I'm supposed to believe that not only didn't he fuck the sweet hot single Dornish girl who changes his bed every night
OMG markg171!! have voice and I drawn you to the dark side?!?!?!
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
It really makes no sense at all that he just fucked one girl in his quest to make another kid.
you know i'm not an rlj fan, but it would make sense IF and ONLY IF there's a part of the story we're missing. Where he feels he needs the blood of the Starks somehow. It seems Targs may have warging abilities to some extent, and as far as we know in universe, only the Starks are kind of known for that. Even if it's like an open secret.
I'm almost afraid to contradict you right now...
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I like where this is going, but it's making my brain hurt again. Obviously Barristan was in love with Ashara, but it seems from the quote you mentioned he wanted her to look at a Stark. Mayhaps he was true to his vows, but saw the chemistry between Ned and Ashara, and hoped they would end up together? I don't know why she would look at Lyanna. From the books, her love was for Ned, Rhaegar could have seduced her with his triumph at the tourney, though. I don't know, maybe I've had cabin fever too long.
ETA: OMG! @prettypig , remember Jorah seduced his second wife, whoever that whore was, I can't remember, the Hightower girl because he kept winning the tourney!
PS OK, i don't understand, the dark haired woman nursing wouldn't be Ashara, she's got the Targ look. What did I miss? Please, explain like I"m 5.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
god i'm addicted to quick quote. i thought the consensus was that BRANDON who sired FEMALE BASTARDS may have dishonored Ashara at Harrenhall, yes, this is derailing quickly, but I'm still loving the discussion.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I really like where you all are going with this. I just wanted to say that I think that Sansa's ASOS chapter when Lysa attempts to throw her from the moon door is a hugely relevant echo. The problem is interpreting it correctly. What role does Littlefinger play? Ned? Rhaegar? Arthur? A combination? What about Marillion? And Catelyn's shade? This chapter is key. I'm just not sold on our interpretation quite yet.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I really like where you all are going with this. I just wanted to say that I think that Sansa's ASOS chapter when Lysa attempts to throw her from the moon door is a hugely relevant echo. The problem is interpreting it correctly. What role does Littlefinger play? Ned? Rhaegar? Arthur? A combination? What about Marillion? And Catelyn's shade? This chapter is key. I'm just not sold on our interpretation quite yet.
Good catch! And it will all be like OOOOOH YEEEEEAAAAAH! If (and I hope we do) find the truth of Ashara's 'fall'. unless of course she's Septa Mordane
/derail my own thread
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I really like where you all are going with this. I just wanted to say that I think that Sansa's ASOS chapter when Lysa attempts to throw her from the moon door is a hugely relevant echo. The problem is interpreting it correctly. What role does Littlefinger play? Ned? Rhaegar? Arthur? A combination? What about Marillion? And Catelyn's shade? This chapter is key. I'm just not sold on our interpretation quite yet.
Good catch! And it will all be like OOOOOH YEEEEEAAAAAH! If (and I hope we do) find the truth of Ashara's 'fall'. unless of course she's Septa Mordane
/derail my own thread
That's over half of the reason that I talked SlyWren into doing the reread of that chapter with me!
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Barristan wonders if Ashara would have looked to him had he won the tourney/chosen Ashara as QoLaB - implying that Ashara took note of the victor - a Stark - of the tournament.
Except no male Stark was victorious at Harrenhal. Of all the Starks present, only Lyanna could be considered a winner of sorts.
Doesn't make sense, does it?
So this begs the question: Did Ashara Dayne "look to" Lyanna Stark?
Have we been focusing in the wrong place?
Follow along with me here.
I was really hoping you were going to detail a graphic affair between Ashara and Lyanna, but this is cool, too. LOL
Rhaegar gave honors to Lyanna Stark. Ashara Dayne was dishonored at Harrenhal.
Nice catch. This works. Rhaegar dishonored Ashara by honoring Lyanna. Ashara looks to Lyanna. Learns there's nothing to learn, that Rhaegar did it for Arthur....
Ashara had a stillborn daughter. Daenerys has Ashara's eyes. Ashara Dayne committed suicide after Ned brought news to Starfall - mad with grief over her child, and the man who dishonored her at Harrenhal. Grief, meaning over one who has died. Rhaegar died at the Trident.
Yup. I still agree with Arya, that it is stupid if she killed herself over a dude. But, losing one's beloved, along with losing one's child... yeah. I can see that.
I still kind of like it more if Ned has just told her that Robert will surely hunt down her daughter - for being dragonspawn. Adds to the hopelessness/Catch 22 for the lovely Ashara.
GRRM: "I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own)."
GRRM on Rhaegar/Elia's relationship: "It's complicated." Was Rhaegar using Ashara as bedwarmer? What if the answer is yes? And to take it further, what if she fell in love? Ashara sees Lyanna crowned at HH. Becomes jealous, targets Lyanna. Rats her out to....who? Aerys?
Why did he mention Ashara's mobility and borrowed boats? :::
A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword. She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her. She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper's brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.
A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII "I shall wear that as a badge of honor," Ned said dryly. "Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
Elia births Rhaenys, bedridden for 6 months after. Recovers, possibly goes to Dorne (KWB encounter), attends tourney with no mention of pregnancy but miraculously has a new son a few months later, born on the privacy of Dragonstone. Where was Ashara during this time? Did Ashara give birth to baby Aegon? HotU vision: Dark-haired woman nursing a babe in a huge wooden bed - his is the song of ice and fire, "there must be one more" and pointed look at Dany.
you gotta admit the wolf in the tent dream meant something i'm not as good as the True Detectives yet, but that stood out to me as a huge clue. plus the foreshawdowing of Robb at the Red Wedding. Why? Are they related? Seems like no reason for a wolf to engage in a tent ritual for Dany for blood magic aince blood= family. I don't know who it is, but maybe Dany and Jon are twins like Leia and Luke, and as Lady Dyanna mentioned in her thread, Jon may be the next Darth Vader.
It does stand out, doesn't it? Why are Starks represented in a place where a child-woman with Ashara's eyes is giving birth? Hmm... I'm a-thinking Dany owed her life to Ned.
PS OK, i don't understand, the dark haired woman nursing wouldn't be Ashara, she's got the Targ look. What did I miss? Please, explain like I"m 5.
Ashara has haunting purple eyes, but not Targaryen hair:
A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty … Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab. Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …
god i'm addicted to quick quote. i thought the consensus was that BRANDON who sired FEMALE BASTARDS may have dishonored Ashara at Harrenhall, yes, this is derailing quickly, but I'm still loving the discussion.
Brandon remains a very viable candidate in this scenario. If it was more complicated than a "dishonoring", it might be that Ashara was actually mourning for Brandon...
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I was really hoping you were going to detail a graphic affair between Ashara and Lyanna, but this is cool, too. LOL
Oh, I thought about it. I really, really thought about it! And I am not ruling it out, a big torrid lesbo affair between the two ladies (who I believe to BOTH be handmaidens to Elia, I might add) would totally be up GRRM's pervy alley.
Hell, it might even make a better story - Ashara gets mad at the tourney crowning because she thought her hot wild wolf girlfriend was cheating on her with Blondie Dragonson. Rhaegar turns out to be a big supporter of the sapphic arts and decides to help out his "ladies". This is made even more poignant if Rhaegar himself is actually the QUEEN of Dragonstone and is a big flamer himself. Gay pride for the win!
I really like where you all are going with this. I just wanted to say that I think that Sansa's ASOS chapter when Lysa attempts to throw her from the moon door is a hugely relevant echo. The problem is interpreting it correctly. What role does Littlefinger play? Ned? Rhaegar? Arthur? A combination? What about Marillion? And Catelyn's shade? This chapter is key. I'm just not sold on our interpretation quite yet.
Moon Door right away sounds like an antagonist of Dawn - the entrance of the Sun. The two enjoy a symbiotic relationship, of course.
Sansa is a Moon Maiden, like Ashara and Lyanna (bit of a stretch, but not that much... I mean the Moon is the one constant when winter fell and stars fall...), and:
Jon glimpsed the red wanderer above, watching them through the leafless branches of great trees as they made their way beneath. The Thief, the free folk called it. The best time to steal a woman was when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, Ygritte had always claimed.
Littlefinger is the Thief of Birds (Sansa, House Arryn, Lysa...cuckoo bird lol). Ned is the Thief of Towers (joy, Palestone Sword) or Children (Jon, Theon, maybe Dany). Rhaegar is portrayed as the Thief of Maidens (Lyanna, Ashara), but I would name him a Thief of Tournaments (both literally, like Ser John the Fiddler, and figuratively in the game of thrones). Arthur is either the Thief of Winter Roses, or the Thief of Palestone Swords (Dawn belongs to Night's King dammit! LOL). Marillion represents the innocence of the Bard, but Bard's truth is different than prose.
I'm not sure what you mean by Catelyn's shade in the Moon Door chapter, unless we're talking about Tyrion's trial.
I would add that Lysa is effectively portrayed as a glorified wetnurse. And, Cat doesn't find it in her heart to love the wetnurse's son, even though he is technically family.
Good catch! And it will all be like OOOOOH YEEEEEAAAAAH! If (and I hope we do) find the truth of Ashara's 'fall'. unless of course she's Septa Mordane
/derail my own thread
It is a slight derail, but very much related to Jon at Starfall. Once you start unraveling the milkbrother mystery, it looks like there might be a milksister mystery as well.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Sansa is a Moon Maiden, like Ashara and Lyanna (bit of a stretch, but not that much... I mean the Moon is the one constant when winter fell and stars fall...)
As is Lysa. The one point that I feel fairly confident on is Sansa being an echo of Lyanna and Lysa of Ashara in this scene.
Post by regular jon umber on Jan 26, 2016 8:30:39 GMT
One thing I'd like to throw into this awesome mix is the fact that Ned is in Dorne a long time - at least 9 months. I say this because more than one person (Cersei, Robert) say that he fathered Jon on someone in Dorne. So he's there long enough to do the deed and bring back a baby. So there's lots of time for all sorts of machinations. In fact, Ned would be returning at about the same time Dany is being born (wherever that may be).
Isn't it ironic Theon may have murdered his own bastards and now can't have heirs?
Never made that connection!
Yes it is! Damn. No wonder Theon's been so screwed.
Really? I thought that that one was a tad obvious. Not so much the older boy (as Theon would've been too young to sire him) but the younger boy most definitely.
And just to give markg171 some more credit, and ammo, it also makes perfect sense that honorable young Ned would purposefully impregnate Wylla so that she would have milk for Dany (even though some wetnurses can lactate anyway). Now, I'm just left wondering if Rhaegar was Ashara's promised prince, or if Aerys dishonored her at Harrenhal, or both.
Except we do have an SSM saying that Jon is older than Dany.