Seriously, though, I'm all for new whacky theories, I have my own, but why are people jumping on the astronomy band wagon? I find it hard to believe that GRRM researched astronomy journals for his world. He wouldn't need to. It's fantasy. In a world with dragons and blood magic, the moon can do whatever it wants.
I am working on something right now that focuses more on the "do whatever it wants because fantasy" that I believe may make LmL unhappy.
It shouldn't, really, because I think (I say "think" because I admittedly haven't read, much less absorbed, all 568,722 words of his theories) my findings actually support many of his conclusions....he's just got the wrong source.
Been meaning to say this for at least a week, but been preoccupied. OP was supposed to be humorous. LmL could very well be correct in his assertions. I do know and understand that "ANGRYGOT FAN" is just another fan like us, with a Twitter account, and seems very excitable. Because the astronomy theory is so popular in Westeros right now, I fell over laughing and couldn't help myself. I had to stir the pot. Why not? We do it to all theories- you can play with mine, I honestly am fine with that.
So LmL, if you or your astronomy fans are lurking out there, please know this was never meant to "hurt your feelings". We don't know based on this guy's Twitter rants if what he wrote is true (or at least I haven't researched it yet), or the context, or anything really, as far as I know.
I'm going to send you this post on W assuming you haven't blocked me yet (it's been known to happen), because you are welcome here, just like anybody else. Couldn't hurt, you may broaden your audience, you know. Some of us have friends here not on W. Anyway, even if you decline, I want you to see this was meant all in good fun, my apologies, ser, if the thread offended you.
ETA: OMG! It worked! I'm not blocked from his PM list! Lol! I've tried contacting people before about the essays, and got the big red letters telling me to fuck off, lol! If that had happened, I'd of just found a raven to to find him for me instead
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
DWB- this video right here is one of the reasons why I think you are one of the most underrated funny guys on the ASOIAF forums! You owe me a drink, though, because I knocked mine over reading/watching your response. So much to say in so little words :::
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Greetings Last Hearthers! It is he who must not be named, here to be named. I'll try to keep it under 10,000 words, but of course I have a reputation to keep up, so don't get too excited.
I would have come over sooner, but I have been trying to focus on pounding out my excessively long essays and minimize my chatty-chat time. Voice, Mojo, et all, thanks for inviting me and thinking of me.
So first, to clear the air: I don't block people on principle. So far I have yet to block anyone, though I was sorely tempted by a certain Lannister of questionable "modesty." But let's keep moving.
There are a couple of people I have had issues with on this forum, and those folks may have had issues with me, but I don't see any reason to plow that field. Above all, I care about the books, as I am sure you would all agree. I also know that I can occasionally be touchy, rude, overly opinionated, overly sure of myself, a bit aggressive, etc. Just in the interest of self-awareness, I thought I'd throw that out there. I'm of course working on all of those things, striving to be a better human being and all that. So to anyone who I've rubbed the wrong way or vise versa, let me issue an blanket "yes that was probably at least partially my bad" kind of apology. At the end of the day, my goal is to represent what I see as George's ideas in the best way possible, so I am always at least trying to be a nice guy. I'm a Californian now (SF Bay Area), but I was raised on the east coast, and literally everyone is mean on the East Coast. I smoke as much weed as possible in an effort to mediate this... that works most of the time.
So. Astronomy. I believe there are some misconceptions about what "astronomy" means, as well as what the general premise of the my essays actually is.
Astronomy, in the strictest sense, simply means "man observing the movement of the heavens." That's it. Astronomy is the oldest science, in a manner of speaking, because man has been observing the heavens and making note of them for literally more than ten thousand years, and perhaps far longer. The recent findings of Gobekli Tepe prove this, as do countless other megalithic structures around the world which are inaccurately dated, like the Sphinx and Sphinx Temple, Puma Punku, and a few others. What most people think of when they think of "astronomy" is actually astrophysics. This is an important difference. There is a ton of astronomy in ASOIAF, but there is no astrophysics.
My theories involve astronomy in the most basic sense, not astrophysics. Someone who attempts to explain the Long Night and seasonal wackiness with answers based on astrophysics will of course be wrong. We didn't need this recent "SSM" to know that, as he has made this clear previously. A scientists cannot explain the Long Night, just as a geologist could not explain the Doom of Valyria. And that is not what I am doing, by any means. In fairness, my very first theory DID wander into this territory for like a paragraph, as I speculated that perhaps an axial tilt thrown off by the comet impact may explain the weird seasonal cycles. I was thinking of a wobble which was not in harmony with the orbital cycle, generating weird cross patterns and overlays. But alas, someone showed me the "it's magic, people" SSM and so I had to discard these ideas. I'm not sure if some people on here might be recalling this bit in my first essay and coming to the wrong conclusion, but there it is, full disclosure.
What I AM doing is claiming that "mythical astronomy," that is, myth based on observations of the heavens, can explain the legends of ancient Planetos.
When the ancient indigenous natives of Central and South America observe the course and phases of Venus, and invent a detailed myth about the deeds of Quetzalcoatl which encode those movements into the details of the story, that is "mythical astronomy." Even more simple are myths based on the phases of the moon, which create the image of a moon which dies and is reborn. Ancient man usually regarded the seven celestial wanderers as gods, and when two of them came close to each other in conjunction, myths were made to tell the story. (The seven celestial wanderers are the five planets visible to the naked eye from Earth, plus the sun and moon.) The ancient Egyptians regarded the sun and moon as the Eyes of Horus; to explain why one eye goes black and then opens again, they created a story of Horus being blinded by Set, only to have a new eye fashioned for him by Thoth. Essentially, man has always used mythology as a way of understanding and relating to the heavens, and indeed all significant nature phenomena. Of course we have countless myths to explain the cycle of the seasons, floods, volcanoes, etc., and this is exactly what I am talking about.
When you get right down to it, almost all world mythology is based on observation of the heavens and nature phenomena. This is a sadly under-emphasized aspect of mythology, only mentioned in the margins of most mythology classes, books, wikipedia entries, etc, but it is nevertheless quite true. George R. R. Martin is WELL AWARE of this, I promise, and he has made liberal use of this phenomena. Every single ancient myth in ASOIAF adheres to this principle, it is my assertion.
The best thing we need to talk about is magic. Planetos is a magical planet, no doubt. Here I am going to quote a bit form the introduction of my wordpress blog:
The world that George R. R. Martin has created, the Planetos, if you will, is a most definitely a magical one. Therefore, all of these disasters should be thought of as magically enhanced versions of natural disasters, just as the Doom of Valyria was a magically “enhanced” version of a massive volcanic eruption. The magic of A Song of Ice and Fire is rooted in natural forces, such as ice and fire; water and air; earth, stone, and tree; light, shadow, and blood; suns, moons, stars, and comets. Thus it is only natural that disasters like earthquakes, meteor strikes, and floods have magical origins and come with magical consequences.
We will not be explaining the mysteries of A Song of Ice and Fire with science or astrophysics. “Mythical astronomy” means mythology based on observation of nature and the heavens. The most basic definition of astronomy is just that – observation of the heavens. Man has always used mythology and religion to try to understand the forces of the universe, and George has recreated this phenomena with the ancient legends of A Song of Ice and Fire.
I've been using the Doom to make this point clearly. Was the Doom a volcanic eruption? Yes, absolutely. But a geologist would not be able to explain the cause of the Doom, because nature forces are inherently magical in ASOIAF. In terms of observation, describing the Doom as a supermassive volcanic eruption is accurate, but that's only one half of the story. We know that the 14 fires were a source of fire magic, one which the Valyrians successfully tamed and harnessed for 5,000 years. (As an aside, this proves that magic is indeed predictable to a certain extent, and has rules - we just are not given those rules in any sort of clear fashion. Some people say, wrongly, that ASOIAF magic has no rules and is totally unpredictable, but again, they are wrong, and Valyria proves this. There is nothing more predictable and systematic than building highways, which they did with magic.) When the Doom happened, there can be little count that magic was at work. A normal volcanic eruption creates very fertile land which can be inhabited very soon after the eruption is over. But 400 years later, nobody can even go there. It's some kind of magical fallout zone. So again, we see that George has translated a natural disaster into terms of magic. But the Doom is not irrational - it can be understood. It has specific mechanisms at work.
The Long Night and the proposed comet-kills-moon idea are the same. The sun hid its face for several years - and this too can be understood. It's didn't just go dark "because magic," just as the Doom didn't happen "because magic." The Doom happened because humans were attempting to subjugate and control and harness the magic of the fires, and something happened to disrupt their control, unleashing a pent up "opposite reaction." The sun went dark because something happened to darken the skies. And we know of only two things that can cause this (a nuclear winter) - supermassive volcanic eruptions, and meteor impacts. This is not how I arrived at my conclusions - I did that purely by interpreting the text, which I'm basically as fanatical about as the Spanish Inquisition is about the devotion to the pope and use of the comfy chair. Voice can testify to this. Any proposed hypothesis about anything will either be relatively supported by the text, or it is worthless, in my opinion. I do not fill in gaps with what if's or conjecture. Anyway.
My "mythical astronomy" theory started out because I noticed the Qarthine legend of the second moon cracking like an egg to pour forth dragons, and then it struck me - comets and meteors are described as dragons the world round. All you need to to do is swap "meteors" for "dragons" and this Qarthine story begins to seem a lot more rational. If a moon either cracked or exploded entirely, we would in fact experience a truly horrific bombardment of meteorites, some of which would burn up in the atmosphere like flaming dragons, and some of which would make it to the surface and cause huge detonations. In practical terms, it's likely that such an explosion would produce meteors of the size that would wipe out all life in earth - the threshold for that is about 3-5 miles across. Anything that large or larger... adios muchachos. Now, this isn't astrophysics, so this isn't really a problem. Martin makes the meteors whatever size they need to be to cause a nuclear winter, but not so big as to kill every living thing except voles and beetles and bacteria or whatever. The other thing I noticed is that the moon is also said to have cracked when Nissa Nissa let loose her cry of anguish and ecstasy as Lightbringer was forged. Lightbringer's symbolic association with both comets and dragons is abundant, and thoroughly documented in my first essay... I'm assuming everyone is familiar with those quotes. Given this, it's not hard to see how these myths relate. In one story, dragons are born, in the other, Lightbringer is born, and those are symbolically the same thing. The moon cracks in both instances. If Lightbringer was a comet, blazing with the sun's fire, and the moon exploded, it's natural to associate Nissa Nissa with the moon and Azor Ahai, warrior of fire, with the sun. The sun stabbed the moon with a comet, flaming dragon meteors were born.
To create the image of a moon cracking because it wandered too close to the sun, we merely need an eclipse formation at the moment of impact. This would also make the comet appear to have been wielded by the sun, like a sword... something like this:
That's the ice moon in the foreground, the "watcher," and the fire moon superimposed over the sun like the pupil of an eye.
And yes, you are looking at the "God's Eye." The Isle of Faces creates a similar image with the God's Eye lake, and of course the moon can be a face. The Hammer of the Waters - which is a moon meteor impact, according to my interpretation - came from the God's Eye, so to speak, according to the story of the cotf summoning it from the Isle of Faces. Astronomically, the Hammer came from the God's Eye as well. All of the one-eyed seers in SOIAF refer back to this concept, I have found. Similar tot he Horus myth of the sun and moon being the eyes of God, the blinding of God's Eye is what causes the Long Night. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield tells this story - in this alignment, Serwyn the WHite Knight is the Ice moon, and he spears the dragon Urrax in one eye, blinding him. God's Eye is Urrax's eye, and it is blinded. Serwyn and the rest of us are then haunted by the ghosts of those he slew - and I actually think there might be a moon meteor lodged inside that Ice Moon, which may be causing the weirdness with the heart of winter and the Others. But I digress.
I should mention that this God's Eye concept is most closely related to Bloodraven, and thereby to Odin, perhaps the best known mythological "one eyed seer" archetype. Odin is blinded in one eye to gain magic sight (Wheel of Time readers will recall that Matt did the same). The phrase "a thousand eyes and one" has a double meaning - the "one" eye is the God's Eye, and the thousand eyes are the dragon meteors. I should not have to work very hard to point out that stars and eyes are equated all the damn time in ASOIAF, and falling stars are no different. A thousand eyes and one. Pretty cool, huh? This God's Eye is also seen in the sigil of Euron Crow's Eye - a red eye with a black pupil, with two crows holding up a black iron crown. The golden crown of kings is meant to depict the solar rays crowning the sun, and of course kings are usually identified with the sun all around the world. A black crown therefore represents the darkened sun - the Lion of Night - and indeed the sun wore a black crown during the Long Night. Crows and ravens are analogous to the meteors, because they are black messengers who fly. The moon meteors are the greasy black stones - here's my case for that - and so crows and ravens, with their feathers black as night, make an apt symbol. The comet is seen as a messenger, a dark omen, just as the ravens are. This whole concept goes very far, as Martin is using it liberally all throughout the series, but I don't want to bog down this summary (this is as TL;DR as it gets, btw) any more than is necessary. Check out the link a couple lines above, which also outlines the evidence for this. In any case, Euron's sigil is like a star map.
Besides having a fiery eye, God also has a fiery hand. The warriors of the red temple are called the fiery hand, and they always number one thousand (one thousand being a general tip-off to look for a meteor shower metaphor). I can't resist quoting this scene from ADWD, as it is basically Benerro pantomiming the basics of my theory:
The knight nodded. “The red temple buys them as children and makes them priests or temple prostitutes or warriors. Look there.” He pointed at the steps, where a line of men in ornate armor and orange cloaks stood before the temple’s doors, clasping spears with points like writhing flames. “The Fiery Hand. The Lord of Light’s sacred soldiers, defenders of the temple.”
Fire knights. “And how many fingers does this hand have, pray?”
“One thousand. Never more, and never less. A new flame is kindled for every one that gutters out.”
Benerro jabbed a finger at the moon, made a fist, spread his hands wide. When his voice rose in a crescendo, flames leapt from his fingers with a sudden whoosh and made the crowd gasp. The priest could trace fiery letters in the air as well. Valyrian glyphs. Tyrion recognized perhaps two in ten; one was Doom, the other Darkness. (ADWD, Tyrion)
As you can see, George is depicting this God's Eye explosion a number of ways. It can be the blinding of God's Eye, it can be the sun striking his moon wife with a sword (or impregnating his moon wife with his penis, as it happens), it can be the moon wandering too close to the sun, it can be the ice moon stabbing the sun, it can be the opening of the fiery hand of god, it can be a solar king being decapitated, throat slit, or having his crown broken. A maiden falling from a tower is the moon falling from the sky. A maiden dying in the top of a tower in a bed of "moon blood" is the same idea (sorry guys, but Lyanna was probably in that tower, I'm afraid to say). It can be Daenerys, the moon of Drogo's life, being immolated in the pyre of her solar king Drogo to wake dragons from stone (meteors). Hearkening back to the Hammer of the Waters, you'll notice when you read over Dany's dragon hatching scene that the third crack was"as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world." That's because the Hammer fell on the arm of Dorne at the beginning of the Long Night, not thousand of years before as we are told. One of the Stepstones is called Bloodstone, just to clue us in. Daemon Targaryen, a usurper who plays the role of Bloodstone Emperor / Azor Ahai (they are the same person), takes Bloodstone for his seat when he usurps, declaring himself King of the Narrow Sea. Daemon also fights a dragon on dragon duel above the God's Eye lake, and stabs Aemon Targaryen in the eye, a particularly nice metaphor. I'm telling you, once you have the basic patterns in mind, you will see them everywhere. because they ARE everywhere. That's why my essays are all 10,000 words. Fully a third of those words are text quotes, and most of the rest of it is my attempt to interpret the text as closely as possible. There are so many examples 0 they are in almost every chapter - and so when I am trying to prove something, the hard thing is to narrow them down and only use a few. I could write 30,000 words just on one-eyed people and animals in ASOIAF.
This is what I do: I follow the text. That's it. I don't brainstorm, I don't fill in the gaps. When there is a gap, and my brain thinks of a potential bridge, I will never tell anyone until I have found adequate corroboration in the books. This only happens occasionally, usually one discovery in the text leads to another, so once I grabbed a hold of the tiger's tail, he's been dragging me through the jungle ever since. Once you pull on the right thread, the knot kind of falls apart on its own.
Now, let's go back to astronomy (yes, this is running long, I'm almost done. Fear not.) "Is there an astronomy system in ASOIAF?" Yes, of fucking course there is. Are there stars in the heavens which rotate? Is there a sun? Does the planet go around the sun? Yes yes and yes. We know the exact length of the lunar cycle - 30 days - because of Arya's activities in the HOBW, where she serves 27 days with Brusco, then three with the temple when the moon goes black. George has named constellations, pointed out the seven wanderers, the 12 zodiacs, etc. The maesters are conducting astronomy - observation of the heavens. I have no idea how valid this SSM is, or what the question was, but most likely what George meant was what he said before - astrophysics does not explain the Long Night or anything else.
Many of you will know that Elio's biggest regret for TWOIAF was that they had to cut out the STAR MAP OF ALL THE CONSTELLATIONS which they came up with for the book.
I'll let that sink in - George and E & L fully intended to put a fucking star chart in TWOAIF. So... no astronomy in ASOIAF? Hardly. Until we get some further clarification of this SSM, it in no way conflicts with any part of my theorizing, not even in the slightest.
Bottom line, it's all in the text.
In closing, let me point at some of the other myths which refer to the moon destruction event. They key element to understand here is that the moon is a goddess, the wife of the sun as the Dothraki handmaidens tell us. What we are looking for is any myth which involves a goddess or star being pulled own from heaven, or fire being pulled own from heaven.
The Grey King stories of the slaying the sea dragon which drowns whole islands is easy to understand if you once again replace "dragon" with "meteor." A fiery meteor which drowns islands makes perfect sense. It was "slain" when it fell from the sky, and when the Grey King is said to have possessed Nagga's fire, this means he made some kind of weapon form the moon meteors, in my opinion. The ancient Ironborn had black weapons which drank the should of those they slew. In case you have never read any of my stiff, Azor Ahai was a and guy, not the hero, and Lightbringer, his sword, was no light-bringer. It was a night-bringer. The astronomy backs up what our conscience intrinsically tells us - only doom and darkness come from murdering your wife with a sword in a blood magic ritual. The comet's striking of the second moon caused the Long Night, as opposed to ending it. Similarly, the Bloodstone Emperor is said to have caused the Long Night when he murdered his sister. He then dove headfirst into dark magic and worshipped a black meteor. if I am right that AA = BSE, then AA made his terrifying sword from a black meteor... and I have found so much evidence for this.. it's one of the rings nobody will ever talk me out of. Nightbringer, the black sword, burning with red and black fire to match that of the black dragons. Aegon, rider of the black dragon, bears the sword "Blackfyre" - that's a major clue. Lightbringer drank the blood and soul of Nissa Nissa, matching the soul drinking black weapons of the Ironborn. The Dornishman's blade was made of black steel, and its kiss was a s sharp and cold as a leech - leeches drink blood, just like Lightbringer, the black sword. There's a whole concept hear about drinking the light - the greasy black stone (moon meteors) do it, Ned's sword does it, a few others. It's the opposite of light-bringing.
Oops, I digressed. So, Sea Dragon = pulling down of the moon goddess, parts of which landed in the sea. That's a drowned goddess, btw, but nobody tell those patriarchal asshole ironborn because it will blow their tiny brains into smithereens. The Grey King also tricked the Storm God into throwing a thunderbolt, which stet fire to trees. That's another way of describing the moon meteor / sea dragon. You'll note the petrified weirwoods (Nagga's bones) on Old Wyk - those trees died in the impact, somehow. The Grey King also took a mermaid to wife, and a mermaid is just another way to describe a drowned goddess, a goddess that goes swimming. Here is my essay on Ironborn mythology, which is supported by as much text as I thought necessary.
Durran Godsgrief - he stole the daughter of the gods, who is a bit mermaid like herself, being the daughter of wind and waves (Elenei also has some etymology which points at sea goddesses). This immediately caused the wrath of the gods fall in the form of a horrific storm and tsunami which killed everyone but Durran and Elenei. That's a description of the tsunami which would have raced up the newly formed Narrow Sea when the Hammer of the Waters meteor hit.
Hugor Hill - had "the Maiden" pull down seven stars for his crown. Married a maiden with eyes like blue pools (whiffs of mermaid again).
Galladon of Morne - the maiden "lost her heart" to him - that's Nissa Nissa moon, losing her heart - and gave Galldon a magic sword. That's the Azor Ahai story - a moon maiden, losing her heart to create a magic sword for a warrior of unrivaled prowess.
There are a few others, but I think I've typed enough for now. Hopefully I have both cleared up any confusion about the use of "astronomy" in my theories and in the books, as well as introduced my general theory to any who may not be familiar.
Because I know my essays are long, and not everyone has the time to read them, I am currently recording an audio form of my first essay. I'm also heavily editing it, because when I first wrote it, I used the first couple of astronomy metaphors that I had found, but they are not the clearest or most relevant ones... so I am changing that around a bit, instead using the most clear and most relevant examples, such as Dany's dragon birth. I hope to have it out in the next week or two, so if you're reluctant or too busy to read my theories, just wait for that as it will my best effort at an introduction to my essays.
Thanks everyone for you time, I look forward to hearing some feedback.
When you get right down to it, almost all world mythology is based on observation of the heavens and nature phenomena.
I quite agree. I have posted before the astronomy (and astrology) foundation that Christianity is built on.
Now that I've read this it makes me want to read more. If it's easy for you, please provide links to your other works.
Haha, I guess I did just write a new essay. That started out as a comment. Thanks very much, Melisandra with an"A." Just click on the link at the bottom, in my signature, and the essays are in reading order.
This was really helpful, at least to me. Sometimes I get weighted down in the length and it actually takes away from my focus. Thanks.
Yeah, I know... they're long. No help for it, but I'm glad this worked to summarize for you. That's why I am doing to audio recordings, its a lot easier to listen to an hour-long podcast than read an hour-long essay on the comp.
Dude, I have a reputation for being the biggest asshole in the world sometimes, and it was ME not voice who got LmL to join!! Bwahahahaha! And you're good friends with voice, too, right?!
See guys, I'm not as evil as my reputation. I'm forever going to make fun of voice now because you like me more than him, and I haven't even read your theories! (No offense, we discussed this, but I budgeted some time to try to read this post, although I'm annoying the fuck out of my S.O. for not paying attention to him instead)
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Dude, I have a reputation for being the biggest asshole in the world sometimes, and it was ME not voice who got LmL to join!! Bwahahahaha! And you're good friends with voice, too, right?!
See guys, I'm not as evil as my reputation. I'm forever going to make fun of voice now because you like me more than him, and I haven't even read your theories! (No offense, we discussed this, but I budgeted some time to try to read this post, although I'm annoying the fuck out of my S.O. for not paying attention to him instead)
Greetings Last Hearthers! It is he who must not be named, here to be named. I'll try to keep it under 10,000 words, but of course I have a reputation to keep up, so don't get too excited.
I would have come over sooner, but I have been trying to focus on pounding out my excessively long essays and minimize my chatty-chat time. Voice, Mojo, et all, thanks for inviting me and thinking of me.
So first, to clear the air: I don't block people on principle. So far I have yet to block anyone, though I was sorely tempted by a certain Lannister of questionable "modesty." But let's keep moving.
There are a couple of people I have had issues with on this forum, and those folks may have had issues with me, but I don't see any reason to plow that field. Above all, I care about the books, as I am sure you would all agree. I also know that I can occasionally be touchy, rude, overly opinionated, overly sure of myself, a bit aggressive, etc. Just in the interest of self-awareness, I thought I'd throw that out there. I'm of course working on all of those things, striving to be a better human being and all that. So to anyone who I've rubbed the wrong way or vise versa, let me issue an blanket "yes that was probably at least partially my bad" kind of apology. At the end of the day, my goal is to represent what I see as George's ideas in the best way possible, so I am always at least trying to be a nice guy. I'm a Californian now (SF Bay Area), but I was raised on the east coast, and literally everyone is mean on the East Coast. I smoke as much weed as possible in an effort to mediate this... that works most of the time.
::: Awesome attitude, LmL, and I'm going to take partial credit here for your jovial mood after our productive conversation. Really big of you to say this, we're all humans, and all have our faults, and I'm striving to be less of a dick because I've learned my sense of humor doesn't translate so much online, but I promise my friends IRL find me hilarious. My comedy needs some tweaking to work in print, I guess. Maybe I'll take a class at the community college.
great idea about the podcast. I am NOT an RLJ believer, I don't hide that, but I don't see why that should matter. I'm not that into Jon Snow anyway, but like reading other subjects. Like my Jamie Lannister forensic file, for example, but since I haven't read your theories yet, I won't push it yet.
if we all agree on everything, this becomes a big boring echo chamber.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
It's almost hard to believe that to anyone familiar with your stuff, that post was the nutshell version. lol
Anyway, I think you are 100% kee-rect in that the ASOIAF story is rooted in mythology. I do look forward to your thoughts once I finally finish my own essay that diverges from yours on WHERE the mythologies actually began.
Sorry LmL, got distracted. I'm going to keep trying, though, like the little engine that could!!
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
In the Old Testament, we get another great example of a potential deity confusion. There are actually two very different Canaanite (Phoenician) deities who have been mixed up together and remembered as the same guy. Originally, we had El, or Elohim, who is more of a standard “Father God” deity – the “creator of creatures,” “father of the gods,” “King,” “God eternal,” “father of wisdom,” etc. El is basically the oldest Caananite deity anyone knows of, the original bull deity and father of Ba’al, who’s actually the most famous bull-god / Corn King deity (we will return to take a closer look at Ba’al when we get to the section about Garth the Green).
lml, you brought up the 26,000 year cycle of the precession of the equinoxes, and yet you neglect to include an alternate explanation for the bull deity as being Taurus. In the beginning of Genesis the people worship the Ram (Aries), then the Bull (Taurus), then the two Fish of Jesus (Pisces). At the last supper, Jesus's disciples asked him who they should follow after his death. He told them to go towards a well and look for a man carrying a pitcher of water (Aquarius).
The beliefs of each 26,000 year "age" changed, as you touched on when Yaweh/Jehovah (Aries the Ram) replaced Elohim (Taurus the bull).
This is one subject that really fascinates me, so I'm really enjoying your essays.
Hey Mel, thanks very much and I'm glad you're enjoying them. So, you think my essay should have been longer with more information, is that what you're saying?? Then you are MY KIND OF PERSON! You raise great points here. Jesus and Osiris are certainly solar kings in certain senses. None of this stuff is cut and dried, and different aspects are emphasized in different contexts; time and distance and cultural drift play a part also. Most Christians certainly don't realize Jesus is what I would call an "Osirian" deity. I was emphasizing the Mornigstar aspect because it was more relevant to the angle I was pursuing in that essay. So too with the ages of the zodiac - I am hip to that concept. If I included every interesting bit of mythology that I could.. well my theories are already quote long. I frequently have to make hard choices about how much "non-ASOIAF" material to include in an essay. Some people (sadly) have very low thresholds for that, and I my goal is point out the genius of what Martin has achieved, so I try to sneak the mythology in little bits as much as possible. The "Lucifer means Lightbringer" essay used to me meshed into the first and third essays, but I was giving in short shrift in an effort to focus on book material, so I split it off to give it room to breathe.
That said, I'd love to hear you ideas about how I can use the ages of the zodiac in a way to is expository to the story, and if you feel called to write your own essay in this regard, please feel free to reference anything I have done in order to build on to it or add to it. Also, I don't have a college diploma, I haven't taken world mythology courses. I am totally self taught in this regard (I read a lot), so it's likely you and many others have a more complete knowledge of any given area of mythology. I have learned a great deal in the course of following this line of research over the past six months. I didn't know jack shit about Kali a month ago; but I noticed one Kali reference, followed the trail, and now I know a fair amount. So even though I might sound fairly knowledgeable in one instance, don't assume I'm any kind of expert or someone with a well rounded knowledge of mythology such as one who has studied these things in college for several years. I am always eager to be educated and enlightened. So again, I'm all ears if you have any thoughts or ideas. Sounds like you know your stuff.
You'll notice the crossover between Morningstar deity and solar deity, both in real life and in ASOIAF. As I believe I have shown, most of the Morningstar traits have been conferred over to the comet, instead of Venus, in part because it suits the Lightbringer myth and also because the comet has the same celestial behavior and appearance when it is in the inner solar system. The Morningstar, the comet, is wielded by the solar king, and is thus and extension of him. Martin is big into transformations - Dany starts out as a clear moon maiden, but after the dragon birth, she transforms into a comet and solar king herself. She takes on the white lion pelt and puts bells in her hair so "people will know Drogo's strength resides inside her." She leads her people and becomes Khaleesi, a door queen. She even takes to "brides," fire moon bride Daario and Ice Moon bride Hizdahr of the frozen cock and tepid kisses. (It's kind of fun to call Daario a bride, go on an try it ) He can do this because of the celestial mechanics - the comet splits in half, and when one explodes the moon, the other half survives and appears to emerge from the explosion. I think that the comet underwent transformation here - in the Lightbinger myth, the sword is white hot and "smoking" when he stabs NN, and comes out red afterward. As I said in the essay, real comets are never red, but blue and white (Dawn, anyone? Swords of so overly blue pale flame, like Jaime's dream?), yet our surviving comet half returned to the story is red. I think the deal is that the surviving half was "radiated" by the explosion which transformed the moon rocks to black, sun-drinking stone, and this is when it became a red comet. So, to the observer, it looks like a white sword killed the moon, and came out the other side red, dripping in blood or lit on fire. Dany represents this "new" comet, born of the fire of the sun and moon's death. Her three dragons are the three meteors, and she herself is the survivor comet. At least that's what I am seeing. It's a bit confusing when we get to overlapping archetypes.
What's interesting is the one husband two wives pattern. Aegon the Conqueror and Rhaegar fit the pattern perfectly. They both impregnate their fire bride first - Rhaenys and Elia - and these two brides die young. Rhaenys even replays the Serwyn / God's Eye motif of the dragon losing an eye. Elia dies in childbirth, like the fire moon. Then our solar king takes an icy bride - Visenya, and Lyanna.
You'll notice than celestially, only one moon has been "fertilized" by the solar comet. You'll also notice the Qarthine legend predicts that the remaining moon will one day suffer the same fate as the first. And this is one of my few measurable predictions - the ice moon will get hit by a comet sometime in the next two books. Then we shall know if I am correct or not! (fingers crossed) Last time we had a white sword plunging into a "red" (fiery) moon, and this time it will be a red sword plunging into a white (icy) moon - a neat little flip flop.
Ok, so the point is this - Dany represents the fire moon, first and foremost. An event which happened already.
Jon Snow is the child of ice moon and solar king (assuming RLJ, and we can open the "Jon Dayne" can of worms another time, I'm open to it). This means he is the prince who was promised - he represents an event which HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. When (and if) the ice moon is cracked, this event will directly tie to Jon. Now, disclaimers: I don't think the ice moon will be completely destroyed. Planetos would be doomed without a moon - moons hold the axial tilt in place. No moon = planet rolling on its side = instant death of every living thing. Martin, as a sci fi writer, surely knows this. The composition of ice moons as well as certain foreshadowing I have picked up on suggest that what will happen is that the ice moon will retain its rocky core, but lose its ice and water. Ice moons (Google Europa, Encledes) are mostly a rocky ball, surrounded by a global ocean layer (water or liquid methane) and then a icy crust. It seems we are headed for a non-magical, barren rocky moon, just like earth has. In this way Martin may be planning to very subtlet wave at the old fantasy trope of ending your fantasy novel by implying that it could have been earth, in the distant past.
To finish up about Morningstar deities, I think we need to understand that the Morningstar is kind of like a piece of the godhead which is split off and descends to earth. You might say that God the father is the solar deity, and Jesus is his son but also another manifestation of the same God. Jesus has those solar attributes, but the hallmark of the Morninstar deity is to descend from heaven and bring the terrible divine knowledge to earth. He / she is always killed and resurrected. Ishtar, Quetzalcoatl, Jesus, Lucifer, Osiris. Gilgamesh. Many others. In some myths the story shifts about - Lucifer the fallen angel is not exactly the same as Jesus the son of God, but they both follow the pattern. And that's why both are referred to with the Hebrew "Helel Ben Sharar," which is "shining one," Morningstar, "son of the morning".... light-bearer and light-bringer.
Haha, I guess I did just write a new essay. That started out as a comment. Thanks very much, Melisandra with an"A." Just click on the link at the bottom, in my signature, and the essays are in reading order.
Just started reading "Lucifer Means Lightbringer" and had a quick question...you don't consider Jesus a sun-god (vs morningstar diety)? The sun has 12 disciples just like Jesus. They are the 12 signs of the zodiac. Many crosses also have a circle around the top splitting the circle into four sections which represent the air, water, fire and earth signs. Jesus began his ministry at 30 years of age while the sun enters the zodiac at 30 degrees. The sun is hottest at 12 noon, while Jesus was said to begin his father's work at the age of 12. The sun seems to lose strength (dies) at the winter solstice, but after 3 days it rises again. Jesus was also said to rise from the dead after three days. Jesus was said to wear a thorny crown, while the sun has a corona which resembles a crown. There's many more comparisons, but I just wanted to get your thoughts about this.
You know what, you should just wait for the podcast. When I first wrote my first essay, I used the first astro metaphors I stumbled upon, but they are not the most clear. The updated version which will be the script for the podcast (I'm mostly done with it) will hopefully make a better introduction to the theory. Then the rest of it will make a lot more sense. I'm a musician / audio engineer, so the thing will sound decent. My wife is reading all the text quotes, while I read the analysis, and she has a lovely voice... which means it won't be 50 minutes of a dude's voice droning on and on... zzzzzz.... We have a good format, and so far I think it's sounding highly listenable. So I am optimistic. If you don't like reading super long text on the comp (I don't blame you one bit) the audio form will be much easier. I swear by audiobooks myself, so I get it. Nobody has that much time to just sit there. Listen to my easy and do the dishes, clean your house. Works very well.
Greetings Last Hearthers! It is he who must not be named, here to be named. I'll try to keep it under 10,000 words, but of course I have a reputation to keep up, so don't get too excited.
I would have come over sooner, but I have been trying to focus on pounding out my excessively long essays and minimize my chatty-chat time. Voice, Mojo, et all, thanks for inviting me and thinking of me.
So first, to clear the air: I don't block people on principle. So far I have yet to block anyone, though I was sorely tempted by a certain Lannister of questionable "modesty." But let's keep moving.
There are a couple of people I have had issues with on this forum, and those folks may have had issues with me, but I don't see any reason to plow that field. Above all, I care about the books, as I am sure you would all agree. I also know that I can occasionally be touchy, rude, overly opinionated, overly sure of myself, a bit aggressive, etc. Just in the interest of self-awareness, I thought I'd throw that out there. I'm of course working on all of those things, striving to be a better human being and all that. So to anyone who I've rubbed the wrong way or vise versa, let me issue an blanket "yes that was probably at least partially my bad" kind of apology. At the end of the day, my goal is to represent what I see as George's ideas in the best way possible, so I am always at least trying to be a nice guy. I'm a Californian now (SF Bay Area), but I was raised on the east coast, and literally everyone is mean on the East Coast. I smoke as much weed as possible in an effort to mediate this... that works most of the time.
::: Awesome attitude, LmL, and I'm going to take partial credit here for your jovial mood after our productive conversation. Really big of you to say this, we're all humans, and all have our faults, and I'm striving to be less of a dick because I've learned my sense of humor doesn't translate so much online, but I promise my friends IRL find me hilarious. My comedy needs some tweaking to work in print, I guess. Maybe I'll take a class at the community college.
great idea about the podcast. I am NOT an RLJ believer, I don't hide that, but I don't see why that should matter. I'm not that into Jon Snow anyway, but like reading other subjects. Like my Jamie Lannister forensic file, for example, but since I haven't read your theories yet, I won't push it yet.
if we all agree on everything, this becomes a big boring echo chamber.
As a fellow user of "the sarcasm," I get where you're coming from here. strictly text format is the death of comedy.
I try to have a bit of self awareness, when you're an intense person it really goes a long way. People will give you a lot of cushion and understanding if you can occasionally apologize and show some self awareness. Nobody is perfect, and nobody likes someone who acts like they are. I do my best and am no stranger to apologizing.
Voice has been bugging me to get over here too, but in fairness, you got the sale, so you get the commission. I used to work at Guitar Center, so I can't help the metaphor here. Voice was helping me earlier, so give him a quadski (sales lingo for 25% commission).
FWIW I do get your humor and think you quite funny. I can be real serious but I like to fuck off too, so don't think I'm some sort of pseudo-intellectual that doesn't have time to bullshit. I love bullshitting.