My current thoughts are that if you take Ned, Bobby B, Rhaegar, Arthur, Lyanna and Ashara and locked them all in a tower together then somehow we would wind up with Jon and Dany. Not quite sure who's responsible for what though. I might have left one or two possibilities out of the tower too. I'm not quite sure.
What I am sure of is that I'm dying to hear what @prettypig has to suggest!
We have a couple of facts to whiddle things down...most importantly:
-Jon is a Stark. Looks like one, wargs like a Northerner, was brought into Winterfell with Ned though he really wasn't in need of a baby. So could be he's a Dayne by Arthur/Lyanna or Ashara/Brandon/Ned, or is Wylla's kid with a Stark. But there has to be Stark gene there.
-Why would Ned hide the real mommy info of Stark child, even with Dayne blood, from both Robert and Catlyn? There's the pot sticker.
Why would Ned hide the real mommy info of Stark child, even with Dayne blood, from both Robert and Catlyn? There's the pot sticker.
Because if Jon's mother is Lyanna, people will automatically assume that Rhaegar is his father, because the whole realm believed he kidnapped her. No one would have ever believed Ned if he said the father was not Rhaegar.
And if Jon is Brandon's, he makes Ned's claim to Winterfell look slightly off.
I've never understood the issue of "hiding" Jon's mother. He cheated on wife. How many people are really going to be going around telling everybody who they were breaking their marriage vows with? That's illogical.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I've never understood the issue of "hiding" Jon's mother. He cheated on wife. How many people are really going to be going around telling everybody who they were breaking their marriage vows with? That's illogical.
Sure. But why admit he broke those vows at all? Why bring the kid home, or acknowledge him to begin with? So Ned screwed some woman during the war, big deal. But how'd he get stuck with the kid?
Why would Ned hide the real mommy info of Stark child, even with Dayne blood, from both Robert and Catlyn? There's the pot sticker.
Well, everyone seems to say that Robert only shows hatred towards the Targaryans, but what is the reason behind that hatred? He hates them because he believes that Rhaegar stole Lyanna from him. If he finds out that it was really someone else, do you think that he'd just give that person a pass? Or is it more likely that his anger and desire for vengeance would just be extended to another person/family? It might not impact Robert's hold on the throne, but as Robert himself tells us, it wasn't the crown he was fighting for, but the girl.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
But why admit he broke those vows at all? Why bring the kid home, or acknowledge him to begin with? So Ned screwed some woman during the war, big deal. But how'd he get stuck with the kid?
Well you can want to raise the child and give it a good life you know.
And that works whether Ned's the dad or not. Just as equally as you seem to be saying that he could have ignored the child, he could have done the exact same thing even if it wasn't his. He could have just left it, sent it away for fostering, given it to some servants to raise as theirs, killed it himself, whatever. Ned doesn't have to ever end up with the child whether it's his or not.
So the fact that Ned's raising Jon is rather irrelevant.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
My current thoughts are that if you take Ned, Bobby B, Rhaegar, Arthur, Lyanna and Ashara and locked them all in a tower together then somehow we would wind up with Jon and Dany. Not quite sure who's responsible for what though. I might have left one or two possibilities out of the tower too. I'm not quite sure.
What I am sure of is that I'm dying to hear what BeautifulBacon has to suggest!
Because if Jon's mother is Lyanna, people will automatically assume that Rhaegar is his father, because the whole realm believed he kidnapped her. No one would have ever believed Ned if he said the father was not Rhaegar.
Sure. But why admit he broke those vows at all? Why bring the kid home, or acknowledge him to begin with? So Ned screwed some woman during the war, big deal. But how'd he get stuck with the kid?
Well, everyone seems to say that Robert only shows hatred towards the Targaryans, but what is the reason behind that hatred? He hates them because he believes that Rhaegar stole Lyanna from him. If he finds out that it was really someone else, do you think that he'd just give that person a pass? Or is it more likely that his anger and desire for vengeance would just be extended to another person/family? It might not impact Robert's hold on the throne, but as Robert himself tells us, it wasn't the crown he was fighting for, but the girl.
Nahh Robert would kill anybody because he would still think that it was rape.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
My current thoughts are that if you take Ned, Bobby B, Rhaegar, Arthur, Lyanna and Ashara and locked them all in a tower together then somehow we would wind up with Jon and Dany. Not quite sure who's responsible for what though. I might have left one or two possibilities out of the tower too. I'm not quite sure.
What I am sure of is that I'm dying to hear what BeautifulBacon has to suggest!
-Why would Ned hide the real mommy info of Stark child, even with Dayne blood, from both Robert and Catlyn? There's the pot sticker.
Robert would go all beserker and Cat would be complicit.In her case plausible deniablity.
I didn't make my comment all that clearly...I was trying to say that if Ned was legitimately the daddy and did the dirty with, say, Ashara (or Wylla, or random), why would he have to be so coy with Robert? Though he let Robert believe it was Wylla, he never explicitly confirmed the dam's name. But if Rhaegar's the daddy....well...then Robert might want to kill the kid. And I have always thought Ned kept it secret from Cat b/c if she were pitted between her own kids and Jon, and knew Jon was a Targ, she'd roll on him in a second. Ned knew Cat was a bear.
Anyway, it was my dopey argument for Rhaegs being the daddy evidenced by Ned wanting all deets, including the baby mama's name, very hidden.
I still am not clear, so, maybe gonna get back in my lane now.
Robert would go all beserker and Cat would be complicit.In her case plausible deniablity.
I didn't make my comment all that clearly...I was trying to say that if Ned was legitimately the daddy and did the dirty with, say, Ashara (or Wylla, or random), why would he have to be so coy with Robert? Though he let Robert believe it was Wylla, he never explicitly confirmed the dam's name. But if Rhaegar's the daddy....well...then Robert might want to kill the kid. And I have always thought Ned kept it secret from Cat b/c if she were pitted between her own kids and Jon, and knew Jon was a Targ, she'd roll on him in a second. Ned knew Cat was a bear.
Anyway, it was my dopey argument for Rhaegs being the daddy evidenced by Ned wanting all deets, including the baby mama's name, very hidden.
I still am not clear, so, maybe gonna get back in my lane now.
Nahh you cool.
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
Man forget you all i have definitive proof that Robert is Jon's daddy.
My (Jon)sleeping cell is in Hardin’s Tower.”
“That’s the one with the broken battlement, no? Shattered stone in the yard below, and a lean to it like our noble king Robert after a long night’s drinking? I thought all those buildings had been abandoned.”Jon shrugged. “No one cares where you sleep.
You all see it? Jon is in a tower that looks like a leaning Robert.Tower is a phallic symbol.The stones scattered around it are pubic hair Therefore Jon was in Robert's tower i mean his penis
Heck i should have put this as a ghost grass.It might have been to much.The mods might have pulled a plug on that one...
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
the fact that Ned's raising Jon is rather irrelevant.
Not at all. It's the whole point, and ground zero for this little mystery. You say it would be illogical for Ned to go be "going around telling everybody who they were breaking their marriage vows with." I don't disagree. But by the same token, isn't it completely illogical for Ned to be going around telling everybody he broke his marriage vows in the first place?
I'm not suggesting he should have ignored the child. But frankly, putting the kid in the same household as Catelyn Tully was neither in Ned's best interest nor Jon Snow's. It was just about the most inconvenient, unwise solution Ned could have come up with, and it completely defied cultural expectation.
by the same token, isn't it completely illogical for Ned to be going around telling everybody he broke his marriage vows in the first place?
I'm not suggesting he should have ignored the child. But frankly, putting the kid in the same household as Catelyn Tully was neither in Ned's best interest nor Jon Snow's. It was just about the most inconvenient, unwise solution Ned could have come up with, and it completely defied cultural expectation.
So why did Ned bring Jon home?
The why of Jon Snow being at Winterfell doesn't narrow the parents down at all though. Ned can equally raise or not raise Jon just as much whether he's his or he's not. Thus making it irrelevant. I don't disagree that Jon being at Winterfell was in nobody's interest, but that still doesn't actually provide any proof for who his parents are as that's true no matter who his parents are. It's in no one's interest for Jon to be there no matter who his parents are.
So yes the question is irrelevant because it doesn't provide anything towards the real question of who are his parents.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
the question is irrelevant because it doesn't provide anything towards the real question of who are his parents.
Well, the question you initially responded to was this one: "Why would Ned hide the real mommy info of Stark child, even with Dayne blood, from both Robert and Catlyn?"
And you said, basically, that naming Jon's mother would be an illogical thing for Ned to do because breaking one's marriage vows isn't something to go around bragging about. Well, that's true - but it would be a whole lot easier to defend Ned's silence on this matter if he'd never brought Jon home to begin with. I mean, really, the question might not ever have come up - except for the fact that Jon Snow lives at Winterfell.
So we could phrase it differently, I suppose. We could ask: Given that Ned considers the identity of Jon's mother important enough to keep secret from his wife, why did he decide to raise the boy at Winterfell? Why was that the best option?
the question is irrelevant because it doesn't provide anything towards the real question of who are his parents.
Well, the question you initially responded to was this one: "Why would Ned hide the real mommy info of Stark child, even with Dayne blood, from both Robert and Catlyn?"
And you said, basically, that naming Jon's mother would be an illogical thing for Ned to do because breaking one's marriage vows isn't something to go around bragging about. Well, that's true - but it would be a whole lot easier to defend Ned's silence on this matter if he'd never brought Jon home to begin with. I mean, really, the question might not ever have come up - except for the fact that Jon Snow lives at Winterfell.
So we could phrase it differently, I suppose. We could ask: Given that Ned considers the identity of Jon's mother important enough to keep secret from his wife, why did he decide to raise the boy at Winterfell? Why was that the best option?
Assuming that Ned's the actual father... here's a few potentials:
1) He's seen how Robert treats his bastard daughter Mya (with disinterest & benevolent neglect) and chooses to be different than Robert. 2) The mother was unable to care for the child. 3) The mother was dead. 4) He felt responsible for Jon.
This is all just dancing around the issue and instead launching sub questions that don't address the real problem which is determining who is Jon Snow's parents. None of these questions bring any support, or prove a lack of support, as to whether Jon's Ned and Wylla's child or not as the books say he is. Thus making them irrelevant questions.
Ned can decide not to talk about Jon's mother or to talk about her whether he's the father or not the father. Therefore it's irrelevant. Ned can raise or not raise Jon at Winterfell whether he's the father or not the father. Therefore it's irrelevant. Ned can do two of these things at the exact same time whether he's the father or not the father. Therefore it's irrelevant. Ned can do one but not another whether he's the father or not the father. Therefore it's irrelevant. Etc.
Unless a question addresses something that Ned definitely would not do if he were actually Jon's father, then the question is irrelevant as to determining who is Jon's "real" parents. To determine who is Jon's real parents, you have to first determine that Eddard is lying when he says it's him and Wylla and that that isn't actually the true parentage of Jon. None of those questions get you any close to eliminating that possibility. Thus making them irrelevant.
And even if the questions weren't irrelevant for having not established that Eddard wasn't the father, they do not bring you any closer to figuring out which Stark other than Eddard was the parent in particular. Thus making them irrelevant.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!