Literally fucking the maid or your best friend's sister (in this case Ashara happens to be both) are pretty much the oldest infidelity stories in the world. Rhaegar's looking for a broodmare, why would he look any further than the girl who's already there? The easiest person to cheat on Elia with is Ashara.
And I don't think the whole Rhaegar/Ashara needs to be really exclusive from Rhaegar/Lyanna. Again, Rhaegar's looking for a kid. I'm supposed to believe that not only didn't he fuck the sweet hot single Dornish girl who changes his bed every night and gossips with his wife over wine and just completely ignored her, but that he exclusively picked out only Lyanna and fucked her for a year until she was pregnant, all to get one more kid who isn't even the prince that was promised? Doesn't it make like 1000x more sense that Rhaegar was just fucking as many girls as possible to greatly increase his chances that one would get pregnant, rather than that he spent a year trying to get one girl pregnant? He could have had hundreds of heads of the dragon in the amount of time it supposedly took him to finally impregnate Lyanna if he simply spread out having sex with multiple women. It really makes no sense at all that he just fucked one girl in his quest to make another kid.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I am totally on board with Jon being Lyanna's son. I just don't believe he's Rhaegar's son too. I think Rhaegar DID have another child by someone not Elia, but it wasn't Jon.
I need to go back and tie in Ashara & Ned's movements during the war, and Dany's Dragonstone story - I think the pattern will emerge then. One point of interest: Dany's birth supposedly occurred somewhere in late spring/early summer if you go by the accepted timeline and "8-9 months" SSM, and of course people shout long and loud about the great storm, one of the worst in Westerosi history, that shattered the Targaryen fleet at anchor while Dany was being born.
However, if you go to the World Book (yeah yeah) and read the section on Storm's End, there's much talk about the fierce storms squalling up in the Narrow Sea that give that part of the kingdom its name.....and how all of those fierce storms occur in autumn. And yes, Dragonstone is a fur piece north of Storm's End, but the same logic applies: the Narrow Sea is basically the US Gulf of Mexico, and the storms in fall are like hurricane season in the southeastern US. While it's POSSIBLE for a huge hurricane to swirl up in May or June, it is far more LIKELY for a storm of ship-destroying capability to hit in late August or September. A fall timeline...like around the presumed timeline of the Sack of King's Landing.
He could have had hundreds of heads of the dragon in the amount of time it supposedly took him to finally impregnate Lyanna if he simply spread out having sex with multiple women.
I think you're going to like what happens in my Marvel Modern Arc theory, when I finally get around to finishing it.
I am totally on board with Jon being Lyanna's son. I just don't believe he's Rhaegar's son too. I think Rhaegar DID have another child by someone not Elia, but it wasn't Jon.
So wow! I feel like we (Mark, PP/BB, and maybe PoG and Mojo...who are 'liking' these posts) are pretty close to some consensus around Dany being the daughter of Ashara and Rhaegar. That is really frikken cool, and rare when we're spinning these yarns.
While I'm not ready to set this theory in stone, I am very confident in it. Confident enough to see where it leads. So here we go...
Dany is the daughter of Rhaegar Targaryen and Ashara Dayne. She now has all sorts of Hero heritage. She could be the prince that was promised (Remember Aemon, no genders for dragonkind), and be the third head of the dragon ("There must be one more..." and again, no gender for dragons). She could also be the Sword of the Morning IF women can be the Sword of the Morning ... but again, dragons are not bound by gender ... so she could be the SotM. She also carried the Stallion who Mounts the World, and used him as fuel for her alternative political campaign. And, of course, she also fits the archetype of Azor Ahai Reborn and Lightbringer.
Cool shit.
But what about Arthur Dayne? Regardless of how Jon fits into it, I'm pretty much sold on Arthur and Lyanna being a thing (otherwise, what the heck is Lyanna doing at Starfall, and yes, I've long doubled down on Lyanna being at Starfall ever since Weasel Pie 's not canon thread at the W). Anyway, this makes Lyanna the aunt Dany never had. The rebellion cost Dany quite dearly. She lost her mother Ashara, her father Rhaegar, and her aunt Lyanna that could have mended the division between rebels and loyalists. And really, Ned seems to behave as if this was indeed the case in AGOT. But I digress.
What about Jon and Ned? Well, might be markg171 was right all along. Ned is clearly tied to Wylla. Robert seems to clearly recall Ned being with a "common girl" at one time, and that she gave him a bastard. I doubt Robert would have called Ashara common, even if she were not a Dayne, and I find it strange Robert would not bring up Ashara if the two of them were actually ever a couple. So that leaves the woman honest Ned said, "Wylla." The same woman named by the Daynes of Starfall as Jon Snow's mother, and sure enough, she's a servant at Starfall. And a commoner.
So where does this take us?
Ned returned Dawn to Starfall. Ashara was already mourning the loss of her beautiful prince, and maybe also stressed out because of her brother's girlfriend was sick and dying. Her brother's white sword didn't cheer her up. Ned told her that her brother was dead, AND that her beautiful daughter would surely be hunted and killed for being Rhaegar's dragonspawn. But, they could pass her off as Viserys' little sister and ship her away. Heartbroken, she threw herself from the Palestone Sword tower. This, makes sense.
Motherless, Dany needs a wetnurse. Ned is trying to get "the little princess" to safety....Lyanna makes him promise to protect the niece she never had...then she dies. Now Ned is mourning. Robb taught us the one thing that makes sad direwolves happy...Ned fucks the wetnurse.
Jon is either Wylla's son or Lyanna's in this scenario, and really, it makes little difference. Jon was born at Starfall, is dark and dornish looking, and was raised by Ned. House Dayne names its heir after him - the man who has adopted either 1) the Son of the Sword of the Morning, or 2) the milkbrother of Daenerys - Ashara's daughter. In either case, Ned is protecting a child with intimate connections to House Dayne. Suddenly, Edric's name makes sense. And, even without Dayne-ish blood (in the case of Wylla being the mother), I could see House Dayne owing House Stark a debt it can never repay. So, they hang the longsword Dawn, and reserve it for a son of Winterfell...
Edit: Also, I can see why Lyanna would make Ned promise to protect Dany, if she were actually the cause of Rhaegar's death... which she most certainly was - regardless of the scenario. Might be time to chisel some stone. :::
Will come back to this later this evening with more comments/detail, but I was reading the R+A thread and saw Ser Dunc mention that fabled SSM where GRRM confirmed that Aerys is in fact Dany's biological father.
Does anyone know where this nugget of wisdom might be? I've looked and haven't found it - and am wondering if this is another example of "the app" rearing its ugly head, or fanon morphing into canon over the years.
If someone can unearth this SSM I will tuck my curly tail between my hocks on this issue and go about my business and pretend this conversation never happened.
Will come back to this later this evening with more comments/detail, but I was reading the R+A thread and saw Ser Dunc mention that fabled SSM where GRRM confirmed that Aerys is in fact Dany's biological father.
Does anyone know where this nugget of wisdom might be? I've looked and haven't found it - and am wondering if this is another example of "the app" rearing its ugly head, or fanon morphing into canon over the years.
If someone can unearth this SSM I will tuck my curly tail between my hocks on this issue and go about my business and pretend this conversation never happened.
Well, not so fast there. Even if the SSM is valid, we can swap Aerys for Rhaegar and have many of the same events take place. Ashara was the Beauty, mayhaps Aerys was her Beast.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
If someone can unearth this SSM I will tuck my curly tail between my hocks on this issue and go about my business and pretend this conversation never happened.
5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?
Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.
I'm still searching, but markg171, @serduncan, Weasel Pie...do you guys know where we might find the Aerys=Dany's father SSM?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Yep, that's the only one I've ever seen too...and it in no way precludes Rhaegar from being her father.
Exactly and cannon can always end up superseding SSM's...
Honestly, I think most people are so certain of Dany's ancestry that it isn't all that likely someone formulated a question with enough legs to get over Martin's Wall.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
And just to give markg171 some more credit, and ammo, it also makes perfect sense that honorable young Ned would purposefully impregnate Wylla so that she would have milk for Dany (even though some wetnurses can lactate anyway). Now, I'm just left wondering if Rhaegar was Ashara's promised prince, or if Aerys dishonored her at Harrenhal, or both.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Here is the first part of my workup on this...not very organized, but you'll get my drift.
Returning to this quote & piggybacking on a thought from the Echoes thread.
If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
So Rhaegar wins the tourney and crowns Lyanna as QoLaB...and apparently some time after, Ashara "looks to Stark."
Barristan wonders if Ashara would have looked to him had he won the tourney/chosen Ashara as QoLaB - implying that Ashara took note of the victor - a Stark - of the tournament.
Except no male Stark was victorious at Harrenhal. Of all the Starks present, only Lyanna could be considered a winner of sorts.
Doesn't make sense, does it?
So this begs the question: Did Ashara Dayne "look to" Lyanna Stark?
Have we been focusing in the wrong place?
Follow along with me here.
Why would Ashara "look to" the lone female wolf?
Barristan says:
Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided.
If Rhaegar as victor of the tourney had chosen his own wife instead of another woman, much war and woe might have been avoided....and Ashara might not have looked to Stark.
If Ashara was Rhaegar’s paramour with Elia’s permission, or if Ashara was Elia’s pregnancy surrogate, Ashara wouldn’t have a problem with Rhaegar crowning Elia…she’s already his wife, and Ashara is accustomed to that relationship. However, Rhaegar showing attention to a woman besides his wife? A woman that a paramour doesn’t know, one that might threaten her position? That’s a problem.
Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter ...
But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.
Rhaegar was the winner of the Harrenhal tourney. Rhaegar gave honors to Lyanna Stark. Ashara Dayne was dishonored at Harrenhal. Ashara had a stillborn daughter. Daenerys has Ashara's eyes. Ashara Dayne committed suicide after Ned brought news to Starfall - mad with grief over her child, and the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal. Grief, meaning over one who has died. Rhaegar died at the Trident.
Ashara was "not long at court" at Harrenhal. Ashara returned to Starfall at some point during the war. Did she leave voluntarily or was she sent away?
Precedent: From TWOIAF:
"It would later be rumoured that, on the night of Jaehaerys's coronation, Aerys took the maidenhead of Lady Joanna Lannister, who had come to court for the celebrations. There are rumours that Joanna had given her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of Jaehaerys' coronation, and briefly became Aerys' paramour after he ascended the throne himself. Not long thereafter, Joanna was dismissed by Queen Rhaella from her service in King's Landing. While Queen Rhaella turned a blind eye towards most of her husband's infidelities, she did not approve when it concerned one of her own "ladies." (Joanna was one of many ladies to be sent away from court.) She departed for Casterly Rock at once, and seldom visited King's Landing afterwards."
GRRM: "I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own)."
GRRM on Rhaegar/Elia's relationship: "It's complicated." Was Rhaegar using Ashara as bedwarmer? What if the answer is yes? And to take it further, what if she fell in love? Ashara sees Lyanna crowned at HH. Becomes jealous, targets Lyanna. Rats her out to....who? Aerys?
Elia births Rhaenys, bedridden for 6 months after. Recovers, possibly goes to Dorne (KWB encounter), attends tourney with no mention of pregnancy but miraculously has a new son a few months later, born on the privacy of Dragonstone. Where was Ashara during this time? Did Ashara give birth to baby Aegon? HotU vision: Dark-haired woman nursing a babe in a huge wooden bed - his is the song of ice and fire, "there must be one more" and pointed look at Dany.
Dany makes a lot more sense than Jon for Rhaegar+Ashara, I do admit. Jon is a weirwood direwolf, so there's a Stark parent one way or another.
you gotta admit the wolf in the tent dream meant something i'm not as good as the True Detectives yet, but that stood out to me as a huge clue. plus the foreshawdowing of Robb at the Red Wedding. Why? Are they related? Seems like no reason for a wolf to engage in a tent ritual for Dany for blood magic aince blood= family. I don't know who it is, but maybe Dany and Jon are twins like Leia and Luke, and as Lady Dyanna mentioned in her thread, Jon may be the next Darth Vader.
rygen, I'm tagging you again so you can feel comfortable discussing Star Wars along with ASOIAF...unless of course the chat threads are more fun for you, but I really think this is a great argument against R+L =/= J
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I'm reminded of Sansa's observations of Joffrey that made the lightbulb go on in Ned's head. Joffrey was nothing like his father, Robert. Dany is nothing like her father, Aerys
or ROBERT! Who here was the one that thought she was Robert's? goddamn I can't remember, but it was something like Ned protected him from killing her because he knew that he was hers, and at the end, Robert told Ned he was right. Not saying I'm completely convinced, but there's no book 6 out so...
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones