is that when she births those dragons--no moon. Only comet. The moon is gone the night she smothers Drogo. As though she's stopped being purely moon and is instead the comet????
It is interesting. We probably should discuss these when we get to those chapters (as it would be more grounded). I am reading GoT now, I'll keep an eye for this.
Lady Dyanna, SlyWren, The thing that bothers me, is William Darry is a Master of Arms! There is no way that the man who raised Dany and Vyserys can be William Darry, if this boy is quite so useless with a sword. Even baby Stark has started training, and he's what, three? It doesn't make sense.
I was thinking exactly the same thing. But it might also be because he never had a sword of his own so he has lost his skills as a result.
But . . . is there evidence of a Targ loyalism in any of the great houses? I'm drawing a blank.
Well, didn't the Darrys (Does the change the y to ie rule still apply for a surname?) have blank spaces on the wall from where they hastily removed Targaryan hangings prior to Robert's impromptu visit?
I am commenting really late but your comment ignited a thought, although you might have discussed it before and in more depth?
Not too late at all. Luckily, SlyWren has answered you already. Most of my thoughts on this have come from past discussion and observation with voice and LmL.
What's interesting to me, though, is that when she births those dragons--no moon. Only comet. The moon is gone the night she smothers Drogo. As though she's stopped being purely moon and is instead the comet????
Well, that would match with LmL's idea that she transitions from moon maiden to solar king at this point.
Butterbumps, SlyWren, The thing that bothers me, is William Darry is a Master of Arms! There is no way that the man who raised Wildfire and Vyserys can be William Darry, if this boy is quite so useless with a sword. Even baby Stark has started training, and he's what, three? It doesn't make sense
No. It really doesn't, does it? I guess that an argument could be made that Ser Willum was too ill or didn't have the proper resources to train Viserys properly, but it does seem like that would be something that was seen as fairly important.
Finally, SlyWren, someone (Sorry! Bird brain moment!) does have a theory about the Valyrians having something to do with the Queens of the Silver Sea, and those Queens as ancient consorts of the Khals?? Maybe?
I know that Evolett discusses this on her blog and it makes a lot of sense. She suggests that the Fisher Queens were the wives of the rulers of the Great Empire of the Dawn. It would also make sense for the Dothraki to be their descendants as they are from the same geographic location.
“That would be most fitting,” Magister Illyrio said. Dany saw the smallest hint of a smile playing around his full lips, but her brother did not notice. Nodding, he pushed back a curtain and stared off into the night, and Dany knew he was fighting the Battle of the Trident once again.
The nine-towered manse of Khal Drogo sat beside the waters of the bay, its high brick walls overgrown with pale ivy. It had been given to the khal by the magisters of Pentos, Illyrio told them. The Free Cities were always generous with the horselords. “It is not that we fear these barbarians,” Illyrio would explain with a smile. “The Lord of Light would hold our city walls against a million Dothraki, or so the red priests promise… yet why take chances, when their friendship comes so cheap?”
Their palanquin was stopped at the gate, the curtains pulled roughly back by one of the house guards. He had the copper skin and dark almond eyes of a Dothraki, but his face was hairless and he wore the spiked bronze cap of the Unsullied. He looked them over coldly. Magister Illyrio growled something to him in the rough Dothraki tongue; the guardsman replied in the same voice and waved them through the gates.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
The Lord of Light would hold our city walls against a million Dothraki, or so the red priests promise… yet why take chances, when their friendship comes so cheap?”
Just how much of Pentos worships the Red God? Is the relationship between Pentos and the Dothraki symbolic of the relationship between fire and ice?
Their palanquin was stopped at the gate, the curtains pulled roughly back by one of the house guards. He had the copper skin and dark almond eyes of a Dothraki, but his face was hairless and he wore the spiked bronze cap of the Unsullied. He looked them over coldly.
Dany noticed that her brother’s hand was clenched tightly around the hilt of his borrowed sword. He looked almost as frightened as she felt. “Insolent eunuch,” Viserys muttered as the palanquin lurched up toward the manse.
Magister Illyrio’s words were honey. “Many important men will be at the feast tonight. Such men have enemies. The khal must protect his guests, yourself chief among them, Your Grace. No doubt the Usurper would pay well for your head.”
“Oh, yes,” Viserys said darkly. “He has tried, Illyrio, I promise you that. His hired knives follow us everywhere. I am the last dragon, and he will not sleep easy while I live.”
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
I think that you hit the nail on the head. He's trying to fulfill prophecy. He wants the Stallion that Mounts the World.
It really does seem like this prophecy is everywhere--which is, of course, what messianic prophecies do. And seen through the lens of the society that adopts them
Still, it takes the death of the father. And Drogo interpreted it wrongly. LmL's take on the comet and the moon--in this case, the Red Stallion (hey, sweetsunray!) mets the moon. After she has been wife of son, the ritual with the red stallion breaks everything, aaaaand DRAGONS!!!!
Well, didn't the Darrys (Does the change the y to ie rule still apply for a surname?) have blank spaces on the wall from where they hastily removed Targaryan hangings prior to Robert's impromptu visit?
Ah! Yes, I'd forgotten the Darrys. And their place in the Riverlands makes it seem like they will have some impact--or at least their home will.
Well, that would match with LmL's idea that she transitions from moon maiden to solar king at this point.
Or did she just transition to "dragon?" The Sun and Stars are not burning the whole world. The dragon is. Stars in a daylight sky smile down on Dany later in Game. But the dragon burns all.
I'm thinking she isn't a sun--the Sun and Stars are gone. She's what was in the moon all along--dragons.
It is interesting. We probably should discuss these when we get to those chapters (as it would be more grounded). I am reading GoT now, I'll keep an eye for this.
Amen.
Though I think it might fit with what I just typed above--that when she raises the dragons, she's no longer the moon. The sun has gone out. And, under the light of the comet, she becomes the dragon with three heads.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Finally, SlyWren, someone (Sorry! Bird brain moment!) does have a theory about the Valyrians having something to do with the Queens of the Silver Sea, and those Queens as ancient consorts of the Khals?? Maybe?
Lady Dyanna, SlyWren, The thing that bothers me, is William Darry is a Master of Arms! There is no way that the man who raised Dany and Vyserys can be William Darry, if this boy is quite so useless with a sword. Even baby Stark has started training, and he's what, three? It doesn't make sense.
Well, Viserys might just be useless per se.
But yes, it really would seem that Darry would have taken time to teach Viserys. Rhaegar may have resisted until he read something in his books. But seems like Darry would have insisted.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I'm wondering now about Winterfell's missing Maester, pre-Catelyn?
Just "wondering in general" or is there a path you're on? Not quite following . . .
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Does he use the Dothraki tongue because he needs to do so or to hide what he says?
A bit of both, I'd think. Dany's already pegged him as playing them. This seems like part of the performance.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I'm wondering now about Winterfell's missing Maester, pre-Catelyn?
Just "wondering in general" or is there a path you're on? Not quite following . . .
I'm wondering if he is the man who raised Dany. Catelyn brings her Maester with her (as she states that he birthed all her children, and she delivered Robb at her Dads. So where did the prior Maester go? (Horrible brain fog today, please excuse my inability to grab correct names) He has soft hands, teaches her languages, ...sounds like a Maester to me. My speculation is that Ned sent the Winterfell Maester to Dorne to raise Dany. She's the Bastard of Dragonstone: she has servants in the household, a Maester to teach her; she's being brought up like a noble, but not as a princess.
Somewhere this goes pear-shaped, and "William Darry" ends up somehow with Viserys as well - and them "Darry" is dead. How does that happen? The marriage pact with Viserys and Arianna tells us that the Martells knew where to find Viserys early on after 'they fled Dragonstone', yet they make no mention of Daenerys. Were they unaware of her, and if so, who else knew where to find both children?
I'm wondering if he is the man who raised Dany. Catelyn brings her Maester with her (as she states that he birthed all her children, and she delivered Robb at her Dads. So where did the prior Maester go? (Horrible brain fog today, please excuse my inability to grab correct names) He has soft hands, teaches her languages, ...sounds like a Maester to me. My speculation is that Ned sent the Winterfell Maester to Dorne to raise Dany. She's the Bastard of Dragonstone: she has servants in the household, a Maester to teach her; she's being brought up like a noble, but not as a princess.
Okay--I'm loving this.
Walys Flowers--clearly from the Reach, right? Look at how Lady Barbrey presents him.
"They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.
"ThatwashowitwaswithLordRickardStark. MaesterWalyswashisgreyrat'sname. And isn't it clever how the maesters go by only one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from … butifyouaredoggedenough, youcanstillfindout. Before he forged his chain, Maester Walys had been known as Walys Flowers. Flowers, Hill, Rivers, Snow … we givesuchnamesto baseborn children to mark them for what they are, but they are always quick to shed them. Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother … and an archmaester of the Citadel for a father, itwas rumored. Thegreyratsarenotaschasteastheywouldhaveusbelieve. Oldtownmaestersaretheworstofall. Onceheforgedhis chain, his secretfather and his friends wasted no time dispatching him to Winterfell to fill Lord Rickard's ears with poisoned words as sweet as honey.TheTullymarriagewashisnotion,neverdoubtit,he—"Dance,Princeof Winterfell
[/b]
Okay--I know that Lady Barbrey has serious issues. But given what we've seen of Maesters so far, she really might have a point.
If Maester Walys was a part Hightower, why send him to the North? "We Light the Way." What did they know/want?
And the thing about telling secrets and the ruled becoming the ruler--how much might Ned have told him? Did Walys ask to be sent to the south with Dany? Especially if she is half Dayne. . . .
As you say--soft hands, languages, NOT armaments. And Walys has the addition of being part Hightower.
I think this fits with markg171 's fDany theory, too. Especially the Hightower and potential Dayne factors.
Somewhere this goes pear-shaped, and "William Darry" ends up somehow with Viserys as well - and them "Darry" is dead. How does that happen? The marriage pact with Viserys and Arianna tells us that the Martells knew where to find Viserys early on after 'they fled Dragonstone', yet they make no mention of Daenerys. Were they unaware of her, and if so, who else knew where to find both children?
"Someone tells. Someone always tells."
Yes, someone always tells--and if the Martells found out about Dany--did they poison him?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Thanks, SlyWren. Very interesting that Flowers is from Hightower. If you are Ned, sending an infant abroad becomes much simpler if your "agent" is from a powerful Port family, isn't it? Ned keeps his promise, yet doesn't try too hard to help = 14 years of guilt...maybe?
It really does seem like this prophecy is everywhere--which is, of course, what messianic prophecies do. And seen through the lens of the society that adopts them
Yes it does. Gwindor has a pretty interesting theory over on Westeros, that I hope he will eventually share here, that this might not be the first time that the Dothraki tried to fulfill this prophecy. I think that I wrote a little about it ruptured. This has a ring of truth to me and seems to explain a lot. It makes me wonder about a connection to the PtwP, but just as you mentioned, under the view of a different culture.
Still, it takes the death of the father. And Drogo interpreted it wrongly. LmL's take on the comet and the moon--in this case, the Red Stallion (hey, sweetsunray!) mets the moon. After she has been wife of son, the ritual with the red stallion breaks everything, aaaaand DRAGONS!!!!
Did Drogo interpret it wrongly, or did something intervene to change the prophecy? Namely the actions of Dany herself. If Dany hadn't rescued MMD, would events have unfolded as they did? I would argue that the path was changed much earlier than the sacrifice of the red stallion. Dany changed it with her choice to save the Lhazereen women.
As to your second part, have you seen my latest post in voice's Changing Woman thread? An argument can be made that Dany herself is the moon that cracks open when she enters the pyre of her Sun and Stars. Drogo (the Sun) cracks his whips and the Dragons burst forth from the Moon (Dany.)
Ah! Yes, I'd forgotten the Darrys. And their place in the Riverlands makes it seem like they will have some impact--or at least their home will.
Plus we have Willum Darry involved in our story, and Jonathor Darry in Aerys's Kingsguard. Not to mention, a while lot of speculation that Jonathor Darry is the Silent Brother in charge of the Quiet Isle (can't recall his title for the life of me right now) and other speculation that the High Sparrow is a Darry. I believe that Wraith is working on either one or both of these theories currently.
Or did she just transition to "dragon?" The Sun and Stars are not burning the whole world. The dragon is. Stars in a daylight sky smile down on Dany later in Game. But the dragon burns all.
I'm thinking she isn't a sun--the Sun and Stars are gone. She's what was in the moon all along--dragons.
that she was the moon that cracked to birth dragons and her Sun and Stars are gone, but I'm not sure about the rest. I'll have to put some thought into it. LmL had some pretty good rationale for her transitioning into a solar king.
She's only posting a little on Westeros at the moment so may not be coming back.
But she talks about Fisher Kings and Queens. And perhaps might also include the above.
Actually, Evolett discusses this on her blog. I mentioned it a little bit up thread when we were discussing Dany getting prepared to meet Drogo. If I remember correctly, ladybarbrey mentioned the Fisher Queens more in relation to Bran and him possibly being healed and healing the land, but I could have missed something.
But yes, it really would seem that Darry would have taken time to teach Viserys. Rhaegar may have resisted until he read something in his books. But seems like Darry would have insisted.
Well, I think Viserys IS useless, per se. But that still doesn't excuse him from not knowing one end of the sword from another if he was raised in the House of the Sealord of Braavos by the Red Keep's former Master at Arms. Seems like he should have at least picked up SOMETHING along the way.
Seven towers in the Eyrie. . . . I'm assuming someone somewhere has tried to count up all the number clusters. . . But I struggle to find it. . .
I've seen one of the RLJ posters discuss it, but I can't remember who. Think it might have been the same guy that came up with the corn code theory. It seems like there should be some meaning there, but I haven't figured it out either. Oh joy, something else to put on the list.
This passage makes me think Illyrio is more pragmatist than faithful.
But the relationship with the Dothraki and the plan to wed Dany--is Illyrio also interested in the same prophecy Drogo is?
Could very well be. But the thing that made me ask that was the amount of times the Dothraki seem to parallel the Others. For example, the fight at Dany's wedding is a close parallel to the fight between See Waymar and the ww.
Dany noticed that her brother’s hand was clenched tightly around the hilt of his borrowed sword. He looked almost as frightened as she felt. “Insolent eunuch,” Viserys muttered as the palanquin lurched up toward the manse.
Well, I guess I was wrong. Viserys does understand enough not to grab the pointy end. Not much else though, it appears. He knows he still can't protect himself, even with a sword on his belt.
Magister Illyrio’s words were honey. “Many important men will be at the feast tonight. Such men have enemies. The khal must protect his guests, yourself chief among them, Your Grace. No doubt the Usurper would pay well for your head.”
And there goes Illyrio playing into Viserys's insecurities and delusions again.
“Oh, yes,” Viserys said darkly. “He has tried, Illyrio, I promise you that. His hired knives follow us everywhere. I am the last dragon, and he will not sleep easy while I live.”
Just the thing to give Viserys the opportunity to puff up his chest again and seem important.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?