In Cersei's case, it is a reflection of the fact that Cersei is in love with Cersei. Do you think that is an aspect of Lyanna that we are missing?
Honestly, we know very little about Lyanna! We know that Ned loved her, that Robert loved her, that she was fond of flowers-"blue roses" and that she has died. We know that she cried when Rhaegar sang at Harrenhal, and that she was fierce in defending Howland Reed against those nasty squires at Harrenhal. Even some of that comes through a story Meera tells that her father tells, so it is from an unreliable narrator source because we didn't actually see any of that business at Harrenhal with Lyanna! Almost anything is possible, really!
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
In Cersei's case, it is a reflection of the fact that Cersei is in love with Cersei. Do you think that is an aspect of Lyanna that we are missing?
Honestly, we know very little about Lyanna! We know that Ned loved her, that Robert loved her, that she was fond of flowers-"blue roses" and that she has died. We know that she cried when Rhaegar sang at Harrenhal, and that she was fierce in defending Howland Reed against those nasty squires at Harrenhal. Even some of that comes through a story Meera tells that her father tells, so it is from an unreliable narrator source because we didn't actually see any of that business at Harrenhal with Lyanna! Almost anything is possible, really!
I want to correct myself a bit here. I don't mean to imply that Cersei and Lyanna are carbon copies of each other, therefore if Cersei is vain and vindictive, then Lyanna must have been as well. I don't see that with Ned/Jaime at all, and doubt it is the same with Lyanna/Cersei. People can have far different intent and still end up with similar outcomes, and I think that is something that GRRM plays with.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
which if course leads us to believing "the right blood should rule".
not necessarily: the right blood gives advantages (eg dragonlord or greenseer) but the individuals ultimately own their choices.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Just rereading peoples comments and pondering this Starkcest theory a bit more. I can't get this idea out of my head, and I feel it does have potential that some other theories fall short on.
This led me to wonder, could Lord Rickard have done something similar? We really don't know that much about him and his character other than his "Southern Ambitions." In my mind, it could make some sense of the Harrenhall Crowning as well. It could very well have been a veiled threat to the Starks that it was known that Lyanna was no longer a maiden. Make a move against us and your allies will know. Robert wouldn't like that too much would he? Although thinking about it, Benjen could fit that scenario as well. Especially if you consider the scene of Lady being sentenced to die. It's the wrong wolf, but like Aerys, Cersei doesn't care. A wolf is a wolf. It seems to imply that Brandon, at least, was not the wolf that they wanted. Which wolf was?
Rickard is an unknown for us. The text doesn't really tell us much about him, besides he died in a pretty horrible way after trying to save his son's life. I am not sure, but this comment made me think that according to our knowledge of the Rebellion, it was Aerys demanding Ned and Robert's heads that caused Jon Arryn to call his banners. Now, I am not sure that is what really happened, but that is the perception, and if is true, why did Aerys demand Ned's head? If he wanted to wipe out all the Starks, he should have asked for Benjen's head, too! So why just Neds? Aerys knew, or felt he knew something! Or he was just flat crazypants mad!
I will say, the whole story about demanding Ned and Roberts head is a bit off, because, while the Starks had rattled Aerys, the Baratheon's had done nothing, as far as we know. It does seem likely it is not the truth, or the whole truth, but it was what was needed to fan the flames of rebellion.
First lets start with the things underneath the words of the characters and their character themselves; namely the incest angle.This begins by questioning if the Starks held to their beliefs or were hyprocritical to the point at engaging in this and they don't strike me as that.
Bastards were common enough, but incest was a monstrous sin to both old gods and new, and the children of such wickedness were named abominations in sept and godswood alike
So we see that incest was an abominable sin to the Old gods as well;so would the nobles of the household engage in such an act thus angering the gods they hold dear.
We get Ygritte telling us that incest is not approved of by Wildlings, but I wonder if that is a view only shared by her villiage/tribe, or some wildlings but not all. I am sure there is much complexity to the different wildling peoples, and some besides Craster might practice incest.
I wonder if many of the first men didn't practice incest, as well as polygamy and the lords right to the first night. I think the book hints that the Boltons and Umbers still practice the lords right to the first night. I think many things have changed over the years, because of the Andals, the Rhoynar, the Targaryens, etc, but I wonder if these things were not much more commonly practiced than we know.
If all Starks are one-dimensional good guys, that would be a problem. I think there's enough evidence that GRRM thinks that even Starks can fall to base emotion that it's just not a very big issue. It would be a shock, yes, but then that's really not a problem either. GRRM hardly shies away from undermining our assumptions.
This is so correct. GRRM not only wants to shock his audience, he enjoys it. And he hurts us, and I think he enjoys that too. And we know he doesn't feel there are black and white characters, just fifty million shades of grey (and grey is a Stark color). I think he would have no problem with making even the best of the best stumble a time or two.
I think GRRM is toying with incest throughout the entire series. And really, he's planned this from the start, if you go back to the 1993 letter in which Arya and Jon have the sibling hots for each other.
He has been toying with incest, as you mentioned in our post, it pops up more than a couple times. Somethings have changed from that letter about the series that was written in 1993, but maybe he changed the Jon, Arya, Tyrion incest/love triangle, to Stark brother (my money is on Ned), Lyanna, and some other man love triangle, and put it in the past and not the present. It is hard to say how much his initial idea has changed and developed but I think most anything is possible.
I wonder if there's more to the Bael The Bard story than we know. Did Bael rescue rather than steal the daughter? Was the baby born in the crypts one of incest? Is the blue rose a symbol for such things in the north?
Bael's son becomes the Stark in the North. Could it be he was accepted as such because he was actually a Stark?
Good insight. I have also been thinking of the Bael the bard story. Why is it not told at Winterfell? Old Nan must certainly have known this tale. If she didn't tell it, maybe it was because she was forbidden too. We know that Ned has shut down some Ashara Dayne talk in the past, maybe he he shut this story down too. No one talked of Harrenhall, either, and that is for a reason. The Bael story itself is not really so terrible, although rape and kinslaying are not great things. But if that baby was born of incest, because Bael was either the Stark maids brother, or if her own father got a child on her, that would be very interesting. Not so very flattering a story, if that is the case, and maybe a reason not to tell it freely in the great hall at Winterfell.
I think there is more to that Bael the Bard story that has yet to be revealed, and I think it will give us some very important answers, or at least I hope so.
You'll find no lack of sick perversion in this series. One could say that is its crowning achievement: it makes us not only accept such perversions, but at times, we even sympathize with them (Monster-Joff vs Kind Tommen, Monster Viserys vs Beautiful Dany, Monster Cersei vs Witty Tyrion).
Hahaha! Yes! Bring on the sick perversions! We really do grow accustomed to them, and they do seem almost normal. Look, Joffrey was an ass, but Myrcella and Tommen are kind, decentish kids. It wasn't the incest that made Joffrey a dick, it was the fact that Tywin and Cersei are sociopaths, and he got that gene! As far as sympathizing or empathizing with these characters, GRRM is a genious. If we could get into the Mountain that Rides head, we might find some empathy for him as well. GRRM is that good!
Also, Ned leaves out Benjen entirely in his "wolf blood" description, yet we know Benjen joined the Night's Watch for some reason...
Ned doesn't describe himself as wolfblooded either, but I see it the text. So certainly Benjen may be that way as well, but he and Ned are just less wolfish than Brandon and Lyanna.
The fact that we don't know why Benjen went to the wall is interesting, and I am sure it has a part to play in figuring out some of the mystery. I have often blamed it on Catelyn, but I blame a lot on her, so maybe that is unfair. Seeing how smoothly she and Luwin hoodwinked Neddard into allowing Jonno to go to the wall, makes me think, it was not the first time they practiced that trick. I could see her wanting Benjen gone, since if he got married and had children, they could someday challenge for the rule of Winterfell (and the old gods and the new are aware that Catelyn didn't want any challenge to her childrens right to Winterfell).
But maybe Benjen did get "wolfish" with his sister. In that Catelyn II chapter, Ned does say that he would speak to Benjen about Jon going to the wall before he talked to Jon about it. Maybe it was a seeking permission kind of thing, if Benjen is Jon's father? If this theory pans out, I have Ned on my radar, though, and not Benjen.
"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."
Obviously the written word can be at disadvantage because it can lack emphasis in the right places. What if we change it ever so slightly in the above passage? It could totally change the meaning.
For example: "Robert will never keep to one bed." Emphasis could imply, "...so why should I?"
Lyanna is having a nighttime conversation with Ned about the man she is now to marry. Perhaps this is actually a discussion about whether or not LYANNA would be able to continue with an illicit relationship - instead of using Robert's womanizing as an impediment to THEIR marriage, what if she's using it as justification to carry on her own affair, even incestually with one of her brothers? It's exactly what Cersei did....she left Robert to be distracted by his whores so she could carry on with Jaime unimpeded. Robert not keeping to one bed, his nature not changing, was what allowed the twincest to go forward.
Maybe a stretch and/or a completely wrong reinterpretation, but.....who knows?
This convo between Ned and Lyanna does have a bit of a lovers feel to it, but I can't tell you why it strikes me that way. It just does. It is certainly intimate, but that doesn't necessarily mean lovers. I like your explanation, though. I could see a conversation going just like you describe, and it does very much mirror Jaime and Cersei, which I think is important if this theory works out.
This isn't anything new for GRRM the Targs did it all the time,Jamie and Cersie have been at it for years so it is well present in the story.The point is Given the beliefs of the Starks and Northen people on a whole when it comes to incest is it something they would have engaged in? Do we get a hint of that from any of them?
We get a few idea's that it is not approved of in general, and Ygritte and Catelyn do not approve. But ...
We really don't get many peoples perception that incest is bad. We have our own feelings about it and incest is certainly not approved of in our culture, and I think we as the reader do put our own feelings about right and wrong and what is accepted or not accepted into the story. But I have learned to look at this world as a fantasy realm created by GRRM and our rules do not apply!
We know what the standard view of incest is -- Catelyn tells us. We do not know that view was shared by Lyanna, Benjen or Brandon, because we never heard. Is it shared by Ned? It seems that when Ned is faced with the incest of Cersei and Jaime, his reaction is not to be appalled and disgusted, but to change his view of them from hate to pity, as if he sees their incestuous relationship not as being something to despise but instead a tragedy.
Actually there is a comment that suggests it hits him personally. "Ned felt sick". Is that because of the disgust you suggest he would feel about their incest, because "these people despise incest"? If so, wouldn't we expect to see a more negative view of her from Ned? Isn't it odd, if he's just realised that she is something he despises on top of being an evil Lannister, that he's not demonstrating how much he despises her? Instead, he's almost sympathetic. He touches her cheek gently, offers her sympathy for Robert striking her. When she admits to having Jaime as a lover, he doesn't display disgust or surprise, he calmly asks her to confirm that she and Jaime were responsible for Bran's fall. He no longer hates her, he says he feels pity for her.
The first several times I read this scene in the Godswood (brilliant scene, BTW), I was always struck by the "Ned felt sick" line. It's vague, very very vague. If he feels sick toward Cersei, he certainly does not express that, as you have above described. So why did Ned feel sick? Because it a reflection of his past and his guilt's? Maybe ...
I absolutely agree that Jon's appearance in itself is not enough to prove a thing. Of course this is not case proven, as I said in the essay. However, we should consider the context. There are two characters, Jon and Joff, who are repeatedly contrasted with each other, yet turn out to be more similar than we realised (the golden prince vs. the dark bastard, yet it turns out the golden prince is a bastard too). For both characters, there is a significant focus on their appearance. In the case of Jon, his appearance is repeatedly brought up in relation to his parentage. In the case of Joff, his appearance is also brought up in relation to his parentage and specifically in discovering that he is a child of an incestuous relationship.
There is unquestionably a clear parallel going on here. The only question is how far the parallel goes. Is it simply to show that Jon's parentage is, like Joff's, not what we thought? Or is it more specific than that? If Jon is a child of incest it's the latter, if not then the former. I don't really see how this can even be questioned, unless you believe that Jon is Ned's son and all the dozens of clues that there's something up with Jon's parentage is one massive red herring.
On the Eddard+Wylla=Jon thread by markg171 , there are many great points to show us how much Jon is like Ned, both in looks and personality. I do not think that is a mistake. It is very deliberate on GRRM's part. And I think most readers see it on some level, but then we get confused is because of the many things in Jon's story that also bring our attention to Lyanna, but we don't want to process "well, if Jon is so like Ned, but there are many hints that Lyanna is Jon's mother, but that would mean ... well ... never mind ... it must be something else" is how our minds shy away. I can't say what the answer is but Ned/Jon parallels are heavy in the text.
You know, after reading this again...why are Brandon's and Lyanna's statues together again? This was where she wanted to be...with Brandon forevermore, maybe?
I think the Brandon and Lyanna's statues are on either side of Rickard, so they are not aside each other in the crypts.
The thing is though that Brandon's the one Stark I'm pretty confident isn't Jon's baby daddy.
Is this based on gut instinct, or the timeline? I think Brandon is not the answer, as well. Several people think it has to be Benjen. My thought is all based on gut instinct and pitching the timeline constraint right out the window, much like Jaime did with Bran. If this theory pans out, my money is on Ned, the quiet wolf!
Which reminds me of the fact that Ned is awfully, awfully close to his sister that he rarely saw. I mean, if he went to the Vale at 8, Lyanna would have been, what 4? 5? And if he saw her a couple of times a year, how would they develop the deep and intimate relationship that is implied in the books?
Unless the deep and intimate relationship didn't come from childhood, and didn't develop until they were older.....
Well, I have thought about this and I think it works if they developed their bond at a later age, as you have described, and that is how I initially viewed it too, but I did see a comment on the Westeros board (I am sorry, right now I can't look to see who posted it but maybe Feather Crystal?), that possibly Ned was sent to the Eyrie because maybe he and Lyanna got busted as children. This would be very similar to Jaime/Cersei, and I think that is an interesting parallel.
Well, there was more than one promise. And who's to say Ned wouldn't have killed Jon himself if it turned out he was born of incest? She now had to protect Jon from Ned the Lord, and his justice. Mayhaps Lyanna also asked for Ben to be sent to the Wall, rather than let him be beheaded.
This does have some potential if Benjen is the father, a reason for Benjen to be at the wall, instead of dead. But would Ned kill his own brother? Maybe ... Ned the Lord is different than Ned the Man. Bran tells us that in his very first chapter. But even if Ned is the father and not Benjen, he might still believe Jon (incest baby) is a child that might need to be killed. Or hell, maybe Lyanna wanted Ned to kill baby Jon, and that is why Neds broken promises to Lyanna haunt him, because he let Jon live! It could twist many directions in the wind.
The problem is, that the timeline doesn't work for other events either. So either GRRM confused himself, or we are being misled
I do think we are being misled. By the king of misdirection himself, His Grace George R. R. Martin! I think the reason timeline is so vague is to give GRRM a chance to play with us.
I didn't think this essay was going to convert anyone, but I hope it has opened people's eyes that this normally quickly dismissed theory is worth a much closer look, and entertained people while doing it. The theory I'm closest to sold on is R+L=J but it's no certainty, and interesting to look at the alternatives. This is one that is thematically very credible, offers explanations for a couple of unknowns, and doesn't require us to reject things we already think we know. I think that makes it an interesting alternative.
I think your essay was great. I have believed in r+l=j for years as the strongest contender, but I have always felt like there were more holes in that theory than I felt comfortable with. That is why I am trying to look at all sorts of idea's with an open mind, and I have certainly been willing to give this theory a closer look. And I keep looking, because it has so many things that fit. And weirdly, they fit very well. Better than many other theories, except r+l=j, which is at the same time so obvious that it jumps at a person page after page. And that makes me suspicious that anything so obvious cannot be the real deal.
Did not mean to post so much, but there have been so many great comments, it is fun to discuss!
Post by regular jon umber on Feb 1, 2017 10:23:29 GMT
Can't believe how long it's been since we started this discussion - so long ago that I can't even remember saying half of what I said! But since it's been re-started, it's gotten stuck in my head once again.
A few thoughts that have recently popped into my head:
- The others are taking Craster's sons that he has through incest. There's a theory out there (on this board too) that, in the prologue, they are looking for someone, and try out poor Waymar because he is similar to what they are looking for. Perhaps they want a Stark born of incest? Remember the Snowgate, how Alysane renamed it to Queensgate at the same time that she outlawed first night in the North. The Others want bastards. Do they really want Stark bastards, perhaps ones born of incest? Could Jon's birth have caused them to come look for him, thus being the reason why 'the old gods have awoken'? - Bael's son was named lord of Winterfell. Why? Were there no Stark cousins/uncles/aunts/etc? If he was not actually Bael's son, but rather the son of Brandon the daughterless, a son of incest, then maybe... - Maybe Rhaegar witnesses Rickard's act with Lyanna and thus giving the blue rose to her, letting Rickard know that he had connected the dots. - Could it have happened at HArrenhal precisely because it was near the Isle of Faces? -- But timelines are a mess, yes. Jon being conceived between Harenhal and Lyanna's abduction needs a lot of hand-waving ... --- But what if he wasn't the baby born at the tower?
Ok, it's probably all nonsense, but with my utter malaise regarding this series due to the show-awfulness/book-delay combo, it was fun having a go at this again.
lynn, check out what these folks have observed of Brandon and Lyanna:
Barbrey Ryswell Dustin
"Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain.
Rickard & Ned:
"It has a name, does it?" Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."
Ned:
"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.
Catelyn:
Catelyn softened then, to see his pain. Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon's place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.
Theon:
But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.
Ned:
He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.
Arya:
Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. "There are worse things than spiders and rats," he whispered. "This is where the dead walk." That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya's hand.
Bran:
They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."
If Lyanna is Jon's mother, the shadow of the woman Eddard would not name belongs to her.
This means Catelyn feels Lyanna's shadow lying down with Brandon's shadow in their bed... the bed of the Lord of Winterfell.
Theon does more than feel their shadows together, he sees them.
Two shadows, side by side, just as they are in the crypts. Their father stands behind, acknowledging 'The wolf blood' they share.
This is why the Stark-smiles died when Rhaegar gave Lyanna the qolab crown.
Now, if we remove years of dogma and fan theory from The Promise, we can see that Lyanna made Ned promise to entomb her next to Brandon. Ned agreed. Lyanna's fears went away. She smiled tremulously, and gave up her hold on life.
That was her dying wish: to rest beside Brandon and father.
Lyanna balked at Robert because she was a wild Stark-Supremacist. A pair of centaurs, those two. Ned didn't need a cover story that would explain Jon Snow sprouting silver hairs or black hairs, because he knew Jon would only look like a Stark.
"Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know."
That's all Cat needs to know, because that is all there is to know. Jon is wolf blood, with no other blood to speak of.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
That's all Cat needs to know, because that is all there is to know. Jon is wolf blood, with no other blood to speak of.
Well, I suppose it could be Brandon's and Lyanna's shadows in bed with Ned and Cat but it's not my favorite theory.
A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV "Do you Starks have nought but snow between your ears?" Littlefinger asked. "The Imp would never have acted alone." Ned rose and paced the length of the room. "If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself … no, I will not believe that." Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.
I'm not sure why Ned compares Sansa to Lyanna in the above quote; or why Lyanna would be so desperate for Ned to promise to bury her with her father and brother. That's not quite making sense to me. That would be an easy thing for Ned to do. Sansa is desperate over Lady's death sentence.
Likewise, I'm not sure what promises Ned broke:
A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV When he thought of his daughters, he would have wept gladly, but the tears would not come. Even now, he was a Stark of Winterfell, and his grief and his rage froze hard inside him.
When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. He wondered where she was, what she was doing. He wondered whether he would ever see her again.
I think the shadow of the woman who comes between Ned and Catelyn is Ashara.
A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII "I'm not afraid," she said. "That boy Ned said . . ."
"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."
"She killed herself, though," said Arya uncertainly. "Ned says she jumped from a tower into the sea."
"So she did," Harwin admitted, as he led her back, "but that was for grief, I'd wager. She'd lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning." He shook his head. "Let it lie, my lady. They're dead, all of them. Let it lie . . . and please, when we come to Riverrun, say naught of this to your mother."
The shadow of Ned's brother lying between them can also be explained here:
A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me." "Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not." Ned turned away from her, back to the night. He stood staring out in the darkness, watching the moon and the stars perhaps, or perhaps the sentries on the wall.
Lady Dustin. Why, oh why does she have such a grudge against Ned Stark. Why stop his bones from being buried in Winterfell? Maybe Brandon does have a bastard or two around the North.
A Dance with Dragons - The Turncloak "Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests … but I promise you, Lord Eddard's bones will never rest beside hers. I mean to feed them to my dogs." Theon did not understand. "His … his bones …?"
Her lips twisted. It was an ugly smile, a smile that reminded him of Ramsay's. "Catelyn Tully dispatched Lord Eddard's bones north before the Red Wedding, but your iron uncle seized Moat Cailin and closed the way. I have been watching ever since. Should those bones ever emerge from the swamps, they will get no farther than Barrowton." She threw one last lingering look at the likeness of Eddard Stark. "We are done here."
I repeatedly skipped this essay because I thought the idea of Jon being a product of incest was absurd. Now having read this essay and reread GOT I have to say I stand corrected. Kingmonkey did an excellent job with this essay.I would put this as one of the top contenders for Jon's parentage. The brother that I am most convinced got Lyanna with child is Ned. I feel that Jon's first chapter in GOT eliminated Benjen as a possibility and timeline issues make any conception with Brandon impossible.
Let me be frank I'm in the camp that Lyanna as Jon's mother is indisputable but I also believe that Rhaegar is red herring for Lyanna's baby daddy from my own independent reading of ASOIAF. So I'm usually looking for alternative theories for Jon's parentage. In regards to Lyanna's location we don't know where she was during the war. We know she supposedly was at the tower of joy from semi-canon material but nothing has been confirmed in canon as to her actual whereabouts during the war. We also don't know if she was even with Rhaegar or if he had anything to do with her disappearance. This makes a conception with Ned or Benjen very possible unless we get more information stating that she wasn't with them for a year and they had no idea where she was. Now in regards to that we have the fact that Ned never once in GOT says that Lyanna was ever missing or was ever raped by Rhaegar. Bran believes she was kidnapped and raped but that is likely from whispers around the castle than from Ned himself. We could very well end up with a scenario where the Starks knew where Lyanna was all along but opted not to tell Robert. S+L=J has some of the same holes that many non R+L=J theories has but it does stand up to scrutiny much better than many of the other theories. With Ned it would explain so much of GOT much better than R+L=J and plus N+L=J patches up many of the holes that R+L=J doesn't.
In his 1993 letter George pitched the idea of having Jon and Arya end up together. The main purpose of Jon's parentage in the original outline was to make this possible but it appears that the Jon/Arya pairing was scrapped. So what if the Jon/Arya idea was reconstituted in a different form with Ned and Lyanna but them being actual siblings. Maybe there was a forbidden romance between the Ned and Lyanna. This could be due to the fact that Ned spent so much of his time in the Vale that he and Lyanna did not see each other as siblings allowing for sexual attraction to develop. There are some lines of dialogue that could be interpreted as being romantic instead of brother like in GOT. Ned calls Lyanna "a child woman of surpassing loveliness." He tells Robert he never Lyanna the way he did. I think it was already covered in the essay that he felt a sense of shame and sorrow that was too deep for words when thought about Jon. Also, there is the fact that whatever he tells Bran in the crypts of winter fell is disturbing and frankly Lyanna+anyone that is not a Stark is shocking but not really disturbing. He is seemingly very traumatized about her death in a way that he isn't about Brandons. Also, Lyanna dies in a room that smelled of blood and roses while Ned is seemingly the only person who knew Lyanna loved blue winter roses. Also, this is the only theory that I can find where there is a good reason for him not to tell Cat. Ned very much loves and trusts Cat in the books and if he was just protecting his sisters child then why would he not tell that to his lady wife. Cat has her vices but if Ned was doing such as insanely noble act then I don't think that she would rat him out on that attempt so there has to be something much deeper.
Lady Dustin. Why, oh why does she have such a grudge against Ned Stark. Why stop his bones from being buried in Winterfell? Maybe Brandon does have a bastard or two around the North.
In A Dance with Dragons, we learn more about Brandon Stark and his interest in women, similar to Robert's. Did Brandon have any bastards as well?
It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children. It's established in the books that he was no virgin. He could very well have left behind some little Snows in the various places he visited. But what's absolutely clear is that he had no legitimate children.
For what its worth I really like the connections with Benjen and having him show up at some point to reveal this to Jon would be something.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
For what its worth I really like the connections with Benjen and having him show up at some point to reveal this to Jon would be something.
At one time, I thought that Ned took Jon away from Lady Dustin when he returned the red stallion and this was why she hated Ned so much that she would take revenge on him. She always wanted to be a Stark and her father didn't mind Brandon taking liberties if a child was the outcome. Rickard would have to honor a marriage alliance with the house where Brandon had been sent as a ward. But the timing seems off if the last time she saw Brandon was after his betrothal to Catelyn... unless he didn't tell her until much later... because love is sweet, but it doesn't change a man's nature.
Brandon and Lyanna does seem possible to me as well, although it doesn't fit with my impression of Lyanna. She may have known about Brandon's liasons with Lady Barbrey since it seems she spent time at Barrowtown as well. Lyanna's comment that "love is sweet" does echo Lady Barbrey's comments about Brandon.
Tyrion's comment that Jon has more of the north in him should count for something.
If Ned through over Lady Barbrey for Catelyn, instead of marrying her and legitimizing Jon AND took Jon away from her; I can see her taking revenge. That would also make Jon a relative of Roose and Ramsey Bolton.
Lady Bolton not only loses a son; but her husband as well at the ToJ. So Ned would have taken everything from her.
Another interesting possibility is that Ramsey Snow is Brandon's son by Lady Barbrey. Since Barbrey is Roose's sister; she may produce a son with his eyes which seem to be the factor that convinced him to take Ramsey.
If Jon is Brandon's and Barbrey's; he could also be the Stallion who Mounts the World:
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V "The thunder of his hooves!" the others chorused. "As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name." The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. "The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world."
It's Patchface with bells in his antlers who sings of his coming the first time he sees Jon Snow:
"The Crow, the crow... under the sea, the crows are white as snow."
Why did I read this! It is written by someone in the bag for R+L=J, so it was just not earnest, and thus it ended up being completely unsupported by textual evidence. The innuendos used as pretend support are laughable. I hope it was all tongue in cheek, because, elsewise, I wasted my time .
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Why did I read this! It is written by someone in the bag for R+L=J, so it was just not earnest, and thus it ended up being completely unsupported by textual evidence. The innuendos used as pretend support are laughable. I hope it was all tongue in cheek, because, elsewise, I wasted my time .
This was written as part of a large, multi-option parentage read several years ago connected to the Heresy board. The author did write the R+L=J topic, but he chose to write this topic as well, and took quite a bit of flack from the RLJ society over on Westeros for even proposing to write this up. It was not originally part of the x+l=y essays, but added by the author. I do think humor is used to deflect from the "ick" factor involved, but I don't know that it is all innuendo and unsupported, even though the tone is a bit tongue in cheek. There are certainly some points that are made quite well, despite the humor used. I would also say "completely unsupported by textual evidence" is really overlooking the points the author makes. A person can still write and debate to support a subject, even if they don't truly believe that is the best answer.
Did you read any of the discussion that follows or just the OP? Just curious.
Their father understood as well. "You want no pup for yourself, Jon?" he asked softly.
Tigers14: another question, can NW vows be annulled if a person had no idea who he really was when he took them? GeoRR: who had no idea who he was? Tigers14: jon GeoRR: Jon knows who he is. He may not know who his mother is, but that's not the same thing. There are plenty of orphans and bastards in the Watch who don't know who their parents are.
Which, if combined with GRRM's 1993 letter to his agent Ralph Vicinanza
Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.
gets us to something voice has previously told me actually:
I'm saying the Starks (like the Targaryens of old and Lannisters of new) have a rich tradition of incest and producing children and heirs via said incest.
Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen - all serve as examples of noble children born of incest. Proto-Jon and Proto-Arya having a fling would be less awkward and easier to rationalize for each character if they became aware that Starks and Incest go together like, well, Rickard and Lyarra. (Lyarra Stark that is... daughter of Rodrik Stark)
If Jon/Arya learned Jon was the son of Lyanna, and that he was sired by Lyanna's own brother... cousin-fucking wouldn't seem like much of an affront to the traditions of House Stark.
Because Ashara/Wylla/fisherman's daughter options don't really change anything for Jon&Arya. And GRRM specifically states that the only info Jon is lacking is of his mother, not his parents.