This not related in anyway to what we've been discussing but I also read the Bran chapter in dance when they arrive at the cave and I never noticed before but Coldhands actually says that the cave has "a back door" which is apparently 3 leagues north of the cave down a sinkhole. That's right folks, it is "the door that shall be held".
voice, I think you might be right (to a point) about miasma but I think it may have been enhanced or "worked" (in a magical sense) and I don't think it's the only time it's happened.
“The conquerors did not believe either, Hugor Hill,” said Ysilla. “The men of Volantis and Valyria hung Garin in a golden cage and made mock as he called upon his Mother to destroy them. But in the night the waters rose and drowned them, and from that day to this they have not rested. They are down there still beneath the water, they who were once the lords of fire. Their cold breath rises from the murk to make these fogs, and their flesh has turned as stony as their hearts.”
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So beset by foes wielding fire, in desperation an individual calls upon their gods to intercede and curse those that torment them. We could be talking about CotF & FM here could we not ? The above quote of course details the legend of how the stonemen came to be and it is known that greyscale prospers in damp, wet conditions. Are we looking at a water form of the miasma ? Keep in mind, ice is just water after all.
Oh yes. If you scroll through the Weirwood Ghost thread, you'll find more than a few points along the lines of the First Men polluting the sacred groves not only with fire and sword, but with blood sacrifice.
I know I am probably way late to the party on this but Shrouded Lord and Night's King origin stories are eerily similar. Are there anymore out there that I don't know about ?
Shrouded Lord plays a prominent role in the Weirwood Ghost thread as well (my convo with evolett in that thread). The Sorrows: where stone men walk a bridge (weir) of broken dream.
Other, similar stories can be found in abundance. Stannis. The Last Hero. Waymar Royce. The Mad King (cast down by his brother, cousin's rebellion, and slain by his own sworn sword). Khal Drogo (enchanted by a beautiful moon-colored woman, gives her his seed and his soul).
The only thing that Voice has wrong, in my humble opinion is what exactly the miasma is. I think that the miasma is the change to the environment itself. The impact on the people is only a secondary result to this change.
That's actually what I am proposing the Miasma is. LOL
I am not proposing that the First Men are the miasma (they are the antigen), nor even that the Others are the miasma (they are the antibody). I am instead proposing that the First Men created a miasma (ecological change) in Westeros when they cut and burned weirwoods (releasing a carbon footprint that happened to be sentient).
This act, I believe, provided the impetus of an equal an opposite (auto-immune) reaction by the continent itself (a living Planet...the trees are its heart). This response was equal and opposite and perfectly adapted to a very specific antigen. It cuts and burns with cold and ice, rather than fire and fire-forged steel. And, it rides legged-mounts.
The release of antibodies is not the miasma itself. I see the miasma itself as the vapours released by the burning of weirwoods. What happens when you burn a heart? The same thing as happens when you burn a heart tree. You create a Heart of Winter.
I view the miasma as a space in which those vapours might coalesce and liquify, and eventually become solid. Hence the sentient beings with bodies made of frozen water, CO2, and other things trees understand...
And I think Bran glimpsed that process when he was in his spirit flight (coma dream).
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Yes. And voice, like the homes of the devotees in Song for Lya. Hives for the hive-minded. The Children's caverns under the weirwoods, the barrows of the barrow kings, the Starry septs. It's the dome of the sky and the womb of the earth at the same time. As SlyWren would likely say, a liminal space.
Off topic a little, but I love when theories seem to loop back and interweave : with ideas posited elsewhere. #nerdherdlove
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
I am not proposing that the First Men are the miasma (they are the antigen), nor even that the Others are the miasma (they are the antibody). I am instead proposing that the First Men created a miasma (ecological change) in Westeros when they cut and burned weirwoods (releasing a carbon footprint that happened to be sentient)
If you keep explaining this to me, in time I might actually get it. LOL. I'm trying to pinpoint where it is exactly that I differ from your opinion, because I think I 98% agree with you. It's basically just the ww. I agree with what you say about the cold and the miasma,etc. I think the wights are part of the impact of that miasma. But I'm just not as positive as you are that the ww are a natural response as opposed to a purposely worked one. And it might just be that they are both.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
If you keep explaining this to me, in time I might actually get it. LOL. I'm trying to pinpoint where it is exactly that I differ from your opinion, because I think I 98% agree with you.
LOL it's okay. I love all the angles. Often people bring up great supporting arguments when they think they disagree with you.
It's basically just the ww. I agree with what you say about the cold and the miasma,etc. I think the wights are part of the impact of that miasma. But I'm just not as positive as you are that the ww are a natural response as opposed to a purposely worked one. And it might just be that they are both.
First of all, LOVE that you didn't capitalize "ww".
Wights are indeed a part of the impact. Per my OP, they are the very interface of the antigen+antibody. To be really cynical... wights are what a "fixed" human looks like. Mindless. Unable to wield fire. Rather than chop down trees, they abandon axes.
I'm not calling ww's a "natural response." They are entirely magical. But, I do think GRRM has strengthened his "magic" with a sober dose of real-world physics (particularly Newtonian mechanics and thermodynamics), mythology (Classical Greek Miasma), medicine (catharsis/katharmos & Asclepius' snake-sword), and disease pathology (real life's historical "John Snow," the end of Medieval Miasma, and birth of Epidemiology).
So, while nature was the incubator, it wasn't the force. I see the force as being applied by First Men. And I see Westeros (as both a natural and magical place with both natural and magical energy) as exhibitin an equal and opposite force upon the First Men in the form of the Others that came in the Long Night (and have now returned). All of this I see as being made plausible via the physics, mythology, history, and medicine laid out in the OP.
This is the short version of the theory, so I may not have explained the hypothesis as well as I might have liked. I use the long version to put the wife to sleep. LOL
Giving this thread a bump because it just came to my attention that TWOIAF actually has a picture of Dawn in it
So that's what Dawn's supposed to look like. I'm pointing this out, not just because the find of a seemingly approved picture is fairly exciting and I don't know if you're aware of this picture or not already, but also because of how wide Dawn is. Take a look at the SOTM's hand gripping Dawn and imagine how that would correspond to the largest portion of Dawn's width. Looks about the same right? Now why is that familiar?
There were questions asked and answers given there in the chill of morning, but afterward Bran could not recall much of what had been said. Finally his lord father gave a command, and two of his guardsmen dragged the ragged man to the ironwood stump in the center of the square. They forced his head down onto the hard black wood. Lord Eddard Stark dismounted and his ward Theon Greyjoy brought forth the sword. "Ice," that sword was called. It was as wide across as a man's hand, and taller even than Robb. The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
It's as wide as his hand, just like Ice is.
It's also a very big sword, and Daynes happen to be stony Dornish who are notably tall, thus making it that that Sword of the Morning in that picture is also tall. We can also determine that he'd be big even without simply guessing his height off that on the simple basis of looking at the fact that he's grey bearded (aka old), yet still wearing full armour, carrying a greatsword, a longsword, and a dagger that's only a few inches short of being a short sword, as well as multiple layers of heraldry and a cloak. Basically, that man is decked the fuck out. An old man like him wouldn't be capable of carrying so much, let alone actually fighting effectively, unless he wasn't strong (one of the characteristics Jaime also said Arthur was). Thus, that Sword of the Morning is indeed a big guy. And he's bigger than Dawn, but I bet you Dawn would happen to be bigger than Robb too. And we know Ice was only 6 feet long, so if that SOTM is over 6 feet tall then the blade's the same length as Ice.
Also, while we're getting into the more speculatory areas here, but that sword also only has one fuller. When Jon receives Longclaw he distinguishes Longclaw from the other swords he's wielded, which includes Ice that's brought up in the same paragraph, partially on the basis as having three fullers.
The pommel was a hunk of pale stone weighted with lead to balance the long blade. It had been carved into the likeness of a snarling wolf's head, with chips of garnet set into the eyes. The grip was virgin leather, soft and black, as yet unstained by sweat or blood. The blade itself was a good half foot longer than those Jon was used to, tapered to thrust as well as slash, with three fullers deeply incised in the metal. Where Ice was a true two-handed greatsword, this was a hand-and-a-halfer, sometimes named a "bastard sword." Yet the wolf sword actually seemed lighter than the blades he had wielded before. When Jon turned it sideways, he could see the ripples in the dark steel where the metal had been folded back on itself again and again. "This is Valyrian steel, my lord," he said wonderingly. His father had let him handle Ice often enough; he knew the look, the feel.
The amount of fullers on Ice is never mentioned, nor is the amount of fullers on Ilyn's greatsword that's a replica of Ice ever mentioned, despite us getting multiple descriptions of Ice, blood running down the blade (part of the point of a fuller), Ned and Ilyn cleaning their blades, etc. Basically, if Ice had more than a single fuller, you'd think somebody would've mentioned it by now. In which case, Ice has the same single fuller that Dawn has.
Basically, that picture in TWOIAF that passed GRRM's inspection happens to be as wide as a man's hand and likely 6 feet tall, both the description's of Ice, and has only single fuller and Ice has never been said to have more than that either. And we know that Ice was specifically forged based off the original Ice's legend.
Seems to me that these swords are exactly the same.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Mayhaps you were already a member. I seem to have the impression you once had some reservations about this idea, but I may be thinking of a duel with good ole Black Crow. And the more I think about it, that Joseph Conrad aficionado seems likely. LOL
As my shameless links of self-promotion suggest, I have a shit-ton of pet theories. But there are few that I am more confident in than this one.
Contrary to some of my debates in this thread might suggest, I am quite fond of the descriptions of Dawn in the world book. You are indeed seeing what I am seeing my friend.
So you have seen the secular comparisons. What has been seen cannot be unseen...
The only ingredients you are missing, now, before becoming a true star-eyed shadow-knight made of ice and riding upon the winds of winter with a blade alive with light, are the magical comparisons:
A Game of Thrones - Eddard X
In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist. [...] Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. "And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. "No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
Conclusion?
Ned, via recurring fever dream, repeatedly glimpses the future consequence of his past action: The blue eyes of death shall blow, and return, when the sky is streaked with the bloody Red Comet.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Mayhaps you were already a member. I seem to have the impression you once had some reservations about this idea, but I may be thinking of a duel with good ole Black Crow. And the more I think about it, that Joseph Conrad aficionado seems likely. LOL
Well I've always been of the opinion that Dawn is probably an Others sword and not a meteorite sword. The descriptions are exactly the same, alive with light, incredibly sharp and hard, pale, and even their wielders are incredible swordsmen. All you need to do is believe it's possible that an Other made a greatsword instead of a longsword once, and that someone took it. Both possible. Greatswords are standard weapons and they did lose the war.
I've also thought it's possible Ice was similarly an Others sword likewise. You got a sword literally called ice from then? Why not it being a literal ice sword? Taking a fallen foe's weapon is simply common practice.
As to Ice = Dawn, really the only similarity I ever saw was that both were greatswords. That's about it until I saw that picture and realized they're the same sword and that the current Ice is just a replica of Dawn if that picture is at all accurate. Heck, even Ilyn Payne's replica of Ice is described as being silvery-bright, shinier than normal. It's not pale or alive with light, but it's bringing you to that and a clear parallel. And his sword is a recreation of Ice. Ice is a recreation of another sword, but dark due to the nature of Valyrian steel. Therefore it's not at all out of the question that the original Ice was bright. Which leaves you with Dawn.
I still don't buy any of your theories about Ned beating Arthur caused the return of the Others though lol.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Basic premise that I think you'd enjoy: Dawn is white because it was used to kill the Night's Queen and it absorbed her and her paleness, same way that Ice became red after Ned was killed.
Also speculates that Swords of the Morning are chosen based on their ability to withstand the blade as the blade holds the Night's Queen's spirit inside and is a sentient sword.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Basic premise that I think you'd enjoy: Dawn is white because it was used to kill the Night's Queen and it absorbed her paleness, same way that Ice became red after Ned was killed.
Given the similarities between Dawn and the blades of Others, I don't see why this would be necessary for the color. Dawn is not steel. It is milk glass, and alive with light.
While it is not named as a shard of crystal that seems to vanish while seen edge-on, it's pretty damn close.
Then there's the size of the thing, and the fact that "no human metals" were said to have used in the forging of each.
Also speculates that Swords of the Morning are chosen based on their ability to withstand the blade as the blade holds the Night's Queen's spirit inside and is a sentient sword.
Given the similarities between Dawn and the blades of Others, I don't see why this would be necessary for the color. Dawn is not steel. It is milk glass
Well that's what the explanation is for: we haven't seen an Others sword be described as milkglass. Similar, but Dawn has a definite whiteness to it while the other blades don't. The Night's Queen was said to be extremely pale and this author is simply positing that Dawn perhaps changed colour when it Nissa Nissa'd her.
Otherwise you do eventually IMO need to account for why Dawn is white and Others swords aren't.
While it is not named as a shard of crystal that seems to vanish while seen edge-on, it's pretty damn close.
Then there's the size of the thing
I would argue that the size of Dawn is precisely why it isn't as thin as the longswords we've seen the Others. A greatsword is by definition bigger than a longsword.
It's funny, but a lot of people in the thread are ripping the idea that Dawn or Valyrian steel swords are possibly sentient. This is despite the fact that we're given passages like these
"The sword is quick," Tarly snapped. "That is the nature of Valyrian steel. Stronger than most men? Aye. She's a freak of nature, far be it from me to deny it."
And then Qhorin's sword was coming at him and somehow Longclaw leapt upward to block
We're literally told by a man who's wielded VS for decades that his sword is quick by nature, and Jon somehow is quicker and able to deflect blows without consciously doing it. The surface explanation is simply that lighter sword = quicker user, but what would be so hard to understand that it's just the sword actually moving itself too?
Anyways, but I agree that the idea that Dawn holds the Night Queen's spirit is a pretty cool idea. We know that the Sword of the Morning need not be the best swordsman in the realm as we're told that Daemon Blackfyre was better than Ulryck Dayne and that Darkstar, supposedly one of the finest swordsmen in Dorne isn't wielding it. And otherwise we're simply told that they need to be a worthy knight. What is a worthy knight other than someone who would uphold certain "good" ideals, and why is that so important to being able to wield Dawn unless it's because Dawn goes against those ideals?
Plus given that IIRC you believe that the Night's King stirred because Dawn was defeated, I can see even more so why you like the idea that the Night's Queen's sole is trapped in Dawn. If Dawn just lost it's protector then now's the chance for the Night King to strike to get back his wife. And given that there is no SOTM for whatever reason these past 17 years, it's possibly because there's nobody strong enough to hold back the Night's Queen's influence
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Given the similarities between Dawn and the blades of Others, I don't see why this would be necessary for the color. Dawn is not steel. It is milk glass
Well that's what the explanation is for: we haven't seen an Others sword be described as milkglass. Similar, but Dawn has a definite whiteness to it while the other blades don't. The Night's Queen was said to be extremely pale and this author is simply positing that Dawn perhaps changed colour when it Nissa Nissa'd her.
Otherwise you do eventually IMO need to account for why Dawn is white and Others swords aren't.
While it is not named as a shard of crystal that seems to vanish while seen edge-on, it's pretty damn close.
Then there's the size of the thing
I would argue that the size of Dawn is precisely why it isn't as thin as the longswords we've seen the Others. A greatsword is by definition bigger than a longsword.
It's funny, but a lot of people in the thread are ripping the idea that Dawn or Valyrian steel swords are possibly sentient. This is despite the fact that we're given passages like these
"The sword is quick," Tarly snapped. "That is the nature of Valyrian steel. Stronger than most men? Aye. She's a freak of nature, far be it from me to deny it."
And then Qhorin's sword was coming at him and somehow Longclaw leapt upward to block
We're literally told by a man who's wielded VS for decades that his sword is quick by nature, and Jon somehow is quicker and able to deflect blows without consciously doing it. The surface explanation is simply that lighter sword = quicker user, but what would be so hard to understand that it's just the sword actually moving itself too?
Anyways, but I agree that the idea that Dawn holds the Night Queen's spirit is a pretty cool idea. We know that the Sword of the Morning need not be the best swordsman in the realm as we're told that Daemon Blackfyre was better than Ulryck Dayne and that Darkstar, supposedly one of the finest swordsmen in Dorne isn't wielding it. And otherwise we're simply told that they need to be a worthy knight. What is a worthy knight other than someone who would uphold certain "good" ideals, and why is that so important to being able to wield Dawn unless it's because Dawn goes against those ideals?
Plus given that IIRC you believe that the Night's King stirred because Dawn was defeated, I can see even more so why you like the idea that the Night's Queen's sole is trapped in Dawn. If Dawn just lost it's protector then now's the chance for the Night King to strike to get back his wife. And given that there is no SOTM for whatever reason these past 17 years, it's possibly because there's nobody strong enough to hold back the Night's Queen's influence
I'm digging this! One sword to rule them all! There's also the way Ice seemed to fight assimilation with the red colors when it was reforged. It was rejecting it bc it wasn't blood, it didn't have a soul.
It also makes me think of how Bump "went into the trees" and how the smith's of Qohor supposedly used children sacrifices to reforge VS.
The blade was Valyrian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke. Nothing held an edge like Valyrian steel.
as the blade holds the Night's Queen's spirit inside and is a sentient sword.
interesting concept: sentient swords. Let me take this a step further:
the Night's Queen is pale, Dawn is pale, there is a definite resemblance. The Night's King gave his soul when he took possession of the alien sword. The Night's Queen is the milkglass sword Ice.
The LH had an alien sword, called Ice, who could defeat the alien Others. BtB killed him to take the sword from him, then turned into the NK under the power of the sentient sword. After his brother from WF took him - the NK - down, this brother returned the alien sword, now called Dawn, to the family of his owners. Was the sword always alive with light? or is is only when wielded by a SotM?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Damn, on the subject of the Dawn Sword and the Red Sword... Something tells me that the blood streaked sky of Ned's green dream is both the great red comet and analagous to a great dragon breathing flame; in other words a flaming sword. Likewise, the dawn sword made from the heart of a fallen star may also be dragonbone; an albino dragon perhaps - one with a blue eye.
As for riding a dragon otherwise known as skinchanging; I think we've already seen that in Dany's 'wake the dragon' dreams. A dragon god called R'hllor (R'haegar, R'haella, R'haenys etc.) Dany tranforms into a dragon and flies. So yes I think its possible for dragon gods to be second lifers.