What do you think that Petyr's obsession with Harrenhal is about to represent or parallel? For some reason I can't shake the feeling that he has some relation to a previous House that has owned Harrenhal. His obsession with Sansa who is connected matrilineally to Harrenhal via her grandmother Minisa Whent.
Never really thought about this before and I'm coming up blank at the moment. One question for you though, do you think that he definitely has ties to Harrenhall himself, or is he echoing someone else who did?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
What do you think that Petyr's obsession with Harrenhal is about to represent or parallel? For some reason I can't shake the feeling that he has some relation to a previous House that has owned Harrenhal. His obsession with Sansa who is connected matrilineally to Harrenhal via her grandmother Minisa Whent.
Never really thought about this before and I'm coming up blank at the moment. One question for you though, do you think that he definitely has ties to Harrenhall himself, or is he echoing someone else who did?
Hard to say IMO. There are no shortages of fallen houses to go off of.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
1) True it was Cat first and Sansa is just the proxy to his obession. Keeps making me wonder if Baelish and Lady Stoneheart will meet. Since we never get his reaction to Cat's death.
Okay--I'd pay to see that meeting.
Wait--I will HAVE to pay to see that meeting. .. Never mind. But I would love to see that.
3) I think his grey-green eyes has some connection to the sea, that combined with Harrenhal makes me wonder. Then the connection to Bael the Bard. I do think Baelish has some other connection to Westeros despite his Braavosi heritage.
Hadn't thought of the eyes. To play devil's advocate. . . .Braavos is on the sea. . .
But the idea that he wants something in Westeros because of a tie-- I could see that.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Never thought about it that way. It is entirely possible. I was thinking that it was just an attempt to keep her safe.
Yes--I'm still into my "true knight" thing. So, I could see Arthur as doing it to keep her safe. And Rhaegar, too.
But given what it looks like Rhaegar was trying to do--having Lyanna as a piece to play of his own could come in handy at the end of the war. So--just how much might Rhaegar have learned from Tywin?
I'm still not sold on Arya's role in these echoes. Other than Ned suggesting that she reminds him of Lyanna, I've yet to see anything definitively tying her to that role. That's Sansa. As a complete ::crackpot:: Maybe she's meant to parallel Benjen?
Hmmm. . . Arya does say that if she could sprout wings, she might go home, or she might fly away forever. End up with a "brotherhood"--more than once.
You might be onto something. Either that or we have matching hats.
Well, it might have helped you out if I didn't have a typo from autocorrect there. What I meant to say instead of Mel was Kella. Morrigan, had speculated that she was mother to the Kettlebacks.
This could well be the case as well. It's hard to say what exactly Rhaegar was thinking. We really don't even know what kind of relationship, if any, he had with his mother and brother.
Yes--for someone so crucial to the story, it's amazing how little we "know."
In debates, people often talk about how certain people can't be important because we don't know enough about them. But even the key people--look how little we have on Rhaegar or Lyanna. On the Others. Martin really has refused to be forthcoming on a LOT.
Funny thing that you mention this. Have you ever heard of Cantuse? He has a new theory out on his blog today that Renly's armor was magical. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, though.
I think so--was he the one who came up with the theory that Rhaegar's harp is in the Winterfell crypts?
Reply's armor as magical. . . hmmm. . . .we've had a couple of traces of magical arms--Lightbringer. Dawn. the Mirror Shield. The Bronze Armor. But. . . would Renly know of such a thing?
That will be interesting to find out. I'm starting to think that there's quite a bit up with Pentos as well.
Oh yes. I don't know how much Martin will tie all of this up. Perhaps Poirot could show up, gather everyone into the country house, and tell us which butler did it all.
But I agree--Pentos is up to something.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Wonder why Petyr needed a wet nurse? What happened to his mother. Doesn't seem like they were wealthy enough to use a wet nurse for convenience.
They may have more money than the locals, which would make employment better than . . . whatever else they do there.
But I can't help thinking it's an echo of Edric's talking about Wylla. Baelish says Kella will be Sansa's pretend mother. Trust her to go along. Granted, he leaves her where she is. But he trusts them in that tower.
Like the Daynes trust Wylla? Or is this something else??
This makes me think about the Cleganes for some reason.
That's yet another potential echo between Baelish and Tywin, maybe?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Yes--I'm still into my "true knight" thing. So, I could see Arthur as doing it to keep her safe. And Rhaegar, too.
But given what it looks like Rhaegar was trying to do--having Lyanna as a piece to play of his own could come in handy at the end of the war. So--just how much might Rhaegar have learned from Tywin?
I'm still sticking to my original interpretation on this one. Tywin had the quail (Lyanna) and the black cat, the REAL King of the castle (Rhaegar) stole it away. Now I guess it's possible that Rhaegar had ulterior motives in doing this, but I highly doubt that Ned would consider Arthur the finest knight who ever lived if he was somehow involved in exploiting Lyanna. So either Arthur was protecting her from Rhaegar as well, or Rhaegar didn't have ulterior motives. Could be either, I guess. Another thought. In the Arya chapter where she is chasing cats, it's stated that the Red Keep is full of cats. Does that mean Targaryan loyalists?
Hmmm. . . Arya does say that if she could sprout wings, she might go home, or she might fly away forever. End up with a "brotherhood"--more than once.
You might be onto something. Either that or we have matching hats.
Why yes she does. And Jon has that quote in one of his chapters when Mormont asks him if his horse has wings. Plus, in those parallel fight scenes both Jon and Arya play the same role, that of the"Bastard." It's something I've wondered off and on, but haven't seen any concrete evidence to support. Trying to keep an eye out for some...
Yes--for someone so crucial to the story, it's amazing how little we "know."
In debates, people often talk about how certain people can't be important because we don't know enough about them. But even the key people--look how little we have on Rhaegar or Lyanna. On the Others. Martin really has refused to be forthcoming on a LOT.
think so--was he the one who came up with the theory that Rhaegar's harp is in the Winterfell crypts?
Reply's armor as magical. . . hmmm. . . .we've had a couple of traces of magical arms--Lightbringer. Dawn. the Mirror Shield. The Bronze Armor. But. . . would Renly know of such a thing?
Pretty sure that he might have been. I think that he's best known for his "Night Lamp" theory for the Battle in the Ice. He also suggested that Theon wrote the Pink Letter. Anyway, I finally got around to reading it, but I wasn't as impressed as I hoped to be. Basically it was based on the fact that Tobho Mott made the armor for him. It's possible, but I'm not sure how likely.
Oh yes. I don't know how much Martin will tie all of this up. Perhaps Poirot could show up, gather everyone into the country house, and tell us which butler did it all.
But I agree--Pentos is up to something.
LOL. Now if only I could remember where I was going with this point.
They may have more money than the locals, which would make employment better than . . . whatever else they do there.
Rock climbers? I was wondering if it was demonstrating an absent mother? If I remember correctly, we only ever hear about his dad. Was his mom either a current or an escaped Silent Sister?
But I can't help thinking it's an echo of Edric's talking about Wylla. Baelish says Kella will be Sansa's pretend mother. Trust her to go along. Granted, he leaves her where she is. But he trusts them in that tower.
Like the Daynes trust Wylla? Or is this something else??
Hard to say. There's not a lot there so far to make a judgement on that, is there?
I'm still sticking to my original interpretation on this one. Tywin had the quail (Lyanna) and the black cat, the REAL King of the castle (Rhaegar) stole it away. Now I guess it's possible that Rhaegar had ulterior motives in doing this, but I highly doubt that Ned would consider Arthur the finest knight who ever lived if he was somehow involved in exploiting Lyanna. So either Arthur was protecting her from Rhaegar as well, or Rhaegar didn't have ulterior motives. Could be either, I guess.
Very possible. And Baelish's statement that he can't take Sansa home is rather accurate. despite his motives.
Getting Lyanna home would have been . . . difficult.
I just can't shake the feeling that Rhaegar, trying to unite the kingdoms and take control, would see "Look! I rescued your sister from my Mad Dad!" as an EXCELLENT way to turn the tide. Might have kept Lyanna safe and sound, waiting for the opportune moment to do this.
Why yes she does. And Jon has that quote in one of his chapters when Mormont asks him if his horse has wings. Plus, in those parallel fight scenes both Jon and Arya play the same role, that of the"Bastard." It's something I've wondered off and on, but haven't seen any concrete evidence to support. Trying to keep an eye out for some...
The Winged Wolf thing pops up now and again, doesn't it.
Basically it was based on the fact that Tobho Mott made the armor for him. It's possible, but I'm not sure how likely.
Yes--I've been wondering if Tobho Mott isn't as grand as he thinks he is--he understands a lot about Valyrian Steel, but not enough to realize he really can't do what he wants with Ice. Only some of it. Only sees the problem after he tries. Seems like he only knows so much.
I was wondering if it was demonstrating an absent mother? If I remember correctly, we only ever hear about his dad. Was his mom either a current or an escaped Silent Sister?
Absent mother--maybe. We do find out his mother was called Alayne, right? Which makes his giving Sansa her name even creepier.
Hard to say. There's not a lot there so far to make a judgement on that, is there?
HA! No there is not. But this scene, this whole chapter--it could have taken place a lot of other places. They could have sent word an done directly to the Eyrie. But Martin takes the time for this. . .seems like people like Kella matter a bit.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
"You did, my lord. You said you'd be getting some more men too, but you never did. Me and the dogs stand all the watches."
Again--the tower is inhabited and "cared for"--but it's undermanned, mostly guarded by dogs, and barely inhabitable. Seems like Martin is telling us about abandoned towers.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
"And very well, I'm sure. No one has made off with any of my rocks or sheep pellets, I see that plainly." Petyr gestured toward the fat woman. "Kella minds my vast herds. How many sheep do I have at present, Kella?"
She had to think a moment. "Three and twenty, m'lord. There was nine and twenty, but Bryen's dogs killed one and we butchered some others and salted down the meat."
"Ah, cold salt mutton. I must be home. When I break my fast on gulls' eggs and seaweed soup, I'll be certain of it."
"If you like, m'lord," said the old woman Geisel.
Lord Petyr made a face. "Come, let's see if my hall is as dreary as I recall." He led them up the strand over rocks slick with rotting seaweed. A handful of sheep were wandering about the base of the flint tower, grazing on the thin grass that grew between the sheepfold and thatched stable. Sansa had to step carefully; there were pellets everywhere.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Not too much here--but does show how hard it is to get decent food in the middle of nowhere.
Thin grass--a kind of desert. Stone instead of sand--but still, very little to live on.
And the sheep--not really safe or vast. No real protection for anyone.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Within, the tower seemed even smaller. An open stone stair wound round the inside wall, from undercroft to roof. Each floor was but a single room. The servants lived and slept in the kitchen at ground level, sharing the space with a huge brindled mastiff and a half-dozen sheep-dogs. Above that was a modest hall, and higher still the bedchamber. There were no windows, but arrowslits were embedded in the outer wall at intervals along the curve of the stair. Above the hearth hung a broken longsword and a battered oaken shield, its paint cracked and flaking.
Within, the tower seemed even smaller. An open stone stair wound round the inside wall, from undercroft to roof. Each floor was but a single room. The servants lived and slept in the kitchen at ground level, sharing the space with a huge brindled mastiff and a half-dozen sheep-dogs. Above that was a modest hall, and higher still the bedchamber. There were no windows, but arrowslits were embedded in the outer wall at intervals along the curve of the stair. Above the hearth hung a broken longsword and a battered oaken shield, its paint cracked and flaking.
The device painted on the shield was one Sansa did not know; a grey stone head with fiery eyes, upon a light green field. "My grandfather's shield," Petyr explained when he saw her gazing at it. "His own father was born in Braavos and came to the Vale as a sellsword in the hire of Lord Corbray, so my grandfather took the head of the Titan as his sigil when he was knighted."
"It's very fierce," said Sansa.
"Rather too fierce, for an amiable fellow like me," said Petyr. "I much prefer my mockingbird."
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Well, it might have helped you out if I didn't have a typo from autocorrect there. What I meant to say instead of Mel was Kella. Morrigan, had speculated that she was mother to the Kettlebacks.
Sorry, I didn't see this. So my thought was that Mr. Kettleback produces young hefty sons for his Lord to hire. Then you have a rotund woman in the manse with her feet in the air. Made me think of an overturned kettle. Then there is the Dagda, an Irish god with a kettle of abundance that never stops. Just free-association with Petyr's needs and desires
I just can't shake the feeling that Rhaegar, trying to unite the kingdoms and take control, would see "Look! I rescued your sister from my Mad Dad!" as an EXCELLENT way to turn the tide. Might have kept Lyanna safe and sound, waiting for the opportune moment to do this.
I'm not necessarily ruling it out. I just haven't seen enough to make up my mind.
Yes--I've been wondering if Tobho Mott isn't as grand as he thinks he is--he understands a lot about Valyrian Steel, but not enough to realize he really can't do what he wants with Ice. Only some of it. Only sees the problem after he tries. Seems like he only knows so much.
But is that more to do with Tobho Mott or with Ice?
HA! No there is not. But this scene, this whole chapter--it could have taken place a lot of other places. They could have sent word an done directly to the Eyrie. But Martin takes the time for this. . .seems like people like Kella matter a bit.
Again--the tower is inhabited and "cared for"--but it's undermanned, mostly guarded by dogs, and barely inhabitable. Seems like Martin is telling us about abandoned towers.
It certainly does, doesn't it?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Not too much here--but does show how hard it is to get decent food in the middle of nowhere.
Thin grass--a kind of desert. Stone instead of sand--but still, very little to live on.
And the sheep--not really safe or vast. No real protection for anyone.
I was trying to see if I could make any more out of it, but I'm at a loss. Although, if the TOJ was in the mountains it might very well have been surrounded by stone as well. There is the mention of rocks and sheep pellets again. Keep thinking that means something, but who knows?
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?