Yes I am! I'm wondering if that's one of the reasons the direwolves and the ravens and crows have survived when the lions and other magical animals have not. And the Starks are liminal people with their crypt--no way around it.
No way around it. Starks are like stars in the dark, eyes on a tree, wolves when darkness falls.
So--are dragons liminal? Or just pure fire made flesh? The origin of Dany's dragons crossed a number of liminal spaces.
Dragons are beyond my pay grade. They sure seem to be all fire though. The origins though, yes - particularly for Dany's three. Can't dismiss that dusky comet (that Bran saw stirring beneath the sunrise ::flag wave:: ).
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Post by regular jon umber on Feb 1, 2016 7:33:39 GMT
Hey BB, thanks for Inceptioning me and stealing my idea! I always wanted a place to keep all the actually useful SSMs I'll go look through my bookmarks to see what I kept.
In a Song of Ice and Fire (or ADWD) we have two sources of magic descending on Westeros from opposing directions.
This only hardens my belief that the two sources (ice and fire) are essentially being wielded by two opposing sides: the children (earth and water) and men (bronze and iron).
(7) TREBLA COMMENT OF R&L THEORY TO PARRIS: Trebla proceeded to talk about the R&L theory and how he believes it, hoping for a tidbit. HER REPLY (paraphrasing): Do you really think George would do something so basic as Jon being the son of R&L? *Trebla's jaw dropping open*
Aaaah, I've been looking for this everywhere!
I'd love to know, from anyone who has read GRRMs other work, why she might say this? Are there solid examples of George doing something 'not basic' where a 'basic' answer could have been assumed?
Well, partly. Valyria is still there, as you can see from the maps. But it wasn't always on an island. [explore physical geographical connection to Asshai]
I always thought it was obvious that it had broken off from 'the land of always summer' a la the arm of Dorne.
Hey BB, thanks for Inceptioning me and stealing my idea! I always wanted a place to keep all the actually useful SSMs I'll go look through my bookmarks to see what I kept.
HA! I'm just glad to hear there's someone else with a "When I get around to it" project that they never got around to! Makes me feel better.
Please, dump in whatever you have. I haven't gone through many of the articles yet (figured the real meaty stuff will come out in chat and mail), or any of the video interviews. FWIW, I am on the hunt for 1) where GRRM confirms that the woman in the HotU vision is Elia, 2) that Aerys is Dany's bio-dad, and 3) "the child in the vision is dead" w/r/t Aegon in the HotU. (I've actually laid eyes on the last one, but can't find it...the former two I think are fanfic that became reality.)
I also asked about the Darkstar who interested me a lot in AFFC. (I'm not calling him a favorite, because all of my other favorites have been killed). George said that he is from a lesser branch of the Daynes. Cousin to Edric, Arthur and Ashara. He has his own castle somewhere and does not reside at Starfall.
I'm curious about this because AFFC's appendix states that Darkstar is only Edric's cousin (as well as his bannerman), and not that he's Arthur and Ashara's. Meaning that he's Arthur and Ashara's brother's son and their nephew if he's just Edric's cousin. Him being all their cousins would be that he's just some random lesser Dayne and is loosely their "cousin" (like Robert and Rhaegar).
Which I don't believe at all. Again, he's listed as only Edric's cousin. Why not also list him as the other Dayne's cousins as well if he actually was? But there's three other huge things that makes me disbelieve that he's just a lesser Dayne which I've mentioned before:
- Arianne calls him a knight of Starfall when she introduces him to Myrcella. Meaning that Darkstar's originally from Starfall (so then how did he get High Hermitage if he's not born there?). - There's absolutely zero history of High Hermitage. It's never had any past Knight of High Hermitage, or ever even existed before Darkstar as far as all the information we have. TWOIAF has absolutely zero mention of it despite covering Dorne and the Daynes, and no one ever mentions anything about it other than that it's Darkstar's castle. It's entirely Darkstar's. He's the first and only ever Knight of High Hermitage as far as we can tell, which means that there is no such thing as a "lesser" branch of House Dayne: Darkstar is from the main branch, just like Arianne said when she called him a knight of Starfall. - Despite being Edric's bannerman, Darkstar actually seems to be just as powerful as the Lord of Starfall, if not more so. Doran calls him the most dangerous man in Dorne as we all know, but Arianne also mentions that if House Yronwood opposes her that Darkstar will smash them. House Yronwood is supposedly the second most powerful house in Dorne... so how could Darkstar smash them unless he's also extremely powerful himself? It seems that Darkstar possesses enormous power despite just being some random landed knight and bannerman.
So I'm rather wary of this SSM as it doesn't seem to fit with certain info, and lack of info, from the books. And it's transcribed and not GRRM's actual words which creates a bunch of problems for whether it's accurate or not.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
I also asked about the Darkstar who interested me a lot in AFFC. (I'm not calling him a favorite, because all of my other favorites have been killed). George said that he is from a lesser branch of the Daynes. Cousin to Edric, Arthur and Ashara. He has his own castle somewhere and does not reside at Starfall.
I'm curious about this because AFFC's appendix states that Darkstar is only Edric's cousin (as well as his bannerman), and not that he's Arthur and Ashara's. Meaning that he's Arthur and Ashara's brother's son and their nephew if he's just Edric's cousin. Him being all their cousins would be that he's just some random lesser Dayne and is loosely their "cousin" (like Robert and Rhaegar).
I don't think 'Cousin' means a literal first cousin. Don't the Karstarks refer to themselves as Stark cousins? I think it's a catch-all term for any near or distant relative.
- Arianne calls him a knight of Starfall when she introduces him to Myrcella. Meaning that Darkstar's originally from Starfall (so then how did he get High Hermitage if he's not born there?).
It could be that High Hermitage is sworn to Starfall, and thus he is a knight of Starfall (as he would be a knight Dorne, and then of Westeros, in turn).
- Despite being Edric's bannerman, Darkstar actually seems to be just as powerful as the Lord of Starfall, if not more so. Doran calls him the most dangerous man in Dorne as we all know, but Arianne also mentions that if House Yronwood opposes her that Darkstar will smash them. House Yronwood is supposedly the second most powerful house in Dorne... so how could Darkstar smash them unless he's also extremely powerful himself? It seems that Darkstar possesses enormous power despite just being some random landed knight and bannerman.
This is quite interesting - perhaps he is a commander in charge of the Starfall soldiers?
If the Others are not others, then how can they not appear for 2000 more years?
Well, that's another story. But suffice it to say, for now, that this is reconcilable. If we are speaking of canon and the books as published, the Pact came long before the Others. That is not a disqualification of the a Others as selves.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I'm curious about this because AFFC's appendix states that Darkstar is only Edric's cousin (as well as his bannerman), and not that he's Arthur and Ashara's. Meaning that he's Arthur and Ashara's brother's son and their nephew if he's just Edric's cousin. Him being all their cousins would be that he's just some random lesser Dayne and is loosely their "cousin" (like Robert and Rhaegar).
I don't think 'Cousin' means a literal first cousin. Don't the Karstarks refer to themselves as Stark cousins? I think it's a catch-all term for any near or distant relative.
- Arianne calls him a knight of Starfall when she introduces him to Myrcella. Meaning that Darkstar's originally from Starfall (so then how did he get High Hermitage if he's not born there?).
It could be that High Hermitage is sworn to Starfall, and thus he is a knight of Starfall (as he would be a knight Dorne, and then of Westeros, in turn).
- Despite being Edric's bannerman, Darkstar actually seems to be just as powerful as the Lord of Starfall, if not more so. Doran calls him the most dangerous man in Dorne as we all know, but Arianne also mentions that if House Yronwood opposes her that Darkstar will smash them. House Yronwood is supposedly the second most powerful house in Dorne... so how could Darkstar smash them unless he's also extremely powerful himself? It seems that Darkstar possesses enormous power despite just being some random landed knight and bannerman.
This is quite interesting - perhaps he is a commander in charge of the Starfall soldiers?
Agreed. These points are supported by the text, Medium Jon:
A Game of Thrones - Bran I
Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly. "He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die. "One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I always thought it was obvious that it had broken off from 'the land of always summer' a la the arm of Dorne.
Wait--so could that be a way to "end" the Others--sever the Land of Always Winter from the North at the hinge? Can the cold "overdo" itself like the Valyrians did with fire?
Dragons are beyond my pay grade. They sure seem to be all fire though. The origins though, yes - particularly for Dany's three. Can't dismiss that dusky comet (that Bran saw stirring beneath the sunrise ).
Agreed--though the Targs may be like the Starks--liminal. And they have to decide whether or not to wake the dragon. Once that's done, the wings sprout, the threshold of the door is crossed. And they die in the black armor?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Wait--so could that be a way to "end" the Others--sever the Land of Always Winter from the North at the hinge? Can the cold "overdo" itself like the Valyrians did with fire?
Certainly makes you wonder exactly what went on at Hardhome, doesn't it?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Not the sharpest, but the only one that isn't blind! Bran needed to have his third eye opened by a crow. I wonder if Jon's was always open.
It seems to me Jon doesn't have much trouble trusting in his instincts. Nor does he seem to need much convincing that there be power in the old powers.
Gotta be. Else, why call them grey, with a grey direwolf as their sigil....and have them howling on about how winter is coming (aka, "liminal processes are constant").
Agreed--though the Targs may be like the Starks--liminal. And they have to decide whether or not to wake the dragon. Once that's done, the wings sprout, the threshold of the door is crossed. And they die in the black armor?
I could see that. I see Targs a bit differently, though now that I think about it, even my notion of them seems rather liminal. I tend to view Targs as moths drawn to the flame. Some just dance around the light. Some are wise, and take perch near enough to gaze not not near enough to burn. Then some are too consumed by the glory, and fly right into it.
That is yet another liminal space, I reckon.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
It seems to me Jon doesn't have much trouble trusting in his instincts. Nor does he seem to need much convincing that there be power in the old powers.
An arsenal of liminal spaces...waking/dreaming.
He follows Ghost OUT of the magic circle into the dark. To find frozen fire.
I could see that. I see Targs a bit differently, though now that I think about it, even my notion of them seems rather liminal. I tend to view Targs as moths drawn to the flame. Some just dance around the light. Some are wise, and take perch near enough to gaze not not near enough to burn. Then some are too consumed by the glory, and fly right into it.
That is yet another liminal space, I reckon.
True--but given what we've seen of Rickon and Varamyr, not to mention stories of beastlings--sounds like wargs cane be drawn to the . . . fur.
Huh--I now have an unfortunate image in my head of Starks as furries.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.