R+L=J

Ned did know of Robert's bastard, but that was before Robert was king. Ned seemed to hold on to a notion that Robert could change (his conversation with Lyanna RE their betrothal).

(An aside: Robert's infidelity could have had an indirect influence over the Rebellion: if Lyanna went willingly with another man, then Robert's infidelity had a hand in that. Perhaps Ned didn't think of it much after the Rebellion because it made him feel guilt or shame?)





But he's obviously prophecy driven. We have his "it appears I must be a warrior" moment, and his "the dragon must have three heads" moment. I think that everything he did was driven in that way. The problem is, we have no idea what it was that he actually read...

Yep this is the think about Bael the Bard story that get's ovelooked.It isn't a mutual love story and Bael's intent was to "shame"Lord Stark by soiling his daughter and to go back to something i said previously.At its core the rose was to replace something the daugter no longer had.........Her virginity.

Bingo!!!! Except in the Bael story it "isn't" a mutual love , she grew to love him yes,but as Ygritte said "all" women loved Bael in the stories it says nothing about him loving them back.

A wounded animal can also be a "maiden's fancy". Yes, there's no doubt that his wounded melancholy was part of his attraction, but Cersei also remembers him as being extremely good looking, and she was "giddy with excitement" at the thought of him. She's also attracted to Aurane Waters, despite thinking of him as a watered-down Rhaegar who isn't half as comely. The only other person we hear from who gives us any sense of Rhaegar's sexual attractiveness is Jon Connington, who also had the hots for him.

As far as I can see, the only evidence there is for Rhaegar not being hot property is the Baelor the Blessed born again thing, which only applied to him as a child, and wasn't a comparison people continued to make.


I'm still not clear on how the thoughts of Jon Arryn's death could lead to thinking of Rhaegar specifically in the context of being someone who it seemed unlikely would frequent brothels, but I look forwards to seeing how you handle it in your essay.


Viserys isn't the only source for Dany's birth, it's common knowledge. Maybe you can find a reason to believe that Dany isn't the daughter of Queen Rhaella, born during a storm that destroyed the Targ fleet and stolen away with Viserys by Darry before Stannis turned up or the Dragonstone garrison was able to betray them. However that birth is well attested.

Well said -- and we can take it a step further. All women loved Bael in the stories, but did they in reality?

I think we need to be really cautious with anything we receive in the form of a singer's truth. It's a better story for a singer if there's love involved, but reality is often darker than song.

I still need to read part three-onward but I'm keeping up with the convo and wanted to mention this:



If "multiple sources" and "common knowledge" of "well attested" events are sufficient evidence of parentage, then surely Jon is Ned's son.

Specifically,why Jon Arryn died and LF's sacrcastic remark about it.That was the trigger because it touched on a truth that otherwise would be nothing,but depending on the situation a thing that should be nothing would be something.Sadly,i will not be covering the brothel chapter in my essay (1) It's not needed for me to prove Robert is Jon's father,though there's a bit in there that would bolster my claim and (2) I want to watch the length.I could put it in and take out my "Ghost grassing" bit but i really don't want to.

Common knowledge doesn't make it correct though.Its common knowledge Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna,its common knowledge that Wildlings are nothing but rapers,savages who drink blood from skulls.There is a lot of descrepancies around Dany's birth and unless GRRM has a terrible editor i like to think they are there for a reason.The only source for Dany's birth is Viserys ,whatever he told her is what she knew.This is what we get from Dany's own mouth and we should question it because what Viserys told her doesn't add up to other sources and just plain logic.
You know the dilly!

And this is one of my major problems with the Lyanna and Rhaegar explanation.For a notion to have so many people in verse thinking that Rhaegar chose Lyanna there is not one who can tell us anything about them as a couple. Based on Selmy's statement:

"Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief. Her love for Daario is poison. A slower poison than the locusts, but in the end as deadly."

And

"When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one."

The idea that Rhaegar loved Lyanna was "common" knowledge as well it's on the Wall of Westerosi fantasy.Yet there is no evidence,not one that indicates Rhaegar loved Lyanna or even knew her intimately.We know a Bard's truth is not the same as the truth.For something that's so known,there should be a trail and there's none at all.Instead we get people filling in the blanks with what they think and alas we the readers have done the same without critically thinking of it.

There's a lot of guessing about where Rhaegar was when he was said to be "in the south" and for some crazy reason people want to put him at a tower fracking while the world went to shreds.But could it be possible that he was on anti-rebellion buisness?

“Your brother Rhaegar brought as many men to the Trident,” Ser Jorah admitted, “but of that number, no more than a tenth were knights. The rest were archers, freeriders,and foot soldiers armed with spears and pikes. When Rhaegar fell, many threw down their weapons and fled the field. How long do you imagine such a rabble would stand
against the charge of forty thousand screamers howling for blood? How well would boiled leather jerkins and mailed shirts protect them when the arrows fall like rain?”

Look at the make-up of men who Rhaegar brought to the Trident and then tell me what Rhaegar was doing in the South.

Lastly, and i stated this before as a very big problem for Rhaegar/Lyanna and GRRM touched on this by echoing a similar situation with Sansa.


"I had not forgotten, though I’d hoped you had. “And when do you imagine Sansa will be at her
most fertile?” Tyrion asked his father in tones that dripped acid. “Before or after I tell her how
we murdered her mother and her brother?”

After Lyanna found out Rhaegar's dad killed her bro and pa there's no way in hell he's geting in those panties unless he raped her.