voice, most of what I've picked up about the southwest comes from Tony Hillerman novels, so please forgive me if I'm wrong. Is the belief of multiple worlds & the escape of humanity from them a common theme throughout the southwest, or is that peculiar to the Navaho? Because that does seem to be where the backstory here is coming from.
voice, most of what I've picked up about the southwest comes from Tony Hillerman novels, so please forgive me if I'm wrong. Is the belief of multiple worlds & the escape of humanity from them a common theme throughout the southwest, or is that peculiar to the Navaho? Because that does seem to be where the backstory here is coming from.
It's common throughout, though each tribe has very unique interpretations. I'm glad you're familiar with the Navajo version, as it is a good one! But yes, it is a common motif all over the southwest, and I use that term very broadly. It extends from Texas to California and southward into Mexico. Tales of a long darkness that knew no end, and of multiple heroes that sought to return the light, and did.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
A couple of thoughts on this... If these words come from the first days of the Nights Watch, then what was the plan? How did they expect to bring the dawn? By the end of the LN I could see this statement of bringing the dawn ringing true with the Battle for the Dawn: (Supposedly) The Night's Watch rode out and drove the cold ones away at the END of the Long Night.
Good point--so, could the Night's Watch have cropped up/been organized from an existing watch? Then the unifying vow created--every individual on his Wall part of one sword, one shield (now have Malala Yousafzai in my head--one voice!), all fighting for one cause vs. petty territorial squabbles? They say this to remind them of what brought the dawn.
I'm not so "meh"--really think this is about waking the dead. The Stark Kings in Winterfell with swords at the ready on their knees. And all the barrows. . . the true dead fighting the undead. That would be very cool.
How did the Watch lose their purpose when the "I ams" begin with this. Not to burn against the wildlings, to burn against the cold. This line sounds like it could have come in to use at any time circa Long Night.
Yes--am still stuck on thinking this is one reason to get the Watch away from the Nighfort. That part of the vow makes the Watch the protector. Vs. just basic guarders of territory for the Targ dynasty. The speed with which knowledge of the Gate is lost is staggering (though perhaps not when you look at how much history people keep having to re-learn in an age with print).
I am the light that brings the dawn is the one line that really sticks out. That def sounds like a post war addition. The black gate does seem very old and I agree that the Night Fort probably predates the Wall. I don't think the Night's Watch vow is the only key to the door.
Just specualtion, of course.
OOH! Had not thought of that. Could the Black Gate have been re-purposed re: the Wall's being built?
What identity would have been needed to cross it before, I wonder? I'm not sold on its predating the Wall--seems like the Nightfort could have been the original castle. And, when the Watch moved to the Wall, its precedence diminished. But before the Watch was entirely at the Wall--the Nightfort could have been Headquarters. Or something.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
In the southwest we have a song about this precise sort of thing, actually, and it ties into my belief that GRRM ripped off a ton of tribal lore. The song is sung during a darkness that lasted so long people forgot what dawn was like...
"Dawn, my heart forgot such a time, but shall seek it" "I face where the sun should rise" "I face where the sun should set" "Dawn, my heart forgot such a time, but shall seek it"
It's but one song of dozens sung in sequence, but this one colors my view of the vows quite a bit. A long night is another common motif in southwestern native lore, as are heroes who sought to bring the light.
First--that is just beautiful.
Second--fits with all the dark nights of the soul Martin puts his characters through. Forgetting what light/hope/joy are. But having faith to seek it. "Jon allows himself to hope"--then sees the Sword of the Morning.
So, the vow as a statement not only of identity but also of faith--makes sense.
"Who are you?" the door asked, and the well whispered, "Who-who-who-who-who-who-who." "I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men." "Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.
1. The tear--anyone got any theories on that? At present, I'm just befuddled.
2. The gaping mouth--reminds me of the mouth of hell--but this is different. And that the mouth obscure all the rest--the word is most important? Not sure what to do here. . . but it seems like it means something. Especially with that tear.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
In the southwest we have a song about this precise sort of thing, actually, and it ties into my belief that GRRM ripped off a ton of tribal lore. The song is sung during a darkness that lasted so long people forgot what dawn was like...
"Dawn, my heart forgot such a time, but shall seek it" "I face where the sun should rise" "I face where the sun should set" "Dawn, my heart forgot such a time, but shall seek it"
It's but one song of dozens sung in sequence, but this one colors my view of the vows quite a bit. A long night is another common motif in southwestern native lore, as are heroes who sought to bring the light.
First--that is just beautiful.
I think so too :::
I'll see if I can upload the song. It's a good one.
Second--fits with all the dark nights of the soul Martin puts his characters through. Forgetting what light/hope/joy are. But having faith to seek it. "Jon allows himself to hope"--then sees the Sword of the Morning.
So, the vow as a statement not only of identity but also of faith--makes sense.
Yup, though I would argue the fidelity, in terms of titles, sons, glory, etc came later. But yes, I'm thinking this is what the Night's Watch lost track of over the last 300 years, with as much "help" as possible from the Dragon kings and queens - the true Faith of their order as an old gods institution, rather than a Sevenist one.
1. The tear--anyone got any theories on that? At present, I'm just befuddled.
2. The gaping mouth--reminds me of the mouth of hell--but this is different. And that the mouth obscure all the rest--the word is most important? Not sure what to do here. . . but it seems like it means something. Especially with that tear.
1. The warm tear reminds me of Winterfell's heart tree, that grows from a hot spring.
2. The gaping mouth reminds me again of the heart tree's pool. There are other interesting mouths though...the Dragon skulls...the HotU's door...
The gateway to Hell certainly fits, considering the half-forgotten demons on the Other side.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
You enter the mouth, you sacrifice yourself, become "food" for your gods?
Dunno why, reminds me of the ritual when I was claimed by my Goddess. Sam, Bran, they all belong to the old gods. They called them, and have been answered, claimed.
I remember that convo, @flagons. To me it makes sense because Monster is born to be a sacrifice. And Jojen or Hodor and Meera are the "price" for Sam and Gilly. That still leaves one for the Gods to eat. Jojen paste, anyone?
Just noticed that I am Davos now, no longer Cersei. So I can't be evil anymore: ::horseshit::
Yup, though I would argue the fidelity, in terms of titles, sons, glory, etc came later. But yes, I'm thinking this is what the Night's Watch lost track of over the last 300 years, with as much "help" as possible from the Dragon kings and queens - the true Faith of their order as an old gods institution, rather than a Sevenist one.
A bit ironic--the Faith of the Seven just focuses on human attributes. The Old Gods are about remembering the past and tapping into nature magics (from what I can gather). Seems like they aren't really counter to each other.
But they are counter to Targ centralization. Want everyone to bow to the dragons, not focus on ancestors and tied together by common humanity.
1. The warm tear reminds me of Winterfell's heart tree, that grows from a hot spring.
2. The gaping mouth reminds me again of the heart tree's pool. There are other interesting mouths though...the Dragon skulls...the HotU's door...
The gateway to Hell certainly fits, considering the half-forgotten demons on the Other side.
Agree on the hot spring--also salty, though. I've seen some speculation that the Wall has salt water in it and that's why Others can't cross. Not at all sure on that.
Still, am wondering if it's a mourning--a loss. Or a tear of gladness? Not sure. If it is a gateway to hell--the special hell reserved for Starks? And if Bran goes in at the Gate--willingly--can he then get back out? Does this mean Sam can cross back and forth? And is this because Coldhands is just such a good guy or because Sam killed Puddles? Like an initiation? hmm
In my mind the Night Fort was there before the wall. The Black Gate... possibly. The way I can see it existing before the Wall is as a secret tunnel for moving about. Under the walls of the original fort for purposes of any sort. If I knew where the other side of the gate led to then I would feel more confident with an answer. The most probable use for the Gate is to pass under the Wall. The Gate asks "who are you" and an answer is given to pass. But who's to say there is only one answer that the Gate will accept? Could the cotf sing their songs (Leaf?!) to pass? I think so. Could the horn of winter, aka horn of Joramun blast a sweet note to bypass the wall? Maybe. It's an idea I have rattled around a few times.
As for as repurposing goes, I can see that. The face in the Gate is blind. Was it always blind? Maybe the gate could use a visual check instead of a verbal at some time in the past. Until it became blind. Just throwing it out there.
So, I think the NW oath is pieced together, but the declaration that Sam uses to pass the gate (possibly a conglomerate itself) is not necessarily the only "password."
1. Agreed--seems like a passage for moving about. Like the passages under the Red Keep?
2. And agree on the passwords. The Horn of Joramun would make some sense. "Bringing down the Wall" as in "breeching its defenses." Getting through the Gate. works. Had not thought about the blindness--makes some sense. The sound, the words as having power in the darkness. Like Mojo thread re: the power of sound. And word. Or might just be a nod to blind justice. Or blind prophets. The blind as seeing more.
You enter the mouth, you sacrifice yourself, become "food" for your gods?
Dunno why, reminds me of the ritual when I was claimed by my Goddess. Sam, Bran, they all belong to the old gods. They called them, and have been answered, claimed.
I like it. After passing through, Bran did go directly to the house of the holies, so to say. A little off to the side is the "exchange." It's been kicked around Heresy that Bran crossed over to the other side while the "Monster" crossed to the realm of men. A little swap made possible by Coldhands. A man of the watch with the words and who knows a way to open the Gate but shall not pass.
Hmm--an exchange. That makes my "I want Bran to get home!!" part of my brain go nuts. But the idea of a magical exchange makes some sense. Just not sure how it all works.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Right. Not sure that Monster has a further role to play. Probable, I call it. Then again, the boy was exchanged again for Mance's son and he is still at the Wall instead of moving on south. Could there be a third swap in store for the boy? Three is a magic number. Yeah it is.
Yes--am wondering if that kid is going to get out alive, though. Jon thinks about how Gilly will curse him if something happens to monster. And with all that could happen at the Wall with Jon out of commission--not looking good for Baby Monster.
I don't know if Bran will come back. I'm thinking not, but it would be cool if I was wrong. Haha. If he could make it back through the Wall I think he could use his own "password."
And that's the thing about a magic weirwood gate. Greenseers should be able to communicate and use something like the Gate.
Am wondering if the "who are you" question can have more than one answer. Like the caterpillar in Alice in Wonderland--if Bran knows who he is, what his role is, would that open the gate? Although that might be the same role as the oath that opened the gate. . .
"Magic weirwood gate"--am reminded again of the wierwood moon door at the Eyris. Literally a door to death. Greenseers can communicate with the dead--or at least see them. So, a greenseer communicating with a door/portal that crosses death and life--makes sense.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
A bit ironic--the Faith of the Seven just focuses on human attributes. The Old Gods are about remembering the past and tapping into nature magics (from what I can gather). Seems like they aren't really counter to each other.
But they are counter to Targ centralization. Want everyone to bow to the dragons, not focus on ancestors and tied together by common humanity.
Agreed. I don't think the Seven and the Old are opposed to one another, but I do think the Seven provides a nice, controllable, distraction from the Old Powers that Targaryens would have wanted to encourage.
Agree on the hot spring--also salty, though. I've seen some speculation that the Wall has salt water in it and that's why Others can't cross. Not at all sure on that.
Still, am wondering if it's a mourning--a loss. Or a tear of gladness?
Tears of joy, tears of despair... is there a difference, if only death can pay for life?
Not sure. If it is a gateway to hell--the special hell reserved for Starks? And if Bran goes in at the Gate--willingly--can he then get back out? Does this mean Sam can cross back and forth? And is this because Coldhands is just such a good guy or because Sam killed Puddles? Like an initiation? hmm
No idea, but cool thoughts. Mayhaps this is how CH was created? Because he passed through the Black Gate?
I don't think so, but it's a cool path to wander along. Sam does seem to be able to go back and forth at will, without repercussion, but he was named in the light of the Seven.... And I have a feeling "Starks" were named in another light... or lack thereof.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
No idea, but cool thoughts. Mayhaps this is how CH was created? Because he passed through the Black Gate?
I don't think so, but it's a cool path to wander along. Sam does seem to be able to go back and forth at will, without repercussion, but he was named in the light of the Seven.... And I have a feeling "Starks" were named in another light... or lack thereof.
Yes--I don't hunk that's how CH was "made" either. But perhaps only the truly living can go through the Gate. IE: the wights at the Wall were brought in. Like demons carried over the threshold. Perhaps the "warding" of the Gate is even stronger.
Perhaps the Faith makes a difference. But Sam pledged himself to the old gods when he took his oath. And with the Gate opening at his self identification--not sure the Faith is a factor.
Right. Not sure that Monster has a further role to play. Probable, I call it. Then again, the boy was exchanged again for Mance's son and he is still at the Wall instead of moving on south. Could there be a third swap in store for the boy? Three is a magic number. Yeah it is.
Yes--naming the kid "Monster" is worse than anything any Hollywood starlet could come up with for a kid. Seems to doom him. Still not sure how it would works. Still mulling.
I don't know if Bran will come back. I'm thinking not, but it would be cool if I was wrong. Haha. If he could make it back through the Wall I think he could use his own "password."
And that's the thing about a magic weirwood gate. Greenseers should be able to communicate and use something like the Gate.
Okay--now am thinking that should have been obvious and am feeling stupid.. The greenseers should be able to use passages like the Gate. It's weirwood, after all.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
But if it is a "death pays for life," does the Wall weep for Sam as well? Is Sam a kind of sacrifice?
Well, mayhaps, but the Wall has been weeping ever since the AGoT Prologue. Mayhaps it weeps for the weakness of the Watch? Mayhaps it weeps until Winter? Mayhaps it weeps because it is connected to a saltwater spring?
In any case, I can't help but be struck by the idea that the Black Gate seems like a strong candidate for the chink in the Wall of Ice. Might a blue flower grow from those salty tears and fill the air with sweetness? Has it been growing all along?
What if the Night's Queen was a Stark? She would be a really cool blue flower. Like really, really cool.
Yes--I don't hunk that's how CH was "made" either. But perhaps only the truly living can go through the Gate. IE: the wights at the Wall were brought in. Like demons carried over the threshold. Perhaps the "warding" of the Gate is even stronger.
Agreed, but to Flagons point, there's no telling what all forms of life that gate might permit passage. I'm inclined to think Leaf used it, and that it is a cotf brand of construction. Coldhands could not enter Leaf's hollow either.
Perhaps the Faith makes a difference. But Sam pledged himself to the old gods when he took his oath. And with the Gate opening at his self identification--not sure the Faith is a factor.
Agreed again. I don't think Faith negates/permits passage. I was only musing on the possibility that it could be more significant for a Stark named "Stark" to pass through it, rather than a non-Stark "Tarly" named in the light of the Seven.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
In any case, I can't help but be struck by the idea that the Black Gate seems like a strong candidate for the chink in the Wall of Ice. Might a blue flower grow from those salty tears and fill the air with sweetness? Has it been growing all along?
Or representative of what has been growing all along? Or of what could fill the chink?
Agreed, but to Flagons point, there's no telling what all forms of life that gate might permit passage. I'm inclined to think Leaf used it, and that it is a cotf brand of construction. Coldhands could not enter Leaf's hollow either.
Agreed--through in the weirwood and it makes lots of sense. Is this how the Last Hero got to and from wherever he went for help?
Well, mayhaps, but the Wall has been weeping ever since the AGoT Prologue. Mayhaps it weeps for the weakness of the Watch? Mayhaps it weeps until Winter? Mayhaps it weeps because it is connected to a saltwater spring?
Yes--it's been asked before, but makes me think that the Watch is a blessing and a curse. Especially a Watch permanently garrisoned in one place. A rotating force seems safer and saner for all concerned. Plus--the making of above ground gates: basic physics: the Wall wouldn't melt/weep as easily if it were solid all the way through.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
And, if she was a Stark, this could be one arcane source of the accursed nature of incest...as Old Nan names the 13th (Hero) Lord Commander a Stark as well.
Agreed--through in the weirwood and it makes lots of sense. Is this how the Last Hero got to and from wherever he went for help?
Seems partially likely to me. I'm thinking the 13th Hero made two, vastly different, pilgrimages.
The first was into the frozen dead lands the armies of men had lost. I'm thinking this was the present day "North" and that the aid he gained was from the cotf living in what is now the hallowed ground of Winterfell's crypts.
The second was from atop his construction project, building the Wall. I'm thinking that from that vantage point, holding a powerful sword the Others could (kneel to) not stand against, he glimpsed a woman with skin as pale as the moon and eyes like blue stars. He then ventured into the frozen/dead woman herself, and gave away his soul -- becoming something other by night, but remaining the 13th (Hero) Lord Commander by day.
Yes--it's been asked before, but makes me think that the Watch is a blessing and a curse. Especially a Watch permanently garrisoned in one place. A rotating force seems safer and saner for all concerned. Plus--the making of above ground gates: basic physics: the Wall wouldn't melt/weep as easily if it were solid all the way through.
Agreed. And I have a feeling the "first builders" would have slapped new recruits silly if they ever suggested tunneling through the ice, and gated each side with oak and iron. The Black Gate was The Gate.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
And, if she was a Stark, this could be one arcane source of the accursed nature of incest...as Old Nan names the 13th (Hero) Lord Commander a Stark as well.
And MAYBE a tie to the Wildling statement that Craster bears a heavy curse?
Seems partially likely to me. I'm thinking the 13th Hero made two, vastly different, pilgrimages.
The first was into the frozen dead lands the armies of men had lost. I'm thinking this was the present day "North" and that the aid he gained was from the cotf living in what is now the hallowed ground of Winterfell's crypts.
The second was from atop his construction project, building the Wall. I'm thinking that from that vantage point, holding a powerful sword the Others could (kneel to) not stand against, he glimpsed a woman with skin as pale as the moon and eyes like blue stars. He then ventured into the frozen/dead woman herself, and gave away his soul -- becoming something other by night, but remaining the 13th (Hero) Lord Commander by day.
Hadn't thought of them as both being "pilgrimages."
But they are--to different "faiths." The first, back to the faith of keeping faith with the Children and the earth and the trees--with all their memories. The second: embracing the cold gods. Perhaps with a literal embrace.
On the "something other by night"--am wondering if that might also be a reference to the Night's Watch Vows: "Night gathers and now my watch begins." At night, the Watch is the sword and shield and fire. But if the Night's King has embraced another purpose, he's no longer the watch. He's a danger.
Agreed. And I have a feeling the "first builders" would have slapped new recruits silly if they ever suggested tunneling through the ice, and gated each side with oak and iron. The Black Gate was The Gate.
Have wondered about the iron cage on the winch and the gates. Obviously it may have stayed in place due to tradition. And expense. But am wondering if they also tie back to Nan's story of Others' hating iron.
And the oak--when Ned hears of Bran's recovery, he takes the girls to the King's Landing godswood. No weirwood, but they pray to an oak instead. Sansa dreams of Bran. So, oak is strong and maybe even sacred.
But it is interesting they'd use iron, but not weirwood. . . .
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.