there wasn't a specific joke, I was remembering the timeline of events: semi-canon, JNR disputing Weasel Pie 's email (it was LJ not email which seemed to matter re:SSM? But I didn't understand bc JNR doesn't consider WB canon either) then SH shut down, of course not due to the semi canon thread, but I was joking that it was because of the timing of the closing and the earthquake that registered 8.4 magnitude at Westeros when markg171 and Weasel Pie started to ask probing questions.
Interesting. I didn't remember JNR disputing the email. Might be funny if a bunch of us separately wrote down the way we thought things went down last June/July... threw them into a hat, and had someone read them back to us. We'd probably all end up scratching our heads a bit.
What I realized, and had not remembered, when I looked back at the end of that thread (can't remember which one), was that JStar seemed pretty irritated. Also, that the "put up or shut up" call surfaced there... and may have migrated from that conversation over to Fight Club. Though I think voice was in the process of climbing down off a fence. (He may have climbed back up since then, I'm not sure.)
Though I think voice was in the process of climbing down off a fence. (He may have climbed back up since then, I'm not sure.)
The RLJ fence?
You might be pleased to know my ass cheeks no longer squeeze that rough-hewn picket. I think there are glaring clues for RLJ, and that the source of those clues are derived from rumor and gossip rather than those who'd know. Of those who would know the nature of Lyanna's disappearance, bloody bed, and death, it seems there is only Howland Reed and (hopefully) Benjen alive to tell the tale. Ben wasn't there of course, but I like bringing up his name, and hope that Ned divulged some information regarding their sister. Ben grew up with Lyanna at Winterfell, and deserved to know what happened. ::flag wave::
Jon is a First Man to the blood and bone. The weir-wolf proves it. Rather than dreaming of hatching dragons, or setting himself on fire, Jon dreams of defending the Wall - a long palestone sword in the darkness.
You might be pleased to know my ass cheeks no longer squeeze that rough-hewn picket. I think there are glaring clues for RLJ, and that the source of those clues are derived from rumor and gossip rather than those who'd know. Of those who would know the nature of Lyanna's disappearance, bloody bed, and death, it seems there is only Howland Reed and (hopefully) Benjen alive to tell the tale. Ben wasn't there of course, but I like bringing up his name, and hope that Ned divulged some information regarding their sister. Ben grew up with Lyanna at Winterfell, and deserved to know what happened.
Jon is a First Man to the blood and bone. The weir-wolf proves it. Rather than dreaming of hatching dragons, or setting himself on fire, Jon dreams of defending the Wall - a long palestone sword in the darkness.
The World Book is NOT "Canon" although it's "close." And it's full of intentional mistakes (which we already knew, but it's important to clarify). We of course have no way of knowing which of the errors are intentional or not until the books are published, so, as many of us here have already argued, the World Book should not be used as a canon source.
2. So, when he says "since, it was written by maesters, errors and omissions have crept in," is he implying what I think he's implying re: the actual authors?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Might it not be that Martin has laid the groundwork for the basics of the "twist" with his inclusions of the bard figures interacting with rose maids?
Martin even does it in order:
Game: Blue winter roses given by Rhaegar tied to Lyanna's bed of blood (in a room that smelled of blood and roses).
Clash: Story of Bael the Bard--a story of a grudge match, striking a blow against the insult of the Stark in Winterfell. BUT the Stark maid supposedly falls for the Bard.
Storm: Jon (the Stark maid) meets the king bard, BUT the bard is not the lover. It's the bard's warrior/follower. And the second bard, Marillion, interacting with Sansa the Roadside Rose maid, is not the lover, either. He takes the fall for the political machinations involving a Stark maid.
Feast: Cersei the Mad Queen uses the Blue Bard against a Rose Maid for political gain and personal pleasure.
Seems like Martin could be setting up a potential twist, no?
Brilliant as always. But of course I'd think so. As I was saying over in Warg-Blocking...
Maybe--but, unlike Marillion, he's got some actual power. In the Eyrie, he does the bidding of the emotionally unbalanced leader. . .
I'd say all singers in A Song of Ice and Fire have actual power, and Marillion had enough for Sweetrobin to be haunted by his voice, and for LF to use him as a scapegoat for the death of a highborn lady...hey, wait a minute...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Might it not be that Martin has laid the groundwork for the basics of the "twist" with his inclusions of the bard figures interacting with rose maids?
Martin even does it in order:
Game: Blue winter roses given by Rhaegar tied to Lyanna's bed of blood (in a room that smelled of blood and roses).
Clash: Story of Bael the Bard--a story of a grudge match, striking a blow against the insult of the Stark in Winterfell. BUT the Stark maid supposedly falls for the Bard.
Storm: Jon (the Stark maid) meets the king bard, BUT the bard is not the lover. It's the bard's warrior/follower. And the second bard, Marillion, interacting with Sansa the Roadside Rose maid, is not the lover, either. He takes the fall for the political machinations involving a Stark maid.
Feast: Cersei the Mad Queen uses the Blue Bard against a Rose Maid for political gain and personal pleasure.
Seems like Martin could be setting up a potential twist, no?
Brilliant as always. But of course I'd think so. As I was saying over in Warg-Blocking...
I'd say all singers in A Song of Ice and Fire have actual power, and Marillion had enough for Sweetrobin to be haunted by his voice, and for LF to use him as a scapegoat for the death of a highborn lady...hey, wait a minute...
Oh, no! I wasn't trying to imply I'd come up with the whole list. You brought that up re: Marillion. Lady Dyanna and I have been playing with those references, too.
I meant the Blue Bard. It puts a blue bard, who Cersei thinks scents his hair with blue rose water, as the weapon of a Mad Queen to take down a rose maid. That's the next clue to what I think is Aerys' role. . . that's all.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Oh, no! I wasn't trying to imply I'd come up with the whole list. You brought that up re: Marillion. Lady Dyanna and I have been playing with those references, too.
I meant the Blue Bard. It puts a blue bard, who Cersei thinks scents his hair with blue rose water, as the weapon of a Mad Queen to take down a rose maid. That's the next clue to what I think is Aerys' role. . . that's all.
Didn't take it that way at all m'lady. Was only saying "great minds think alike".
And great point regarding Aerys. He has the motive, the means, and the brain for damning his own blue rose bard.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Oh, no! I wasn't trying to imply I'd come up with the whole list. You brought that up re: Marillion. Lady Dyanna and I have been playing with those references, too.
I meant the Blue Bard. It puts a blue bard, who Cersei thinks scents his hair with blue rose water, as the weapon of a Mad Queen to take down a rose maid. That's the next clue to what I think is Aerys' role. . . that's all.
Didn't take it that way at all m'lady. Was only saying "great minds think alike".
And great point regarding Aerys. He has the motive, the means, and the brain for damning his own blue rose bard.
:::
And, to stop my head from spinning so I can go back to sleep (bronchitis plus an ear infection in both ears is not a pleasant combo)--
There's a bard in Dance, too. Abel helps the turncloak, former best friend of the heir, escape with the supposed Stark maid. Who is tortured, not by fire, but by blood--our knives are sharp.
So, did Rhaegar come to his senses and help Arthur get Lyanna out? Or is this just the fever talking?
Stopping now before I completely derail Weasel Pie's thread.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Didn't take it that way at all m'lady. Was only saying "great minds think alike".
And great point regarding Aerys. He has the motive, the means, and the brain for damning his own blue rose bard.
:::
And, to stop my head from spinning so I can go back to sleep (bronchitis plus an ear infection in both ears is not a pleasant combo)--
There's a bard in Dance, too. Abel helps the turncloak, former best friend of the heir, escape with the supposed Stark maid. Who is tortured, not by fire, but by blood--our knives are sharp.
So, did Rhaegar come to his senses and help Arthur get Lyanna out? Or is this just the fever talking?
Stopping now before I completely derail Weasel Pie's thread.
Great stuff. I've been wondering the same about Rhaegar...him helping the hapless couple. Does that make SAD our Reek? LOL /derail
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
As for the mute versus moot, I was trying to find Cecily Strong as "The Girl You Wished You Hadn't Started Talking To At A Party" video. It's a recurrent character on SNL, but all the ones I've found are only people taping their TV with their phone and the volume is too low, etc.
Lol I remember that skit
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Ok so scratch Shakespeare from the list. I get what you're saying in terms of his plays and how they were written, that's not entirely different to how TV and films are written today actually, but I was referring mainly to his poems. Some say he wrote them, and some that the Dark Lady actually wrote them, some that Kit Marlowe wrote them, Francis Bacon, etc. It's hard to tell which set is written by one hand, and which by another.
I was actually going to use the case of Jack the Ripper and his 5 canonical victims, but I figured I'd stick with the literary group.
For some reason, despite having read his poems, I always forget he also wrote them.
Yep! Hard to doubt he lived and breathed and was educated enough to write plays and poems when you actually go there and see the amount of land his family had. He father was Burgher of the town FFS. He (and his family) are not obscure at all.
I find that most (though not all) people who actually give the whole authorship question a go, usually come from very wealthy and highly educated backgrounds. And a lot of it comes across as them doubting that a middle class kid from the boonies could write such equisit things--because of course the middle class has never produced actual artists. ::eyeroll:: There's also usually a tendency to romanticize despotic monarchy as a form of governance amongst them. You know the kind that Elizabeth I actually ruled with--which in today's terms of governance we'd call a police state.
As for all that land, it's land he inherited from his mother, Mary Arden. Her father had been a Husbandman (i.e. wealthy peasant farmer who owned his land, for those who don't know), and Mary had been the lucky one to inherit everything when he died because most of her siblings ended up predeceasing her. We know that she knew how to read and write, that the Ardens claimed to be descended from Guy of Warwick (a Saxon hero from the pre-Norman days). She took her inheritance, married her sweetheart John Shakespeare (whose father had been a tenant of her father's) who was looking to make it big in the new emerging Middle Class by being a glover (with a lot of little black market wool trading on the side--which is what ruined his reputation and forced William to quit school with an 8th Grade education).
Kinda. If you look at the Encyclopedo as a work authored by an imperfect observer in Westeros (as in: "Maester Whatshisface wrote ...") it is canon. Just not "factual" or accurate. Neat trick, that. They can blame every grammar fuck up, errata, hell, even poor typesetting on the maester. It's hundreds of pages of supposition sandwiched between to crappy pieces of insulated plastic waiting for a retcon. Everyone who purchased this garbage should be given a thorough wet noodle lashing for enabling the mercenary authors. Nice art, though.
Speaking of retcons: I read a piece on Cracked that explains away a plot hole in LOTR. Why didn't the hobbitses ride the eagles to Mordor? Well, it was Gandalf's plan ALL ALONG! Except he got Balrog'd in Moria before he could reach them and had to keep his plan super secret.
Kinda. If you look at the Encyclopedo as a work authored by an imperfect observer in Westeros (as in: "Maester Whatshisface wrote ...") it is canon. Just not "factual" or accurate. Neat trick, that. They can blame every grammar fuck up, errata, hell, even poor typesetting on the maester. It's hundreds of pages of supposition sandwiched between to crappy pieces of insulated plastic waiting for a retcon. Everyone who purchased this garbage should be given a thorough wet noodle lashing for enabling the mercenary authors. Nice art, though.
Authors. Plural. Precisely why the worldbook is not canon. If GRRM alone had written from the in-universe maester's pov, I'd agree with you. Or even if it were clearly noted where GRRM's writings began and ended, and where Ralinda's began and ended, I'd agree. But, as published, it is a soup blending the author's canonical contributions with interpretive contributions from two fans.
Speaking of retcons: I read a piece on Cracked that explains away a plot hole in LOTR. Why didn't the hobbitses ride the eagles to Mordor? Well, it was Gandalf's plan ALL ALONG! Except he got Balrog'd in Moria before he could reach them and had to keep his plan super secret.
it is a soup blending the author's canonical contributions with interpretive contributions from two fans
I believe that much of the historical material will turn out to be canon, in the sense that it will be true/won't substantially change anything in the story itself. And this will be true no matter who authored those sections. I see little reason to intentionally lie (via "errors and omissions") about the names of the kings that Nymeria sent to the wall, for example. There's evidence that GRRM gave Linda and Elio some free reign with certain parts of the book. Likely because those details wouldn't matter/could be incorporated without a problem.
Let's call it for what it is...the glaring example of canon v. not-canon in the WB is Yandel's version of the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and how it ends with the cop-out of the phrase "But that tale is too well-known to warrant repeating here." That phrase screams intentional errors and omissions.
But even that is a fine line. Because several characters in the novels believe some of what Yandel hands us. So, some of those "facts" about R+L are canon in-universe - until we know more. But just like Joffrey being Robert's son, or Jon being Ned's son, are canon facts in-universe that have changed/can change based on new information, it's the exact same thing with R+L and the boring rote story repetition that Yandel gives us, skewed for King Robert's consumption and approval.
So why use the cop-out phrase if not to point out that something is wrong with the story that most people believe?
Good post.
My own crackpot theory is that Martin solicited ideas through Ran that originated in the Westeros forums... then used (or encouraged the use of) a bunch of crazy fan theories as filler material for the World book. That, essentially, is the heart of what grew into my own pet theory that "Ran = King Robert." In other words, the super-fan is the king... and history is written by the victor. The World book, in certain obvious respects, was written for/by King Robert [King Ran]... and thus reflects and supports certain politically-convenient versions of history that may not necessarily be true. It's an interesting work, and an entertaining way of adding to the story - but in the end, I wish he'd put it aside in the interest of finishing the next book. Because really, it's only for Ran's benefit as far as I can tell.