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Agreed that the girls are doing something they shouldn't--both Sansa and Arya--but their mistake is exploited.

No one's hands are clean, SW. And I admire your defense of the wolf maidens. But Sansa fucked Ned. Not literally, thank the gods, but yup, she left Ned with a choice between life on the Wall - and death.

I'm a known Arya-sympathizer as well, but even I have to face the music and admit she took things far farther than they needed to be brought when crossing swords with the prince on the Trident.

Do we all remember Nymeria helping Arya pack? Bringing articles of clothing for the trunk?

There is NO WAY Nymeria would have attacked Joffrey without Arya's permission, intent, and bloodlust. Arya wanted to defeat the prince, to bloody him, and humiliate him.

I don't take this so far as to say the same was true for Lyanna in regards to Rhaegar, but that possibility cannot be discounted. He died on his knees in the Trident, and with his last breath uttered a woman's name.

Might be that woman was his Mercy, or his curse. When it comes to such moments, there might not be a difference.

Bael fully intended to make the Stark in Winterfell pay for the insult. That was the whole point. The maid is barely mentioned. Her love for Bael disclaimed by Ygritte--the story teller and descendant of Bael. The love is the only thing she disclaims.

Ah but that's just it... Who could have possibly told this story after it happened? If it ever did happen... Bael is one, yes. But, the Blue Rose is another. Ygritte at this very moment is manipulating a man in the hopes that he will love her, after stealing her - in spite of the fact that she knows her Folk will not take kindly to his intrusion.

Like Bael, she leads him into tunnels where a hot pool bears witness.

It is interesting that the Love is the only thing Ygritte disclaims. But again, she attributes this to Bael's bravado and the woman's choice, rather than being the other way around, as "all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote." I am used to strong women in my life, and so I tend to look for them elsewhere, I suppose. But I cannot get away from the idea that Stark women are incredibly strong. She-wolves of Winterfell.

So, Arya may have been doing something she "shouldn't"--but it was innocent. And even noble. And then exploits by a Mad Queen who killed the wrong wolf--because the death suited her purposes.

True. Mad Queen, wrong wolf. And, yes, it was innocent...until this moment:

Then a grey blur flashed past her, and suddenly Nymeria was there, leaping, jaws closing around Joffrey's sword arm. The steel fell from his fingers as the wolf knocked him off his feet, and they rolled in the grass, the wolf snarling and ripping at him, the prince shrieking in pain. "Get it off," he screamed. "Get it off!"

Arya's voice cracked like a whip. "Nymeria!"

The direwolf let go of Joffrey and moved to Arya's side. The prince lay in the grass, whimpering, cradling his mangled arm. His shirt was soaked in blood. Arya said, "She didn't hurt you . . . much." She picked up Lion's Tooth where it had fallen, and stood over him, holding the sword with both hands.

Perhaps innocence and guilt are the wrong way to look at a wolf. None of their paws are clean. Ned is the one that ended Lady's life, after all, and Sansa repaid her father in-kind. Wolves will be wolves, after all, and direwolves are even more formidable.

Perhaps it is better to simply say wolves will hunt. It is their nature, dearest Ned. And their hunger only seems to grow when winter is coming.

Sansa may have betrayed Ned, but Cersei was well wise to Ned before that. Sansa's less noble here, no question. But a child making stupid choice. Which is exploited by a deceiver. And now she's stuck in King's Landing.

Wise to Ned, but Cersei did not know they were leaving that night. Sansa is half a child at this point (a child-woman?), but make no mistake, she knew full well what she was doing. She even knew that going to Robert would not be as effective. She needed the Queen's power to cast down her father. She-wolves know where strength and weakness lie. It was Sansa who exploited Cersei in this instance, as Sansa wanted to be stuck in KL.

Then she got her wish, or so she thought, and became a chained-winged-wolf.

And Sansa gets it again with Bael-ish. Used by Bael-ish. Framed for regicide. Thus, she "willingly" hides with Bael-ish--because the other option is losing her head.

Agreed. One could say Sansa's wolf-bloodedness landed her in this predicament. Is she an abductee?

Or, (like her husband...) was she taken to the Vale against her will, only to win swords to her cause and turn the tables on her abductor.

Also, I think a distinction needs to be drawn regarding Sansa. Sansa pre-snowflake communion is a rather silly little bird, and ends up a chained-winged-wolf due to her own actions.

After the snowflake communion, it seems she realizes all at once the frivolity of courtly ways, and she sees instead where her strength lies -- inside the Wall(s) of Falling Winter.

Bottom line: I agree that the Stark maids in the current text contribute to their situation. But their mistakes are exploited by others--often with Bael-like tendencies.

Agreed. But, the exploitation is rather mutual in every case. These women are not dogs to beg for lemoncakes and slink off at a kick.

A winter rose will rip a man's off his shoulders as easily as a dog will kill a rat. Just as Mance had a love for feisty Free Folk women, mayhaps Bael had a love for she-wolves.

Seems like the same might have happened to Lyanna.

Agreed. But as I've outlined before, I think people underestimate Lyanna. Arya and Sansa are both proof that to do so is a gross error.

I think Lyanna used the rumors of her day to her advantage... and disappeared.

Arya and Sansa both do the same.

The exploitation, again, is completely mutual. In fact, I think it might be impossible to exploit a she-wolf. At least, I think it is impossible to exploit a she-wolf without consequence.

Rhaegar paid as heavily for that crown of love and beauty, if not moreso, than anyone - including Lyanna. Lyanna's siblings did not find themselves being sold to Dothraki.

And

on the Bael discussion. And I agree--it's really hard to see Bael as a love story if you look at the whole thing. Much more about deceit and ultimate kinslaying tragedy.

Agreed. If we take yet another step back from it, we see that Bael's is a story of a King beyond the Wall who laid with a blue corpse (crypts) queen of winter... ensnared House Stark with lies... and was later cast down by the Stark in Winterfell, because he could not fight him... as he was was his own son.

Methinks Jon is heading towards a similar family reunion.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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R+L=J Jan 12, 2016 3:07:31 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jan 12, 2016 3:07:31 GMT

Agreed that the girls are doing something they shouldn't--both Sansa and Arya--but their mistake is exploited.

No one's hands are clean, SW. And I admire your defense of the wolf maidens. But Sansa fucked Ned. Not literally, thank the gods, but yup, she left Ned with a choice between life on the Wall - and death.

I'm a known Arya-sympathizer as well, but even I have to face the music and admit she took things far farther than they needed to be brought when crossing swords with the prince on the Trident.

Do we all remember Nymeria helping Arya pack? Bringing articles of clothing for the trunk?

There is NO WAY Nymeria would have attacked Joffrey without Arya's permission, intent, and bloodlust. Arya wanted to defeat the prince, to bloody him, and humiliate him.

I don't take this so far as to say the same was true for Lyanna in regards to Rhaegar, but that possibility cannot be discounted. He died on his knees in the Trident, and with his last breath uttered a woman's name.

Might be that woman was his Mercy, or his curse. When it comes to such moments, there might not be a difference.

Bael fully intended to make the Stark in Winterfell pay for the insult. That was the whole point. The maid is barely mentioned. Her love for Bael disclaimed by Ygritte--the story teller and descendant of Bael. The love is the only thing she disclaims.

Ah but that's just it... Who could have possibly told this story after it happened? If it ever did happen... Bael is one, yes. But, the Blue Rose is another. Ygritte at this very moment is manipulating a man in the hopes that he will love her, after stealing her - in spite of the fact that she knows her Folk will not take kindly to his intrusion.

Like Bael, she leads him into tunnels where a hot pool bears witness.

It is interesting that the Love is the only thing Ygritte disclaims. But again, she attributes this to Bael's bravado and the woman's choice, rather than being the other way around, as "all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote." I am used to strong women in my life, and so I tend to look for them elsewhere, I suppose. But I cannot get away from the idea that Stark women are incredibly strong. She-wolves of Winterfell.

So, Arya may have been doing something she "shouldn't"--but it was innocent. And even noble. And then exploits by a Mad Queen who killed the wrong wolf--because the death suited her purposes.

True. Mad Queen, wrong wolf. And, yes, it was innocent...until this moment:

Then a grey blur flashed past her, and suddenly Nymeria was there, leaping, jaws closing around Joffrey's sword arm. The steel fell from his fingers as the wolf knocked him off his feet, and they rolled in the grass, the wolf snarling and ripping at him, the prince shrieking in pain. "Get it off," he screamed. "Get it off!"

Arya's voice cracked like a whip. "Nymeria!"

The direwolf let go of Joffrey and moved to Arya's side. The prince lay in the grass, whimpering, cradling his mangled arm. His shirt was soaked in blood. Arya said, "She didn't hurt you . . . much." She picked up Lion's Tooth where it had fallen, and stood over him, holding the sword with both hands.

Perhaps innocence and guilt are the wrong way to look at a wolf. None of their paws are clean. Ned is the one that ended Lady's life, after all, and Sansa repaid her father in-kind. Wolves will be wolves, after all, and direwolves are even more formidable.

Perhaps it is better to simply say wolves will hunt. It is their nature, dearest Ned. And their hunger only seems to grow when winter is coming.

Sansa may have betrayed Ned, but Cersei was well wise to Ned before that. Sansa's less noble here, no question. But a child making stupid choice. Which is exploited by a deceiver. And now she's stuck in King's Landing.

Wise to Ned, but Cersei did not know they were leaving that night. Sansa is half a child at this point (a child-woman?), but make no mistake, she knew full well what she was doing. She even knew that going to Robert would not be as effective. She needed the Queen's power to cast down her father. She-wolves know where strength and weakness lie. It was Sansa who exploited Cersei in this instance, as Sansa wanted to be stuck in KL.

Then she got her wish, or so she thought, and became a chained-winged-wolf.

And Sansa gets it again with Bael-ish. Used by Bael-ish. Framed for regicide. Thus, she "willingly" hides with Bael-ish--because the other option is losing her head.

Agreed. One could say Sansa's wolf-bloodedness landed her in this predicament. Is she an abductee?

Or, (like her husband...) was she taken to the Vale against her will, only to win swords to her cause and turn the tables on her abductor.

Also, I think a distinction needs to be drawn regarding Sansa. Sansa pre-snowflake communion is a rather silly little bird, and ends up a chained-winged-wolf due to her own actions.

After the snowflake communion, it seems she realizes all at once the frivolity of courtly ways, and she sees instead where her strength lies -- inside the Wall(s) of Falling Winter.

Bottom line: I agree that the Stark maids in the current text contribute to their situation. But their mistakes are exploited by others--often with Bael-like tendencies.

Agreed. But, the exploitation is rather mutual in every case. These women are not dogs to beg for lemoncakes and slink off at a kick.

A winter rose will rip a man's off his shoulders as easily as a dog will kill a rat. Just as Mance had a love for feisty Free Folk women, mayhaps Bael had a love for she-wolves.

Seems like the same might have happened to Lyanna.

Agreed. But as I've outlined before, I think people underestimate Lyanna. Arya and Sansa are both proof that to do so is a gross error.

I think Lyanna used the rumors of her day to her advantage... and disappeared.

Arya and Sansa both do the same.

The exploitation, again, is completely mutual. In fact, I think it might be impossible to exploit a she-wolf. At least, I think it is impossible to exploit a she-wolf without consequence.

Rhaegar paid as heavily for that crown of love and beauty, if not moreso, than anyone - including Lyanna. Lyanna's siblings did not find themselves being sold to Dothraki.

And

on the Bael discussion. And I agree--it's really hard to see Bael as a love story if you look at the whole thing. Much more about deceit and ultimate kinslaying tragedy.

Agreed. If we take yet another step back from it, we see that Bael's is a story of a King beyond the Wall who laid with a blue corpse (crypts) queen of winter... ensnared House Stark with lies... and was later cast down by the Stark in Winterfell, because he could not fight him... as he was was his own son.

Methinks Jon is heading towards a similar family reunion.

I agree with you 100% in the conceptual idea my thoughts on Lyanna are along the same lines but slightly different.Ok so here's mythinking in a nutshell.If we look at the totality of RR there's a clear disconnect between what they knew and when they knew it with regard to Lyanna's disappearance.Let's take these info throw them on the grown and see what picture begins to form.

We start with comments Ned and Robert made and thoughts Ned had.
1. AGOT Ned tells Robert that they rose against the Targs to stop the murder of children
2.In another text he says they "set out to win a crown"
3.When Ned was remembering the murder of Rhaegar's kids his internal monologue said he set off in a cold rage to fight the rest of the wars in the south.

Note none of these things had anything to do with Lyanna.

Next we look at the info from Cat.
1.Cat says Brandon set off to KL when he "heard about Lyanna."
2. Jamie says Brandon rode into the Red Keep and demanded that Rhaegar come out and die.

We don't know what Brandon actually heard that is left out,we assumed it was that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna but strangly Brandon doesn't mention his sister at all( I think what he heard was that she was preggers and he assumed based on events at Harrenhall and Rhaegar's Blue rose renactment that he did it).

So the question becomes was Lyanna actually missing or was this the story told after RR to give a noble meaning to it.

We then have the curious cas of Lyanna's death in an environment that doesn't support roses ( wild or otherwise) and Ned's statement of him always bringing her roses when he can.

Conclusion Lyanna was hidden and someone in her family (Ned) knew and aided her but kept that fact hidden from everyone else.

"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"

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R+L=J Jan 12, 2016 6:57:54 GMT voice likes this

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Post by SlyWren on Jan 12, 2016 6:57:54 GMT

No one's hands are clean, SW. And I admire your defense of the wolf maidens. But Sansa fucked Ned. Not literally, thank the gods, but yup, she left Ned with a choice between life on the Wall - and death.

Agreed--but no way is Sansa as responsible as Cersei. And I can't see how Cersei wasn't likely to have made the same moves even without Sansa. No one's hands are clean--but the mistake/sin of the Wolf Maid got used and amplified by the Mad Queen.

I'm a known Arya-sympathizer as well, but even I have to face the music and admit she took things far farther than they needed to be brought when crossing swords with the prince on the Trident.

Do we all remember Nymeria helping Arya pack? Bringing articles of clothing for the trunk?

There is NO WAY Nymeria would have attacked Joffrey without Arya's permission, intent, and bloodlust. Arya wanted to defeat the prince, to bloody him, and humiliate him.

True--though I still hold there's a difference between "angry impetuous child defending her friend" and "plotting Mad Queen who kills a wolf to stick it to Ned and Robert."

I don't take this so far as to say the same was true for Lyanna in regards to Rhaegar, but that possibility cannot be discounted. He died on his knees in the Trident, and with his last breath uttered a woman's name.

Might be that woman was his Mercy, or his curse. When it comes to such moments, there might not be a difference.

Possible--we see it with Arys Oakheart.

Still, if there's treachery, seems like it's coming from Aerys and the political plotters. Granted, we don't know enough about Lyanna to know whether she was a plotter. But her echoes really seem like they were not effective plotters until after they got "stolen" and hunted.

Ah but that's just it... Who could have possibly told this story after it happened? If it ever did happen... Bael is one, yes. But, the Blue Rose is another. Ygritte at this very moment is manipulating a man in the hopes that he will love her, after stealing her - in spite of the fact that she knows her Folk will not take kindly to his intrusion.

Like Bael, she leads him into tunnels where a hot pool bears witness.

It is interesting that the Love is the only thing Ygritte disclaims. But again, she attributes this to Bael's bravado and the woman's choice, rather than being the other way around, as "all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote." I am used to strong women in my life, and so I tend to look for them elsewhere, I suppose. But I cannot get away from the idea that Stark women are incredibly strong. She-wolves of Winterfell.

Agree on the strength. But one can be strong and NOT love the guy who stole you--Arya is. And Sansa's learning to be. Even Wonder Woman occasionally got herself in a bind. And Stark maids are tough. But no magic lassos so far.

Telling the tale--Ygritte says flat out Bael made the song. And it's told form his perspective--through Ygritte's lens. Then disclaimed by the female teller of the Male Bael's Tale (okay, that's just too silly).

Ygritte's a temptress, no doubt. But that's arguably another reason to listen to her one big disclaimer: if she's a seductress, but paints Bael as the steeler and the maid as not certain to love Bael, shouldn't we listen to the not-shy Ygritte?

Perhaps innocence and guilt are the wrong way to look at a wolf. None of their paws are clean. Ned is the one that ended Lady's life, after all, and Sansa repaid her father in-kind. Wolves will be wolves, after all, and direwolves are even more formidable.

Perhaps it is better to simply say wolves will hunt. It is their nature, dearest Ned. And their hunger only seems to grow when winter is coming.

So, not innocence or guilt, but instead "instinct" vs. "malicious plotting?"

Wise to Ned, but Cersei did not know they were leaving that night. Sansa is half a child at this point (a child-woman?), but make no mistake, she knew full well what she was doing. She even knew that going to Robert would not be as effective. She needed the Queen's power to cast down her father. She-wolves know where strength and weakness lie. It was Sansa who exploited Cersei in this instance, as Sansa wanted to be stuck in KL.

Then she got her wish, or so she thought, and became a chained-winged-wolf.

Agreed--except with Sansa exploiting Cersei. Sansa intended to get the queen to "help her," no doubt. But she did not know Cersei's motives. Or how far Cersei would go. She'd completely misread Joff. And she was NO match for them.

Almost like Cat, snatching Tyrion, and then ending up way over her head, attacked by clansmen, dealing with a crazy sister, and overcome by a weird trial. Sansa's dealing with someone far more sinister than Tyrion. And almost as crazy as Lysa. Sansa SHOULD have known better. She did know better and was in weird denial. But Cersei used her--no doubt.

Agreed. One could say Sansa's wolf-bloodedness landed her in this predicament. Is she an abductee?

Or, (like her husband...) was she taken to the Vale against her will, only to win swords to her cause and turn the tables on her abductor.

Also, I think a distinction needs to be drawn regarding Sansa. Sansa pre-snowflake communion is a rather silly little bird, and ends up a chained-winged-wolf due to her own actions.

After the snowflake communion, it seems she realizes all at once the frivolity of courtly ways, and she sees instead where her strength lies -- inside the Wall(s) of Falling Winter.

Agreed--though I think it starts a bit sooner--when she starts rejecting the false knights. And sees the castles in the air at dawn--she's starting to wake up. After the snowflake communion, thought--I agree. It's a different Sansa. Back to her roots. And I think if the Hound showed up THEN, she'd be more likely to go with him.

Agreed. But, the exploitation is rather mutual in every case. These women are not dogs to beg for lemoncakes and slink off at a kick.

A winter rose will rip a man's off his shoulders as easily as a dog will kill a rat. Just as Mance had a love for feisty Free Folk women, mayhaps Bael had a love for she-wolves.

I don't disagree--except on severity. They aren't begging, but Sansa and Arya are still kids. And Lyanna--Ned calls her a child-woman. I think there's a reason for that.

On Bael--if the story said anything about the maid before he took her, I'd be with you. But. . . he's sticking it to Brandon the Daughterless. The daughter's a means to an end (bad pun).

Agreed. But as I've outlined before, I think people underestimate Lyanna. Arya and Sansa are both proof that to do so is a gross error.

I think Lyanna used the rumors of her day to her advantage... and disappeared.

Arya and Sansa both do the same.

The exploitation, again, is completely mutual. In fact, I think it might be impossible to exploit a she-wolf. At least, I think it is impossible to exploit a she-wolf without consequence.

Rhaegar paid as heavily for that crown of love and beauty, if not moreso, than anyone - including Lyanna. Lyanna's siblings did not find themselves being sold to Dothraki.

Agreed.

Agreed. If we take yet another step back from it, we see that Bael's is a story of a King beyond the Wall who laid with a blue corpse (crypts) queen of winter... ensnared House Stark with lies... and was later cast down by the Stark in Winterfell, because he could not fight him... as he was was his own son.

Methinks Jon is heading towards a similar family reunion.

Nice.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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R+L=J May 20, 2016 19:31:56 GMT

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Post by voice on May 20, 2016 19:31:56 GMT

I'm still getting through the appendices and segments, but I must say kingmonkey, you've done a really good job on this essay. Saw you online so wanted to let you know.

I'll be responding with some specific observations once I'm through with it all.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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R+L=J May 26, 2016 18:05:26 GMT shizett likes this

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Post by voice on May 26, 2016 18:05:26 GMT

First of all, I must say that reading this again has made me appreciate RLJ in a new way. I really like the chronological, narrative-building approach kingmonkey . Excellent essay.

Aug 25, 2015 14:39:05 GMT kingmonkey said:

Ned's memory is triggered by the thought of the Lannisters, and potentially Robert, as a threat to Stark and Targaryen children. He is reminded of the Lannisters killing Rhaegar's son, and how Robert had “turned away”, just as he turned away from the killing of Sansa's pup. So if Lyanna, like Sansa, was pleading with Ned to save her "pup", was that a Stark or a Targaryen child? Or indeed both?

Possible. But Sansa's pup was of course a pup, and she pleaded for its life in spite of it having no kinship with the king. I am of the mind a stag killed the mother wolf. Does that mean Robert killed Lyanna?

I can see how in a certain sense, that might be true. Lyanna may have run away from her betrothal to Robert. What disturbs me, is that the direwolf was impaled in her bed of blood and gore. And Ned served as King's Justice when killing Lady. I think he did the same for Lyanna.

One area in which I tend to fuss with RLJ is that people tend to attribute the strength of the Lyanna clues to Rhaegar by default. Once Lyanna is a mother-candidate, Rhaegar is an easy pick for the father. Very easy. But that ease is largely due to the strength Lyanna has as a candidate. The logistics of Lyanna+Rhaegar are far less strong than the logistics of Lyanna having a child.

You've approached this essay in a very clear way, and have addressed the fundamentals very fairly. My only area of argument is the one above. You've done an amazing job outlining why we should view Lyanna as Jon's mother. I can only agree with it. But the evidence to suggest Rhaegar is far less substantial, imo.

1. Ned doesn't have Rhaegar on the brain.
2. Ned suddenly thinks of Rhaegar in the context of his brothel visit.
3. Ned does not associate Rhaegar with brothels.

1. Agree
2. Does he?
3. Agree

It seems to me Ned thinks of Rhaegar in the context of Jon Arryn. Like Jon Arryn, Rhaegar was not a frequenter of brothels. Jon Arryn frequented Robert's bastards, but he did not frequent the beds of child-women.

Robert was a different sort of beast. Ned has just stared into the face of a young mother and remembered Lyanna's, Jon's and his own. Solid evidence.

But rather than think of Rhaegar in that context, Ned only remembers Rhaegar afterward when considering the reason Jon Arryn might have been killed, thinking it must have been something more than tending to Robert's bastards. (And of course, we learn later that Ned was right, and that Jon Arryn's death had nothing at all to do with Robert's bastards.)

Rather than connect Rhaegar to the type of behavior that leads men to sire bastards, or care for their friend's bastards, Ned separates Rhaegar from both.

What would trigger Ned to think of Rhaegar if he doesn't think of him often and he wouldn't associate him with brothels? Something else must bring Rhaegar to mind, and the other things that Ned has been thinking about are royal bastards, Lyanna, and Jon Snow. Let's put it the other way around. Ned is thinking about Robert's bastard, and the mother, who he has just visited. The promise he made to the mother reminds him of the promise he made to Lyanna. He thinks about Jon (Lyanna's child and the subject of Lyanna's promise). He thinks about Robert, the bastard's father. What's missing? The father of Jon Snow. Who else is mentioned, and directly compared to Robert, as if playing the Robert role in that alternative narrative? Rhaegar.

Actually, no. Ned is no longer thinking about the mother and bastard. He asks Petyr how many other bastards Robert has. Ned then ponders the murder of Jon Arryn, and remarks that it could not merely have been due to providing for Robert's bastards.

That is the context in which Ned remembers Rhaegar. Ned is not thinking about Jon Snow, or even Robert's bastards. He's thinking about why Jon Arryn was killed, and coming to the conclusion that it had nothing to do with bastards and brothels. LF has of course just led Ned into a trap, and the brothel was an entirely pointless visit in terms of solving the mystery of Jon Arryn's death.

LF is wasting Ned's time, and getting Ned into trouble. Ned was not the type of man to frequent brothels. Jon Arryn was not the type of man to frequent brothels. Rhaegar was not the type of man to frequent brothels.

If the brothel is an echo for Lyanna & Child, then Ned has just told us that Rhaegar did not have sex with her.

Ned singled out and removed Rhaegar from the types of lusts that fill men and cause them to sire bastards like Jon Snow.

Just after thinking about Rhaegar, Jaime shows up, and we have a similar part-echo of the other half of the ToJ scene. “Ned's men had drawn their swords, but they were three against twenty" – a familiar turn of phrase. In Ned's very next chapter we have the ToJ dream, with "Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three." The numbers are inverted, but that's not the only inversion. Jaime's men are “phantoms in red cloaks” as Ned's at the tower were wraiths. The inversion is obvious when we consider the reason for Jaime to accost Ned. Jaime has come to demand the return of his sibling, who was abducted on the road near Harrenhal. Ned went to the ToJ to demand the return of his sibling, who was abducted on the road close to Harrenhal.

Indeed, the roles are inverted as well. This places Ned in the role of kingsguard, not rebel. Ned is a defiant captain who's (sworn) "brother" has sired a bastard on a childwoman.

Unless one of the KG had a wife who abducted Lyanna, I don't think that latter element works very well as an echo. Jaime is justly demanding the return of his sibling. Tyrion was innocent.

I have a feeling Ned's cause was not just. I have a feeling Lyanna was far from innocent. And I think Lyanna was not abducted. So I'm seeing more inverses here than echoes.

MMD's tent ritual ends with the miscarried birth of Dany's mutant half-dragon child. Ashford and White Walls both deal with the revealing of a hidden Targaryen, Egg – who's mother has the curiously familiar sounding name Dyanna. Cersei's dream deals with her asking about the children she will have with Rhaegar. The events of the Tower of Joy fit into a pattern. What exactly that pattern is, what it represents, whether it's a literary device or some magical ritual, there's a link to Targaryen children. The sense of some kind of quest or mystery achievement runs through many of the echoes, and that achievement seems to be about the hatching of a dragon – the birth, symbolically or otherwise, of a Targaryen.

At MMD's tent, Dany saw shadows dancing. She “glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.” In Dany's next chapter, she has a dream where all the Targaryens are on fire. Thus the man wreathed in flames is likely a Targaryen, while the great wolf is surely a Stark. Dany's stillborn child was literally half-dragon. I think it's not much of a jump to suggest that at the Tower of Joy, a great wolf (Lyanna) and a man of fire (Rhaegar) danced, and a half-dragon was born.

I follow your train of thought, but you are assuming quite a bit. We have no reason to assume Lyanna was ever at the tower of joy, or even to assume the tower of joy had an interior. And while I couldn't agree more that the MMD ritual, Ashford, and Whitewalls all unveil Targaryens.

The first (Dany's child) was not exactly a secret and Egg's parentage was never a mystery. But what stands out to me is that the Tragedy of MMD's Tent incurred the price of one male Targaryen baby, and the Tragedy of Summerhall incurred many prices that paid for one male Targaryen baby: Rhaego and Rhaegar. Rhaego=Rhaegar?

Is Rhaegar a phoenix? Born from ash, then returning to ash in Dany's womb?

If Dany had burned, instead of him, would Rhaegar have been reborn?

Odd musings, I know. But it nags at me that Dany is far more connected to Rhaegar than is Lyanna or Jon.

Last Edit: May 26, 2016 18:05:54 GMT by voice

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

kingmonkey
Asha Greyjoy

Posts: 179

R+L=J Jun 2, 2016 3:03:00 GMT voice and shizett like this

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Post by kingmonkey on Jun 2, 2016 3:03:00 GMT

First of all, I must say that reading this again has made me appreciate RLJ in a new way. I really like the chronological, narrative-building approach kingmonkey . Excellent essay.

Glad you liked it, and thanks for the thoughtful responses.

I can see how in a certain sense, that might be true. Lyanna may have run away from her betrothal to Robert. What disturbs me, is that the direwolf was impaled in her bed of blood and gore. And Ned served as King's Justice when killing Lady. I think he did the same for Lyanna.

Possibly. There's something funny going on there, though I doubt Ned killed Lyanna -- at least intentionally. Ned was doing the King's work when he killed Lady, but there's no indication that Robert wanted Lyanna killed, and I suspect Ned would baulk at following Robert that far.

One area in which I tend to fuss with RLJ is that people tend to attribute the strength of the Lyanna clues to Rhaegar by default. Once Lyanna is a mother-candidate, Rhaegar is an easy pick for the father. Very easy. But that ease is largely due to the strength Lyanna has as a candidate. The logistics of Lyanna+Rhaegar are far less strong than the logistics of Lyanna having a child.

I agree with the last, and I hope I covered that fairly well in the essay. I think the case for Lyanna is extremely strong. The case for Rhaegar is less so, just IMO the strongest of the cases for the father.

It seems to me Ned thinks of Rhaegar in the context of Jon Arryn. Like Jon Arryn, Rhaegar was not a frequenter of brothels. Jon Arryn frequented Robert's bastards, but he did not frequent the beds of child-women.

The context is Robert's bastards. Ned thinks about the bastard he just visited, then asks Baelish how many bastards Robert has. Arryn comes in when Ned wonders why Arryn had taken an interest in Robert's bastards. Baelish replies with the suggestion that Robert had asked him to see that they were provided for, and then Ned suggests it must be more than that for someone to want him dead. Baelish mocks the suggestion, and then Ned thinks about Rhaegar.

Arryn wasn't, as far as we know, a frequenter of brothels. It's hard to see how it makes any sense to compare Rhaegar to Arryn in this case. Note the language "He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not." That "somehow" is a surely a little sardonic. It makes much more sense that Ned is contrasting Rhaegar to someone who DID frequent brothels. The context, throughout, is still a discussion of Robert's bastards.

Rather than connect Rhaegar to the type of behavior that leads men to sire bastards, or care for their friend's bastards, Ned separates Rhaegar from both.

I think this is a false connection. Frequenting brothels is one form of behaviour that leads men to sire bastards, but it's far from the only one. There's hardly a shortage of bastards who are not sired in brothels. It does however say something about the character of the person. Much as Ned loves Robert, he also sees Robert as someone who has put his own pleasures above the rulership of the realm.

The contrast is surely with someone who DOES frequent brothels, i.e Robert. The contrast shows the two, Robert and Rhaegar, as being fundamentally different in this regard. That difference precludes the one who does not frequent brothels having "had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives". It doesn't preclude them having had a bastard.

That is the context in which Ned remembers Rhaegar. Ned is not thinking about Jon Snow, or even Robert's bastards. He's thinking about why Jon Arryn was killed, and coming to the conclusion that it had nothing to do with bastards and brothels.

I don't think there's any reason to assume that Ned is no longer thinking about Robert's bastards. He mentions Robert's bastards in the very same sentence he brings up John Arryn -- that is the context for mentioning Arryn in the first place. Nor do I think we should assume that Ned has come to the conclusion that there is no connection. That's what Baelish implies, and Ned has no answer but a frown. That frown to me suggests he is not happy with Baelish's answer. He doesn't have an answer of his own yet, because he hasn't put the pieces of the puzzle together, but he still thinks this is a part of the puzzle. He needs the evidence of the book that Arryn had been reading to understand WHY Arryn had been visiting brothels. With that evidence, he realises that Arryn's brothel visitation was not to see to the well-being of Robert's bastards, but to check the colour of their hair.

Indeed, the roles are inverted as well. This places Ned in the role of kingsguard, not rebel. Ned is a defiant captain who's (sworn) "brother" has sired a bastard on a childwoman.

Unless one of the KG had a wife who abducted Lyanna, I don't think that latter element works very well as an echo. Jaime is justly demanding the return of his sibling. Tyrion was innocent.

It's not Ned's "brother" who has sired the bastards, it's Ned's liege, Robert. Ned is to Robert as Dayne is to Rhaegar.

I have a feeling Ned's cause was not just. I have a feeling Lyanna was far from innocent. And I think Lyanna was not abducted. So I'm seeing more inverses here than echoes.

All that is quite possible. The echo IS fundamentally inverted -- it is Ned who is one of the three, it's Jaime who's demanding the return of a sibling. These echoes frequently are inverted.

I follow your train of thought, but you are assuming quite a bit. We have no reason to assume Lyanna was ever at the tower of joy, or even to assume the tower of joy had an interior. And while I couldn't agree more that the MMD ritual, Ashford, and Whitewalls all unveil Targaryens.

We have no reason NOT to assume those things. The evidence we have suggests that Lyanna was in the Tower of Joy. It's hardly comprehensive evidence, I certainly agree, but it's what we have. It would be making an assumption to believe the opposite, unless we have a reason to do so. The dream appears to imply that Lyanna was indeed there, and the echoes follow that implication. Given how clear some of those echoes are, I'd like to see a good reason to think that Lyanna wasn't there before I doubted that part is also echoed.