And now, again, you've made my crazy rambling actually make some sense. Kinda fits, doesn't it? I'm beginning to think that this entire series is just an entire collection of echoes. ETA: In a way this scene never made sense. If Lady Barbrey had already been married six months before the war how could they have known to give up hope on Ned? Brandon would still have been alive.
On the bolded--I can't help you.
But I agree on the books being collections of echoes. The Barbrey incident is just too close to Lysa's, and, for me at least, helps explain why we're getting the random oversharing in the Winterfell crypts.
So--Brandon could be Ashara's lover. Or--we could have there: Littlefinger as Lysa's ideal/ chased love. Brandon as Barbrey's. And Ned as Ashara's. Three very different men, echoing each other with three different women. But all three ending up tied to Cat. Don't mess with Cat!
“Be quiet, I haven’t given you leave to speak. You enticed him, just as your mother did that night in Riverrun, with her smiles and her dancing . You think I could forget? That was the night I stole up to his bed to give him comfort. I bled, but it was the sweetest hurt. He told me he loved me then, but he called me Cat, just before he fell back to sleep. Even so , I stayed with him until the sky began to lighten. Your mother did not deserve him. She would not even give him her favor to wear when he fought Brandon Stark. I would have given him my favor. I gave him everything . He is mine now. Not Catelyn’s and not yours.”
Bloody hell. Lisa and Barbrey--the joint queens of oversharing. Even the language is similar.
Plus, Lysa's also resentful of Brandon--and echo of Barbrey's resentment of Rickard? And possibly even Ashara's of either Brandon or Lyanna?
All of Sansa’s resolve had withered in the face of her aunt’s onslaught. Lysa Arryn was frightening her as much as Queen Cersei ever had. “He’s yours, my lady,” she said, trying to sound meek and contrite. “May I have your leave to go?”
An echo I hadn't thought of, but it fits. . . I think: Cersei's idealization of Rhaegar. That she was supposed to have him, like a gift from her father. But was robbed by ambitious/resentful Aerys. Like Barbrey was robbed by Rickard. And Lysa by her father.
So, what did the Lord of Starfall think if Ashara did have a stillborn child? At least the present Daynes don't seem too fussed about it.
ff topic warning...I think Arya should get the for being able to hold onto her sentinel Needle. :-)
Amen! And am liking the idea that the yowling cat=reward.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Just wanted to point out that Sansa is also given a rose at a tourney. And, the victor of that tourney later protects her from a rebellion in KL. He also steals into her bedchamber, and later abducts Lyanna/Arya.
There really is no way around this, is there? And stole into her bedchamber during impending danger to get her out.
I waffle on where the echoes go--but the idea that Lyanna was taken and then rescued. .. seems like that comes up repeatedly as a possibility.
And in all cases--the prince is not very helpful. Or downright injurious to the process.
Peculiar isn't it, as it is rather unwarranted. Sansa might look like her mother, but she hasn't been acting like her. Can't help but see that from both Lysa and Petyr's point of view, Cat was a tease. Why has GRRM mislabeled Cat-Sansa for us in their eyes?
Did Lyanna take flirting to a dangerous level?
Given the latest Mercy and Alayne chapters, I'm thinking it likely.
Or was Lyanna's behavior misinterpreted? Arya's actively trying to deceive for revenge. . . from what we've seen with Lyanna (limited), would she bother with being sneaky or just dump something on someone's head?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Bollocks to it! I'm jumping right in, cuz rereading is doing my nut in, I feel silly answering posts weeks old when the conversation is continuing on the same theme...
This. I believe the parallel with Arya is a false lead. Remember, she is also said to look like Ned, not just Lyanna. Not to mention how many times she's been compared to Jon.
On that vein, Arya's only important link with Lyanna's is the wolfblood. Martin is telling is that Lyanna is an autonomous agent. She has the wolfblood for a reason, and that reason (aside from being implicated in causing her untimely death) is to give us the hint that she, Lyanna, is also capable of what Arya is, to a certain extent obvs.
While Sansa's wolfblood has been suppressed (rather violently) and only shows up in fits and starts. But her "journey" MIGHT parallel Lyanna's more.
Ok, maybe she will end up married to Edric Dayne, but he has to survive the BwB first and last time we saw them he wasn't there. I also have a vague rememberance of him being sickly, or was that the wrong impression? Did he go home, since it was Dondarrian he was squire to, not anyone else.
As to Nymeria, the woman not the direwolf, she married a Martell. Was she not the one to set up the water gardens and make them for everyone? But I do like the connection that the two would make. Arya and Ned would finish what was started 20 years earlier. And with a nod to Voice, Arya...Ashara both end and begin with A. Not mention the Ned connection, heh.
Yeah--it works nice symbolically. But the practical would be hard. And a bit cutesy. I like that Edric seems so very nice and deferential. But I really, really, what the Starks to get back to Winterfell. Together. As many of them as possible. For as long as possible. Kinda seems like it might matter how the "magical blood" mix is needed to guard the north and the sword. . .
And, yes, Nymeria married a Martell. But her third husband was Davos Dayne, a Sword of the Morning. But the Martells are descended from the Nymeria-Martell kid.
As for the whereabouts of Edric, LmL and others were speculating elsewhere that Edric did go home, as you suggest. Which might put him in a position to help get Dawn north.
Now this makes me think that Arya's going to keep the Kings of Winter alive, rather than tie it up with the Daynes. She's the warrior, even if she's called assassin. Ned's(?) description of the KoW as hard, harsh men, equal to their time, is a fair description of Arya on the inside. She'll take no quarter from the folks on her list, and she'll not be sucked into the Faceless Men's religious beliefs. Yes, she is soft too, but I'm sure the KoW had their soft sides, after all, didn't one of them name his daughter's bastard as a the Stark Lord, at a time that bastards were thrown down wells?
And the fact that she's the only one to keep a Stark sword is also symbolic of the KoWs in the crypts. They take 'their' swords with them and that sword is not Ice.
I like this, too. And the sentinel trees with their gray-green needles are in the north, guarding the godswood. Arya has that moment in Harrenhal practicing her sword work in a tree in the godswood. So, Arya as the spear maiden guardian of the north--it works.
That is the kind of thing Martin does though. If you look at RLJ, it's blatant. With Sansa, it's subtle and makes me think that it's more true (truer?) than RLJ because of it. A mystery writer doesn't bash you over the head unless he's making a red herring. So as far as parallels with Lyanna, we can take from Sansa, Arya and Marg. All three girls are caught up in the game of thrones, and each expresses individuality in how they deal with it. But all three also express a certain amount of autonomy in how they play. And all three are indeed players.
Had not thought of the Marg parallel and am now feeling stupid. Roses. I'm an idiot.
Arya's learning the value of working outside the class system (for lack of a better way to put it)--but she's living with a death cult.
Marg's embraced the game, and is locked up by fanatics while her ineffective (if cuddly) husband plays with his kittens. Not euphemistically.
Sansa--believed the songs. Has learned they are lies. But has learned the value of the "warrior" vs. the "politician" and engaging in the game. . . the game cost Lysa and Barbery a LOT. Seems like it might also have cost Ashara. And definitely Lyanna. So. . . can Sansa do something with what's she's learned vs. throwing herself out a window?
Brain dump? I thought you'd said you'd glanced through some of the thread. More than half my posts are just piles of "hmmmm"
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
It could be cutesy in how it's handled, but what if we spun this as the second chance of that original failed attempt, it might actually work because, like you say, it's crucial to have those blood lines and the sword together in one family? If Arya marries Ned, then it could be her child that carries the SotM in future and will have all of what house Stark and house Dayne have to offer. Yes, Jon can carry it right now, but he will eventually die and the sword go back to house Dayne of Starfall, since he's illegitimate. Unless he's not, and all I said above is therefore rubbish, because as the oldest son of the oldest Dayne to have a son, he can found his own new dynasty up north.
And might also depend on why the sword is sent south in the first place--which is a piece we don't yet have. If there's a reason for it (which I think there is), the sword will have to go south. Re-establishing the tradition of a sword that is not inherited, but earned. If no one earns it, it just remains at Starfall, until the next Sword of the Morning shall rise.
And, given what all of the Starks have seen concerning "dynasty"--seems like there's a chance they might go back to the "Guardian" mindset. Jon the "watcher" and "sword." Sansa the "rebuilder" and "nurturer." Arya the sentinel with a Needle--none of that is classic "I am the King!" idiocy. Just straight up caretaking. . . though that may be a fantasy a bit to far even for a fantasy novel.
Pardon? When did this happen? I don't recall that from the books at all.
It's in the World Book: QUOTE: Though she married twice more (first to the aged Lord Uller of Hellholt, and later to the dashing Ser Davos Dayne of Starfall, the Sword of the Morning), Nymeria herself remained the unquestioned ruler of Dorne for almost twentyseven years, her husbands serving only as counselors and consorts. She survived a dozen attempts upon her life, put down two rebellions, and threw back two invasions by the Storm King Durran the Third and one by King Greydon of the Reach.
When at last she died, it was the eldest of her four daughters by Mors Martell who succeeded her, not her son by Davos Dayne, for by then the Dornish had come to adopt many of the laws and customs of the Rhoynar, though the memories of Mother Rhoyne and the ten thousand ships were fading into legend. World Book: Ancient History--Ten Thousand Ships.
Arya has a lot of Valkyrie imagery around her, definitely. While Sansa has some Seidr imagery to her. I think in this Sansa is much closer to Lyanna. I'm not too concern with them being 'seers' but with how they change and realign the weft of history. If you see where I'm going with this. And as the person that knows full well Sansa building that snow castle has put herself in a trance like state, I'm pretty sure you get were I'm headed.
OOOHHH!!! I like this! I need to have a think re: the Seidr idea, but off the top of my head, I really think you are right. The trance state, which also leads to her stating truths right to Littlefinger's face. . . . Need to give this a think.
It's more that just the roses. Margaery is used as a political pawn by her family, first to marry the prime contender for the throne, Renly, and then to marry two successive Lannister Kings (refuse to call them Baratheons) and all the while she's not the ambitious one, but she plays her part skilfully. It's Olenna's plan that she's caught in, just like Lyanna is caught in her father's. However, Marg acquits herself beautifully against a nasty adversary and endures captivity in relative comfort. Nothing like what Cersei suffers.
Though I worry about whether or not Marg will make it through. I'm not sure the game of thrones is really good for anyone in these novels. . . even nice, rosy, politicos like Margy.
The take away is that Lyanna, manipulated into a position of power, due to her father's ambitions, also acquits herself quite adroitly, well but for the unfortunate death at her end, be it childbirth or some grievous wound taken as a result of her impulsive wolf's blood. And again, the parallel of Cersei being today's Aerys does not bode well for her.
To loop back to Lady Dyanna's Echoes thread--this brings me back to the incident where Sansa loses her wolf based on the cruel whims of a Targ wannabe. The wrong wolf killed for a crime no one committed.
But, unlike Lyanna, Sansa can lose her wolf-blood via Lady. The warg blood oddly gives Sansa an advantage in the face of freaks like Aerys and Cersei--like the rest of her siblings, she has two selves. voice and I kinda disagree on this, but things like this make me think Sansa might get out alive. Granted, she probably only gets out of this scene because of Littlefinger. But still, Sansa (and all of the Starklings) have multiple lives. . . might come in handy.
Nicely summed up. The outsider (Arya), the insider (Marge) and the middle ground (Sansa). All three point to where and how Lyanna ended it up with Rhaegar. And how Lya used her time with R and Co. to either fight it (Arya), embrace it and work it to her advantage (Marg) or to find a middle ground and attempt to make a sold, lasting peace for the realm. Regardless of which, she's without a doubt a player in the game.
I'm liking the idea of a blend. Am now hoping we actually get to see some of it.
are mine any different? Lol, I did scan read and a lot of those 'hmms' have some good thoughts behind them.
This is what I like so much about the Forensic Files process--we all just dive in. And see where things go. It may get mushy, but that's the process. And some of the things we find as a result are often more fun and interesting than anything found in most straight-up OPs.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I've been wondering about that too. Why would a sword forged from the heart of fallen star be in the hands of a southern family. Likewise with Ice, why is it in the north. It is meant to be cutesy that each blade represents it's local element or is there more to it than that. Does Ice need to go south and Dawn need to come north in order to balance things out. But it's too late for Ice to do much of anything, being in two minds and all.
We need to get inside Starfall. Is it magic in there or something?
The only other off the top of my head thing I can think of is protection. Keep the sword away from Winterfell (potentially the original source of the Fell Winter) in case things go wrong. Perhaps the Night's King story is a hint--had to throw him down when he engaged (or re-engaged) with the magics. So, might he have misused the sword, too?
That sounds just the right amount of fantasy for this fantasy series. He's breaking tropes and setting new bounds here. Uniting could just be the way to go. I can't wait to see what happens when Sansa is revealed and they march for Winterfell with the lords of the Vale behind her. Will they have found Rickon by then?
I am very much hoping Rickon is okay. Though, given the upcoming Tourney in the Vale, and all that tends to go wrong with Tourneys in these books--am starting the by the argument that something could go VERY wrong with Littlefinger's plans. . .
I'm unfamiliar with the debate. But I do like the idea that Sansa has an outlet for her wolf's blood or can now be separated from it due to Lady being gone. I'll have to give that one more thought.
I coming to learn just that Wren, it really is great to do this. So much more to be learned. And so many different opinions and angles that one person alone can't come up with.
The Power of Many Minds. . .
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Please do. I think between all of us here we can come up with some good stuff along this Seidr angle for Sansa.
Okay--some very preliminary stuff on the seidr angle for Sansa in this chapter. Obviously, the lost time at the beginning. And the castle pouring out of her like a revelation.
But--and this might be a huge stretch--her wardrobe.
Sansa left the shutters open as she dressed. It would be cold, she knew, though the Eyrie’s towers encircled the garden and protected it from the worst of the mountain winds. She donned silken smallclothes and a linen shift, and over that a warm dress of blue lambswool. Two pairs of hose for her legs, boots that laced up to her knees, heavy leather gloves, and finally a hooded cloak of soft white fox fur.
So, blue and white and fur.
Now, here's the wikipedia (source of all truth and light) translation of the description of seidkona named Trorbjorg (protected by Thor). She wore a blue mantle, trimmed with white fur. She carries a distaff--more about spinning than embroidery needles--but I'm thinking Sansa's clothes MIGHT be an echo we're hearing from the Saga of Eric the Red.
QUOTE: Now, when she came in the evening, accompanied by the man who had been sent to meet her, she was dressed in such wise that she had a blue mantle over her, with strings for the neck, and it was inlaid with gems quite down to the skirt. On her neck she had glass beads. On her head she had a black hood of lambskin, lined with ermine. A staff she had in her hand, with a knob thereon; it was ornamented with brass, and inlaid with gems round about the knob. Around her she wore a girdle of soft hair (or belt of touch wood[8]), and therein was a large skin-bag, in which she kept the talismans needful to her in her wisdom. She wore hairy calf-skin shoes on her feet, with long and strong-looking thongs to them, and great knobs of latten at the ends. On her hands she had gloves of ermine-skin, and they were white and hairy within.
And now need to read more on seidr.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Ok so you're thinking that Dawn was the sword that the NK used? Hmmm, could be. Would be an excellent reason to keep it far away from the north. On these same lines, is Dawn the original Ice that was lost centuries earlier in that murky ville that Martin calls history? Liking the idea that the it could be the source of the Fell Winter that made the Starks. Ya know what would be great? If somehow Sansa gets her hands on Dawn and brings it back to Winterfell. But that's total fanville stuff for me. Sansa finally engages with her wolfishness and holds her home as the oldest child of Ned Stark, enough with the male primogenitor.
/lunacy
First up, not lunacy.
Second, voice tends to be more along the lines of Dawn's being the Night King's blade. LmL goes this way a bit, too (if I'm remembering right).
I'm more positing that the sword has power. Don't want it in the wrong hands. So, either it originally came from the Daynes and was brought North to fight, or it was given to the Starks and sent south with the Daynes. . . I waffle on which. Point is--the sword near the Wall--they might fear the sword would be stolen or misused. In the hands of the right wielder, The Sword of the Morning, it's "safe." But without more data, this is a lot of rambling speculation.
Third: I REALLY like the idea of either Sansa or Allyria Dayne getting the sword north. And, given some of the ties to Starfall in this chapter, seems like that option is at least on the table. There's a lot of Arthurian echoes in the Daynes (so far)--and in Arthuriana, the Ladies of the Lake are tied to the keeping and bestowing of the sword. Gotta admit, I'd love it if this were the case.
Ah had forgotten about that. Yes, many things can go wrong and we have a cast of shady characters getting involve as well. Littlfinger won't join in, but his pieces for what his thinks will be a set game might not act as they should and certain losses on his side could change the tables. If LF's side loses crucial pieces though, there's always his ace it the hole in Sansa. However, as we've debated before, Sansa can, if she's learned anything through all this, take the Vale and the North without LF's help. If she connects with that wolfishness, she might be able to charm the Vale lords, and win their hearts and minds, rather than using LF's 'information' to coerce them.
Agreed--and, given HBO's choices re: Sansa, I've wondered if Book Sansa might not be making a similar speech to the Vale lords int he upcoming books.
Also, given the snow on the giant's lance, and some of the imagery in the Vale, as well as at the Hand's Tourney, seems like the Vale Tourney could have some natural disasters as well. Tourney is a great metaphor for power--rising and falling, gaining and losing prizes--and none of it ever lasts. Littlefinger seems like he's too far on top this time. Too much to lose. . . will have to see what happens.
Can you point me please? Don't know where the original discussion happened.
Not sure when we started on this, but her's part of it here: thelasthearth.freeforums.net/post/13996/threadvoice's argument starts on that subject starts about halfway through the linked post, and then we continue a bit from there.
I don't know the Saga of Eric the Red, but from the earlier site I linked to, there is this from Neil Price that I thought particularly interesting about seidkonas.
There were seiðr rituals for divination and clairvoyance; for seeking out the hidden, both in the secrets of the mind and in physical locations; for healing the sick; for bringing good luck; for controlling the weather; for calling game animals and fish. Importantly, it could also be used for the opposite of these things – to curse an individual or an enterprise; to blight the land and make it barren; to induce illness; to tell false futures and thus to set their recipients on a road to disaster; to injure, maim and kill, in domestic disputes and especially in battle.
While Sansa doesn't consciously perform any rituals, she does have ritualistic behaviours. The trace like state she goes into here with the snow castle, has some of the things listed above come out of them. She causes Petyr to show his true colours, finding out the hidden motivation and his secret. She is also very good with Sweet Robin, she calms him when no one else can, solely with her presence. And let's face it the out come of the snow castle moment is disastrous and causes both injury and death. Not to mention that this isn't the first time she's had someone die violently in her presence, Hugh died 'in battle' during the Hand's tourney. We also see her inducing illness with her refusal to be with Sweet Robin when he wants it and the fit he had over the doll.
Now I don't think any of this is done on purpose by Sansa, but it's strange that while she doesn't do anything pro-actively, the way Arya does, things tend to happen around her, and due to her. So it's in this sense that I see the volva/seidr imagery around her, while the Valkyrie imagery is around Arya.
Okay--am loving all of this. Especially the Ser Hugh moment--where she sees the Vale knight's present (horned) moons turn red one by one as the sky darkens--it's part of the imagery that makes be buy the argument that the Vale tourney might be in for a badness.
A couple of other tidbits to add to your list: Sansa knows who will win the some of bouts at the Hand's Tournament. And her affect on the Hound, singing the Mother's Song, has an almost magical power to calm him. (Then he leaves her with the cloak soiled by blood and fire--which comforts her--which is part of another argument).
As for the deadly aspects--she's been used to bring about deaths. But hasn't done so herself. And wondering what happens when she realizes she really does have the power to do that, too. Yes, Sansa and Arya both have that mystical power around them. . .
I need to keep reading.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Second, voice tends to be more along the lines of Dawn's being the Night King's blade. LmL goes this way a bit, too (if I'm remembering right).
Yup, in my thinking "Ice" was the name of the blade of the first Stark to declare himself king in the North - Night's King. Citation:
A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I "The man died well, I'll give him that," Ned said. He had a swatch of oiled leather in one hand. He ran it lightly up the greatsword as he spoke, polishing the metal to a dark glow. "I was glad for Bran's sake. You would have been proud of Bran." "I am always proud of Bran," Catelyn replied, watching the sword as he stroked it. She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.
Fittingly, Night's King reigned during the Long Night. And, it seems as though his fall coincided with the end of the Long Night and the retreat of the Others. I'm thinking the man who cast him down, and ended the darkness, became known as the Sword of the Morning. After all, Dawn ends the Night.
The details of NK's downfall are not explicit, but I think passages like Cat's above give a clue. Per Cat, the name "Ice" predates the sword Ned is stroking. What's more, she tells us the name is a "legacy from the age of heroes" ...but, legacies can be good or ill. I'm thinking this particular legacy bespeaks House Stark's less-than-honorable role in the militarization of the Others, and the downfall of the Last Hero (Bran the Builder) when he went to the dark (white) side. The Daynes, Dawn, and the "Sword of the Morning" title all seem to be a perfect opposite of this. The yin to the Stark yan. Ned's attitude and past deeds toward House Dayne seem to hint at this as well. While I love me some Ned, he looks down on a lot of other people. He's a bit of an elitist. Except, that is, when speaking of House Dayne. He does so reverently, subserviently, and without the slightest hint of a sour taste in his mouth.
I also think the lore surrounding House Dayne certainly would fit the "Age of Heroes" lore. We aren't explicitly told in the books that House Dayne ended the Long Night, nor their house words, but I think such a revelation will be forthcoming.
So, I'm thinking a proto-Dayne disarmed NK, a proto-Stark (mayhaps Brandon the Builder) who had eyes like blue stars. The proto-Dayne then claimed his Other-ish milkglass longsword. The sun rose, NK fled with the Others, and the blade became known as Dawn - because in possessing it, the Sword of the Morning ended the Long Night.
Day+Dawn=Dayne
Star+Dark=Stark
The Daynes gained their ancestral sword from a fallen star, but that star was a man. A man who had given his soul and seed to a moon woman.
LmL is obsessed with Fire, as I am obsessed with Ice. I tend to see these things in a very north-centric way. He instead places focus on Essosian myths and Ned's 400 year old Valyrian Steel blade, and names it the blade of the Last Hero and Azor Ahai.
I'm more positing that the sword has power. Don't want it in the wrong hands. So, either it originally came from the Daynes and was brought North to fight, or it was given to the Starks and sent south with the Daynes. . . I waffle on which. Point is--the sword near the Wall--they might fear the sword would be stolen or misused. In the hands of the right wielder, The Sword of the Morning, it's "safe." But without more data, this is a lot of rambling speculation.
I'm thinking the "wrong hands" are cold, and old, and the reason the sword was taken as far away from the Wall as possible is because proto-Daynes and proto-Starks knew the 13th LC/LH would want it back.
Third: I REALLY like the idea of either Sansa or Allyria Dayne getting the sword north. And, given some of the ties to Starfall in this chapter, seems like that option is at least on the table. There's a lot of Arthurian echoes in the Daynes (so far)--and in Arthuriana, the Ladies of the Lake are tied to the keeping and bestowing of the sword. Gotta admit, I'd love it if this were the case.
Me three. I'm digging this. Howland was always my guess, but I like this angle much more!
The Daynes gained their ancestral sword from a fallen star, but that star was a man. A man who had given his soul and seed to a moon woman.
Just posted this over on your warg-block thread, but the Giant's Lance--a natural structure, seated above a castle so high, some guy in the World Book insists not even a god has such a seat.
And the Lance sits up there, hovering over the Eyrie and the Gates of the Moon--really think the falling of that Lance will be like a weapon. Like the heart of a fallen star--a natural substance falling to earth to help rebalance power. Perhaps like the Lance might take out Littlefinger's power. . .
I'm thinking the "wrong hands" are cold, and old, and the reason the sword was taken as far away from the Wall as possible is because proto-Daynes and proto-Starks knew the 13th LC/LH would want it back.
Possible--though I am starting to buy some of the arguments that the Starks might have been "different" first men--rather like the Daynes. And the sword came with the Dawn empire people.
Me three. I'm digging this. Howland was always my guess, but I like this angle much more!
I like it a lot--for some reason, I like the idea of Darkstar's trying to take Dawn (I think LmL is right on this one--that Darkstar will try to take Dawn) and Allyria gets out with the blade. Perhaps a non-fatal jump into the water--to a waiting ship?
But I agree with many others: no maidens popping out of pools, their bodices heaving as they caress obviously phallic swords. . . just too silly.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I'd love to see Littlefinger get "tournied". Wasnt there a thread about how tournaments always signaled a power change, especially if boar is served? Could Alayne be named QoLaB, and unmasked as Sansa? It will be interesting to see if that's how she gets back to Winterfell with an army.
but the Giant's Lance--a natural structure, seated above a castle so high, some guy in the World Book insists not even a god has such a seat.
And the Lance sits up there, hovering over the Eyrie and the Gates of the Moon--really think the falling of that Lance will be like a weapon. Like the heart of a fallen star--a natural substance falling to earth to help rebalance power. Perhaps like the Lance might take out Littlefinger's power. . .
It would certainly empower the clans in the Mountains of the Moon. Mayhaps Sansa will lead them, a pack of fellow First Men. She is, after all, the "wife" of the halfman who recently armed them. If she were to kill little Lord Arryn herself, I can't help but think they would admire that.
Possible--though I am starting to buy some of the arguments that the Starks might have been "different" first men--rather like the Daynes. And the sword came with the Dawn empire people.
I'm all for the idea that Starks and Daynes are unique, and the Daynes in particular seem likely descended from GEotD people. But we've only seen a sword like Arthur's in one other place, and it wasn't in Essos. :::
I like it a lot--for some reason, I like the idea of Darkstar's trying to take Dawn (I think LmL is right on this one--that Darkstar will try to take Dawn) and Allyria gets out with the blade. Perhaps a non-fatal jump into the water--to a waiting ship?
I'd love to see Littlefinger get "tournied". Wasnt there a thread about how tournaments always signaled a power change, especially if boar is served? Could Alayne be named QoLaB, and unmasked as Sansa? It will be interesting to see if that's how she gets back to Winterfell with an army.
Can't help but wonder if LF will live throughout the series only because he is so easy to hate. Cersei as well. I don't think we'll be seeing any mass graves in ASOIAF for evildoers.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
It would certainly empower the clans in the Mountains of the Moon. Mayhaps Sansa will lead them, a pack of fellow First Men. She is, after all, the "wife" of the halfman who recently armed them. If she were to kill little Lord Arryn herself, I can't help but think they would admire that.
Am now imagining careful, courteous Sansa having lemon cakes and tea with Shagga and TImmet.
The hill clans in the north's devotion to the Starks is--amazing. Especially their devotion to Ned. Could possibly imagine the Mountain Clans having a softer version of that for Tyrion--though how do they feel about being shunted out of the city after his fall?
Still--the idea that Sansa, charmer of the ultimate burned man warrior, could charm these Burned Men--gotta admit, I'd love to see that. If you're feeling up to it (hoping you feel better soon), you should check out sweetsunray's blog on the subject. "On the Trail of the Red Stallion." sweeticeandfiresunray.wordpress.com/2015/11/16/the-trail-of-the-red-stallion-iii/ She makes some connections I never even came close to thinking about.
I'd love to see Littlefinger get "tournied". Wasnt there a thread about how tournaments always signaled a power change, especially if boar is served? Could Alayne be named QoLaB, and unmasked as Sansa? It will be interesting to see if that's how she gets back to Winterfell with an army.
I haven't seen that thread. But the metaphor seems apt. And, given the imagery of the giant's lance and too much snow and the mountain clans with new-found steel--I'm thinking there's a chance both humans and nature could intervene to throw down Littlefinger. He planned on storing up food and power. He never counted on dealing with the natural magic of Westeros.
Can't help but wonder if LF will live throughout the series only because he is so easy to hate. Cersei as well. I don't think we'll be seeing any mass graves in ASOIAF for evildoers.
I could see Littlefinger having to flee at some point. But I still think he's going down in the face of winter--one way or another.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Hey all! Some really great ideas the past couple of pages. Unfortunately, I'm still having a hard time making my mind wrap around much of anything substantial. My hypoxic brain just isn't quite keeping up. Hopefully, I might be able to think better soon to add some replies or thoughts of my own. I think that @serduncan is onto something with Sansa and the weaving of destiny. I have a strong urge to tie this into SlyWren's idea of Sansa the singer. My mind has tried to connect the ideas multiple times the past several months but I can't quite get there. Maybe they are not related, but both ideas seem so intrinsically linked with Sansa.
@morrigansraven, I think that I must have read the same idea that you did. I think that it was based on the boar. It wasn't a bad theory, but I have no idea where I read it.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Here's the next few bits in case anyone else has more energy than I do.
“You may not.”Her aunt’s breath smelled of wine. “If you were anyone else, I would banish you. Send you down to Lord Nestor at the Gates of the Moon, or back to the Fingers. How would you like to spend your life on that bleak shore, surrounded by slatterns and sheep pellets? That was what my father meant for Petyr. Everyone thought it was because of that stupid duel with Brandon Stark, but that wasn’t so. Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother, but it was Petyr I was meant for. I am telling you all this so you will understand how much we love each other, how long we have suffered and dreamed of one another. We made a baby together, a precious little baby.”Lysa put her hands flat against her belly, as if the child was still there. “When they stole him from me, I made a promise to myself that I would never let it happen again. Jon wished to send my sweet Robert to Dragonstone, and that sot of a king would have given him to Cersei Lannister, but I never let them …no more than I’ll let you steal my Petyr Littlefinger. Do you hear me, Alayne or Sansa or whatever you call yourself? Do you hear what I am telling you?”
“Yes. I swear, I won’t ever kiss him again, or …or entice him.”Sansa thought that was what her aunt wanted to hear. “So you admit it now? It was you, just as I thought. You are as wanton as your mother.”Lysa grabbed her by the wrist. “Come with me now. There is something I want to show you.”
“You’re hurting me.” Sansa squirmed. “Please, Aunt Lysa, I haven’t done anything. I swear it.” Her aunt ignored her protests. “Marillion!” she shouted. “I need you, Marillion! I need you!” The singer had remained discreetly in the rear of the hall, but at Lady Arryn’s shout he came at once. “My lady?”“Play us a song. Play ‘The False and the Fair.’” Marillion’s fingers brushed the strings. “ The lord he came a-riding upon a rainy day, hey-nonny, hey-nonny, hey-nonny-hey …”
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?