One thing I'd like to throw into this awesome mix is the fact that Ned is in Dorne a long time - at least 9 months. I say this because more than one person (Cersei, Robert) say that he fathered Jon on someone in Dorne. So he's there long enough to do the deed and bring back a baby. So there's lots of time for all sorts of machinations. In fact, Ned would be returning at about the same time Dany is being born (wherever that may be).
I think Allyria Dayne might be the Ned byproduct in Dorne.
One thing I'd like to throw into this awesome mix is the fact that Ned is in Dorne a long time - at least 9 months. I say this because more than one person (Cersei, Robert) say that he fathered Jon on someone in Dorne. So he's there long enough to do the deed and bring back a baby. So there's lots of time for all sorts of machinations. In fact, Ned would be returning at about the same time Dany is being born (wherever that may be).
I think Allyria Dayne might be the Ned byproduct in Dorne.
It would make sense as to why she was told the Ashara loved Ned story.
True, but that is semi-canon. In all seriousness is GRRM'S answer in this SSM supposed to be from the knowledge of in-world characters or a fact from the author?
Oops! I quoted the wrong post. This was meant to be a response to the question of Jon and Dany's birth timelines.
I thought as much. In any case the question was how much older was Jon than Dany. He said approximately 8 - 9 months. Which always stood out to me that Jon and Dany--should they share a mother, had enough time for one to be born, and the other to be conceived rather quickly (especially if a wetnurse was used for Jon) and Dany was born just a tad little premature and caused a lot of problems. If anything his answer to me always made my mind jump that the possibility that Jon and Dany share a mother was in the cards.
Like say, if Lyanna was abducted just after getting pregnant and Rhaegar had to wait for Lyanna to give birth to Jon before he could get the Visenya he wanted.
In all seriousness is GRRM'S answer in this SSM supposed to be from the knowledge of in-world characters
It has to be in-world characters seeing as the SSM derives itself from someone having taken Jon and Dany's supposed name days and decided that they were born a year apart, and then GRRM responded back that it's more 8-9 months. So the SSM's based off the presented name days in the books.
Still could be straight from the horse's mouth truth, but the question centered on information from in-world characters and what they know. And all too often the actual question of the SSM gets completely ignored when the question is just as important as the answer seeing as an answer without its context means nothing.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Do we really know for sure Rickard was already heading towards Riverrun?
It's from the app. Don't believe it however because that passage says that Brandon left Catelyn to go meet Rickard's party, and then after they'd met up and were heading back to Riverrun it claims that Brandon heard about Lyanna and raced off with his companions.
And that's just well ridiculous. How could Brandon find out or do anything like what he did, if he were with Rickard? There's no way in hell Rickard lets Brandon ride off, or that Brandon finds out about Lyanna before Rickard does.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Do we really know for sure Rickard was already heading towards Riverrun?
It's from the app. Don't believe it however because that passage says that Brandon left Catelyn to go meet Rickard's party, and then after they'd met up and were heading back to Riverrun it claims that Brandon heard about Lyanna and raced off with his companions.
And that's just well ridiculous. How could Brandon find out or do anything like what he did, if he were with Rickard? There's no way in hell Rickard lets Brandon ride off, or that Brandon finds out about Lyanna before Rickard does.
Further, we get more information I believe from the app/World Book which states that Hoster was rather upset by Brandon running off, which might suggest that by the time Brandon got word, he'd already mostly gone to Riverrun.
But yeah, that always bugged me. If Rickard is with Brandon when Brandon finds out about Lyanna--why the fucking hell would Rickard let his son and heir do anything about it?
I mean, mayhaps Brandon snuck off in the night... but even so--why didn't Rickard try to stop his son...
It just makes more problems than it solves--which they were obviously trying to reconcile the fact that there was a duel between Petyr and Brandon at a specific time, and they were trying to sneak it in as late as possible.
Hey guys, this is totally my fault because I got distracted with all the great ideas, but we need to go back on topic now. I don't know where we slid off or if we need to make new threads for the new subjects because i love everyone's ideas. I won't move any posts, but if anyone has any ideas about other topics presented in this thread to talk about to stay organized, we can start new convos and merge them.
/mod who forgets to mod
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
That'd be awesome, but according to SSM, Dawn is still hanging in the south at Starfall, until the next SotM rises.
Yes--I don't think it is there.
But I'm thinking more and more Jon will need to take Dawn into the crypts. The dream where the kings come out of the tombs--that just seems so very Aragorn and the Men of Dunharrow-ish. A move Aragorn makes after getting Anduril reforged. After Boromir hears the voice in the west (vs. Dawn) calling to "seek the sword that was broken. In Imladris it dwells." And if the map ends up being at all accurate, Starfall is in a river "valley"--still has red mountains on either side until the Torrentine dumps into the sea.
Stopping Tolkien references now.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Nice. Also I think there was a Kermit Tully in the World Book.
Yes--
Kermit Tully
Son of Elmo Tully
Elmo only became Lord on the death of Grover Tully
So, just how much were they all smoking when they wrote this portion of the World Book?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
You know what's funny, is that Jon being the SotM fit into my Other-beliefs for a long time, but it was always hard for me to rationalize him in the role with being on the fence, but leaning towards RLJ. the ptwp might be cool too, but we don't really know what he is... and, he wouldn't be a Westerosi hero. At least not like the SotM.
That 17 year hanging icicle is just too conspicuous for it not to be Jon's, but you never know.
Yes, RLJ makes it hard to see other things. I had someone insist that the parallels between the end of the Bael Tale and Ned's Fight/Arthur's Death/ Ashara's suicide were just random connections. If they did mean anything, it just meant that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. I couldn't follow the argument.
Can definitely see it. But still, I think Mirri's tent ritual was more of an inverse, less an echo. Splitting hairs, I know, but that tent always felt like Dany's mind: the maegi, the dancing shadows, the stallion's sacrifice, Drogo's life/death, her own impending motherhood.... all of these things were already at odds with each other in Dany's heart/head. The tent just allows GRRM to trot them out in plain view and dance in barbaric splendor.
The reason I think it arranges itself as an inverse, rather than a parallel, is because Starfall seems to have housed two young mothers who gave up their hold on life. And, possibly, doing so in connection to giving birth their child/children.
That tent is quite the opposite. In it, with it, Dany is not giving up her hold on anything - except her child.
1. Hadn't thought of the tent as being a mirror/glimpse into Dany's mind. Will re-read and get back to you--but that sounds very cool.
2. I agree on the inverse--self-sacrifice vs. ordering the sacrifice of something else. What happens at the tower and Starfall reads more like a non-ritualized ritual (I sound like Rumsfeld's Known Unknowns But hopefully you take my point).
Lotta interesting stuff here. First, what if GRRM is using Cersei as an unlikely, accurate narrator, hidden in plain view? I'm a Ned+Ashara=Jon fan, but "Why was that?" indeed? NAJ is not exactly likely (given the "close as brothers" prayer, among other things)... but what if Ashara did kill herself because of the loss of her brother. It has always seemed a bit extreme of a reaction to me. I mean, the guy was a kingsguard knight for a mad man. The job had its perils. Could Ashara have been that heart-stricken over Arthur?
And, I agree with Arya, it seems stupid if she killed herself over Ned. Her child, I can understand a bit more, but even then, it is not like this society is not accustomed to high infant mortality rates. Though, if Ned were stealing her child, rather than it dying, I could see how that would be incredibly taxing on a parent's sanity. But if that were the case, Ned would likely have been the child's father - as Cersei suggests. Would a mother kill herself because the man she loved would be raising their child without her? Possible, but doesn't seem likely.
My best guess is that it's a combo. The totality of it all coming in on her and she snapped. We see Sansa almost get there when reliving Ned's death--but she's both afraid and a wolf. Ashara might not have been up to it. All of it at once.
And I agree re: Cersei. That was a good way to get it in. That her account matches Cat's memory is also helpful. They have part of the truth. But it could be a partial truth--a Dayne and a Stark. Just not the one Cersei and Cat think it is.
Another crackpot possibility that arises is a romantic relationship between Arthur and Ashara. This would tie a few loose ends together. First, it would help explain why Ashara was rumored to have had a daughter, and why said daughter might've come to resemble Dany. Dayne+Dayne ancestry would likely promote more Valyrian traits than Dayne genes alone. It would also explain why the daughter did not thrive, as incest often produces nonviable offspring. And lastly, it would explain why Ashara killed herself upon receiving Dawn from Ned, if she actually did, and if she actually loved her brother. Allyria would have been accurate in telling Edric that she died of a broken heart, etc.
But I don't like that crackpot, of course. Moving on to the other interesting tidbits...
Yeah--I don't like this either. But I do think there's a chance of a love affair with Rheagar. Arya's hearing a song about a stupid lady throwing herself from a tower over her stupid prince.
Not much to go on, but maybe. Dany??? Jon and Dany not Targ aunt and nephew, but Dayne cousins?
The only answer he gives her is that he doesn't kill children? Don't get me wrong, not killing children is a big deal and deserves high praise. But it seems to me like Ned is leaving out quite a bit about lust, infidelity, and bastardy...things Cersei just accused him of.
Yes, he could go on. But Ned's hardly verbose. And the attack on Bran is the key point in this scene. That's the thing she did that he finds so vile in this moment. So. .. would a laundry list of her sins help all that much???
Great point. I do not think Lyanna jumped, but she might've gotten herself pushed (figuratively speaking). That wolf-blood always gives me pause. And, she might've even pushed Ashara (literally speaking). Another crackpot: Ned returns with Dawn/news of Arthur's death, Lyanna and Ashara fight, Ashara is thrown from the tower, Lyanna is bloodied with gore. I'd be curious to hear WeaselPie 's thoughts on this one too.
Yes, an attack on Lyanna's possible, too-- that's one of Lady Dyanna's theories. That Lysa's anger at Sansa echoes Ashara's at Lyanna. I'd add that it also echoes Lady Barbrey's anger in the crypts in front of Lyanna's tomb.
But if there's wolf-blood fault, I'm more likely to think it echoes Sansa and Arya--making foolish, impulsive moves that get them into scrapes far worse than they deserve.
That might have come off more snarky than I intended. But really--are any of the arguments on Heresy or here really "heretical" in terms of the text itself?
Then there's Edric's seemingly unnecessary introduction, to Arya of all people.
I re-read that during the Westeros Arthur Heresy debate--the way Edric is presented, with Arya (Lyanna echo) starting at hearing Beric call him Ned. Her first into to his name and she thinks of Eddard. Then, during the battle, she thinks she should be able to fight like him. Then the convo--how he tells her he wanted to meet her father. Her reactions to him. He brings up Ashara--again. AFTER we've had the Bael Tale in Clash.
I can't think of ANY reason for all of that to be in the novel save to draw a big red (or purple) circle around the tie between Winterfell and Starfall. And to Jon in particular.
This still would not surprise me. Actually, no matter what his parentage is, I know for certain it will surprise me. Ned would surprise me. Not-Lyanna would surprise me. Arthur. Rhaegar. Ben. All of them would surprise me at this point.
True, but... Sansa and Arya are only riding the wolf-blood rollercoaster, just because the track curves north from time to time does not mean they want to go home. Both wanted to get stay from home, and only hoped to return to their pack once they got into trouble. I'm no paleo-veterinarian, but I'd be willing to bet dire she-wolf hindsight is 20/20.
Ah!! I did not express myself feel. The above is what I meant. Once the Stark maids are in hiding (after impulsive behavior) they have major buyer's remorse.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
HE HAS! Once you see it, you're like It's a lot more subtle than RLJ and a great way to pull the rug from the feet of the believers. How many KG broke their vows? Jaime of course and also before, but look at Oakheart in Dorne now! (It's oakheart right, the poor fellow?).
The palm print on my face from when I realized that Marillion is the singer who takes the fall for others' plotting only recently faded. It's just right there.
And yes, it's Oakheart--whose only purpose seems to be to show a breakdown of a good KG in the face of plotting and seduction.
I think I even posted a reference I found to Dawn from a Clash chapter with Ygritte...
The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice.
YUP! Jon gets rewarded for rejecting the fire of Craster's keep--first, Ghost gets him rabbits for dinner. Then he wakes up to the magic of ice at dawn--a magic that transforms and ties him to his family.
Jon has been saving the day, but mayhaps I'm turning into an RLJ-er over Arthur now. The Starfall logistics and shitty tower used for cairns are more formidable evidence for me. I guess I should have posted some of this in the Arthur Dayne thread. Oops
Yeah--I get a bit crazy with the Dawn references, too. Hard not to overdo once you see it. Putting them in context helps.
And you are the one who pointed out the "Sword of the Morning still hung in the south" quote to me. Put into context--and my first OP practically wrote itself.
But if we are discussing whether or not Jon was born at Starfall, the role of Arthur has to be considered, period.
And I'm out of time. . . back as soon as I can.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
YUP! Jon gets rewarded for rejecting the fire of Craster's keep--first, Ghost gets him rabbits for dinner. Then he wakes up to the magic of ice at dawn--a magic that transforms and ties him to his family.
Do you notice *i'm sure you do, as a sly little wren that you are* that the quote i referenced sounds like it could be describing a sword if you didn't know it was describing dawn instead of Dawn?
The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice.
ETA: do we have a physical description for Dawn in the books? It would be neat if it did shimmer with like coats of glass and had a pommel encrusted with emeralds and diamonds
ETA 2: Mods: IS this considered a derailment? It's hard for me to keep the relevance of the connections of Dawn with Jon away from evidence of him being born at Starfall. But if you want to uh...mod me...feel free to let me know and I can move my sword posts.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Do you notice *i'm sure you do, as a sly little wren that you are* that the quote i referenced sounds like it could be describing a sword if you didn't know it was describing dawn instead of Dawn?
It does sound like it's describing a sword--especially with the "blade of grass" part.
The descriptions of Dawn tend to focus on the blade. Only reference I could find to the hilt are when Ned notes that it's sticking up over Arthur's shoulder before the fight at the tower. But no description of it.
Still--the ice is transformative IN the dawn. It's part of Jon's reward (I think) for not staying the night in Craster's Keep.
So there is magic beyond the Wall after all. He found himself thinking of his sisters, perhaps because he'd dreamed of them last night. Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it, but Arya would run out laughing and shouting, wanting to touch it all.
Icy dawn=magic beyond the Wall. And, in that moment, Gilly comes to talk to him. As she's speaking, he notes that the magic is passing. He's about to get info on Craster--potentially on the Others. Connected to the icy, magical dawn. Something's up with that.
ETA: do we have a physical description for Dawn in the books? It would be neat if it did shimmer with like coats of glass and had a pommel encrusted with emeralds and diamonds
"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
That seems to be the definitive description. So, not "coats of glass" but definitely "milkglass."
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Right, cuz Aerys never killed anyone in a righteous rage, and didn't abuse his dragonblood's power on those that didn't fall into line with his visions of what things should be, or use magics to achieve his aims, or anything like that. Right?
LOL! Well, it's still her grandfather... Haha
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."