Yeah, if one wants a retelling of Celtic myth, I'd suggest The Chronicles of Prydain.
Right on! I just bought the series recently after having remembered them after many, many years. Going to have to get back into those soon. Not like TWOW is coming out soon anyway.
Petyr Baelish is the only surviving Reyne of Castamere Lyanna was dead when she birthed Jon Jon's father was also deadish/otherish Bran the Timelord! Bran as the KotLT, his own Uncle Brandon, the Night's King, etc. Samwell Tarly is Aegon!
Not so personal but love... Howland is the High Sparrow Mance is/was Rhaegar
So you're saying is that Jon was "born among the dead" then, eh? The problem I have with this is that that would mean Jon had to be cut out of Lyanna rather quick-like, because once a pregnant mother dies, the waste disposal unit on that placenta stops working and pretty soon (sooner than one might think) the baby starts being poisoned on its own... by-products.
This is one reason I take issue with the whole dead mother wolf giving birth to puppies. Mama wolf dies without pushing out those pups and breaking the placentas (and eating them)--those little wolf pups are dead. Mama Wolf most likely got grievously injured, and gave birth as she was dying--using up the last of her strength to give birth--of that I have no doubt. But she wasn't dead before those pups came out--or else there'd be no pups.
But... having said all that, this isn't the first time GRRM has ignored reality... drawing a bastard sword from the back should be impossible*, and yet Jon does it again and again and again...
*(unless the scabbard is really loose and Jon is pulling down the scabbard at the same time he's pulling up on the sword--but then his sword would be bouncing against his back every time he walked, and he'd have hurt himself by now, irritated himself, or had to fumble with the sword to get it into position before using it every time)
So you're saying is that Jon was "born among the dead" then, eh? The problem I have with this is that that would mean Jon had to be cut out of Lyanna rather quick-like, because once a pregnant mother dies, the waste disposal unit on that placenta stops working and pretty soon (sooner than one might think) the baby starts being poisoned on its own... by-products.
GRRM sets it up, and not based on "reality" for sure. I don't think the following is a throwaway exchange.
"I'm surprised she lived long enough to whelp," he said. His voice broke the spell.
"Maybe she didn't," Jory said. "I've heard tales . . . maybe the bitch was already dead when the pups came."
"Born with the dead," another man put in. "Worse luck."
But yeah, not to derail, I already have a thread on that. Cheers!
ETA one thing GRRM may have based on science is superfecundity - different fathers possible for the same litter. So, Ghost might have a different "father" than the other pups - Bloodraven warging a direwolf for example - which would mean breaking a known warg-law "don't mate while warging a wolf" which I think is not a throwaway line either.
Further he might be saying that if there were a set of twins back in the day, they could have different fathers. True wolf-science mixed with fantasy.
Petyr Baelish is the only surviving Reyne of Castamere Lyanna was dead when she birthed Jon Jon's father was also deadish/otherish Bran the Timelord! Bran as the KotLT, his own Uncle Brandon, the Night's King, etc. Samwell Tarly is Aegon!
Not so personal but love... Howland is the High Sparrow Mance is/was Rhaegar
So you're saying is that Jon was "born among the dead" then, eh? The problem I have with this is that that would mean Jon had to be cut out of Lyanna rather quick-like, because once a pregnant mother dies, the waste disposal unit on that placenta stops working and pretty soon (sooner than one might think) the baby starts being poisoned on its own... by-products.
This is one reason I take issue with the whole dead mother wolf giving birth to puppies. Mama wolf dies without pushing out those pups and breaking the placentas (and eating them)--those little wolf pups are dead. Mama Wolf most likely got grievously injured, and gave birth as she was dying--using up the last of her strength to give birth--of that I have no doubt. But she wasn't dead before those pups came out--or else there'd be no pups.
But... having said all that, this isn't the first time GRRM has ignored reality... drawing a bastard sword from the back should be impossible*, and yet Jon does it again and again and again...
*(unless the scabbard is really loose and Jon is pulling down the scabbard at the same time he's pulling up on the sword--but then his sword would be bouncing against his back every time he walked, and he'd have hurt himself by now, irritated himself, or had to fumble with the sword to get it into position before using it every time)
I think the wolf could have been dying while whelping, and eaten the sacs from the pups as she died. Didn't she have blood around her mouth? Can't remember.
Would add that Lyanna's blood and gore... and Ned's guilt/prices paid for his promises to her... make a lot of sense if he cut a baby out of her.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Doth my ears hear a fellow BtB=NK=Founder of House Stark conspiracy theorist?
If they all happen to be "our" Bran, who learns to skinchange into humans in the past through the weirnet, yes.
I think his first victim will be young Hodor. Bran himself is the cause of Hodor's affliction. And all that. Anyway once he gets past that hurdle, he'll start inhabiting the other people he finds while he's timelording around.
I don't see why our Bran has to be a necessary requirement...
Edit- get what you're saying re Hodor. Just don't think we need the timelord angle to connect BtB=NK= Stark/Winterfell Founder.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Weasel Pie , Just wondering what makes you think that Littlefinger might be a Reyne?
Primarily because I think we'll see a Reyne. The Rains of Castamere have been too prominent in the series as a song within the Song.
And if I had to put a geek hat on, I'd make an association with JRRT's "reign" of Castamir. Castamir had some good blood (pure Numenorean) but incited rebellion against the only half-Numenorean blooded king Eldacar (read: Lannister). Castamir's troops set the city on fire, then he exiled himself. He eventually claimed the throne but Eldacar (Lannister) killed Castamir. The rest of the family fled by ship and his grandsons etc. became renowned raiders/pirates/corsairs.
Anyway, lots on the topic. My other possibility is Daario Naharis.
But Littlefinger's motivations for ruining the Lannisters etc. is a big clue for me that he's more than a walking Napoleon complex. And I think he deserves the big reveal of being a Reyne more than any other character. Not much to go on, I know hahaa.
ETA it also ties in with my Planetos is swiss-cheesed with tunnels theory. The Reynes, pointedly, were underground and unseen when the caverns were flooded. They stopped screaming, that's all we know about their fate.
Interesting. It's funny because I've been trying to look at the echoes and a lot of it ties into a fair amount of symbolism, especially in order to parallel the characters. I think that Littlefinger and his minions might very well be represented by cats. Seems like that could tie into his being a Red Lion too. Hmmm
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
This is all very preliminary. Only just yesterday found a potential link for the cats to Littlefinger. I've been trying to link the cats and pigs to someone for a while now. You should see me when I'm reading. It's like Siri beat boxing, only instead of cats and boots it's cats and pigs...
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Jan 18, 2016 20:23:25 GMT
All right, speaking of crackpots, here is one that I've been mulling over for a while. Tyron is the bastard son of Oberyn, who in turn is the bastard son of Aerys, making Tyrion the manticore.
I've always found GRRM's prevelant use of the manticore imagery fairly odd. It's a Persian mythological creature, supposedly with the body of a lion, the head of a man, the tail of a scorpion or a dragon, and the wings of a bat. It also is known to shoot barbs from it's tail as if they were arrows (or crossbow bolts). It falls into the class of mythical creatures called a chimera (a conglomeration of various creatures). In some literature it has been considered to be associated with the Sphinx, since both possessed the body of a lion and a human face. One of the gargoyles that Davos views at Dragonstone ("sprouted from the castle's battlements as if they'd grown there") is a manticore. In the series, Amory Lorch, the one who kills Rhaegar's daughter bears the manticore sigil, and a "manticore" is what nearly stings Daenaerys when the sorrowful man gives her decorative box containing the creature.
I strongly believe that Tyrion is going to be one of the characters who makes up The Prince that was Promised role. To fill the role, Tyrion needs to be descended from Aerys and/or Rahella. I think GRRM is being too overt (especially in the world book) that Aerys may have forced himself on Joanna, so I tend to doubt that Aerys is Tyrion's father. But it occurred to me, that Aerys could be Tyrion's grandfather.
Let's start with Oberyn and whether or not he could be the child of Aerys. 1. Doran notes that after he was born, his mother had many miscarriages until later in life when she gives birth to Elia and then shortly thereafter Oberyn. 2. Oberyn and Elia are roughly of age with Rhaegar's, which means they were born shortly after Aerys and Rahella married. Their mother was one of Rahella's ladies in waiting along with Joanna. 3. The world book (yes, I know) in speaking of Aerys' interest in Joanna, mentions that Rahella had complained of Aerys having been turning her ladies into his whores. If in fact Joanna was not one of Aerys' "whores" then I wonder if perhaps Doran's mother was. 4. Shortly after Doran's mother would have gone to King's Landing to become one of Rahella's ladies in waiting she gives birth to two children after years of previous miscarriages. 5. Aerys sends Lord Baratheon on a mission to Essos to find a suitable bride for Rhaegar. He turns down Cersei as a suitable mate. Yet he agrees to marry Rhaegar to sickly Elia? It doesn't make much sense, unless of course Aerys knows that the Princess of Dorne's daughter is in fact his child. Then all of a sudden, Elia becomes a suitable bride for Rhaegar. 6. When Oberyn tells Tyrion of his trip to Casterly Rock, he tells Tyrion that he went with his mother, his sister, and his mother's "consort". I wonder if perhaps that Oberyn knows that his mother's husband was not his father, which is why he refers to him as her "consort"? 7. Finally, Oberyn's Targaryen parentage may explain his rounding up of his "Sand Snakes". He is seeking out other mates with Targaryen heritage and gathering their children, perhaps as potential dragon riders or dragon hatchers.
Now I'm much more convinced of the first part of my theory then I am of the second part. I think Oberyn would have had the opportunity to have been in contact with Joanna at the time of Tyrion's birth. Oberyn's mother and Joanna were very close. Tyrion was born roughly 9 months after a major tournament in King's Landing which could have very well brought the Martells and Lannisters back in contact with each other. Now Oberyn would have been young, probably 14 years of age. But of course, Oberyn was caught at the age of 16 with Lord Yronwood's paramour, so Obeyn was probably sexually active at an early age. This may also explain Tyrion's black hair in his beard, and his "evil" black eye. He inherited these "chimera" traits from his father Oberyn.It may also explain why Oberyn and Elia took such a strong interest in seeing Tyrion when they travelled to King's Landing and perhaps even helps explain why Oberyn championed Tyrion. Now, I know he had other motives for both actions, but Martin often seems to give his characters secondary ulterior motives, hidden by the more obvious motives in the texts. It also gives some additional resonance to Oberyn telling Tyrion that his father won't live forever right before he agrees to champion Tyrion against the Mountain. Once again, I understand that Oberyn very well could have been responsible for poisoning Tywin, but once again double meanings are not uncommon in this series.
Now why does this make Tyrion the manticore? Well we have a creature with the body of a lion (obvious) and the tail of a dragon or a scorpion. If Oberyn is half a dragon then it explains the dragon imagery. I think Oberyn also supplies the scorpion imagery. Oberyn tells Tyrion the story of the Martell lord killed by a canopy full of scorpions, he gives Joffrey a red gold Scorpion scarab, he was also the ward of Lord Qorgyle, whose sigil is the scorpion. Finally he even fights like a scorpion, jabbing the Mountain with his poisoned spear fighting like a scorpion would fight with his poisoned tail.
The Manticore has also been linked to the Sphinx, both being middle eastern creatures with the body of a lion and the head of a man. Tyrion has obvious Sphinx imagery. The manticore is also a type of Chimera, and Tyrion is gentically a "chimera" possessing hair of different color and two eyes of different color. The manticore also was reputed to fire barbs from his tail, and of course Tyrion kills his father with a type of barb, a crossbow bolt.
If the imagery is correct, then Tyrion is a type of poisoned gift, much like the gift of the manticore that the sorrowful man gives to Danaerys. Note after Illyrio gives Tyrion to Duck and Haldon, to bring to Young Griff, he tells them to tell Young Griff how he is "sorry" for not being able to make Young Griff's wedding.
This is all very preliminary. Only just yesterday found a potential link for the cats to Littlefinger. I've been trying to link the cats and pigs to someone for a while now. You should see me when I'm reading. It's like Siri beat boxing, only instead of cats and boots it's cats and pigs...
Cats make a lot of sense for LF. He's very feline in his nonchalant, lazy manner. He once even scuffed it up with a tough tomcat, fighting for a fish named Cat. There is also his antagonistic relationship with Varys - the keeper of little birds. And, he owns cathouses! Can totally see this. Well done Lady Dyanna, as always.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
All right, speaking of crackpots, here is one that I've been mulling over for a while. Tyron is the bastard son of Oberyn, who in turn is the bastard son of Aerys, making Tyrion the manticore.
I've always found GRRM's prevelant use of the manticore imagery fairly odd. It's a Persian mythological creature, supposedly with the body of a lion, the head of a man, the tail of a scorpion or a dragon, and the wings of a bat. It also is known to shoot barbs from it's tail as if they were arrows (or crossbow bolts). It falls into the class of mythical creatures called a chimera (a conglomeration of various creatures). In some literature it has been considered to be associated with the Sphinx, since both possessed the body of a lion and a human face. One of the gargoyles that Davos views at Dragonstone ("sprouted from the castle's battlements as if they'd grown there") is a manticore. In the series, Amory Lorch, the one who kills Rhaegar's daughter bears the manticore sigil, and a "manticore" is what nearly stings Daenaerys when the sorrowful man gives her decorative box containing the creature.
I strongly believe that Tyrion is going to be one of the characters who makes up The Prince that was Promised role. To fill the role, Tyrion needs to be descended from Aerys and/or Rahella. I think GRRM is being too overt (especially in the world book) that Aerys may have forced himself on Joanna, so I tend to doubt that Aerys is Tyrion's father. But it occurred to me, that Aerys could be Tyrion's grandfather.
Let's start with Oberyn and whether or not he could be the child of Aerys. 1. Doran notes that after he was born, his mother had many miscarriages until later in life when she gives birth to Elia and then shortly thereafter Oberyn. 2. Oberyn and Elia are roughly of age with Rhaegar's, which means they were born shortly after Aerys and Rahella married. Their mother was one of Rahella's ladies in waiting along with Joanna. 3. The world book (yes, I know) in speaking of Aerys' interest in Joanna, mentions that Rahella had complained of Aerys having been turning her ladies into his whores. If in fact Joanna was not one of Aerys' "whores" then I wonder if perhaps Doran's mother was. 4. Shortly after Doran's mother would have gone to King's Landing to become one of Rahella's ladies in waiting she gives birth to two children after years of previous miscarriages. 5. Aerys sends Lord Baratheon on a mission to Essos to find a suitable bride for Rhaegar. He turns down Cersei as a suitable mate. Yet he agrees to marry Rhaegar to sickly Elia? It doesn't make much sense, unless of course Aerys knows that the Princess of Dorne's daughter is in fact his child. Then all of a sudden, Elia becomes a suitable bride for Rhaegar. 6. When Oberyn tells Tyrion of his trip to Casterly Rock, he tells Tyrion that he went with his mother, his sister, and his mother's "consort". I wonder if perhaps that Oberyn knows that his mother's husband was not his father, which is why he refers to him as her "consort"? 7. Finally, Oberyn's Targaryen parentage may explain his rounding up of his "Sand Snakes". He is seeking out other mates with Targaryen heritage and gathering their children, perhaps as potential dragon riders or dragon hatchers.
Now I'm much more convinced of the first part of my theory then I am of the second part. I think Oberyn would have had the opportunity to have been in contact with Joanna at the time of Tyrion's birth. Oberyn's mother and Joanna were very close. Tyrion was born roughly 9 months after a major tournament in King's Landing which could have very well brought the Martells and Lannisters back in contact with each other. Now Oberyn would have been young, probably 14 years of age. But of course, Oberyn was caught at the age of 16 with Lord Yronwood's paramour, so Obeyn was probably sexually active at an early age. This may also explain Tyrion's black hair in his beard, and his "evil" black eye. He inherited these "chimera" traits from his father Oberyn.It may also explain why Oberyn and Elia took such a strong interest in seeing Tyrion when they travelled to King's Landing and perhaps even helps explain why Oberyn championed Tyrion. Now, I know he had other motives for both actions, but Martin often seems to give his characters secondary ulterior motives, hidden by the more obvious motives in the texts. It also gives some additional resonance to Oberyn telling Tyrion that his father won't live forever right before he agrees to champion Tyrion against the Mountain. Once again, I understand that Oberyn very well could have been responsible for poisoning Tywin, but once again double meanings are not uncommon in this series.
Now why does this make Tyrion the manticore? Well we have a creature with the body of a lion (obvious) and the tail of a dragon or a scorpion. If Oberyn is half a dragon then it explains the dragon imagery. I think Oberyn also supplies the scorpion imagery. Oberyn tells Tyrion the story of the Martell lord killed by a canopy full of scorpions, he gives Joffrey a red gold Scorpion scarab, he was also the ward of Lord Qorgyle, whose sigil is the scorpion. Finally he even fights like a scorpion, jabbing the Mountain with his poisoned spear fighting like a scorpion would fight with his poisoned tail.
The Manticore has also been linked to the Sphinx, both being middle eastern creatures with the body of a lion and the head of a man. Tyrion has obvious Sphinx imagery. The manticore is also a type of Chimera, and Tyrion is gentically a "chimera" possessing hair of different color and two eyes of different color. The manticore also was reputed to fire barbs from his tail, and of course Tyrion kills his father with a type of barb, a crossbow bolt.
If the imagery is correct, then Tyrion is a type of poisoned gift, much like the gift of the manticore that the sorrowful man gives to Danaerys. Note after Illyrio gives Tyrion to Duck and Haldon, to bring to Young Griff, he tells them to tell Young Griff how he is "sorry" for not being able to make Young Griff's wedding.
This is fascinating. I have always wondered if there was a male sand snake running around. Also its Tyrion who thinks that he hadn't heard of any sons of Oberyn Martell for extra lols.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Brienne mentions being raised by a nurse, but never a mother as she says she can't remember her as she died while she was young. Selwyn however had two daughters after Brienne, so if Brienne's mother were Selwyn's wife, then Brienne's mother should have lived till at the very least Brienne was 2. Brienne's only 20, and as a 22 year old I can tell you that I do still remember some events from that age so I find it kind of weird that Brienne can't remember her mom at all
Not everyone's memory is that good! I'm only about 30, and I'm lucky if I can remember anything before 10ish. But really, not everyone's memory is the same, or of the same quality. And as a fighter, Brienne's likely taken a few hits to the head! LOL! But seriously, a person's memory is as...personal, I guess...as perception. No one sees the world the same way you do, and no one remembers their world the same way you do. You may very well remember things from age 2, but that's very rare. It really isn't at all common (my 6 y.o does not accurately remember things from when she was 2 - she remembers them, but not the same way I do). And are you sure you're actually remembering, from your own memory? Or are you just "remembering" stories you've been told and pictures you've seen? Either way, at the end of the day - how your memory works isn't an accurate setting to determine how other people's memories work. Everyone's brain works differently, and that includes memory!
Having said that, I'm kind of onboard with the idea Brienne may not be Selwyn's trueborn daughter. The other bits and pieces you've pointed out make it definitely worth thinking about. But I for one am not surprised Brienne may not remember her mother, if her mother died when she was 2. Especially in a society/culture/time period where cheap photography hasn't been invented!
Howland is single at Harrenhal - It seems that in no more than a year later Howland is embroiled in Robert's Rebellion - So Howland has to have married Jyana sometime between his return from Harrenhal, whenever that was, and his leaving for the war sometime in 282 (probably mid-282) - Howland won't return until some time in 284 - Meera however is born in 283 - This doesn't really make sense as Howland is gone for almost all the possible timeframe to have impregnated Jyana (it's still doable, but less likely)
^^Isn't this almost nearly the same as Ned's. And he managed to get Catelyn pregnant with just a week or two between wedding and war. Ned's single at Harrenhal, less than a year later he's been back to the Eyrie, hiked across the Mountains of the Moon to the Bite then White Harbour, up to Winterfell, call the banners, head south (pick up Howland on the way?), marry Cat, knock her up, and head for battle and not to return to Catelyn until the end of the Robellion. Technically, wouldn't Howland have has *more* time than Ned to get a wife pregnant? He was at the Isle of Faces before Harrenhal, I presume he went home after Harrenhal - while Ned went to the Eyrie (then the mountains, Bite, White Harbour, Winterfell, then south) to wait until sh*t hit the fan and Ned called his banners. So all that time Ned was in the Vale and North, Howland could have been all cozy in his crannog knocking boots with his new wife before Ned called the banners. After calling the banners, Ned then manages to impregnate his new wife with just a few nights to spare. I'm sure Howland could manage it in those months that Ned's tromping around the mountains!
Again, I'm with you on questioning "who" Jyana is - but if Ned can manage to get Cat pregnant in a few nights I don't see why Howland couldn't manage it with, at least, a few weeks if not months!
Well at least to me I'm not sure if you really need that good of a memory. It's your mother, it's kind of an important person from your life lol. You'd think she'd have at least some memory of her, but she can't remember her.
And again, this is only the earliest possible moment that she could die seeing as we need time for 2 more pregnancies, and these would be then 3 pregnancies back to back to back. This seems rather rushed and force to just literally be popping out kids left and right lol, but the other thing do is that we know that Brienne's 4 years younger than Galladon was. So wouldn't be that surprising that there's some actual time between the other pregnancies as well.
And of course, as I said, Brienne never mentions that her sisters died at the same time that the mother did. Which seems like it should be kind of important to bring up that like "Alysanne died in the cradle, and Lady Tarth didn't survive much longer" or something if she died around the same time that Brienne's youngest sister did.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
^Big favourite of mine. I know everyone tends to assume that the NK's "corpse queen" was a Dustin, due to the curse of the First King turning people to corpses. But I've always thought the Bolton's would be a better fit. Dany's a dragon, Arya and Sansa are she-wolves - but why would a Dustin be a "corpse"? They've got a crown, not a corpse on their sigil. The Bolton's have a corpse! There's our "corpse queen" right there! And it gives some (hypothetical) backstory to why the Starks didn't appear to take any of the Red King's daughters to wed after they brought the Bolton's down. They married everyone else they beat - why not the Boltons? Because a Stark/Bolton marriage culminated in the Night's King tale. (The "easy" answer may be there weren't any Bolton girls to marry at the time - and we don't really have any evidence of a Stark/Dustin marriage either, though we do have a Stark/Dustin pairing which is more than we've got for Stark/Bolton). That's one of my favourite personal crackpot - A Stark was the Night's King (as per Old Nan) and his Corpse Queen was a Bolton, and I even find it likely that the current Bolton's are descended from them (maybe - naming conventions get me stuck, but it's doable and not unheard of)
I think Lord Baelish had some kind of training from either the Iron Bank of Braavos or the Faceless Men. He is far too knowledge in both poison and finances to not have some kind of connection.
I can't remember what other thread I was reading (or even which forum ), but what are the chances the FM have some "sleeper cells" kicking around? the Baelishes would be my first bet for a FM/IB "sleeper cell"! His grandpa came across to set the family up, daddy did what he could to improve the situation, and now the FM/IB are reaping the rewards with Baelish as Master of Coin, and now Lord Protector of the Vale. I'm not entirely sure what those rewards would be....
I do like the idea of Petyr being a Reyne, too. So - random thoughts, nothing coherent - what if grandpa Baelish gets the family set up, Daddy Baelish marries a "dishonoured" young Reyne girl (about the only way the son of a hedge knight is getting someone like a Reyne! Or Momma Baelish was a bastard Reyne...) and little Petyr grows up listening to his mother tell all sorts of horrible tales of the Lannisters, and then his whole life happens and adult Petyr is set a determined to not only knock out the Starks (who have humbled him while he was a teenager) but also the big bad Lannisters his mother always hated!
Though I'm also cool with the tunnels - I wouldn't be surprised if you could walk (at least) from Winterfell to the BWB hideout completely underground.
I know I have others, but apparently my Sansa/Lady warging while dead isn't as crackpot as I had previously thought : and everything is escaping me right now!