Too lazy to get the quote, but does anyone think Brienne's word was Stannis? Cat promised her when the time came, she wouldn't hold her back.
I thought that Martin already confirmed that it was "sword?"
Yeah, PoG set me straight already. I never read SSMs...still can't sleep :/ my ear aches so bad. I hope it's just from the pool and not an ear infection.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I thought that Martin already confirmed that it was "sword?"
Yeah, PoG set me straight already. I never read SSMs...still can't sleep :/ my ear aches so bad. I hope it's just from the pool and not an ear infection.
Yeah. Saw that after I answered... Keep an eye on that ear. I've gotten infections several times in the past few years from swimming... it really sucks! ::hairpull::
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
"Do you know 'The Last of the Giants'?" Without waiting for an answer Ygritte said, "You need a deeper voice than mine to do it proper." Then she sang, "Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth." Tormund Giantsbane heard the words and grinned. "The last of the great mountain giants, who ruled all the world at my birth," he bellowed back through the snow. Longspear Ryk joined in, singing, "Oh, the smallfolk have stolen my forests, they've stolen my rivers and hills." "And they've built a great wall through my valleys, and fished all the fish from my rills," Ygritte and Tormund sang back at him in turn, in suitably gigantic voices.
What do you guys think of the song?
I wonder if they are referring to the last greenseer?
I am confused? Are you wondering about my question on the giants/greenseer?
Yes I am. Why do you think greenseer, if they are singing about giants? If you have an idea, then share it please.
Well the thing I find odd is that those who are singing the song know that there are more one giant left. They know there are dozens, hundreds of them. At the end of ADWD there were two hundred at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea. My personal belief is that song is really about there only being one greenseer left. Granted I do not think many of the wildings know who it actually is but I think Mance may know. Just speculation. I think the Horn of Winter is tied somehow to the powers of the human greenseer. I think the Horn of Winter when blown allows many of those Children of The Forrest in those caves to take over the giants in a similar way Bran does with Hodor. I also think the Horn of Winter is in the crypts of Winterfell and what Mance sought in those crypts. I think if an individual blows that horn three times in a short manner of time the Wall will come down. I think the huge horn Mance did originally find was a different horn and not the Horn of Winter. Several of these ideas I got were from Bran Vras' essay on the Horn of Winter. branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Horn.html
A Clash of Kings - Jon III
"Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the far side . . . but the Night's Watch is only a shadow of what we were, and who remains to oppose the wildlings besides us?
A Storm of Swords - Jon II
They're not wearing skins, Jon realized. That's hair. Shaggy pelts covered their bodies, thick below the waist, sparser above. The stink that came off them was choking, but perhaps that was the mammoths. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth. He looked for great swords ten feet long, but saw only clubs. Most were just the limbs of dead trees, some still trailing shattered branches. A few had stone balls lashed to the ends to make colossal mauls. The song never says if the horn can put them back to sleep. A Storm of Swords - Jon II
"So how did you come by your other names?" Jon asked. "Mance called you the Horn-Blower, didn't he? Mead-king of Ruddy Hall, Husband to Bears, Father to Hosts?" It was the horn blowing he particularly wanted to hear about, but he dared not ask too plainly. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth. Is that where they had come from, them and their mammoths? Had Mance Rayder found the Horn of Joramun, and given it to Tormund Thunderfist to blow?
A Storm of Swords - Jon IV
"Why are you crying, then?"
"Not for fear!" She kicked savagely at the ice beneath her with a heel, chopping out a chunk. "I'm crying because we never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!"
A Storm of Swords - Jon VI
"Jon was using the word in its older sense, I think," Maester Aemon said, "not as a family name but as a title. It derives from the Old Tongue."
"It means lord," Jon agreed. "Styr is the Magnar of some place called Thenn, in the far north of the Frostfangs. He has a hundred of his own men, and a score of raiders who know the Gift almost as well as we do. Mance never found the horn, though, that's something. The Horn of Winter, that's what he was digging for up along the Milkwater."
Maester Aemon paused, washcloth in hand. "The Horn of Winter is an ancient legend. Does the King-beyond-the-Wall truly believe that such a thing exists?" "They all do," said Jon. "Ygritte said they opened a hundred graves . . . graves of kings and heroes, all over the valley of the Milkwater, but they never . . ."
A Storm of Swords - Jon IX
"Well, I am not satisfied, Maester," said the jowly man. "I will hear these explanations for myself. Yes I will!" Jon swallowed his anger. "I abandoned no one. I left the Fist with Qhorin Halfhand to scout the Skirling Pass. I joined the wildlings under orders. The Halfhand feared that Mance might have found the Horn of Winter . . ."
"The Horn of Winter?" Ser Alliser chuckled. "Were you commanded to count their snarks as well, Lord Snow?" "No, but I counted their giants as best I could."
A Storm of Swords - Jon X A warhorn, a bloody great warhorn.
"Yes," Mance said. "The Horn of Winter, that Joramun once blew to wake giants from the earth."
The horn was huge, eight feet along the curve and so wide at the mouth that he could have put his arm inside up to the elbow. If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived. At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow, and graven with runes.
A Storm of Swords - Jon X "Nor you?"
"Nor me." There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. "Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I've come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall." He touched the horn again. "If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more . . ."
"But once the Wall is fallen," Dalla said, "what will stop the Others?"
A Dance with Dragons - Jon III Ser Godry gave a pull on the rope. The King-Beyond-the-Wall had no choice but to stumble after him, the rope choking off his words. When he lost his feet, Godry dragged him the rest of the way. Mance was bloody when the queen's men half-shoved, half-carried him to the cage. A dozen men-at-arms heaved together to hoist him into the air.
Lady Melisandre watched him rise. "FREE FOLK! Here stands your king of lies. And here is the horn he promised would bring down the Wall." Two queen's men brought forth the Horn of Joramun, black and banded with old gold, eight feet long from end to end. Runes were carved into the golden bands, the writing of the First Men. Joramun had died thousands of years ago, but Mance had found his grave beneath a glacier, high up in the Frostfangs. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth. Ygritte had told Jon that Mance never found the horn. She lied, or else Mance kept it secret even from his own.
A thousand captives watched through the wooden bars of their stockade as the horn was lifted high. All were ragged and half-starved. Wildlings, the Seven Kingdoms called them; they named themselves the free folk. They looked neither wild nor free—only hungry, frightened, numb.
A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII
"Did she?" Tormund slapped his thigh and hooted. "She burned that fine big horn, aye. A bloody sin, I call it. A thousand years old, that was. We found it in a giant's grave, and no man o' us had ever seen a horn so big. That must have been why Mance got the notion to tell you it were Joramun's. He wanted you crows to think he had it in his power to blow your bloody Wall down about your knees. But we never found the true horn, not for all our digging. If we had, every kneeler in your Seven Kingdoms would have chunks o' ice to cool his wine all summer."
Jon turned in his saddle, frowning. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. That huge horn with its bands of old gold, incised with ancient runes … had Mance Rayder lied to him, or was Tormund lying now? If Mance's horn was just a feint, where is the true horn? By afternoon the sun had gone, and the day turned grey and gusty. "A snow sky," Tormund announced grimly.
Well the thing I find odd is that those who are singing the song know that there are more one giant left. They know there are dozens, hundreds of them. At the end of ADWD there were two hundred at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea. My personal belief is that song is really about there only being one greenseer left. Granted I do not think many of the wildings know who it actually is but I think Mance may know. Just speculation. I think the Horn of Winter is tied somehow to the powers of the human greenseer. I think the Horn of Winter when blown allows many of those Children of The Forrest in those caves to take over the giants in a similar way Bran does with Hodor. I also think the Horn of Winter is in the crypts of Winterfell and what Mance sought in those crypts. I think if an individual blows that horn three times in a short manner of time the Wall will come down. I think the huge horn Mance did originally find was a different horn and not the Horn of Winter. Several of these ideas I got were from Bran Vras' essay on the Horn of Winter.
Now that's more like it. See you can put your ideas forward and no one will bite.
I'm not entirely sure how the wildlings would know that there is only one greenseer left though. Osha says to Luwin and Bran that giants she has seen with her own eyes, but the Children she has only heard tell about. She's not seen a Child of the Forest, which could just be her, but the bigger implication is that they are hiding as much from the wildlings as they are from the rest of Westeros.
Mance has the advantage in this that he'd know the NW history and has learned a lot from the wildlings themselves. But again, he would've had to have contact with the Children in order to know such a thing. There is no reference that I know of that states he has. Or at the very least contact with Coldhands, who is the one that calls BR the last greenseer, IIRC.
It is an interesting idea though.
Thank you, do you think the song "I am the last of the giants" could be a reference to the wildlings themselves?
Thank you, do you think the song "I am the last of the giants" could be a reference to the wildlings themselves?
You mean in the metaphorical sense? Yeah I could see that. Do you think it could and how so?
Yes in a metaphorical sense. The wildlings were cut off from most of Westeros by The Wall, it could be possible that there are fewer wildlings left due to the White Walkers and wights. Plus they are singing this a few chapters before they scale the wall. If the wildlings had won and went through and passed the wall their identity could change because they aren't as cut off from the "kneelers" as they were before.
Not sure what to make of this really, but Brienne is always called "Brienne of Tarth". But realistically her name should be Brienne Tarth, as she is Brienne of House Tarth. Brienne Tarth sounds fucking horrible, lets be honest (Selwyn Tarth, her father, sounds quite majestic though IMO) but that's not really an excuse to never call her by her house name.
But Brienne of Tarth actually sounds like a peasant name. Because Tarth is both a noble house and the name of an island. If you take Brienne of Tarth as is, it's actually how a non-noble describes themselves (Ser Bronn of the Blackwater for instance). You say your name and where you're from/a location as qualifier. Which seems weird for Brienne given that she is a noble and has a house.
But then again, GRRM said that in a AFFC we would get a POV of a descendant of Ser Duncan the Tall, and then we got Brienne who tells us that a shield with Dunk's sigil can be found in her House's armoury which seems to imply that she was that descendant. Given that Dunk was not a noble, and must have sworn himself to celibacy in 233 given that that's when he joined the KG as Aegon was crowned that year, it seems likely that any descendant of his wouldn't have been a noble.
But Selwyn Tarth did raise Brienne and as far as we can tell she seems to have been his daughter. But the "Brienne of Tarth" instead of Brienne Tarth is rather weird IMO
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Not sure what to make of this really, but Brienne is always called "Brienne of Tarth". But realistically her name should be Brienne Tarth, as she is Brienne of House Tarth. Brienne Tarth sounds fucking horrible, lets be honest (Selwyn Tarth, her father, sounds quite majestic though IMO) but that's not really an excuse to never call her by her house name.
But Brienne of Tarth actually sounds like a peasant name. Because Tarth is both a noble house and the name of an island. If you take Brienne of Tarth as is, it's actually how a non-noble describes themselves (Ser Bronn of the Blackwater for instance). You say your name and where you're from/a location as qualifier. Which seems weird for Brienne given that she is a noble and has a house.
But then again, GRRM said that in a AFFC we would get a POV of a descendant of Ser Duncan the Tall, and then we got Brienne who tells us that a shield with Dunk's sigil can be found in her House's armoury which seems to imply that she was that descendant. Given that Dunk was not a noble, and must have sworn himself to celibacy in 233 given that that's when he joined the KG as Aegon was crowned that year, it seems likely that any descendant of his wouldn't have been a noble.
But Selwyn Tarth did raise Brienne and as far as we can tell she seems to have been his daughter. But the "Brienne of Tarth" instead of Brienne Tarth is rather weird IMO
Stop for a moment and reconsider what the French spelling of Joan of Arc is:
Jeanne d'Arc
Which is why, even though the backstory of Brienne didn't really match up I took the nod to French history where I could.
I just noticed that when Dany enters the HotU, the door is oval shaped and looks like a FACE. Huh? What? Where did that come from? Just like the weirwood gate at the Nightfort...
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I seem to recall a discussion we had about whether Ned went to the Wall. I was just reading Jon I in Storm, and Mance I think contradicts himself, not sure if it's a mistake.
When he tells Jon about the two times he's seen him, he says the first time was as a crow, when Jon and Robb were playing with snow at WF, when the LC at the time visit Ned in WF with some of the NW. Second time was when Robert came to feast. Mance says Benjen wouldn't recognize him by sight, but why not? Mance and Benjen would've both been in the NW together when Jon and Robb were kids. I thought Benjen joined right after the rebellion.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Post by whitewolfstark on Aug 12, 2015 0:13:35 GMT
Unless Mance had been sent to Shadow Tower or Eastwatch at the time.
And the time difference between when Benjen joined the Nightswatch and the Rebellion ended is unclear. If Benjen were still a minor at the end of the war (not hard to imagine, given in late 281 he's described as still being a "pup" and he's close enough in age to Lyanna to be confused by Bran to have a similar age difference that Arya and Bran have--which is a year--so it's not hard to imagine that a few years went by before Benjen went to Castle Black, during which time Mance could have been elsewhere--perhaps he was specifically called by Qorgyle to come to Winterfell due to his wildling blood, but was based out of Shadow Tower or Eastwatch normally.
Quite frankly we don't have enough to speculate on.
Well if Jon and Robb were old enough to make snow traps, I imagine Ben would've been gone by then, but yes, the timeline isn't expressly mentioned that I know- except that if Ben was still at WF, he'd have met Mance on this visit, too.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones