-BROWN HAIR, and BLUE EYES of the Tullys of Riverrun. “He had courage, at the least.”
“No,” Jon Snow said quietly. “It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark.” Jon’s eyes were a GREY SO DARK THEY SEEMED ALMOST BLACK, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was SLENDER where Robb was muscular, DARK WHERE ROBB WAS FAIR, GRACEFULL and QUICK where his half brother was strong and fast.”
Bran 1, AGOT
These two paragraphs at the very beginning of the books show us EXACTLY who Jon comes from, we just forget the details by the time we are introduced to Jon’s kin. but take a real slow careful read.
Dark where Robb was fair. This is a HUGE point. First men are fair skinned. In the North, AND in Dorne. In Dorne even those of mixed First Men/Andal descent are fair skinned. The Targaryens are fair skinned also. So think about it for a second. no matter what parentage you believe in, how do you get a fair skinned mother, Ashara, Lyanna, Wylla, whoever.
Add in a fair skinned father: Rhaegar, Eddard, Brandon, Arthur.... and churn out a child that is noticeably darker than he should be by a 7 year old?
Umm no..
Fair skin Mother+ fair skin father does not equal a child that is DARK WHERE ROBB IS FAIR. Only one population in all of Westeros is darker skinned than the pale skinned first men, and the pale skinned Andals, and that’s the Dornish. Specifically the Rhoynar people. Let’s look at the different Dornish population groups from the WIKI:
In Dorne, the descent from the Rhoynar is strongest. The Rhoynar were a slender people with smooth olive skin, black hair and dark eyes. Their impact on the Dornish gene pool is strongest along the coast, and grows faint farther inland. Dornishmen with more Andal and First Men blood are larger and fairer than those with more Rhoynish blood.[4]
According to King Daeron I Targaryen's observations during his wars in Dorne, there are three groups of Dornishmen:
Salty Dornishmen live along the coasts, mainly along the Broken Arm region, where the Red Mountains stretch out into the Sea of Dorne. These Dornishmen are lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair, having been most strongly influenced by the Rhoynar.[4][5] The Martells of Sunspear would be considered salty Dornishmen.[4]
Sandy Dornishmen live in the deserts and the long river valleys. With faces burned brown by the hot Dornish sun, they are even darker than the salty Dornishmen.[4][5] These may include the Ullers and Qorgyles, Houses which were founded by adventurers who braved the deserts.[6]
Stony Dornishmen live in the passes and heights of the Red Mountains. They have the most Andal and First Men blood.[4][5] Some stony Dornishmen might follow Andal rather than Rhoynar laws of inheritance.[7] They are FAIR OF SKIN, freckle or burn in the sun, and have brown or blond hair.[4][5] These include the Yronwoods with their blond hair and blue eyes,[8] the yellow-haired Fowlers,[9] and the pale blond or dark-haired Daynes.[10][11][12]
Once again, The Rhoynar were a slender people with smooth olive skin, black hair and dark eyes. And they turned into the salty Dornish basically.
Just like with Jon in Bran 1 our first introduction to the Dornish peoples consists of telling us their skins do not match. The first view of Oberyn to King’s Landing blatantly screams at us to remember Bran 1 and the parentage theories and say, wait, why does Jon only match the Martells? The Salty Dornish. Not the First Men descended Stony Dornish. (Lyanna and Ashara)
“There were three sorts of Dornishmen, the first King Daeron had observed. There were the salty Dornishmen who lived along the coasts, the sandy Dornishmen of the deserts and long river valleys, and the stony Dornishmen who made their fastnesses in the passes and heights of the Red Mountains. The salty Dornishmen had the most Rhoynish blood, the stony Dornishmen the least.
All three sorts seemed well represented in Doran’s retinue. The salty Dornishmen were lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair streaming in the wind. The sandy Dornishmen were even darker, their faces burned brown by the hot Dornish sun. They wound long bright scarfs around their helms to ward off sunstroke. The stony Dornishmen were biggest and fairest, sons of the Andals and the First Men, brown-haired or blond, with faces that freckled or burned in the sun instead of browning.”
ASOS Tyrion 5
Look at this straight from Tyrion.
Stony Dornish aka Ashara Dayne, and as a fellow First Man descent, Lyanna Stark
1. Biggest and Fairest
2. Brown haired or Blonde
3. Faces that Freckled or Burned instead of Browning (Tanning)
This is not describing Jon at all. The only feature that comes close at all is Jon’s DARK BROWN HAIR. But even that is too DARK.
Historically Targaryen/Dayne produced Sandy Brown Haired/ Golden Beard, and Sallow skinned Prince Daeron Targaryen.
Daeron the Drunken- Daeron had sallow skin, sandy brown hair and a blonde beard.[4] He was not much of a knight, disliking horses and swords.[4]
So look at the Salty Dornish
1. Lithe and Dark
2. Olive skinned
3. Black Haired
Do we have a Targaryen/Martell child historically? Yes. Prince Baelor Breakspear.
Prince Baelor had the dark hair of his mother, Myriah Martell, a Dornish princess. He kept it cut short and kept his jaw clean-shaven.[1] His nose had been broken twice.[1]
And this- However, many men looked upon Baelor's dark hair and eyes and muttered that he was more Martell than Targaryen.[5]
Isn’t he a closer match with Jon than the Dayne match? Than a First Man mother?
What is Jon? Slender, dark when he should be fair skinned, Dark brown hair, and with eyes so dark they look black.... almost sounds Rhoynar or say Martell already...
So why is this important? Jon is dark where Robb is fair. Robb is fair skinned. Jon is dark where Robb is fair. The irony of it is that Jon did indeed have much of his mother in him unlike what Tyrion and Catelyn thinks...
But out of every aspect of Jon’s looks that could be possible explained as Stark or be similar enough to hide Jon’s parentage, the dark skinned where Robb was fair skinned is the one aspect that can’t be played off or be similar enough to hide. Especially if Jon goes south. We forget even in our world the further towards the equator you are, the brighter the sun. The more people darken in the sun. The further north the less powerful is the word I guess the sun is.
The same rules apply here. Jon is hidden in the North, far from Dorne, King’s Landing, and the sun that would truly bring out his darker skin tone. Which is one of the main reasons he cannot go south....
We are not given the difference in the sun till AFFC. Where Martin explicitly tells us it’s a hell of a difference....
And the Dornish sun was hotter than the pale, wan sun of Norvos, glaring down from a blue sky day after day.”
AFFC Ch 2 The Captain of Guards
The pale, wan sun of Norvos, so hugely different from the climate of the South. Even the climate of Essos, look at Dany and Aryas stories. Bravos is getting ice, Mereen is still hot as hell. Think about Jon’s story. What is the one thing that happens all through Jon’s story? Snow. Being bundled up in massive amounts of furs, gloves, beards....
What does this do? Further hides Jon’s skin. His DARKER SKIN TONE than he should have.
Now remember Robert talking to Ned? About Summer snows???? There is no true honest to goodness summer in the North. They basically live under the pale, wan sun also.
“Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!” The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended. “Late summer snows are common enough,” Ned said. “I hope they did not trouble you. They are usually mild.” “The Others take your mild snows,” Robert swore. “What will this place be like in winter? I shudder to think.” “The winters are hard,” Ned admitted. “But the Starks will endure. We always have.” “You need to come south,” Robert told him. “You need a taste of summer before it flees.”
AGOT Eddard 1
Now remember, Jon is already darker than Robb. A 7 year old Bran noticed in the first chapter. The first time we are introduced to these characters. There is one thing else Bran at 7 notices in the same chapter. Ghost eyes being the only one of the wolf pups eyes being open.
It shows Bran is observant, he never held some of the pups at this point. But he noticed.
People already think Jon has Dornish in him. Catelyn, Cercei, Ned’s soldiers. Now imagine how obvious it would be if he goes south. It would be highly obvious if Jon darkened in the sun even more. Prime Example: Nymeria Sand
But let’s look at what each thinks. Catelyn heard the rumors of Ashara. So far we never know if they ever saw each other. But Ned’s story is a whore on campaign. Wylla to the King. But Catelyn still believes it’s Ashara or she has no clue. She never heard the Wylla story.
Arya, Sansa never hear the Wylla story. Arya heard it from Ned Dayne who asked for Jon Snow by name. And Sansa hears rumors Jon’s mother is common. From the king and Queen as they are the only ones who think common whores.
Ned’s soldiers would have the best knowledge Ned did not bang whores as they guarded his tents. And know Ned had no kid until he went to Dorne. But they were not there supposedly, only Ned and his 6 companions. Which means they think it happened at Harrenhall. As the Stable masters son explains to Arya. Putting Jon at least well over a year older than Ned claims.
And Cercei, who admits she saw Jon once, at a glance.
Snow, the boy is called,” Pycelle said unhelpfully. “I glimpsed him once at Winterfell,” the queen said, “though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father.””
AFFC Cercei 4
But from that one glimpse what does she see? Enough to think Stark yes, but something else. Dornish. Once again she admits she has seen Jon, and yet even though she accept Ned as the father, she thinks the Lady Ashara, who Cercei would have seen. But what is the other options? A Dornish peasant, even though they never fought in Dorne, or burned any castles in DORNE. A whore? If she thinks that why is she harping on Dornish peasants or Ashara? And once again we have evidence that Ashara has a child. But unlike with Barristan thinking it was a stillborn daughter, she implies it lived and was Jon. Which still implies Jon is well over a year older than Ned claims. See a pattern yet?
““Honor,” she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?” “For a start,” said Ned, “I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow.” “Exile,” she said. “A bitter cup to drink from.””
AGOT Eddard 12
Now we all know the rough timeline, once again Ned didn’t stay in Dorne for 9 months after the TOJ, Starfall. He didn’t burn Dornish castles, rape peasants, or get Ashara pregnant at the end of the rebellion. The child was already born. So once again your left with Harrenhall as the accepted conception place for Jon in the characters minds. Putting him well over a year older than Robb at least.
The whore is self explanatory. Jon your mom was a whore. Name was Wylla, I was drunk. So don’t ask. End of mystery.
But the Dornish peasant is the interesting one. Cercei has zero reason to even think this as Ned never fought in Dorne during the war, never even got south of the Riverlands. Until after Kings Landing and the Reach surrendered. Yet Ned wasn’t in Dorne long enough to have a kid anyways. The only reason you mention a Dornish peasant is if you see Dornish features.
And what feature? Jon’s skin color. Dark where Robb was fair. Noticeable so.
And this links to one other person. Sansa, who hears whispers Jon’s mother was common. She can only hear this one place. Not in Winterfell as they think it was Ashara, and whispered Ashara until Ned shut it down. Catelyn thinks Ashara till she dies.
The only two who think peasants are Robert due to Ned claiming Jon is Wyllas, and Cercei who thinks a Dornish peasant.
Why couldn't Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Myrcella? She would have liked a sister like that.
Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.
AGOT Sansa 1
Jon does not have hair like Aryas. Jon- dark brown hair. Arya- mousy brown hair of the Starks. Eddard, Lyanna. Long face is featured in numerous houses.
But notice the rest, Jon and Arya look alike because Sansa is comparing them to the Tully looks of Catelyn. Not comparing Jon and Arya to each other by Stark actual looks. Word trickery. Just both don’t look like Catelyn.
And likely the common mother rumors came from the entourage that Sansa is hearing.
But first look at the peoples of Westeros before we go further.
First men/Andal people are FAIR SKINNED. TARGARYENS are FAIR SKINNED.
Rhoynar are NOT FAIR SKINNED.
So how do you take a fair skinned first man mother, (parents both first men blood), and add in a fair skinned Targaryen, (parents both fair skinned Targaryens), and end up with a child who is darker than his first men/Andal siblings? Simple answer is you don’t.
Same as if you take a fair skinned first man mother and a fair skinned first man father. The answer is NOT a darker skin color....
Martin actually gives us an example to compare Jon’s skin tone too. With the same basic parentage bloodline. Written in the main series. Nymeria Sand. Daughter of Oberyn Martell, and a high born noble of Volantis. Only the most pure blood families who can trace their families back to Valyria can live behind the Black Wall. So basically it’s about as pure blood as you’ll find outside of Targaryen lineage. So a good example to see what we should expect a Valyrian/Martell cross to look like.
Now the Martells- here is how Martin envisioned the Martells. And if you want to bring up the article it’s in the Sarella Sand wiki page, in the Appearance and Character section. First sentence: Sarella has a light-brown skin.[4] The 4 links to a Not a Blog discussing what Martin sees the Martells as regionally. Basically Southern European. Specifically Italian and Greek.
As for the Dornishmen, well, though by and large I reject one to one analogies, I've always pictured the "salty Dornish" as being more Mediterranean than African in appearance; Greek, Spanish, Italian, Portugese, etc. Dark hair and eyes, olive skin. Pedro Pascal is Chilean. (Check out Amok's version of the Red Viper, that's how I saw him. Or Magali Villenueve's beautiful and sexy portrait of Princess Arianne).
Not a Blog: We’re Number One.....
This is highly relevant as many fans see the Martells as an entirely different regional people. They are not Africans, not Middle Eastern people’s. No they are Greek, Italian..... basically a darker European than say a Englishman, or Scottish..... but still a European. Now on the skin tone, think about what Bran said, Robb is fair skinned.... Jon is dark where Robb is fair. Take a say Scottish and a Italian..... the child will likely be darker than other Scottish, but lighter than other Italians. Or look at black or brown and white couples, you get more of a brown skinned child... darker than one, lighter than the other.
Now back to Nymeria Sand, and how she gives us the answer to what Bran meant by dark where Robb was fair... her pale milk skin compared to the other Martells. Jon being darker than Robb. Opposites but the same.
Areo Hotah describes Nymeria as having pale milk skin in A Feast for Crows Ch 2, but mentions her olive skin in A Dance with Dragons 38.
Nymeria Sand was five-and-twenty, and slender as a willow. Her straight black hair, worn in a long braid bound up with red-gold wire, made a widow’s peak above her dark eyes, just as her father’s had. With her high cheekbones, full lips, and MILK-PALE SKIN, she had all the beauty that her elder sister lacked … but Obara’s mother had been an Oldtown whore, whilst Nym was born from the noblest blood of old Volantis.”
AFFC Ch 2. The Captain of Guards
Hotah studied each of them in turn. Obara, rusted nails and boiled leather, with her angry, close-set eyes and rat-brown hair. Nymeria, languid, elegant, OLIVE-SKINNED, her long black braid bound up in red-gold wire. Tyene, blue-eyed and blond, a child-woman with her soft hands and little giggles.”
ADWD Ch 38 The Watcher
And it’s one of the two main reasons why Eddard CANNOT bring Jon south with him to Kings Landing. The first is Jon’s skin tone, which as we see with the common thinking of Northerners all Dornish are the same shown as Arya meets Edric Dayne. The other is Jon’s eyes.
But now we get to the most common feature in Westeros. One that somehow is a Stark feature. And that many miss is actually a Targaryen feature, and a feature ALL OVER Westeros and Essos. The Long Face.
Jon’s Long Face
This section is covering one of the biggest misread clues in the series. Jon’s long face. The Starks long face. The Targaryens Long Face. The Mormont long face. The Iron Born long face. I could go on, and we will, as This has been used for years as evidence. But it is one of the most common faces.
The problem is, it’s not the shape of the face that is the Stark feature so like Ned’s face, or having more of the North, but the EXPRESSIONS on the face.
Simple put a long face feature is the face is longer than it is wide. Super common actually.
Now here’s where it’s interesting, what is a long face also? A expression.
2 Definitions saying the same thing:
LONG FACE
From Merriam-Webster
Definition of long face
: a facial expression of sadness or melancholy
Macmillan Dictionary:
Long Face noun
a sad, disappointed, or serious expression on someone’s face
Both dictionaries describe it as facial expressions. Not the features like a chin, nose, eyes.... and it’s born out with the rest of the description: solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away..... not once is it features. It’s only expressions.
So the first thing is we need to bust the myth that it is a Stark trait. Yes some of the Starks have a long face. Some do not.
But so do multiple houses. And other people’s.
Let’s start with the two most important groups that is relevant to the discussion: Starks and Targaryens. Both are long faced.
Targaryen long Faces:
Fire and Blood:
Alyssa Targaryen- The likeness faded as the princess grew older, however; long-faced and skinny, Alyssa had little of her sister’s beauty.”
Vaegon Targaryen- Comely was perhaps too generous a word for Prince Vaegon, who had the silver-gold hair and purple eyes of the Targaryens, but was long of face and round of shoulder even at ten, with a pinched sour cast to his mouth that made men suspect he had recently been sucking on a lemon.”
So Spake Martin: NOVEMBER 01, 2005
TARGARYEN KINGS.
Aerys I- AERYS I. Bookish. Spindly and stooped, his robes rich and elaborate but soiled, as if he has forgotten to change them. Long straight hair, long thin face, long thin mustache, long pointed beard. In his hand is an old scroll, and other books and scrolls are visible in the portrait. His eyes red-rimmed from reading. The dragon crown is atop a pile of books, as if he has forgotten to put it on.
So as we can see a long face is a recurring feature in Targaryen Lineage. The issue with the Targaryen family tree is we are not sure how common it actually is. We do not have descriptions for a vast amount of the children.
Then we turn to the Starks, we all know Jon and Arya, Eddard and Lyanna along with their father, Rickard Stark had long faces. We also know Brandon and Benjen do not have the long face.
Just to be clear, here is the wiki appearance of Brandon and Benjen.
Brandon Stark- Brandon was in appearance and character very different from Eddard.[5] He had grey eyes,[6] and was tall and handsome.[5][4]
Benjen Stark- The gaunt Benjen has sharp features and blue-grey eyes, in which a hint of laughter is often present. The thin ranger has long legs.[1]
So no, the long face is not a Stark defining feature any more or less than it’s a Targaryen feature. Both have members with it, and members without it.
So what about those just in the main series that have long faces?
Northern Long Faces:
Rickard Stark- Lord Rickard Stark, Ned's father, had a long, stern face
Eddard Stark- Ned turned away from them to gaze out the window, his long face silent and thoughtful.
Arya Stark- Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn.
Jon Snow- He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away.
Eddison Tollett-Edd looked at the axe doubtfully, the rain running down his long face.
Dacey Mormont-Lady Maege's eldest daughter was quite pretty; tall and willowy, with a shy smile that made her long face light up.
Alys Karstark-She looked enough like Arya to give him pause, but only for a moment. A tall, skinny, coltish girl, all legs and elbows, her brown hair was woven in a thick braid and bound about with strips of leather. She had a long face, a pointy chin, small ears.
Dragonstone:
Alester Florent- He was an older man, tall and slender, with silvery grey hair, a pointed beard, and a long elegant face twisted in fear.
Iron Islands Long Faces:
Ser Harris Harlaw-"No." Victarion looked across the hall, to where Ser Harras Harlaw sat drinking wine from a golden cup; a tall man, long-faced and austere
King’s Landing:
Ser Ilyn Payne-standing there silent with his dead eyes and his long pocked face.
Essos:
Hizdahr zo Loraq- The nobleman had wings of wiry red-black hair sprouting from his temples. They made him look as if his head were about to take flight. His long face was made even longer by a beard bound with rings of gold.
Haldan Halfmaester-Sweat had left dark rings beneath the arms of his light linen robes, and he had the same sour look on his long face as at Selhorys, when he returned to the Shy Maid to confess that the dwarf was gone.
The Little Pigeon 8 soldiers-His soldiers were the tallest that any of the Windblown had ever seen; the shortest stood seven feet tall, the tallest close to eight. All were long-faced and long-legged, and the stilts built into the legs of their ornate armor made them longer still.
Hugh Hungerford- Hugh Hungerford was slim and saturnine, long-legged, long-faced, clad in faded finery.
Nurse- Their master's overseer was waiting to take charge of them, with a mule cart and two soldiers. He had a long narrow face and a chin beard bound about with golden wire, and his stiff red-black hair swept out from his temples to form a pair of taloned hands.
Barristan Selmy- A flicker of doubt passed across the long, solemn face of Barristan Selmy. "As you command."
Prob missed a few, but you can get the point. It’s a facial feature everywhere. All over Essos and Westeros. What does this mean? It’s not a Stark only trait.
LOOKS MORE LIKE THAN
This section covers a interesting often misread pattern Martin has of comparing Jon to his kin and the North. It’s one of the main reasons we think he is Lyanna’s.
More of the North:
Tyrion is our speaker about Jon. The key thing is Tyrion sees Jon by night, outside. And outside while camping in the evening. Low light events. Remember the eyes in part one.
He grinned. “You are the bastard, though.”
“Lord Eddard Stark is my father,” Jon admitted stiffly.
Lannister studied his face. “Yes,” he said. “I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.”
“Half brothers,” Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf’s comment, but he tried not to let it show.
AGOT Jon 1
They meet as Jon leaves the feast at NIGHT.
Tyrion recognizes Jon as Eddard’s bastard. Jon confirms it. But notice what is actually said. Yes Tyrion can see some similarities. Dark hair at night, long face, and eyes that would definately look black at night. Close enough to pass as a bastard son. Compared to his brothers. The TULLY LOOKING BROTHERS.
But look what else is unsaid. Tyrion has no ideas at all about who Jon’s mother is. So he sees nothing of her. How do you see what you don’t know to look for? But the point is the underlined items, they are the true reason Tyrion thinks as he does as I will show you later.
Next is Arya.
A shade more exhausting than needlework," Jon observed.
"A shade more fun than needlework," Arya gave back at him. Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It had been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her.
"Why aren't you down in the yard?" Arya asked him.
Arya 1 AGOT
Jon and Arya had their fathers face, they were the only ones out of the siblings. It’s once again comparing Jon to the TULLY LOOKING SIBLINGS. The other detail is the Tully looking children had EASY SMILES. Jon and Arya don’t.
And then Catelyn:
Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. "Jon must go," she said now.
AGOT Catylen 2
As he grew Jon LOOKED MORE LIKE Ned than any of her TULLY LOOKING SONS. It’s always comparing Jon looking like a Stark, to someone who DOES NOT look like a Stark.
So yes of course Jon LOOKS LIKE A STARK.
When you compare a dark haired Jon with dark eyes, to a red-brown haired/blue eyed kid who looks like a Tully.
Also when it’s Sansa’s thoughts.
Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.
AGOT Sansa 1
Here’s some other quotes showing how LOOKED MORE LIKE is word trickery.
Ser Jaime Lannister LOOKED MORE LIKE the knights in the stories, and he was of the Kingsguard too, but Robb said he had killed the old mad king and shouldn't count anymore. AGOT Bran 2
Ser Jaime?" Even in soiled pink satin and torn lace, Brienne LOOKED MORE LIKE a man in a gown than a proper woman. "I am grateful, but . . . you were well away. Why come back?"
ASOS Jaime 6
Though he bore a bull's head upon his surcoat and horns upon his helm, Ser Forley could not have been less bovine. He was a short, spare, hard-bitten man. With his pinched nose, bald pate, and grizzled brown beard, he LOOKED MORE LIKE an innkeep than a knight.
AFFC Jaime 7
It’s a pattern, using the same expression.
In every one of these cases, the person looks more like something else. A true knight, a man, a Innkeep. But in every case it’s something they are not. Same as Jon, he looks more like a Stark than the Starks, but he IS NOT a Stark.
Arya and Jon once again being grouped together based on brown hair, and long face and COMPARED TO THE TULLY MOTHER.
She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"
AGOT Eddard 9
And Eddard himself, and once again it’s subtle word usage. So like a younger version. Not a younger version of Ned’s. Or a replica of, a copy of, not Jon looks like Ned, But SO LIKE a younger version. Pretty much just a alternate way of saying MORE LIKE.
And then we arrive at the last key point. EXPRESSIONS ON THE FACE that truly drive the belief of Jon being Ned’s bastard.
From Tyrion, who while drunk and yes it was dark the first visit, missed what a 7 year old boy noticed. Over and over throughout the trip to the wall, the stay there and even when he sees the Martells. Jon’s darker skin.
One of the paragraphs in the series that is nothing but irony.
He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son. "What are you reading about?" he asked.
"Dragons," Tyrion told him.
AGOT Tyrion 2
What does Tyrion focus on when looking at the Stark face, not the features other than it’s a long face, Not nose, chin, high cheekbones. But the EXPRESSIONS on the face. That is what drives the resemblance where people don’t question about Jon.
What drives the resemblance is this: Jon’s face is Solemn, Guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Basically a unhappy, closed off expression.
And notice what is the Stark face to Tyrion is indeed backed up with Catelyn: long solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. It’s not features, it’s the expression on the face.... the personality if you will. How they act...
Catelyn had always thought Robb looked like her; like Bran and Rickon and Sansa, he had the Tully coloring, the auburn hair, the blue eyes. Yet now for the first time she saw something of Eddard Stark in his face, something as stern and hard as the north. "What am I doing?" she echoed, puzzled. "How can you ask that? What do you imagine I'm doing? I am taking care of your brother. I am taking care of Bran."
AGOT Catelyn 3
Robb flat out does not look like Ned. Straight from his mother. Who would definitely notice.
The one time Catylen actually sees something of Eddard Stark in Robb’s face and it’s Ned’s expressions, not features. Something stern and hard as the North.
Which brings us back to Tyrion. Jon has MORE OF THE NORTH IN HIM THAN HIS BROTHERS.
““You’re Ned Stark’s bastard, aren’t you?”
Jon felt a coldness pass right through him. He pressed his lips together and said nothing.
“Did I offend you?” Lannister said. “Sorry. Dwarfs don’t have to be tactful. Generations of capering fools in motley have won me the right to dress badly and say any damn thing that comes into my head.” He grinned. “You are the bastard, though.”
Lord Eddard Stark is my father," Jon admitted stiffly.
Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
"Half brothers," Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf's comment, but he tried not to let it show.
Let me give you some counsel, bastard,” Lannister said. “Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.”
AGOT Jon 1
What is the council for? Jon’s EXPRESSIONS. His coldness, the stiffness, the not letting his pleased expression show. He is indeed like Ned in that aspect.
Indeed we see it with Ned not too much later:
““Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”
“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …”
Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”
“Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn.”
“I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child.”
“You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed.” He slapped a hand on his knee. “Well, I’ll not press you if you feel so strong about it, though I swear, at times you’re so prickly you ought to take the hedgehog as your sigil.””
Moods leading to expressions, the same as Jon. That’s what they are truly seeing between the two making them so similar.
But that will about conclude this cause honestly I’m sick of typing already. The rest will fall in the next part, where we can piece together what happened in the rebellion by what we are told in the main series, and what we learn from how the Targaryens acted historically in certain situations and times of unrest in Fire and Blood.
