Post by kingmonkey on Aug 11, 2015 18:18:29 GMT
freyfamilyreunion, great essay. Really, really enjoyed it. You've managed to weave in a lot of the important symbolism of birth and renewal that really ought to be woven into any such theory, and the essay is full of great observations.
On the negative side, while I think this is a good essay concerning that symbolism of seasons and sacrifice, I don't think there's much here that actually points to Howland. A lot of the arguments you make -- where Lyanna might have been hiding, what Ned's promises entailed etc, -- are not actually arguments for H+L, because they'd be equally applicable if Rhaegar was the father too. Your idea of the inverted love story (beautiful princess rescues handsome prince) is a nice one, but where what actually points to this being what happened? You make some good arguments that it could have happened, but it seems to me the essay is lacking in indicators that it did happen.
In my R+L=J essay for this series (coming soon) I've tried hard to avoid relying too much on symbolic interpretation. I'm trying to show more solid foundations, to avoid the problem of symbolism, that it is so subject to interpretation which often gets out of hand in R+L arguments. Had I done more on the symbolism, I'd have ended up writing something surprisingly similar to your essay, because I do agree with an awful lot of your underlying symbolism. Though obviously I come to a different conclusion.
A few specific points:
Surely the standard role of the Green Man in may day celebrations was as Jack o' the Green, symbolising the wild and uncontrollable spirit of nature, who plays attendance on the Lord & Lady of May?
I've argued this case on the basis of that booming voice. It's obviously incongruous to the way GRRM using the phrase everywhere else in the text, and we have a tantalising comment that Howland Reed can "weave words" as part of his perhaps magical powers -- manipulating his voice, perhaps?
The Quiet Isle is very interesting and those cottages are a noteworthy detail, but I don't think that's the right identification. Glastonbury wasn't a tidal flat, it was a swamp with seasonal high-water flooding. Quiet Isle is a monastery on a hill a little way out to sea, which is accessible at low tide via a causewayed approach. It's a far, far better match for St Michael's Mount. The Joyous Garde is a direct descendant of Glastonbury in the Melwas legend, which also points to a tower (see my Eddard in Wonderland essay over on The Other Place for more), and that points quite strongly to the ToJ.
I think this is a bit of a problem for you. Essentially you put together an argument that the BWR crown is not necessarily a romantic symbol, and standing on its own, that works fine. However you're omitting the Bael the Bard story from the equation, and that seems to me a pretty major omission when talking about blue winter roses.
I'm quite open to the Meera Reed crackpot, and the twin towers is a really nice link for this. Suppose Rhaegar was the father though -- does that make it any less likely? If the idea was keeping R+L's twins separated, and Howland and Ned are the two survivors of the ToJ, then you end up in the same place.
Problem here: aren't Rhaegar and his inner circle all dead at this stage? Who are they protecting them from? And in this scenario, why the secrecy? Surely telling Catelyn would have actually been rather helpful in this scenario?
While this is an interesting idea, doesn't it rather contradict:
...as this would require Howland to be at the most 9 months younger than Rhaegar? He just about could be I guess, but that's pushing his age a bit. I also wonder why the son of Duncan & Jenny would be lord of House Reed. Then there's a problem with the prophecy that Rhaegar was pursuing in your interpretation: a child of Duncan and Jenny is not compatible with the Woods Witch's prophecy of a child from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. Finally, wouldn't this make Howland fire rather than mud?
On the negative side, while I think this is a good essay concerning that symbolism of seasons and sacrifice, I don't think there's much here that actually points to Howland. A lot of the arguments you make -- where Lyanna might have been hiding, what Ned's promises entailed etc, -- are not actually arguments for H+L, because they'd be equally applicable if Rhaegar was the father too. Your idea of the inverted love story (beautiful princess rescues handsome prince) is a nice one, but where what actually points to this being what happened? You make some good arguments that it could have happened, but it seems to me the essay is lacking in indicators that it did happen.
In my R+L=J essay for this series (coming soon) I've tried hard to avoid relying too much on symbolic interpretation. I'm trying to show more solid foundations, to avoid the problem of symbolism, that it is so subject to interpretation which often gets out of hand in R+L arguments. Had I done more on the symbolism, I'd have ended up writing something surprisingly similar to your essay, because I do agree with an awful lot of your underlying symbolism. Though obviously I come to a different conclusion.
A few specific points:
The Green Man is also still a feature in pagan May Day (in some places known as the Beltane festival) celebrations, along with his May Queen. Often the Green Man comes to the celebration as an outsider, someone who takes the May Queen as his bride, and their union represents Spring and Summer’s victory over winter.
Surely the standard role of the Green Man in may day celebrations was as Jack o' the Green, symbolising the wild and uncontrollable spirit of nature, who plays attendance on the Lord & Lady of May?
So I conclude that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was a collaboration between Howland with his magic and Lyanna with her riding.
I've argued this case on the basis of that booming voice. It's obviously incongruous to the way GRRM using the phrase everywhere else in the text, and we have a tantalising comment that Howland Reed can "weave words" as part of his perhaps magical powers -- manipulating his voice, perhaps?
Like the Quiet Isle, Glastonbury is located on a salt water tidal flat, and when the tide is high the town basically becomes an island (or did before drainage canals were utilized).
The Quiet Isle is very interesting and those cottages are a noteworthy detail, but I don't think that's the right identification. Glastonbury wasn't a tidal flat, it was a swamp with seasonal high-water flooding. Quiet Isle is a monastery on a hill a little way out to sea, which is accessible at low tide via a causewayed approach. It's a far, far better match for St Michael's Mount. The Joyous Garde is a direct descendant of Glastonbury in the Melwas legend, which also points to a tower (see my Eddard in Wonderland essay over on The Other Place for more), and that points quite strongly to the ToJ.
The Crown of Blue Roses
And if my theory is correct, and Howland is Jon’s father, then Jon may have a twin sister that he’s been separated from, namely, Meera Reed.
I'm quite open to the Meera Reed crackpot, and the twin towers is a really nice link for this. Suppose Rhaegar was the father though -- does that make it any less likely? If the idea was keeping R+L's twins separated, and Howland and Ned are the two survivors of the ToJ, then you end up in the same place.
So my guess is that Jon and Howland feared that whatever reason or ritual that Rhaegar and his inner circle wanted Lyanna’s children for, it was best that they be kept separated for their own safety.
Problem here: aren't Rhaegar and his inner circle all dead at this stage? Who are they protecting them from? And in this scenario, why the secrecy? Surely telling Catelyn would have actually been rather helpful in this scenario?
The reason that I think that Howland Reed possesses these bloodlines, is that Howland Reed is the child of Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones.
While this is an interesting idea, doesn't it rather contradict:
Can the reader identify that the tale of The Knight of the Laughing Tree depicts an actual basis for a romantic relationship between two persons of similar age
...as this would require Howland to be at the most 9 months younger than Rhaegar? He just about could be I guess, but that's pushing his age a bit. I also wonder why the son of Duncan & Jenny would be lord of House Reed. Then there's a problem with the prophecy that Rhaegar was pursuing in your interpretation: a child of Duncan and Jenny is not compatible with the Woods Witch's prophecy of a child from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. Finally, wouldn't this make Howland fire rather than mud?