GRRM damns the canonical status of the world book by either attributing the book to maesters that do not exist, or would-be writers that do. If there is no distinction between the two for GRRM, that is quite intriguing.
I think this is what Martin found entertaining about the World book project. And to be honest, it's pretty clever. He took one of his main points of emphasis in these books - the fact that narrators/POVs are suspect, limited in their ability to know or interpret events - and he used the World book as an opportunity for a real-world illustration of that idea. I do find that rather funny.
"Anticlimax is, of course, the warp and way of things. Real life seldom structures a decent denouement." - Martin Silenus
I think this is what Martin found entertaining about the World book project. And to be honest, it's pretty clever. He took one of his main points of emphasis in these books - the fact that narrators/POVs are suspect, limited in their ability to know or interpret events - and he used the World book as an opportunity for a real-world illustration of that idea.
Rhaegar looking like Chris Hemsworth is absolutely cringe worthy from an in world perspective
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Weasel Pie might want to have a quick peek at the Heresy Project RLJ thread over on the W. There's a relevant discussion in the past few comments made.
And might I mention, this thread is a true tribute to what I love about all of you guys here at the LH. How many other nerds out there could take a two sentence answer and turn it into a 14 page debate?!? You are all awesome!!!
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Thank you, Voice, but I was looking for a timeline for events prior to the current story. I was aware of the Westeros one, but I'm not sure it's all that accurate.
Feather i got your request.I will.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
hahaa, welp... heya RT and JS, how are ya? Long time no see.
And since LmL is a member here, Ill tag him so he finds this thread more easily.
I'm sorry WeaselPie, but I jumped the gun and posted on Westeros before you, giving you credit though of course. I could not let LmL's post go by without commenting last night!
Your post got missed so I commented as well. I actually just posted a link to the thread here. Hopefully Weasel Pie doesn't mind.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Thank you, Voice, but I was looking for a timeline for events prior to the current story. I was aware of the Westeros one, but I'm not sure it's all that accurate.
I have been working on a Rebellion one, if that's what you're wanting. It isn't complete and I have broken it down by quarters instead of actual months - quarters give us a 3 month range to work with and allows for overlap/wiggle room/bad GRRM math.
Q1 : January - March Q2 : April - June Q3 : July - September Q4 : October - December
"Overlap" simply means around the end of one quarter/beginning of the next.
280 Q1: Rhaegar/Elia marry. Mama Martell still alive. Q2: Q3: Q4: Rhaenys born. Elia begins bedrest ~6 mos.
281 Q1 - overlap: Elia recovered. Escorted through Kingswood/Hightower injured. Arianne meets Rhaenys (mentions holding the baby in her TWOW sample chapter - this could only have happened between 281 and early 282, before the war) Q2 - overlap: KWB defeated. (Led by Arthur Dayne, as Hightower still recovering from wound. Simon Toyne killed. Jaime knighted.) Tywin still Hand, Cersei in KL. Q3 - overlap: False Spring, Tourney at Harrenhal (late Q3). Tywin/Cersei return to the Rock. Lyanna crowned; Jaime made KG; Ashara Dayne "not long at court". NOTE: I believe Elia made a trip to Dorne/met up with her Dornish family after Rhaenys' birth - Ashara returned to court with her at that time. Q4: Winter returns with a vengeance. Snow covers KL, Blackwater freezes.
282 Q1: Fires burn in KL, Rhaegar not there to see them. Elia and Baby Aegon on Dragonstone. Q2: Brandon/Petyr duel after pending Cat marriage announced. Just shy of wedding day Brandon "heard the news about Lyanna" and leaves. Sam Tarly conceived. Overlap: Brandon/Rickard go to KL and are killed. Aerys calls for heads. Q3: Jon Arryn revolts. Ned betrothed to Cat. Lady Dustin married "not half a year" when Jon Arryn/Robert called banners - Lord Ryswell had wanted to marry Barbrey to Brandon (probably because they were already shagging), but married her to Dustin instead after that no longer possible due to announcement of Brandon's wedding to Cat (a Q1 wedding announcement to Q3 banner-call is about 6-8 months - just about right for Ryswell to find Barbrey a quickie husband). Overlap: Fighting already in Vale, Gulltown. Ned returns to Winterfell - Fisherman's Daughter. Battles of Ashford and Summerhall. Randall Tarly has a victory for the Crown. Q4: Margaery Tyrell conceived (has to be Q4 given her name day window - I'm assuming Mace returned to Highgarden briefly after Ashford to reform his vanguard to march south). Mace Tyrell's van marches to SE to begin siege. Rhaegar AWOL, JonConn named Hand. Ned gathers army, rides south.
283 Q1: Battle of the Bells, Rebel victory at Stoney Sept. Rhae Rhae still away. Arryn heir killed in battle. Ned returns to Riverrun, double wedding. Cat pregnant. JonConn exiled. Mama Martell dead/gone, Doran Martell now Prince of Dorne. Samwell Tarly born. Q2: More fighting in south. Ned off at war, Rhaegar "returns from the south" and starts organizing Royal forces; Dornish marching up the Boneway. Overlap: Trident. Rhaella supposedly conceives Dany. Margaery Tyrell born (late summer birthday, like August) - conceived before Mace left for Siege in late Q3/early Q4 Q3: Sack of King's Landing (this is ~one year from JA calling banners, consistent with text). Robb born - A Cat POV mentions being safe at RR w/newborn Robb as city torn apart Overlap: Siege at SE lifted (this is ~one year from Battle of Ashford, consistent with text - Davos confirms TWICE through POV in late summer/early fall 299 that his delivery of onions/fish was "16 years ago"; siege lifted shortly after) Q4: Ned heads south, Tower of Joy. Robert tasks Stannis with taking Dragonstone, Stannis begins building fleet.
284 Q1: Ned's long return trip from Dorne Overlap: Ned back at Winterfell (this is ~one year after marriage to Cat, consistent with text), Jon there too Q2: Dany born (supposedly) during fierce summer storm Q3: late in quarter, Willem Darry & children flee to Braavos Overlap: Assault on Dragonstone (this is ~one year after lifting of Siege, consistent with text) Q4: War over, Robert and Cersei to marry.
I interpret a few thing from this timeline:
1) Jon can indeed be born around the Sack and be 8-9 months older than Dany. 2) Dany can indeed be conceived at the time of the Sack in order to be born in Q2 284, although it might be pushing it a bit. Conception moved back to around the time of the Trident pushes it even further. 3) I believe it's more likely that there are several weeks between the Trident and the Sack. 4) There is no way that it's only a couple of weeks between the Sack and the TOJ. 5) Ergo, Jon cannot be newly born around the time of the Sack AND the TOJ. 6) Jon can be born around the time of the Sack and be 8-9 months older than Dany per SSM, but he CANNOT be just-born at the TOJ and be 8-9 months older than Dany.
*I* think that Lyanna was taken in the spring, and whatever "news" about her (IMO: that she was being held by the Crown to be executed) began circulating spring into summer. Her family marches in early summer to defend her, the Stark men are killed in summer (by a fire king, how appropriate), and war officially breaks out in fall. Winter begins, as does Ned's march south with his men, and the siege on SE. Fighting, fighting, more fighting until the next summer, when Rhaegar is killed on the Trident late in that season. Fall brings the fall of KL and the Targaryen dynasty, and the lifting of the Siege. In winter again, Ned finds no Joy at the Tower, but returns home in time to dream of spring.
Now, all you Beltane folks can play with the seasonality of that and have fun. ::pork::
Now, all you Beltane folks can play with the seasonality of that and have fun.
whoa, this is beautiful.
Deserves a separate thread, I think
There have been several topics that came from this thread that deserve their own I think. Can't help but love the way canonical discussions raise questions.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I don't think he actually gave answers to two questions. As you say, Martin is tricksy with the ellipses. He gave one answer to WP's question. The maesters are the authors. Elio, Linda and George.
It's a small quibble, but we may have to agree to disagree on this one Mitsubishi Toyota. Before the ellipsis, I think he answers WP regarding canon. After, Martin redirects WP's attention away from the question of canonicity and instead focuses on in-world veracity - a completely different topic, and one Martin can probably guess WP is already fairly familiar with. No one believes the in-world characters (particularly in-world maesters) are reliable narrators. Martin knows the difference, knows what WP was asking, and yet demoted the worldbook from canon because of some unnamed maesters.
On the latter, we agree. And that was the point of my comment. In-universe, the worldbook only has one author, and his name is Yandel. In the real world, we know there are three. Martin demotes the worldbook from the ranks of canon based on maesters whose writings tend to be erroneous and omit much and more. I think we all know their names.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Made a few more edits for clarity. Also, anyone with better/different/contradictory info, pitch it in!
I for one would love to see how all the fertility ritual/green man people interpret the seasonal aspect in a separate thread...I will be the first to admit I'm not that familiar with the cycle aside from what I've read here, but it's fascinating and makes total sense, imo. A wolfmaid7 or freyfamilyreunion take on it would be awesome.
Made a few more edits for clarity. Also, anyone with better/different/contradictory info, pitch it in!
I for one would love to see how all the fertility ritual/green man people interpret the seasonal aspect in a separate thread...I will be the first to admit I'm not that familiar with the cycle aside from what I've read here, but it's fascinating and makes total sense, imo. A wolfmaid7 or freyfamilyreunion take on it would be awesome.
I'm neither of them, but can give you the standard story:
The Summer King s dies at Samhain/ reign of the Winter (Holly) King begins. The Mabon-child, who will become the Summer King, is born at Yule,Winter Solstice, and stolen/hidden away a month later at Candlemas. The young Summer King returns at Easter, impregnates the Goddess at Beltane, and defeats the Winter King. (Reign of the Oak King). The Goddess's pregnancy is celebrated at Litha, Summer Solstice. The Winter King challenges the Summer King in Lughnassa, at the beginning of fall. The Summer King sickens from his wounds in Autumn,and everything starts again.
Made a few more edits for clarity. Also, anyone with better/different/contradictory info, pitch it in!
I for one would love to see how all the fertility ritual/green man people interpret the seasonal aspect in a separate thread...I will be the first to admit I'm not that familiar with the cycle aside from what I've read here, but it's fascinating and makes total sense, imo. A wolfmaid7 or freyfamilyreunion take on it would be awesome.
Oh i'm hoping to start a thread of that nature after my essay posts on Westeros.Alot of queries come out of this i might add. We will call it "the grand rite at Harrenhal." Also BB i posted a few lines from your timeline post over at Westeros just to show how crazy the asserton of Jon's date was i liked how you put it,though i'm of a differnt mind.But it all highlights the innaccuracy to me.
4) There is no way that it's only a couple of weeks between the Sack and the TOJ. 5) Ergo, Jon cannot be newly born around the time of the Sack AND the TOJ. 6) Jon can be born around the time of the Sack and be 8-9 months older than Dany per SSM, but he CANNOT be just-born at the TOJ and be 8-9 months older than Dany.
I agree. That's impossible!
So if Jon wasn't born at the TOJ who was? Dany comes to mind. Something always annoyed me about Oberyn raising Dorne for Viserys. Why wouldn't Oberyn actually have Viserys when he wants to declare him as King? After all Arianne took Myrcella in order to crown her.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Thank you, Voice, but I was looking for a timeline for events prior to the current story. I was aware of the Westeros one, but I'm not sure it's all that accurate.
Q2: Brandon/Petyr duel after pending Cat marriage announced. Just shy of wedding day Brandon "heard the news about Lyanna" and leaves.
Catelyn Stark said:
"If you say so. You and he were to wed." "He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do."
Does that statement fit with the above? I suppose, if Brandon went off somewhere nearby quickly?