Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 27, 2015 6:19:55 GMT
Concise though? It's a monster!
Nah it wasn't that much of a beast which i don't mind by the way.As long as i can follow it.
I think it's tough to argue that "bed of blood" does not mean a birthing bed. GRRM uses the phrase twice more, and both times immediately follows it with a clarification that he's talking about a birthing bed. It's absolutely typical of the way GRRM reveals things.
On the other hand, that doesn't mean it can't indicate something more. In my Puppets essay, I've shown there's a strong element of blood sacrifice that can be linked to the ToJ scene, and that raises some interesting possibilities. However we do know that Lyanna was dying of a fever, and Drogo, who takes the Lyanna role in MMD's tent, was also dying of a fever.
I think it's tough to argue that "bed of blood" does not mean a birthing bed. GRRM uses the phrase twice more, and both times immediately follows it with a clarification that he's talking about a birthing bed. It's absolutely typical of the way GRRM reveals things.
On the other hand, that doesn't mean it can't indicate something more. In my Puppets essay, I've shown there's a strong element of blood sacrifice that can be linked to the ToJ scene, and that raises some interesting possibilities. However we do know that Lyanna was dying of a fever, and Drogo, who takes the Lyanna role in MMD's tent, was also dying of a fever.
Actually,i'm not denying that it means "birthing bed" i'm only saying i don't think its limited to it.I think with or without it you've made an exccellent case for Lyanna being Jon's mommy.
You may be surprised to know that I totally agree that the case for Lyanna is quite a bit stronger than the case for Rhaegar. Lyanna I think is pretty much a cert, hence my comment that it would be "jumping the Stark" if GRRM goes a different direction. Rhaegar isn't so solid. There is space for him to be the ringmaster, guiding events rather than participating directly. I do think Rhaegar's by a fair margin the most likely possibility, but the evidence for him as father simply isn't as clear as the evidence for Lyanna as mother.
I'm looking forwards to your Robert essay, particularly how you reconcile the timeline.
Yeah this has been the problem for me in that he's not as strong as even i had thought.
This comparison often gets brought up as an argument against Rhaegar. If Rhaegar was Baelor the Blessed, then no woman wants him. Right. Except that you've ended the ASoS quote a sentence to early. "...his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him." When he was younger, Rhaegar seemed like Baelor the Blessed born again, who no woman would want in her bed. However, something changed him, and he stopped being like Baelor the Blessed. He took up arms, quite the opposite of Baelor. We also know very well that "no woman wants Rhaegar in her bed" is false. Cersei at the very least certainly did -- and we know that Cersei seems to have had the idea that Lyanna was something of a love rival.
That Lyanna/Cersei connection is something I should probably have covered a little more in the essay, I might think about adding that.
There are two separate questions here. I wanted to avoid coming down on either side of the debate when it comes to Rhaegar and Lyanna falling in love, but that's a different thing than what people in Westeros believed. I think it's pretty clear that the singer's version of the story, the version that Dany has, the version that most people assume to be true, has them falling in love. Robert certainly rejects that view. Ned seems quite circumspect about discussing it.
As I pointed out, Rhaegar and Lyanna could have had a child whether or not they were in love with each other. I tried to avoid this particular line of questioning because I agree that it is questionable, but it doesn't really have a direct bearing on whether or not Rhaegar is Jon's son.
You have a point that the missing father in that context can be supplied by any of the people Ned's considering. I favour Rhaegar in this case, because he's the only person in that list who has no other good reason to be in Ned's thoughts. Ned is already thinking about Robert, because he's visiting Robert's bastard. If Rhaegar doesn't find his way into Ned's thoughts because he's that missing element, then why does he find his way into Ned's thoughts? We are told that Ned thinks of Rhaegar for the first time in years, which means that whatever has triggered his memory of Rhaegar must be something that he is exposed to here, rather than some ongoing thing. I've yet to hear an alternative explanation for what this could be.
I think there's a big problem for you to deal with in this chapter, in that what Ned thinks about when presented with one of Robert's bastards is how Lyanna didn't like that aspect of Robert's behaviour. Ned's memory of Rhaegar contrasts him to Robert in that context. So Ned thinks of Lyanna rejecting Robert for being a serial adulterer, then thinks of Rhaegar as someone who's unlike Robert in that respect. It seems quite a jump to go from that to Robert being the one who ended up with Lyanna rather than Rhaegar.
At the point in which Ned is recalling Lyanna's words Robert was certainly an adulterer.I only have to proove that during Robert's bethrothal to Lyanna and on account of him loving her he changed and i have prooven that.Plus in this story one can have sex without love.Though i do thik Lyanna did grow to love Robert.
I don't think GRRM was really giving anything away that can't be deduced from the books unless Dany's birthdate is wrong. We can argue the particulars of dates -- I'm quite open to the idea that Jon was in fact slightly older than Rob, for example -- but everything points to Jon being born at roughly that time, give or take a month or so. Given the 8-9 months comment, to move one birthdate, we'd have to move the other too, and that makes it doubly problematic.
I think there are just too many witnesses for Dany's birth for it to be a major question. It would take a major conspiracy of silence to get around that. Someone tells. Someone always tells.
Yet it could be rape. People don't want to believe that possibility, but this is GRRM we're talking about. I'd hardly see it as foreign to GRRM's style to give us this romantic story for Jon's birth and have the reality far darker. Alternatively, Lyanna might simply not have been given that news.
I suspect if it was provable, it would have been proven already and these debates wouldn't exist. I do think the case for Rhaegar is far closer to proven than any of the alternatives are, though. That said, there are more essays to come and I look forward to seeing if anyone can close that gap. How's your Robert essay coming along?
1.The crowning- Which i don't think is an inverse omniscient parallel or even an outer verse parallel but an inverse intentional act.
2. The kidnapping/abduction- which may of had nothing to do with Rhaegar.He was just the scapegoat in this i fear.But you are right we have a few more essays to go and we will see how it all goes.
Again thank you for doing this i really appreciate the time you took to do this.