The Night's Queens, Brides of Fire, and Undead Kings

(but be ye warned, I see NK in almost everthing... LOL)

So, if you were doing the books' maps, the edges would be "here be Night's Kings?"

NK was likely dark - dressed in NW blacks - and a man, when he fell "by light of day." Then upon rising with the darkness, he was probably white with starry eyes. Conjecture, that, but not without precedent (Symeon Star Eyes, Waymar, Othor, Jafer, Small Paul, Thistle).

And, as I said above, what the precedent keeps getting mentioned. And associated with the Dragonknight--which is interesting.

The 'happening' itself seems rather liminal, no? One sword shattered in the cold long night. Another rose at dawn. Northron Ambitions made of Ice. Southron Ambitions made of Fire.

Dawn rose is a common motif in the series, and we see a winter rose growing from a chink in a Wall that looks like a large twin for the greatsword Dawn - alive with light.

YUP! And Martin's SSM chooses the language "the next Sword of the Morning rises." Rising seems innately tied to the sword and its bearer.

That would make a lot of sense. We find Catelyn Stoneheart ready to purge her own sworn sword from the Riverlands. If Mel were a younger, more beautiful fire-bride, it makes sense that she is no longer bound by her previous (human) morality. Dany exhibits much of the same.

Or even that the morality gets simplified. Beric's sticking with the basic plan. Cat's plan is extremely simple--kill those she thinks betrayed her. No nuance. Dany's is getting simpler, too, despite all the politics. The Stallion mounts the world. He doesn't engage it in diplomatic relations.

Reminds me of the Yeats line: "What could have made her peaceful with a mind that nobleness made simple as a fire?" Simple as in not nuanced. Not "simplistic."

True

but was his actual blood flammable? Or was it the act itself that brought light and heat? I'd like to think it was the latter, and that Beric was the true AAR, and that his arc is over so that the true Hero of the Morning can emerge.

Well, Arthur does get Jaime's blood on Dawn. References Jaime's bloody knees. And says, "blood is the seal of our devotion." Am wondering if the burning sword with blood is a mongrelization of the same basic idea.

Mar 5, 2016 23:41:03 GMT Lady Dyanna said:

Alert: Lyanna is currently the latest incarnation of the Nights Queen/Corpse Bride. The sweet smelling blue rose growing from a chink in the wall actually represents Lyanna herself.

LmL and I have talked about Sansa as Nights Queen echo. and WeaselPie's argued about Lyanna as Other.

This might be a closer middle ground--Lyanna as tied to blue-eyed death that rose via new life? Or are you agreeing with voice that Lyanna's in the Winterfell crypts in a weirwood chair?

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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The Night's Queens, Brides of Fire, and Undead Kings Mar 7, 2016 22:52:54 GMT

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Post by voice on Mar 7, 2016 22:52:54 GMT

Just for the record, I think Mel will be involved

I think you missed it, but we had a bit of a breakthrough about Mel.

shizett and SlyWren were talking about her as an inverse of Catelyn, and I suggested the possibility that Catelyn herself gives us a glimpse of Mel's origin story. It makes a lot of sense.

So rather than repeatedly duel and gain new scars, or lie in a river dead for three days, I'm thinking Mel was resurrected while still beautiful, and has maintained that beauty by not placing herself in danger of direct harm.

Remember we learned from Beric that the resurrected begin to lose themselves, and he had been resurrected a great many times. Though Catelyn is clearly diminished, she was resurrected only once, and still speaks a lot like Catelyn Tully-Stark ("Words are wind," she remembers Brienne and her oath, etc). So we're thinking Mel is actually just a younger, more beautiful bride of fire.

It would explain why

Mel can remember the sale of Melony at Lot Seven, albeit foggily
she has "fire inside of her" (complete with smoking black blood and tears of fire)
she can see more in the flames than others
she is driven by a single goal (one hunts Freys, one hunts the Great Other)

An interesting implication of this is that Catelyn might also be able to conceive shadowbabies. Actually, I'd assume that is the only type of child she could possibly conceive.

but I also think Bran might be as well. I suspect a greenseer can raise someone from the dead themselves, and they might not need ice or fire as a medium to do so. My best guess is that Mel's part will be burning the merged Jon-Ghost spirit out of the wolf. As for reanimating the corpse, that could be ice (whatever raises the wights, whether it be the Others or the North itself) or Mel's fire, or Bran's greenseer powers.

Yup, that's what wolfmaid7 thinks too, which likely means you're wrong. (Kidding wolfmaid7! LOL)

I would only point out that greenseeing seems to imply by its very name that it sees-through-life. We have no examples of skinchangers, wargs, greendreamers, or greenseers seeing through the eyes of the dead, or inhabiting the dead.

What we do have are artifacts of their consciousness that cling to the living (Orell within his eagle, V6 within one eye, the Singer in Bran's raven). None can inhabit the dead. Life itself, and consciousness, is the very medium of the bond.

I'm not sure if Jon will have blue or red star eyes. Part of me thinks red, like ghosts's eyes and like a fire-undead or fire-transformed (Mel, Stoneheart, Beric).

Yup, no telling there. But I'm not sure about Beric and Stoneheart's eyes being red. Beric had a red pit where his eye was missing, and Lady Stoneheart's eyes are red pits too, but I always thought that was because she was bloody, and Brienne only sees them in firelight.

Symbolically, I agree. I'm just not quite sure about Beric and Stoneheart having literal red eyes like Mel. I'm definitely open to the possibility though, and it would be one more point in favor of the above theory that Mel herself is actually undead/soulless, and animated by fire.

But then we have all the blue eyed king with a red sword and no shadow stuff, and not just for Stannis.

I don't see why Stannis alone can't adequately account for that vision. He was at the prow of a ship, you recall, and I don't think Jon will be sailing anytime soon.

AA reborn might need to combine ice and fire, and blue star eyes with a red sword might qualify.

You do realize how House Dayne this all sounds right? Red+Blue=Purple, Starfall=Ice+Fire, and they wield a sword named after sunrise - bringer of light and heat.

BTW if Jon is raised by ice magic, then takes back over his body somehow, I think he would have black eyes like Coldhands.

Seems unlikely. Blue starry eyes are the most obvious and telling side effect of ice magic.

Remember Symeon and the 13th LC's queen.

I suppose I am hoping for red eyed Jon, like his wolf or a weirwood. I don't think Coldhands could hold a sword of red fire, could he? He seems to avoid fire.

Yup. I think we're all rooting for Jon to stick with Ghost/Old Powers modes of resurrection.

Reforged in red and white, blood and bone. I also wouldn't mind for his mother to lend a hand. She's been calling him from the roots of Winterfell's heart tree, I'm thinking. It's my contention that is where the crypts lead.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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The Night's Queens, Brides of Fire, and Undead Kings Mar 7, 2016 23:12:15 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by voice on Mar 7, 2016 23:12:15 GMT

So, if you were doing the books' maps, the edges would be "here be Night's Kings?"

Even worse, I'd write it singular:

"Here be Night's King"
LOL

And, as I said above, what the precedent keeps getting mentioned. And associated with the Dragonknight--which is interesting.

It is. Mayhaps he was an Ice-Dragonknight.

YUP! And Martin's SSM chooses the language "the next Sword of the Morning rises." Rising seems innately tied to the sword and its bearer.

Rises is key. Sun-rise = Son-rise when we're talking about the Sword of the Morning.

I pointed out somewhere, perhaps my Dawn=Ice thread at the W, that rose can also be seen as the past tense form of rise. One is a noun, one is a verb.

If we add to this the fact that "blue roses" represent lies, not only in other literature, but in other literature by GRRM (Bitterblooms, among others), then it becomes quite clear that the Blue Rose represents a lie. Lyanna's lie = Ned's promise. And, as I've pointed out in both places, her lie grew into a chink in white armor. Arthur's armor.

It now fills the air with sweetness, and Lyanna told us that love is sweet.

So while he may have been born of a lie, Jon is still her 'love' filling the air.

Or even that the morality gets simplified. Beric's sticking with the basic plan. Cat's plan is extremely simple--kill those she thinks betrayed her. No nuance. Dany's is getting simpler, too, despite all the politics. The Stallion mounts the world. He doesn't engage it in diplomatic relations.

Reminds me of the Yeats line: "What could have made her peaceful with a mind that nobleness made simple as a fire?" Simple as in not nuanced. Not "simplistic."

Makes sense.

Well, Arthur does get Jaime's blood on Dawn. References Jaime's bloody knees. And says, "blood is the seal of our devotion." Am wondering if the burning sword with blood is a mongrelization of the same basic idea.

All true.

I'd only add that Jon is now the most devoted man of all, in terms of blood-seal. The "alive with light" blue-white ice crystal sword that guards the realms of men is now drinking his blood.

lucifermeanslightbringer.wordpress.com

Or are you agreeing with voice that Lyanna's in the Winterfell crypts in a weirwood chair?

Either her body or her heart/mind/consciousness must be tapped into those roots. Ghost is the proof, imo.

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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The Night's Queens, Brides of Fire, and Undead Kings Mar 9, 2016 20:41:19 GMT SlyWren likes this

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Post by LmL on Mar 9, 2016 20:41:19 GMT

So as far as the idea of Ghost being sacrificed to resurrect Jon, consider. Yes, the dream says man - wolf - man again. But from the Varamyr prologue we know that when a skinchanger goes to a second life in his animal, he begins to merge. So, if Jon is dead for any prolonged period, he WILL start to merge with Ghost. If we wait too long, the only thing left will be the animal spirit with a tiny shadow of a person, as we see with the ravens or Orell's eagle. What seems the most likely to me is that Jon will be kept in the ice cells for a time, as many have predicted. That means when Jon comes back, he should be part wolf. I am guessing martin will choose a sweet spot where we will get mostly Jon with a strong helping of Ghost, so that people don't feel too bad about the wolf body dying.

As to that, I think we saw a foreshadowing of how to force a spirit out of an animal - by fire, as Mel does to Varamyr. When Jon tries to skinchange Ghost after Ghost takes the arrow wound at Queenscrown, he is unable to and recoils as if touching a hot iron. And only death can pay for life, blah blah. Also, Mithras slays the white bull which is a part of himself when he is reborn, and Jon is Mithras. So yeah... I see Jon and Ghopst merging and then being burnt out of the wolf body and into Jon's resurrected body.

Jon will then be a king with no shadow, and if has has blue eyes and a red sword, he would for the archetype.

Jon Con is another, the red griffin reborn with blue eyes of ice who wears wolf pelts but rides the blackfyre dragon (fAegon).

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The Night's Queens, Brides of Fire, and Undead Kings Mar 14, 2016 4:24:50 GMT

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Post by SlyWren on Mar 14, 2016 4:24:50 GMT

Even worse, I'd write it singular:

"Here be Night's King"
LOL

HA! Still, I know you hold this theory near and dear, but I've been thinking that "Night's King" (Stark) and "Day's King" (Dayne) are offices. Like the Sword of the Morning. Like the Lord Commander SHOULD be a "good" Night's King. But the one with the stricken name fell--so they changed the title.

Maybe.

It is. Mayhaps he was an Ice-Dragonknight.

Or just like Stannis.

Rises is key. Sun-rise = Son-rise when we're talking about the Sword of the Morning.

I pointed out somewhere, perhaps my Dawn=Ice thread at the W, that rose can also be seen as the past tense form of rise. One is a noun, one is a verb.

If we add to this the fact that "blue roses" represent lies, not only in other literature, but in other literature by GRRM (Bitterblooms, among others), then it becomes quite clear that the Blue Rose represents a lie. Lyanna's lie = Ned's promise. And, as I've pointed out in both places, her lie grew into a chink in white armor. Arthur's armor.

It now fills the air with sweetness, and Lyanna told us that love is sweet.

So while he may have been born of a lie, Jon is still her 'love' filling the air.

Very good! Plus, life rising out of death. Like the direwolves. Roses don't grow in ice--I think. I'll admit I've never tried. But given how mine don't grow in winter, I'm feeling pretty confident with they assessment.

So--the sweetness of new life and hope. Even out of deceit and lies and "blue as the eyes of death."

All true.

I'd only add that Jon is now the most devoted man of all, in terms of blood-seal. The "alive with light" blue-white ice crystal sword that guards the realms of men is now drinking his blood.

Yes--he has sealed his conviction on what the Watch should be with his blood.

So, now will his rise with roses?

Either her body or her heart/mind/consciousness must be tapped into those roots. Ghost is the proof, imo.

I can go with consciousness. Actually Lyanna in weir chair--seems like Ned would be less skeptical of the direwolves if this were the case.

Mar 9, 2016 20:41:19 GMT LmL said:

So as far as the idea of Ghost being sacrificed to resurrect Jon, consider. Yes, the dream says man - wolf - man again. But from the Varamyr prologue we know that when a skinchanger goes to a second life in his animal, he begins to merge. So, if Jon is dead for any prolonged period, he WILL start to merge with Ghost. If we wait too long, the only thing left will be the animal spirit with a tiny shadow of a person, as we see with the ravens or Orell's eagle. What seems the most likely to me is that Jon will be kept in the ice cells for a time, as many have predicted. That means when Jon comes back, he should be part wolf. I am guessing martin will choose a sweet spot where we will get mostly Jon with a strong helping of Ghost, so that people don't feel too bad about the wolf body dying.

Very likely. And we've arguably seen Jon merging with Ghost long before this--his flashes of anger staring in Game. They could just be temper. But they are so sudden, they might very well be the wolf

coming out of Jon. "You are your wolf and your wolf is you."

Mar 9, 2016 20:41:19 GMT LmL said:

As to that, I think we saw a foreshadowing of how to force a spirit out of an animal - by fire, as Mel does to Varamyr. When Jon tries to skinchange Ghost after Ghost takes the arrow wound at Queenscrown, he is unable to and recoils as if touching a hot iron. And only death can pay for life, blah blah. Also, Mithras slays the white bull which is a part of himself when he is reborn, and Jon is Mithras. So yeah... I see Jon and Ghopst merging and then being burnt out of the wolf body and into Jon's resurrected body.

Hmmm. . . .might also be tied to the burning of Drogo's red stallion. The animal that is "his." Though in Jon's case, Ghost is MUCH more connected.

Still, I think there's still a good chance the sacrifice will be a human life force--Shireen. The power to move the spirit from one place to another. Vs. killing one host.

Mar 9, 2016 20:41:19 GMT LmL said:

Jon will then be a king with no shadow, and if has has blue eyes and a red sword, he would for the archetype.

Jon Con is another, the red griffin reborn with blue eyes of ice who wears wolf pelts but rides the blackfyre dragon (fAegon).

YUP!!! One way or another, this archetype keeps coming up.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

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The Night's Queens, Brides of Fire, and Undead Kings Mar 14, 2016 5:23:30 GMT SlyWren, whitewolfstark, and 1 more like this

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Post by voice on Mar 14, 2016 5:23:30 GMT

HA! Still, I know you hold this theory near and dear, but I've been thinking that "Night's King" (Stark) and "Day's King" (Dayne) are offices. Like the Sword of the Morning. Like the Lord Commander SHOULD be a "good" Night's King. But the one with the stricken name fell--so they changed the title.

Maybe.

So near and dear that I cancelled HBO after the Oathkeeper episode. I felt they spoiled what was hinted at for so many years in the books. It still pisses me off to think about it. Really stupid writing imo. How on earth did that baby live while being cradled by a white walker through the LoAW?!?!? C'mon now.

I have yet to resume my subscription, but I'll be loyal to the new rewatch schedule whitewolfstark has planned.

But yes, it could well be a title of office. Tis a possibility I've argued many a time with wolfmaid7 over the years. But, we have no canonical reason to make that assumption. Unlike other kings, Night's King became Night's King during the Long Night, and gave his soul and seed to a woman that looked much like an Other. Also, kings serve for life, and the Night's King was never killed.

In order for another man to survive in the cold darkness north and north and north, and beyond that curtain of light at the end of the world, he'd need to be made of Ice. : :cool

::

Or just like Stannis.

Mayhaps. Stannis isn't making women swoon they way Prince Aemon did (Naerys), or does (Sansa).

Very good! Plus, life rising out of death. Like the direwolves. Roses don't grow in ice--I think. I'll admit I've never tried. But given how mine don't grow in winter, I'm feeling pretty confident with they assessment.

:

::

Yes, I haven't tried either, but I'm pretty confident with your assessment as well.

But yes, to the idea of life rising from death - that is exactly what I think Jon represents. Even before his assassination attempt, he seems destined to be a Ghost, born with the dead.

The blue rose grew from the chink, and fills the air with sweetness, but she died seventeen years ago.

So--the sweetness of new life and hope. Even out of deceit and lies and "blue as the eyes of death."

Have you read Bitterblooms? It's worth it, and very short.

Text: docs.google.com/document/d/1FRfri5hipKL_rWR2tx14TVAwwyUYG24AueAHqMIrUCY/edit?pref=2&pli=1

Audio:

Yes--he has sealed his conviction on what the Watch should be with his blood.

So, now will his rise with roses?

Because of the rose, but not with roses, I think...

Like sweet love, Jon will fill the air...like the sun that rose to end the Long Night.

I can go with consciousness. Actually Lyanna in weir chair--seems like Ned would be less skeptical of the direwolves if this were the case.

Indeed. If Ned had physically placed her in the weir chair, I don't think he would have reacted that way to the wolf pups either. Although in truth, his reaction seems rather strange anyway. I'm surprised he required Jon to convince him Starks and Direwolves go together, and empower one another.

But yes, I lean towards Lyanna's consciousness being in that heart tree. Which reminds me of:

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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The Night's Queens, Brides of Fire, and Undead Kings Mar 14, 2016 21:11:49 GMT via mobile

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Post by wolfmaid7 on Mar 14, 2016 21:11:49 GMT

So, if you were doing the books' maps, the edges would be "here be Night's Kings?"

Even worse, I'd write it singular:

"Here be Night's King"
LOL

And, as I said above, what the precedent keeps getting mentioned. And associated with the Dragonknight--which is interesting.

It is. Mayhaps he was an Ice-Dragonknight.

YUP! And Martin's SSM chooses the language "the next Sword of the Morning rises." Rising seems innately tied to the sword and its bearer.

Rises is key. Sun-rise = Son-rise when we're talking about the Sword of the Morning.

I pointed out somewhere, perhaps my Dawn=Ice thread at the W, that rose can also be seen as the past tense form of rise. One is a noun, one is a verb.

If we add to this the fact that "blue roses" represent lies, not only in other literature, but in other literature by GRRM (Bitterblooms, among others), then it becomes quite clear that the Blue Rose represents a lie. Lyanna's lie = Ned's promise. And, as I've pointed out in both places, her lie grew into a chink in white armor. Arthur's armor.

It now fills the air with sweetness, and Lyanna told us that love is sweet.

So while he may have been born of a lie, Jon is still her 'love' filling the air.

Or even that the morality gets simplified. Beric's sticking with the basic plan. Cat's plan is extremely simple--kill those she thinks betrayed her. No nuance. Dany's is getting simpler, too, despite all the politics. The Stallion mounts the world. He doesn't engage it in diplomatic relations.

Reminds me of the Yeats line: "What could have made her peaceful with a mind that nobleness made simple as a fire?" Simple as in not nuanced. Not "simplistic."

Makes sense.

Well, Arthur does get Jaime's blood on Dawn. References Jaime's bloody knees. And says, "blood is the seal of our devotion." Am wondering if the burning sword with blood is a mongrelization of the same basic idea.

All true.

I'd only add that Jon is now the most devoted man of all, in terms of blood-seal. The "alive with light" blue-white ice crystal sword that guards the realms of men is now drinking his blood.

Or are you agreeing with voice that Lyanna's in the Winterfell crypts in a weirwood chair?

Either her body or her heart/mind/consciousness must be tapped into those roots. Ghost is the proof, imo.

Voice i think your getting tied up on the labels vs the core.What is a greenser? isn't it just a uber warg? A skinchanger.

Green,fire or ice is just a medium a conduit to work through that is it.The greenseers are the ones raising the dead my friend.

"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"

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The Night's Queens, Brides of Fire, and Undead Kings Mar 14, 2016 21:26:01 GMT

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Post by voice on Mar 14, 2016 21:26:01 GMT

Mar 14, 2016 21:11:49 GMT wolfmaid7 said:

the labels vs the core.What is a greenser? isn't it just a uber warg? A skinchanger.

Quite...but you are forgetting the core of each.

The core of a warg, the core of a skinchanger, the core of a greenseer - all connect through the medium of living consciousness.

Living consciousness is the core.

Mar 14, 2016 21:11:49 GMT wolfmaid7 said:

Green,fire or ice is just a medium a conduit to work through that is it.

Not so. While those are indeed mediums of magic, they are not mediums or conduits through which wargs, skinchangers, or greenseers operate.

Mar 14, 2016 21:11:49 GMT wolfmaid7 said:

The greenseers are the ones raising the dead my friend.

I hope you remember our bet... do you?

"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

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The Night's Queens, Brides of Fire, and Undead Kings Mar 16, 2016 17:04:10 GMT voice and whitewolfstark like this

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Post by SlyWren on Mar 16, 2016 17:04:10 GMT

So near and dear that I cancelled HBO after the Oathkeeper episode. I felt they spoiled what was hinted at for so many years in the books. It still pisses me off to think about it. Really stupid writing imo. How on earth did that baby live while being cradled by a white walker through the LoAW?!?!? C'mon now.

Silly voice.

It's obviously a set-up to show that the White Walkers are the saviors of Westeros.

That Jon must work with them to save the continent from

That way, when viewers complain, the show can say, "No! Look, see? The baby is all comfy--the cold is soothing! Cold preserves!"

But, we have no canonical reason to make that assumption. Unlike other kings, Night's King became Night's King during the Long Night, and gave his soul and seed to a woman that looked much like an Other. Also, kings serve for life, and the Night's King was never killed.

Kings do serve for life--unless overthrown and cast down. Which. . . the Night's King was taken down.

And on the bolded--the books don't say one way or another. So, no absolutes either way.

But we do have Beric--a king of Fiery Night's King. Who overthrows himself for the woman he serves. And thus gets deaded. And we have Jon getting overthrown--and deaded. And Stannis, with his fiery Night's Queen (dark and full of terrors) seems likely to get deaded in his overthrown, too.

Plus, to blatantly cross argue unworkable points: in your Catspaw thread, you do keep arguing that there's no way to effectively enact a coup without killing the deposed. . . so. . .

Seems like there's a reasonable amount of textual suggestion that Original Night's King = dead.

But--can we accept a substitute??

But yes, to the idea of life rising from death - that is exactly what I think Jon represents. Even before his assassination attempt, he seems destined to be a Ghost, born with the dead.

The blue rose grew from the chink, and fills the air with sweetness, but she died seventeen years ago.

Yes--and since the thread is about parallels and inversions--this seems like an inversion of Dany's rating of the dragons: active, genetic engineering via the Targs. Resulting in knowing sacrifice of an unwilling other.

Whereas--Jon's very possibly (if ALJ holds) born out of love and passion, not a genetic experiment. Natural growth vs. the unnatural union of Rhaella and Aerys. Sorry--one way or another, that was unnatural and horrible.

Blue rose just "growing" and "blooming." Vs. Dragons breaking the world.

Indeed. If Ned had physically placed her in the weir chair, I don't think he would have reacted that way to the wolf pups either. Although in truth, his reaction seems rather strange anyway. I'm surprised he required Jon to convince him Starks and Direwolves go together, and empower one another.

Yes--as whitewolfstark has said elsewhere--Ned and Sansa are similar. And in this case--not understanding the power of the north and the wolves until too late.

lucifermeanslightbringer.wordpress.com

But yes, I lean towards Lyanna's consciousness being in that heart tree.

Which is tied to those crypts.

And, back to echoes and inversions: the spirit of Ned goes back to the wtyrpts to talk to Rickon and Bran. Lyanna seems to be in those crypts for Ned. But Mel--her "consciousness" and seed (like a Night's Queen) ends up a dissipated shadow.

And the Targs--there are dragons in the tunnels under the Red Keep. Not people. Vs. both people and direwolves in the Winterfell crypts.

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

LmL
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The Night's Queens, Brides of Fire, and Undead Kings Mar 18, 2016 3:52:43 GMT via mobile SlyWren likes this

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Post by LmL on Mar 18, 2016 3:52:43 GMT

Those Targ suits of armor are under there too, that might be a parallel to the statues of the Kings of Winter. Ice actually noticed that Arya's chapters in AGOT with the dragon skulls is a direct parallel to the chapters in the WF crypts.

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The Night's Queens, Brides of Fire, and Undead Kings Mar 27, 2016 4:41:32 GMT

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Post by SlyWren on Mar 27, 2016 4:41:32 GMT

Those Targ suits of armor are under there too, that might be a parallel to the statues of the Kings of Winter.

ACK! I thought I'd answered you! I'm so far behind.

First up--I love this idea. And the idea that the armor is tied to a kind of identity and bloodlineage (if that's where you are going).

But with the Kings of Winter--are you possibly tying into @prettypig's idea that the suits of armor--particularly Rhaegar's black and red armor--are magical per se?

Ice actually noticed that Arya's chapters in AGOT with the dragon skulls is a direct parallel to the chapters in the WF crypts.

First up--Ice? did you mean voice?

Second. Oh yes! I agree. And Arya's memory when she's hiding after killing the stable boy ties them together, a bit, too. When she thinks of not being afraid of ghosts. Because the ghost is just Jon.

But the idea that the dragon skulls might be living, sleeping things. That the armor might be magical. We have Bronze Yohn's magic armor. Oh yes--I'm liking this idea.

Hmmm. . . but if the wildfire goes off, might that wake things or destroy them?

All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.

LmL
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∆ The Old One ∆

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The Night's Queens, Brides of Fire, and Undead Kings Mar 28, 2016 7:21:23 GMT via mobile voice likes this

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Post by LmL on Mar 28, 2016 7:21:23 GMT

Mar 27, 2016 4:41:32 GMT SlyWren said:

Those Targ suits of armor are under there too, that might be a parallel to the statues of the Kings of Winter.

ACK! I thought I'd answered you! I'm so far behind.

First up--I love this idea. And the idea that the armor is tied to a kind of identity and bloodlineage (if that's where you are going).

But with the Kings of Winter--are you possibly tying into @prettypig's idea that the suits of armor--particularly Rhaegar's black and red armor--are magical per se?