And Brandon the Daughterless' daughter jumped from a tower. Supposedly.
Whoops! ::oops::
Okay--so, "the current generation of Wolf Maids don't jump?" :::
Mayhaps. Lyanna at least was not said to have thrown herself from a tower, no matter what the account might be (fever dreams, rumors, etc), whereas Ashara most certainly did...per the rumors at least. LOL
Leave it to GRRM to give himself an 'out' for every possible scenario.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Like the symbolism connections between the tower and Mirri's tent ritual.
And why did Arthur fight? Just for honor?
Did Arthur get a chance to tell Ned?
How much would the Daynes know?
Is there an echo between Ned Dayne, Sweetrobin, and Bran? The knight's squire, the Winged Knight wannabe, and the Winged Wolf who so wanted to be a knight--all tied to the places where moon-maids fell to earth?
If Starfall is known for its sword and Winterfell is known for its crypts, do the sword and the crypts go together--IE Jon's dream where the kings come out of their tombs?
Did the Daynes know about a potentially ancient connection with the Starks at Harrenhal? Did the Starks know of one?
Did Rhaegar figure out the connection between Dawn and the battle for the Dawn? If so, did he go with them to Starfall? Baelish leaves Dontos (the false knight) behind--well, dead. Did Rhaegar and Whent go with? Or elsewhere?
I will now stop asking questions we can't yet answer.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
markg171SlyWren, these are the most compelling and logical arguments, it makes so much sense! I wish there were some who would listen to reason rather than make up their own semi-head-canon.
โNever forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.โ โ George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
But it really boils down to the above: Starfall makes it so you don't need to invent. You nailed it in one go. ::iwin::
I'd also add: Starfall makes it so you don't need to ignore parts of the novels, either.
It sounds like we may have converted SlyWren into a heretic! The trophy goes to you, lady! I really have been convinced it was Arthur and the "secret theory" for months now. Wish I had taken notes, but i figured it out about 8 months ago, I think? These facts are just more lagniappe. I still don't discount Ned and Wylla, though. And I'd love to lurk on Westeros if it happens
ETA: it was never confirmed to me this was the secret theory, I'm just ::: confident
โNever forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.โ โ George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
markg171SlyWren, these are the most compelling and logical arguments, it makes so much sense! I wish there were some who would listen to reason rather than make up their own semi-head-canon.
Don't get me wrong--they could be in the tower. Nothing in the text precludes it. But nothing in the text insists on it.
And, if they are in the tower, Ygritte's real ending to the Bael Tale and Sansa's trip to Baelish's unnamed tower on the way to the Eyrie are oddly specific details to include.
It sounds like we may have converted SlyWren into a heretic! The trophy goes to you, lady! I really have been convinced it was Arthur and the "secret theory" for months now. Wish I had taken notes, but i figured it out about 8 months ago, I think? These facts are just more lagniappe. I still don't discount Ned and Wylla, though. And I'd love to lurk on Westeros if it happens
I've never fully gotten the term "heretic." I get why Black Crow calls it that--but it just seems like "reading."
That said--I can still see a path to Rhaegar as father. The text doesn't preclude it. But, if it's Arthur, then Martin hasn't just spent time on multiple references tying Sansa and Arya into Lyanna's plot, and the Bael Tale ONLY for character development. He's actually been telling us stuff in every book. It's much easier.
Though it may turn out that he didn't want us to know anything--and is just setting us up for a huge shock. Which would be silly. But it's his sandbox.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Haha. The story of the daughter who jumped from the tower is a bards truth. She is said to have spent a year hiding in the crypts of Winterfell without sustenance, Or had a steady line of supplies to the crypt without anyone noticing. The crypt tale is just that; a tale.
Yup. The actual examples of stolen and hidden Stark maids are both "forced" into hiding: Sansa's been framed and is NOT happy about not being taken home. Arya's wanted. And is also not happy about not getting home.
What exactly happened in the tale? Apparently Bael didn't bother writing it. Other than the part Ygritte disclaims.
Coming back to the tower, I'm not saying that she did not jump but you never know.
Yup.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Indeed you did, ser. And insisted on putting "Jon's the Sword of the Morning" into my head.
Cheers can't say I came to that conclusion on my own, though. You know how heresy is.
You know what's funny, is that Jon being the SotM fit into my Other-beliefs for a long time, but it was always hard for me to rationalize him in the role with being on the fence, but leaning towards RLJ. the ptwp might be cool too, but we don't really know what he is... and, he wouldn't be a Westerosi hero. At least not like the SotM.
That 17 year hanging icicle is just too conspicuous for it not to be Jon's, but you never know.
Yes--the tower's connection to Mirri's tent ritual--that's hard to shake once you see it. And that fight at the tower feels like a magical turning point. Like Cersei's dream which starts the same way is a fatal turning point (either at the time--maybe--OR now that Cersei remembers it--which seems more likely). Same with Varamyr's dream with the same wording--a magical shift for him. And setting up the reader for Jon's turning point at the end of the novel.
Can definitely see it. But still, I think Mirri's tent ritual was more of an inverse, less an echo. Splitting hairs, I know, but that tent always felt like Dany's mind: the maegi, the dancing shadows, the stallion's sacrifice, Drogo's life/death, her own impending motherhood.... all of these things were already at odds with each other in Dany's heart/head. The tent just allows GRRM to trot them out in plain view and dance in barbaric splendor.
The reason I think it arranges itself as an inverse, rather than a parallel, is because Starfall seems to have housed two young mothers who gave up their hold on life. And, possibly, doing so in connection to giving birth their child/children.
That tent is quite the opposite. In it, with it, Dany is not giving up her hold on anything - except her child.
I think it goes back to the idea of "everything old is new again" in the novels. Multiples of every character. If Arthur is the father of Lyanna's child, and Ned is taking that child, Ashara and Lyanna's grief would be equally horrifying.
It would. Ned doesn't speak of Lyanna often, but he does speak of her. He never speaks of Ashara. Which is weird. Ashara is only mentioned in one of his POV chapters, though we know Cat confronted him once about her. Cersei did as well:
A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII "I shall wear that as a badge of honor," Ned said dryly. "Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?" "For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."
Lotta interesting stuff here. First, what if GRRM is using Cersei as an unlikely, accurate narrator, hidden in plain view? I'm a Ned+Ashara=Jon fan, but "Why was that?" indeed? NAJ is not exactly likely (given the "close as brothers" prayer, among other things)... but what if Ashara did kill herself because of the loss of her brother. It has always seemed a bit extreme of a reaction to me. I mean, the guy was a kingsguard knight for a mad man. The job had its perils. Could Ashara have been that heart-stricken over Arthur?
And, I agree with Arya, it seems stupid if she killed herself over Ned. Her child, I can understand a bit more, but even then, it is not like this society is not accustomed to high infant mortality rates. Though, if Ned were stealing her child, rather than it dying, I could see how that would be incredibly taxing on a parent's sanity. But if that were the case, Ned would likely have been the child's father - as Cersei suggests. Would a mother kill herself because the man she loved would be raising their child without her? Possible, but doesn't seem likely.
Another crackpot possibility that arises is a romantic relationship between Arthur and Ashara. This would tie a few loose ends together. First, it would help explain why Ashara was rumored to have had a daughter, and why said daughter might've come to resemble Dany. Dayne+Dayne ancestry would likely promote more Valyrian traits than Dayne genes alone. It would also explain why the daughter did not thrive, as incest often produces nonviable offspring. And lastly, it would explain why Ashara killed herself upon receiving Dawn from Ned, if she actually did, and if she actually loved her brother. Allyria would have been accurate in telling Edric that she died of a broken heart, etc.
But I don't like that crackpot, of course. Moving on to the other interesting tidbits...
"Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
We can think of any number of possible answers Ned could give to this question, right? Ned is waaay different from Robert, Cersei and Jaime... right?
I'm not as certain of this as I used to be. When faced with this very direct and simple question, with a seemingly endless number of answers, Ned only gives Cersei a single example.
"I do not kill children."
At this point, Ned knows that Robert has sired bastards all across Kings Landing and the Seven Kingdoms. He knows Jaime and Cersei have created their twincest bastards. And, he knows that Jaime and Cersei threw Bran from the window.
The only answer he gives her is that he doesn't kill children? Don't get me wrong, not killing children is a big deal and deserves high praise. But it seems to me like Ned is leaving out quite a bit about lust, infidelity, and bastardy...things Cersei just accused him of.
Lastly, what stands out to me about this confrontation is that Ned proceeds to tell Cersei to do almost exactly what Daenerys' guardian did with her. Now, I'm not proposing Ned=Willem Darry, but I am proposing Ned knew Darry's plans. (what do you think markg171 ?)
But I don't think they are the same--the key difference: wolf-maid. Arya thinks it's stupid for the lady to jump from a tower over her stupid prince. And even Sansa, thinking about the horror of Ned's murder, thinking about how her death would shame everyone (etc. etc.), just can't bring herself to do it.
Great point. I do not think Lyanna jumped, but she might've gotten herself pushed (figuratively speaking). That wolf-blood always gives me pause. And, she might've even pushed Ashara (literally speaking). Another crackpot: Ned returns with Dawn/news of Arthur's death, Lyanna and Ashara fight, Ashara is thrown from the tower, Lyanna is bloodied with gore. I'd be curious to hear Weasel Pie 's thoughts on this one too.
Ned's six also come to mind... Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion.
We know Howland Reed somehow gave Ned his victory over Arthur Dayne when Arthur was about to hand Winterfell to Benjen... What was Howland doing with Ashara while Ned was holding his dying sister?
And what of Ned's other men. Cersei assumes Ashara committed suicide over losing a lover, a brother, or a child. What if another cairn-covered man was her lover? Whent and Hightower are included in that group as well.
Haha. The story of the daughter who jumped from the tower is a bards truth. She is said to have spent a year hiding in the crypts of Winterfell without sustenance, Or had a steady line of supplies to the crypt without anyone noticing. The crypt tale is just that; a tale. Coming back to the tower, I'm not saying that she did not jump but you never know.
Well geeze, why even bring it up then Flagons!? LOL
Nope. Can't. And Cersei seems to give another clue in this direction as well. She doesn't come out and say Ned picked up Jon from Starfall, or accuse him of having a fetish for wetnurses, but she comes pretty close.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
That said--I can still see a path to Rhaegar as father. The text doesn't preclude it. But, if it's Arthur, then Martin hasn't just spent time on multiple references tying Sansa and Arya into Lyanna's plot, and the Bael Tale ONLY for character development. He's actually been telling us stuff in every book. It's much easier.
Then there's Edric's seemingly unnecessary introduction, to Arya of all people.
But yup, can still see the path to Rhaegar as well.
Though it may turn out that he didn't want us to know anything--and is just setting us up for a huge shock. Which would be silly. But it's his sandbox.
This still would not surprise me. Actually, no matter what his parentage is, I know for certain it will surprise me. Ned would surprise me. Not-Lyanna would surprise me. Arthur. Rhaegar. Ben. All of them would surprise me at this point.
Yup. The actual examples of stolen and hidden Stark maids are both "forced" into hiding: Sansa's been framed and is NOT happy about not being taken home. Arya's wanted. And is also not happy about not getting home.
True, but... Sansa and Arya are only riding the wolf-blood rollercoaster, just because the track curves north from time to time does not mean they want to go home. Both wanted to get stay from home, and only hoped to return to their pack once they got into trouble. I'm no paleo-veterinarian, but I'd be willing to bet dire she-wolf hindsight is 20/20.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
SlyWren, we just say heresy because most people think we're crackpots and don't go with the popular ideas
โNever forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.โ โ George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
He's actually been telling us stuff in every book. It's much easier.
Though it may turn out that he didn't want us to know anything--and is just setting us up for a huge shock. Which would be silly. But it's his sandbox.
HE HAS! Once you see it, you're like ::facepalm:: It's a lot more subtle than RLJ and a great way to pull the rug from the feet of the believers. How many KG broke their vows? Jaime of course and also before, but look at Oakheart in Dorne now! (It's oakheart right, the poor fellow?).
i like @superunknown5's essay, but I wish we had more of this. I think I even posted a reference I found to Dawn from a Clash chapter with Ygritte...
The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice.
also caught this:
cat in ACOK, she hates Jon...
Sweet it was, sweet and gone too soon. Dawn came cruel, a dagger of light.
Tyrion IV Clash: Jon is a crow, right
He spied the raven, dark in the dawn sky, and turned briskly toward the maze of shelves at the far end of the room.
and again Sam talking to Jon in Clash:
Well," said Sam, "yes, but . . . I'm not as frightened as I was, truly. The first night, every time I heard someone getting up to make water, I thought it was wildlings creeping in to slit my throat. I was afraid that if I closed my eyes, I might never open them again, only . . . well . . . dawn came after all."
Jon has been saving the day, but mayhaps I'm turning into an RLJ-er over Arthur now. The Starfall logistics and shitty tower used for cairns are more formidable evidence for me. I guess I should have posted some of this in the Arthur Dayne thread. Oops
โNever forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.โ โ George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
- Don't need to invent that Wylla spent months squeezing her tits by herself to artificially stimulate her breasts to produce milk to conveniently nurse Jon when Lyanna dies instead of just having given birth herself recently
The breast squeezing was the dumbest argument I'd heard on Westeros ever.
โNever forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.โ โ George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
If Starfall is known for its sword and Winterfell is known for its crypts, do the sword and the crypts go together--IE Jon's dream where the kings come out of their tombs?
Did the Daynes know about a potentially ancient connection with the Starks at Harrenhal? Did the Starks know of one?
Did Rhaegar figure out the connection between Dawn and the battle for the Dawn? If so, did he go with them to Starfall? Baelish leaves Dontos (the false knight) behind--well, dead. Did Rhaegar and Whent go with? Or elsewhere?
I will now stop asking questions we can't yet answer.
Is Dawn in the Crypts perhaps enticing Jon in his dreams like a lightsaber??
โNever forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.โ โ George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones