(f)Dany

I am not convinced they are alive either, and would actually prefer they were dead, because I don't like all the "alive but with a secret identity that is right in front of us" theories, but I guess if that happens, it happens. And you are correct about Howland feeling like a shadow in this story, but on multiple occasions we are given the idea that he is alive.



I wonder about their armor? But we might have a precedent for them continuing to wear white cloaks while acting on their own. I don't think armor is mentioned much, but Whent is noted to wear a white helm but with the black bat of Harrenhal on it. But what armor are any of these men wearing? When Jamie killed Aerys, he wore his personal golden armor, but still wore his white cloak. Now, he might have continued to use the white cloak because it bought him passage back into the throne room and the ability to get close to Aerys, but in many ways, he might have felt like he was being more loyal to the realm than the king, so a "realms-guard" instead of a kingsguard. Could the three white cloaks at the toj have acted in the same way. Jaime's speech is always slightly belligerent, some thing we perhaps hear from the kingsguard in Ned's fever dream, so perhaps that is another pattern that is repeated. I am a firm believer that this story, both past, present and future can be figured out if we combine a series of clues from different era's and places. So, maybe we can learn more about the kingsguard at the toj by studying Jaime in the throne room.

Arys Oakheart is another moment to learn from. He has acted in some way that he knows is dishonorable, he has broken his chastity vows (some men might not be bothered by this, but he is) AND taken part in a kidnapping of Myrcella, and he truly doesn't really know what will become of the girl after this. He trusts that Arianne means the girl no harm, but that could have been a lie too. He clings quite strongly to his white cloak. I don't believe he is wearing his personal kingsguard armor but he is wearing his white cloak when he died. I am not sure his last hurrah is an attempt to protect Myrcella or Arianne or if it's a suicide by police type of action, but he has clung stubbornly to his white cloak.

And while rereading Arys death scene, I noticed that he comes off his horse and is on his knee's when he dies. It doesn't specify if he is in the water or still on the plank to the ship, but I don't know how you fall off a crashing horse and don't end up in the water (unless the plank is 20ft wide and that defies logic). His head flies into the reeds on the riverbank. Suddenly, I was struck perhaps by how similar that is to Littlefinger in the water whispering Cat's name, and what Dany's vision of a dying prince in the water looks like and even our imagery of Rhaegar's death, and this moment with Aerys feels a bit like a slightly altered version of those other things. More repeated themes...

Anyway, Arys is acting on his own with motivation from another, but still clings to his kingsgaurd cloak, as almost a banner of honor, but while acting in a possibly dishonorable way. And this is certainly seen with Jaime when he killed Aerys, cloaked in honor while doing dishonorable things. So, why could this concept not apply to the three kingsguard at the tower of joy, cloaked in honor while doing dishonorable things. Perhaps that is why Arthur Dayne has a sad smile on his face?



I have toyed with this idea as well. That the white walkers can come and go in the right circumstances. And I think this could apply to Mel's shadowbabies as well. They still exist but have dissipated, but might be able to reform under the right circumstances. Interestingly, if they are similar, the white walkers and the shadow babies, they both seem to walk in the night. It's funny that one of Mel's greatest weapons seems to only walk in the night! I wonder if she realizes, and if so, how she justifies that in her mind with her fears of the night and the dark. If this turns out to be the case, I wonder if Mel understands the shadow babies still exist?



I like to give Samwell some credit for this act, as well. It was brave, even though he was terrified. Sam the Slayer! And if that nickname sticks, even though he is quite afraid of most everything, in makes me wonder about other stories from the past, about brave men who are remembered for one great act, while the truth might be that they were crying and nearly shitting themselves in fear, yet some how prevailed. Perhaps even a member of Sam's family, such as Savage Sam Tarly's actions during the Vulture Hunt. Truth versus fiction. GRRM plays with that a lot.



Yes, it does make me wonder if Coldhands eyes are entirely black? That would be creepy, but would fit the raven's eyes in description. Though, I just did a little raven eye color hunting and found that adult raven's have brown eyes, though it's a small portion of the eye that actually appears brown. So, perhaps this is like you had mentioned above, that these "black eyed" human character's have dark brown eyes, or large pupils, or something that gives them the impression of black eyes when it's actually false. Apparently, baby raven's have blue eyes, then turn to grey, and finally to brown in adulthood. Who knew? I wonder if GRRM does?

But back to Coldhands, does it mean his iris and pupil are dark, surrounded by a white globe, as most humans would appear, or is something different going on?



I think there is a strong connection between them in how we view the story. Certainly as morale compasses, even though neither man is perfect. But Ned is only alive in the first book, and we don't meet Davos until the second book. It's like Davos has stepped into the series and assumed some kind of a role that Ned had previously had. Both are honorable to the point of endangerment to themselves, honest to the point of getting themselves killed, loyal to people, almost to the point of blindness (Ned with Robert, Davos with Stannis), both made Hands to Baratheon kings. Years ago, I had made a list of comparisons and contrasts but I put that in a box when I moved two years ago and still have not unearthed it, but I had planned at that time to write an essay on how I think they are almost shadow's of each other in the story. I might be wrong, of course, but I think GRRM is playing with them as an archetype of a sort. Years ago, I read a series of posts talking about how honorable Ned must have been a virgin when he married Catelyn, and never knew another woman in a carnal manner, because "he's honorable". AND he loves Catelyn! But we have a strong example of Davos both being honorable and loving his wife and family, but he plainly tells us he has known other women and not always been the most loyal husband. It doesn't diminish Davos in my eyes, and neither would it diminish Ned Stark. Life is complicated at times and GRRM mostly gives us complicated characters.

Another similarity is Ned plans to leave Cat in Winterfell and possibly not see her for years while she is taking care of home and raising the younger children while he raises the elder children. This sounds just like Davos, who leaves his wife at some castle in the Stormlands and while she raises the two youngest children, while the elder children are with him serving the king. So many similarities that I see between the two but I admit that might not be GRRM's intention with the characters.



It would be interesting if Gerald Hightower and Rhaella had some type of affair. There is precedent in the story about allowing a kingsguard to be too close with a queen in her private time. Jaime and Cersei are prime examples, but this is also raised in theory with Margaery and her time with Loras, even though most people are not willing to jump into this path, Cersei knows it's possible. So, if Rhaella did have a final child with a kingsguard, Hightower is an option. So are Arthur Dayne and Lewyn Martell as far as I can think. And maybe Jonathor Darry. But because we are talking about the "white bull" concept, in Greek myth, the white bull has a child with the queen, and that child becomes the monstrous minotaur who is locked in the labyrinth and is used to terrify the population. So, when looking at it from that angle, then Hightower and Rhaella make the most sense. And it would be heartbreaking to think that Hightower had to stand outside a room and guard a door while Aerys brutalized the queen, a woman he might love.

Also, if Hightower and Rhaella had a monstrous child, who is it? Dany once calls her dragons monsters and then says she is a monster, too!



I think GRRM could be using the word quite intentionally, or it could just be exactly as you describe and he is pointing out large and confusing buildings. Both make sense to me. But I do find that the Hightower in Oldtown is one of the labyrinth's in the story, and it is also associated with a "white bull" in Gerald. And perhaps the "bull" concept will be more apparent in the future, but it seems like many of the great old families of this story had associations with some kind of animal. Uthor of the Hightower is the oldest of the Hightower's we hear of and he is married to one of Garth Greenhand's daughters, whom I think they all have skinchanger blood, and might have passed that down to their children, hence an association with animals. Although I admit that the only bull we have in the Hightower mix is Gerald, so I might be following the wrong path.

As to Winterfell being called a labyrinth, I find that interesting, because I think it's a maze both above the ground and below it. Could someone become lost in the crypts below the castle? Also, some creatures as said to be trapped in mazes and labyrinth's, such as the Minataur. There is no monster associated with ancient Troy, but that city and it's walls have been also likened to being mazelike. Winterfell labyrinth qualities don't seem to apply to the walls, with the inner and outer walls being separated by a moat, but the maze could be in the series of courtyards and inner buildings. And what lies below the earth.



I thing Bloodraven is the top contender for most people, but I find it odd that in Bran's dreams the three-eyed crow calls himself that, yet when Bran talks to Bloodraven, Bloodraven seems confused about the crow reference, and then seems to think that Bran means that Bloodraven was once a Night's Watch member, a crow. It seems like there is some disconnection there, but I admit that sometimes I want the mystery to be deeper than it needs to be. Also, at this point, Bloodraven has roots growing out of his eye sockets, so his thought process might be faulty!



I do suspect you are correct and he is being antagonistic. And he is like there on multiple occasions with her. I agree the term "god of darkness" seems quite deliberate, however, as if it's not the first time he has said such a thing. Perhaps that is part of a smuggler's pantheon?



Yes, and he also seems quite open to other idea's and beliefs. Except Mel! He doesn't seem to like her beliefs but he might actually dislike her belief system on principle because of how it's effecting Stannis.

Understanding exactly what went on with Jaime is certainly a puzzle, and I agree we don't really understand much or any of that, and I am not sure that Jaime's character does either. He is a man of impulses, although he was premeditated enough to change out of his white armor and put on his gold armor. And then afterward, he apparently hunted down the pyromancers. Or is that from the show? Sometimes I get those details confused in my mind, but it is in the books (I had to check), how he killed a pyromancer and then Aerys, and then hunted several other pyromancers down. Yet the fact that he did have his golden armor on does seem premeditated.

But in comparison, I was thinking more about the after affects. After Jaime killed Aerys, he climbed the iron throne, claiming it is some way, and then he waited, with his sword across his lap. This looks like a denial of guest rights, especially to someone raised in the north, such as Ned Stark. But how can that after affect compare to what we know of the toj incident from Ned's dream. And since it's from a dream, most of the details could be incorrect. But we have Ned again riding up to a tower (similar to a throne) with some companions, and he is greeted by three kingsguard in white cloaks, at last one with his sword drawn (similar to Jaime seated on the throne with a bloody sword in his lap). From Jaime's perspective, it seems like he expected to be lauded for his actions, or at least thanked, but he was scorned. Could something similar have happened at the toj? Could the kingsguard have acted in their way, thinking what they did would be lauded by Ned Stark, but that was not the case? And if so, what could they have done? I admit this line of thought could be a huge leap, but it might be worth investigating.



The highlighted line could explain Rhaegar's motivation. We know that Arys Oakheart did profane his vows in some way, which certainly was a lose of honor to himself, and other's might view it that way as well. But Rhaegar wasn't a kingsguard, and we don't know if adultery for a husband is considered a dishonor in this society (Robert did it all the time, but if Cersei is proven guilty, she will be found guilty of treason to the king), then what was Rhaegar's dishonor? It has to be somewhat different than Arys Oakhearts. If looking at Littlefinger in the river, he did not commit a physical sin with Catelyn, although he might have declared that he did. And he was also trying to win the hand of the women he loved. Could Rhaegar have lied about his actions with some woman, causing this whole mess, therefore seeking battle to restore his honor. Or was Rhaegar, like Arys Oakheart, backed into a corner of his own making (with plenty of other manipulations) and acted in the only way he could. Arys's situation certainly feels like suicide. They were plainly outnumbered that day and I doubt he really thought he was going to prevail. So, could Rhaegar have also hoped to die that day? My mind is going in about a million directions with this.

One thought I had in regards to Rhaegar wearing his Targaryen themed armor, is that if he chose that armor to repair a mistake he made, could it be possible that his mistake perhaps altered his loyalty to his family, or at least perceived loyalty? And now, by battling on the royalist sides of the battle, he is trying to show his loyalty to his family, his father, the line of Targaryen rulers?



I had to look back to the text, because I wasn't sure, but Arys was wearing his white cloak from the moment he and Myrcella joined Arianne's group at the well. He is wearing a doublet with Oakheart leaves on it, and a light helm, but the white cloak was always on him.



Well, there is certainly that aspect to the Myrcella story, crowing a new ruler. Myrcella before Tommen. I suppose there could be the idea that the kingsguard at the toj were trying to crown a new king. It's in Jaime's story as well, waiting to see who would come claim the throne. It wasn't the new king though, it was his buddy, that staked the claim.

And yes, it's possible this could tie to any child of Rhaegar's, if any had survived. Or even Viserys, I suppose, as he would also be a viable heir after Rhaegar's death.



But Ned never acts like he feels he is dishonorable by naming Robert the new king. Even if he is angry and disappointed in Robert's reaction to the Targaryen children's deaths, he still is riding around helping liberate Robert's home castle, and declaring Robert king to those enemies who laid siege to Storm's End.

As to whether Ned thought he and his men would die, it's hard to say. They had the numbers, seven to three, and it appears they were mounted, and not a foot, which is also an advantage. Looking back on the Arys Oakheart scene, the fact that he is mounted is his only real advantage. He doesn't have the numbers and he wanted to claim the boat (the high ground, kind of). But we do know that Arys could have surrendered, but chose to battle instead. I think he didn't want to live with his level of shame. So, which party does that apply to at the toj? Ned and his grey wraiths or the three white cloaks?



I would agree this is not an exact representation of what happened. It's quite stylized and plays out quite gallantly, as if for a story that Old Nan might tell. The whole dream is that way, which makes it a tricky thing to interpret.



There is certainly bravado involved in this dream retelling. I don't know if some of the verbal bravado is planted in Ned's mind because the events leading up to this dream involve Jaime and Ned battling on the streets, and Jaime's verbal delivery is quite flippant. Until he is immediately angry when he hears that Tyrion is captive to Catelyn. And Ned does deliver a clean lie here, when he says it was on his command. It certainly was not on his command, and he is covering for Cat's outlandish behavior, but it should allow us to wonder about lies told on both sides at the toj.

As to Ned hinting that the kingsguard had failed in their duty by not being at the Trident, I suppose there could be some of that, but if the men had orders to be somewhere else, then it can't be dishonorable to have not fought. Unless they missed the Trident based on their own choices, and not on orders from their king or prince, and that is what Ned is hinting at.



They never claim they don't kneel to their king, or any man, but SAD does say their knee's don't bend easily (which seems to be connected to the Dornish in general and perhaps the wildlings). So, not kneeling at all, just perhaps not kneeling to many men. Yes, bend to Aerys and Rhaegar, but no to bending to Robert, or Ned as a surrogate. They do declare that kingsguard do not flee, which might touch back a bit on Arys Oakheart's choice to attack instead of surrender or flee, which is what Gerald Dayne did. He cleanly got away! And could that Dayne escape here hint at a Dayne escape from the  toj?

But Arys does seem to have the motivation of protecting Myrcella, declaring they would not take the girl as long as he lived, which is ironic, since Arys himself has taken her and placed her in the custody of people who wish to use her to steal the throne. Could something like this have been going on at the toj? Twisted logic if that is the case.



I agree that the "vow" that Hightower talks about is quite vague. Could be his kingsguard vow, could something else entirely. Jaime certainly talks about all the conflicting vows that knights take, and how to decide which takes precedent over another vow. It's certainly complicated. But for the kingsguard at the toj, if Aerys is dead, and they know it, and Rhaegar is dead, and they know it, then those kingsguard vows shouldn't really matter. But of course they still could, to either the surviving Targaryen royal family or the throne itself. But he says "we" swore a vow, so whatever vow he is talking about, it seems he shared it with Whent and Dayne, as well.



Perhaps it's as simple as Ned and his men swore a vow, as well?



It seems like Whent and Dayne have actually been absent for the whole war. Hightower perhaps joined them later, but that information comes from the App, which I am not at all trustworthy of, since it's Elio's creation and contains information that is not available in the text or SSM's from GRRM.

Lyanna certainly plays into this in some way. But Rhaegar is never mentioned in this dream. He fought and died (so we are told) at the Trident but he is never mentioned in this exchange, nor are his wife and children. As a matter of fact, Rhaegar, Elia and their two children are not at all mentioned in this dream. The rest of the royal family is, however. Aerys, Rhaella and Viserys. And no mention of Rhaella being pregnant in this exchange, and that would have to be something Ned knew about, if not then, then certainly now.

Bed of blood certainly does seem to tie to childbirth, but I can also agree with arguments that say it could mean a different type of injury and death bed, as well. And if she did have a baby, and I do agree she probably did, that doesn't mean that Lyanna was at the toj or was even alive at this point in the story. This dream could be a conflation of multiple events and memories. The dream world is bizarre!

I am also conflicted about how many people were at the toj. Was it just the seven plus three that are mentioned by name, and possibly Lyanna, or could there be multiple other players who don't take center stage (like the people who swear there must be a maester and two female servents to help with the delivery of Lyanna's child). When Jaime's men attacked Ned's men in the streets, Littlefinger was involved but left (to get some help), and after it is over, Ned talks about faces watching from windows and people emerging from doorways. So, this could have also been something that happened at the toj (what ever that is) where there were witnesses to what happened. And in both times, it seems Ned was injured. We know of the broken leg in Kings Landing, but there are hints that Ned's life was saved by Howand, so that could imply another injury for Ned. He may also have not been injured. There is no proof, either way.

There is no doubt that Lyanna plays a role in Ned's toj fever dream, but it's less clear to me that she played an immediate role in the actual event. She is almost placed at the end, is a fleeting way, but it's also very dramatic, and because it's at the end, you remember it. And storm of rose petals (storm's always bring Baratheon's to mind for me or Dany the Stormborn), rose and rose petal's (for Lyanna, or at least a Stark female), then blood streaked sky (could be a smoke filled sky, or a sunset or sun rise) and eyes blue like death (makes me think of the Others). But this is the oddest part of the dream, and hints to me that Lyanna was not at the toj, because she is tied to blue eyes of death/the Other's, and I cannot believe that a representation of the Other's was at the toj, which was in the Red Mountains of Dorne. Unless Lyanna is the Other and she is dead (or not quite alive) and giving birth.

Steel and Shadow is also quite a strong bit of phrasing. It sounds a bit like a 1980's romance novel title, but the idea of steel meeting a shadow is very interesting, and brings to mind Waymar Royce's duel with the White Walker from the prologue. Ned Stark has quite a bit of imagery going on in this dream that doesn't seem like it could be directly related to the Prince's Pass.

When I think back at storm of rose petals it does in several ways potentially link Lyanna to Dany, or Robert to Dany, but could it be both? It's hard to imagine, because that should mean that Lyanna had Targaryen blond hair, because we know that Robert does not. Although the GRRM has been very vague about Lyanna's physical description. She looks like Arya, but is that in regards to features or coloring or both? Jon seems to look like Ned (features and coloring), who seems to resemble both Rickard and Brandon, although Rickard's coloring is vaguely absent, as well.

And speaking of coloring, I noticed this yesterday, but it didn't feel like it had a place in the discussion, but since it won't get out of my mind, I wanted to mention it.


So, Myrcella is compared to Cersei, which certainly makes sense. But Trystane, of Dornish blood, is compared to Robert. We know that Robert is dark haired, but his skin color is never discussed the text. But here, Arys Oakheart makes note of Trystane's olive skin and straight black hair. So, does Robert have olive skin tones? Or is the reference more general, to darker skin than the "pale as milk" that is tied to Cersei and Myrcella. Because this in ways reminds me of the old argument about Jon Snow's skin color.


I have heard the argument over the years between Jon being dark haired or dark skinned, based on this line. I have always argued that this line is in relation to hair color, or general appearance, with Robb being light in comparison to Jon, and Jon being dark in comparison to Robb. Not necessarily in skin color, but in overall appearance. But now I wonder a little bit, when comparing Trystane Martell to Robert Baratheon. And how that could apply to Jon Snow. Could this link Jon to Dornish blood? Or could it link Jon to Baratheon blood? Jon is often compared to Ned Stark, but has Ned ever been called "dark" in comparison to any other character? Not that I know of.

Also, I checked "swarthy" as a description, and it's tied to some Dornish, but not all, and surprisingly, Jorah Mormont. It's only in the text 4 times, once for Jorah and twice for random Dornishmen and once for Garin, Arianne's milk brother who is an orphan of the Greenblood. I don't know if "swarthy" and "dark" skin have any relation. Or if it might tie to "olive" skin.

And perhaps all of this means nothing, because "olive skin" isn't really dark skin, just a different undertone, and Robert Baratheon could easily have olive undertones while not being linked to Dornish blood in any way. And maybe it all rolls down to Arys, not the brightest light bulb in the package (according to Arianne) making a general comparison between the light of Cersei and Myrcella to the "dark" of Robert and Trystane.

Sorry for that little rabbit hole. Back to Ned and Arthur. I agree that both the beginning and ending could be the same incident, just the perspective alters the meaning. Or Arthur means the battle begins while Ned means the war ends. Or could it have do do with the Sword of the Morning's role? It could be interpreted in many ways. SAD's smile is sad, Ned's voice is sad. No matter what the beginning or ending means, neither man is experiencing joy. Yet the Dawn sword is "alive with light", almost as if it has been activated in some way. Anticipation, perhaps?

Jaime thinks he did the right thing, but I am not so sure. I think it would have been better to capture Aerys, and then let him be tried. Or executed by one of the rebels. And I think on some level, Jaime must agree, or he would have tried harder (or at all) to explain his perspective and actions.



It's from the bath tub conversation. He talks about the things the men offered him in exchange for their lives, but he says he killed them anyway.



I think the parallel could be interesting, but I am not quite sure how it could fit three men who could have different thoughts and motivations against the actions of one man (Jaime). And the three kingsguard all have different body posture and therefore body language in Ned's dream. Whent was on his knee's, which could be seen as supplication but then he contrasts that by sharpening his sword. His stance is the most detailed. Hightower is standing between the other two and there is no mention of his weapon, and Dayne isn't really noted to be standing or sitting or anything, just that his smile is sad and Dawn is noted over his shoulder. The only detail in that is that he has not drawn his sword in any act that could be seen like aggression. But later in the dream Dayne does unsheath Dawn and this is who Ned seems to make contact with. From Ned's perspective, it never details when he and his northern companions drew their swords. Perhaps they always had them out.

But the three kingsguard all acting in slightly different ways sort of hints to me that while they appear a united front, they might not have all been on the same page. It does seem like Jaime is on the outs with these three, otherwise why would they call him "false brother"? That must be whom they refer too?

And yes, it's hard to balance the meaning of the dream conversation against what might have been the actual conversation. But they dream actions and methods have to mean something, either in Ned's psyche or to what really happened that day.



If the two situations have anything in parallel as far as the next heir to the iron throne, then perhaps Rhaegar was also trying to place his elder daughter on the throne before his younger son? That would parallel Myrcella and Tommen's situation in some way. I think we have discussed this possibility before. Or if Rhaegar wasn't, some member of the kingsguard was trying to do this. Could it be the princess Rhaenys in the tower? I have long felt like she survived.



I agree that the war seemingly started over Rhaegar's actions, even if they are misunderstood, and that it would look pretty bad for the supporters of the crown if Rhaegar appeared to be in hiding and not fighting. I think Rhaegar would be aware of how this could be perceived and probably felt like he would need to take some action to rectify that perception. Maybe why he brought soldiers from Dorne to the battle at the Trident.



If I am wrong in Arys Oakheart's motivation, which is the only reason I am thinking suicide by battle, then that might not apply to Rhaegar. Or it doesn't have to apply down to the most finite detail. Because, based on Jaime's words, it seems like Rhaegar planned to either win or find peace at the Trident and return to make some changes. So, that part doesn't sound like a man who wanted to die. And is also seems like Robert and Rhaegar battled almost to a standstill, another thing that hints that Rhaegar was not attempting to give up and die. It's hard to say if he was surrounded by a guard to protect him at some point in the battle. We are not told that he was. It doesn't seem like Robert was, either. I am not sure if GRRM intended for them to be surrounded by guards, but we do have precedent in the story with both Robb and Joffrey being surrounded by a guard to protect them. Of course, they were both considered children, and GRRM seems to consider Robert and Rhaegar adults, and they would have been 18 and 22-23 for Rhaegar, I think.




I agree we are missing an important detail or two about Rhaegar that will make sense out of all the oddities. To make it all fall into place.



Cersei absolutely thinks that Ned could have been king. Perhaps it's because he did claim the throne from Jaime, certainly in a physical way, but perhaps in an emotional way as well. I am not sure that Jaime meant to give the throne up. He killed a king and then marched up a stairway made of swords to sit on the throne with a bloody sword across his lap. Jaime must understand how that would look to anyone who came upon him and his stance. I think Ned's icy grey stare made Jaime aware that more battle would come. Although, if it came to it, one would expect that Jaime would beat Ned in a 1:1 battle. But Ned's men were with him when he entered that throne room, and might have outnumbered the men with Jaime.

As to how the Kingsguard at the toj might have viewed that, it's hard to say. Could they have known that Ned claimed the throne from Jaime in the manner he did? But they plainly call Robert the Usurper, hinting they know he is now considered the king. The amount of knowledge and information that the kingsguard seem to have about current events also seems odd to me. Of course, this is all from Ned's dreams, so in reality, the kingsguard might not have known as much as we think they did.



If there is regret from Ned's perspective, he keeps it well hidden. Ned was also perhaps fighting mostly in a way to seek vengeance and justice against a family that had done his family harm. Aerys killed his brother and father (and several other men from the north) while Rhaegar (as far as we know) dishonored his beloved younger sister. Ned might not have been fighting to change the political landscape as much as he was fighting for his family. Rebellions come with all sorts of motivations, but everyone has to live with the fallout!



I am not sure, but his words are what really motivates Jaime to anger and action, although Jaime was premeditated enough to find Ned in the streets and have five times the amount of men that Ned has available to himself. Jaime certainly put himself at an advantage and then he pretty much gave an execution order against Ned's men. As punishment? In a vindictive way? Jaime seems to know that he cannot have Ned killed or Robert would be livid, but yet he seeks to push the situation about as far as he could. And then he flee's the city in a rather cowardly way. Not the act of a man who is proud of his behavior. Or who thinks its defensible. 

But back to Ned's reason for the lie, I am not sure what his motivation was. Mostly I think he was trying to protect Catelyn, because she stands to be in a heap of trouble over her actions (kidnapping Tyrion could be seen as treason, since he is by marriage, a member of the royal family), but I suppose he also wants to appear to be in control in front of the enemy. And if you don't appear to be in control of your own family, how can you hope to be in control of a kingdom. Which is a sad statement about Ned's handle on most of these situations.



Well, that statement touches back on Jaime not being allowed to fight at the Trident. Aerys wanted to keep him close at the Red Keep, and Rhaegar would not or could not supersede that order. A lot of Jaime's actions seem to be caused because he felt "dishonored" by someone or something. Yet it's Jaime who often mocks honor and oaths.



I am not sure. I am just working the parallel angle to see what stands out. If the situations can be compared, we have one Dayne fleeing in our present story, and we are certainly not sure of his motivation with Arianne or any of that business, except it was he who suggested that Arianne have Myrcella killed as a method of starting a war. But then, in the confusion of the battle with Arys charging Area Hotah and his men, we are told that Gerold Dayne escaped. We are also told that he tried to take a swing at Myrcella, but that has always seemed not quite to fit, even though just pages before he had threatened the girls life.

So, what if SAD did flee the toj? It's hard to imagine, especially since in Ned's dream, it's him and Arthur that crash swords together, as if they were in the center of the battle. I am probably quite wrong about even pursuing this parallel because it doesn't really fit what I think of for Arthur Dayne. But escape doesn't really fit Gerald Dayne either, but it seems like that is what happened.



Well, he is clearly a bit of a mess. We meet him first in his own POV, where he declares that he will break off with Arianne and her plots and then quickly, and with little motivation, falls into bed with her. And follows along with her plans for Myrcella!



I agree it seems odd, and could be perceived poorly by the general population. But if they had orders to be elsewhere, I think they could be protected from censure. We see that in a way with Jaime, who wanted to fight at the Trident so badly, but was forbidden. Of course, Jaime got his own bit of revenge. Perhaps we can look to that parallel with the kingsguard? They wanted to fight in the war, but were forbidden by other orders, and finally took matters into their own hands and brought down a portion of the Targaryen power structure, much like Jaime did.



Yes, Lyanna is mentioned in that first paragraph, but it's not real time in the dream, it's like a synopsis of events to come. The tower gets mentioned in that first paragraph, and again later, but that doesn't mean the tower is the first thing that Ned see's in his dream. And that paragraph tells us this is an "old dream", but that doesn't mean the dream is an exact representation of past events and details.

That paragraph that starts the toj fever dream is quite similar in cadence to Cersei's "Maggy the Frog" dream and Varamyr's "nearly dead" dream.

She dreamt an old dream, of three girls in brown cloaks, a wattled crone, and a tent that smelled of death. AFFC-Cersei VIII

He dreamt an old dream of a hovel by the sea, three dogs whimpering, a woman's tears. ADWD-Prologue

Cersei tells us that parts of her dream are not like they were in real life, though I don't know about these three details. These details do seem to fit Varamyr's memory and are consistent with his dream. Except the sea aspect. I am not sure Varamyr grew up by the sea, but he could have.

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. AGOT-Eddard X

So, perhaps these three things that Ned opens his dream with all do involve the same moment and a true memory, which could put Lyanna with kingsguard by a tower long fallen. But that phrase is interesting, because in the midst of Ned's fever dream, the tower isn't fallen, it's just noted to be a round tower, whether it's standing or not is not a detail that is given. On this, as much else, I find myself conflicted with the details given.



This is a memory of Ned's, not a dream, and it doesn't seem to fit the dream details all that well. Who were they? It could have been Howland, after all the other's had fallen at the toj, it's possible, but the memory implies that it was someone as well as Howland that found Ned with Lyanna's body. At least Howland plus one.

And this could be like I mentioned with Ned lying in the street. He knows there were watchers from windows and doorways, and soon people arrived on scene, people who were not there when the battle in the streets happened. I swear I can argue myself in circles about these details.



Do you mean Mel's shadow baby that killed Renly? I don't know if a weapon even threatened that shadow. But the shadow weapon easily went through Renly's armor, his steel gorget.



But not all dark haired people have olive skin. And there isn't much about the Baratheon's that lend to the more exotic tones of Dorne or the free cities. I don't see olive tones for them at all in any detail, either. And yes, I agree that olive tones in our world tend to hint at Mediterranean blood.



I found a few other incidents where fair and dark are compared, and these seem to indicate hair or overall appearance, not tied to skin tone.


This does mention Lady Merryweather's olive skin tones, but olive isn't really dark, it's kind of a greyish green undertone. At least when it comes to make up!


This distinction between fair and dark is completely related to hair, as GRRM makes apparent in the second paragraph. Which could be a retcon/explanation of a long standing fan argument about Robb and Jon being fair and dark.

There are a few instances were dark is used as a descriptor against fair, but fair is used to describe attractive or handsome looks, such as with Gerold Dayne or Terrance Toyne, and those don't seem to apply back to Robb and Jon, unless GRRM is saying Robb is handsome and Jon is not. I found one that seems to indicate behavior, with dark being bad and fair being good. Again, not related to coloring at all. It's certainly not obviously consistent. 

I had not considered the situation at Duskendale, so that might have played into Jaime's choice. I can see that possibility. But the Duskendale situation also didn't lead to a kingdom wide civil war/rebellion, so the situations are not a direct comparison. Back to Jaime's choice in regards to Duskendale, IF Tywin was responsible for stirring up that situation and it failed to remove Aerys and Jaime knew it, perhaps that did play more into the idea that Jaime might have been acting under some orders from Tywin when it came to Aerys death.
They didn't want to fail this time.



I do think the one knee concept is a bit of supplication, or perhaps a proposal of a sort. Like a classic marriage proposal. However, sharpening his sword and offering his sword are two completely different processes, but what if Whent's meaning was supplication and offer of his sword (a clean or sharp sword) to Ned, but Ned misunderstood and viewed it as a threat? It does seem like by Whent remaining on his knee, he is either not afraid of Ned and his men, or is trying to at least give that impression.

In my mind, I have always imagined that the kingsguard to wear and keep somethings that hint back to their own family or region. But if I really think about it, I am not sure any of the other kingsguard do this (except Jaime), so perhaps this is a hint that Whent was acting on his own by this time, and sort of half representing the kingdom. Much like Jaime in his golden armor and white cloak. It seems like from Ned's dream, all three kingsguard were wearing white cloaks, but what about their individual armor? Perhaps that is a hint that these three men, just like Jaime, had moved in some way against the Targaryen's and their rule. Yet, to make it confusing, they seem to condemn Jaime's actions.



I always have interpreted that both men understood in some way they were destined to battle, or could not avoid it, and were both sad, because that is not what they truly wanted.



Ned seems likely to not let his men strike unarmed or unprotected or unprepared men, so perhaps Dayne drawing his sword was the sign that battle could not be avoided and both sides were prepared and given the green light? It might have been a prediscussed sign?



This seems like a reference that fit's Jaime and what we know of his actions best, but GRRM is tricky, so perhaps it means something else. It's right in our face, but we can't see the other possible person it refers to because we are so focused on Jaime. So, that could leave Barristan, who is the only other kingsguard who is yet alive, as Lewyn Martell and Jonathor Darry are dead.



It is an odd aspect of the plot, the Myrcella story. But I tend to think he writes in layers and shadow hints, so it makes sense to me that the Myrcella plot is a hint of a past echo of something that happened. Which would make sense if someone wanted to place Rhaenys on the throne ahead of an infant Aegon. And since I think there is a intriguing possibility that Arianne IS Rhaenys, then it's even more fitting. Arianne/Rhaenys is unknowingly performing the same thing with Myrcella that someone in the past wanted to do for her. But perhaps I am being wildly optimistic about GRRM's level of plotting?



At least from Jaime's perspective, Rhaegar was not considering suicide by battle. But Jaime isn't always the most perceptive person in the story, so he could be wrong, or even misremembering in some way. But I tend to take this memory as the actual events.



Maybe Rhaegar did know this, but his guard somehow abandoned him? Purposefully left Rhaegar unprotected? So he could be killed? I do think there could be hints of this with Barristan Selmy, and I think you were the one who brought this to my attention.



I have never thought about it in this way, but I think that Cersei did learn something from what happened to Jaime. It makes perfect sense. She thinks she is smarter than Tywin and maybe in some ways she is. She was not going to let Ned Stark take the throne from her family again. I don't think Tywin was really wanting to pledge loyalty to Ned or his group, and part of me thinks that Tywin orchestrated what happened to Rickard and Brandon, (and perhaps even Lyanna) and Ned was well aware. I don't see Ned and Tywin being cozy after the rebellion, even to pretend to be cozy.

In a way, she warned Ned about it in the godswood, but he didn't understand. I didn't either, until now!



Jaime didn't fight for the throne, he claimed it and then backed down. Joffrey might have as well, had Cersei not had the throne room prepared. I think if Jaime had not wanted to walk away from the throne, things might have ended differently. If he and Ned fought one to one battle over this, then it's pretty likely Jaime would have been the victor. And Robert might have arrived to a Kings Landing that not only didn't welcome him, but might have not let him enter, and then he has to fight all over to take the city, and he has lost Ned and his men as an ally. 



Several good questions and observations. I don't have a good answer for any of it, but it's certainly seems like we are missing something important in the exchange.



Maybe Ned believed these three men should be loyal to the new king, Robert Baratheon. But they throw that right in his face, calling Robert a usurper. Which makes me question that if they were not supporting Aerys or Rhaegar, and they were not supporting Robert, then who were they supporting?



I do think he has some regret, and I think it ties to his promise to Lyanna. What did Ned have to set aside to keep his promise to Lyanna? Jaime and Ned might have more in common than we think. Deep internal conflict might affect them differently;  Jaime is more fire and flash and it shows, while Ned is more ice and stone and that conflict is hidden.



If Jaime knew that Littlefinger gave him the information, he didn't let on, so either Littlefinger did leak that information to Jaime, but he did it secretly, or that information didn't come from Littlefinger. Varys is another option.

And yes, Jaime might have been hoping to force Tyrion's freedom, but if so, his reaction didn't help. Tyrion ended up free based on not one thing that Jaime did that day. Jaime reacted, caused a much bigger problem, and then ran away from the mess.



I think Davos feels inadequate too, but his street smarts might benefit him. He also has a bit of perspective from both upper and lower class life. And maybe some luck. Or plotting. There is no doubt that some of Ned's actions are based on the reasoning that GRRM needed Ned Stark to fall, because Ned's death triggers so many more things in the plot. Ned get's played to some extent because GRRM needed him too get played.



Yes, I agree. And the discussion is interesting and though provoking, even if we don't find a conclusion. The discussions also trigger other idea's and concepts, too.



I am so tied to the idea of parallel's and echoes of the past, that is the way I try to dissect most of the unknown aspects of the plot. What do we know that could parallel something that we don't know. Of course, I might be absolutely mistaken with this method.



I guess in a way, that is what Jaime did in King's Landing, after his men attacked Ned. He kept himself free to continue this own plot line. Otherwise Cersei might not have been as free to act as she did, and Joffrey might have actually lost the throne based on other things. It's all like layers of an onion.



For so long I have thought that Lyanna was not in the tower or even close to it, that perhaps that has blinded me. It might be time for a review of my basic thoughts about this situation.



Yes, the cold, which is similar to when the Others/White Walkers show up. One would almost think that a shadow born of a fire priestess would be hot, but that shadow is actually cold. Or the cold is a nod to death being cold, and this shadow brought death, regardless of the origin of the shadow?



I think of Olive complexion as being slightly grey or greenish in undertone, but that is based on make up. I suppose women think about make up and foundation choices more than men, and while I don't really wear foundation any more, if you don't have the right undertone to match your complexion, it's a mess. So, olive meansgrey/green coloring to me, maybe even because olives are commonly green that this makes sense to me. Olives from an olive tree that are common in the Mediterranean parts of the world, but olives certainly vary in shade from lighter to darker.

In a way, it would make sense if Robert was olive toned skin because his talk to Ned about warm weather and fresh fruit and wine and the heat really fits a more Mediterranean concept of life.



I don't always think of fair as being tied to a blond type of beauty, but beauty non the less. In the Disney version of Snow White, she is light of skin but dark of hair, and she is considered quite "fair" as in "Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who is the fairest of them all?" I think of this "fair" in regards to beauty, not color. Of course, other version of Sleeping Beauty might not have involved her being a black haired, but that Disney version has stuck with me since I was a child.

I agree there is little consistency in how GRRM uses it, and there is a bit of real world confusion about it as well.

I am sure there was hope for more people to join into supporting Darklyn's cause at some point, which seems to be about taxation and trade rights, but I am not sure it wasn't until Darklyn found himself trapped into a corner that he felt that way. Tywin was instrumental in refusing Lord Darklyn's request, so he might have been hoping that would anger Darklyn enough that he did something stupid. Which he did when he took Aerys hostage. Still, if Darklyn wanted Aerys dead or off the throne, he could have or would have killed him. Instead, he held him captive, which really could only end badly for the Darklyns. This also could have been an impulsive act on the part of Darklyn, one that he found himself stuck with. Time only made the situation worse. And Tywin did tell Aerys not to go to Duskendale, but did he do this is a manner that promoted that Aerys would want to go against Tywin's recommendation? The two men were pretty much on the outs by that point. Certainly there are layers to what happened and what was intended with Duskendale. But from what I read of the situation, I don't think it was intended to be a rebellion, at least on a national level, more of one family/area demanding personal rights.



I do think there are examples in the text of the kingsguard wearing items that hint at their family, but besides Jaime, Arys Oakheart is the only one that comes to mind easily. In early chapters of Clash from Sansa's POV, he is wearing the golden oak leaf sigil of his family, and this is noted again in the Feast chapters from Areo Hotah's POV. We know that Jaime wears the Lannister lion or his family's colors often, but Jaime tends to not think any rules apply to him.

As for the Night's Watch, Mormont gives Jon Snow a weapon to carry that has the Stark family's direwolf sigil carved right into it. I know that could be argued to connect to Jon personally through his connection with Ghost, but I think most people recognize that Jon Snow is of Stark blood, by his looks and his direwolf. I thought there was a description of Jeor Mormont still wearing a bear pin, but I can't find it, so I might be wrong about that. If I have time later, I might look for a few more examples from either the kingsguard or the night's watch, but they might not exist, either.

In a general manner, with either Jaime or Arys Oakheart, neither of them seem to feel that wearing their family sigil or colors makes them any less of a kingsgaurd. They still seem bound to their vows. Arys even dies for his vows.



You might be sad if you knew you were going to lose. There is something about how Dawn was "alive with light" in that scene that makes me think it was a sign of something that probably only Arthur Dayne would recognize. Hence he was sad. I don't think we get the impression in the dream that Ned was sad, only from Bran's perspective from something Ned had said later.



Even if it was supposed to be a ritual action between Ned and SAD, there would be no reason for the rest of Ned's men to rush forward, which they do, with their shadow swords in hand. At least in Ned's dream, it seems it meant battle. Of course, a dream doesn't indicate what really happened.



Once I seen a few hints about Arianne, it's an idea that I can't get out of my head. There are many things that make it difficult to believe, especially that Rhaenys and Arianne are potentially 5 or 6 years different in age, but age is something that can be lied about and people fooled over. I think there are hints of this with Daenyers, and perhaps even Aegon/Young Griff. Anyway, I am probably one of the very few people that thinks Rhaenys/Arianne is a possibility, but I will cling to the idea stubbornly until I see proof that makes it not possible. Which might be never.

And I do think that GRRM probably does have the capability to plot that deep, but I guess I could only wonder if he did it in this case. I don't think we even get hints of Arianne until well into the series. I think Arianne isn't named until Storm, and that is in regards to Myrcella and Arianne getting along. Probably looking back, that's a sign that Arianne might have always been grooming Myrcella to jump a head of Tommen, and that might hint that Oberyn's role in Kings Landing was perhaps to make sure Joffrey died. That has to happen before Myrcella could possibly claim the throne.



Yes, GRRM does give us examples, such as what you mention, of peoples own thoughts being quite inaccurate.



I agree that it's an interesting possibility. And perhaps that is one of the reasons that Barristan so strongly clings to supporting Daenerys now. Because he has guilt over his past decision that might have betrayed Rhaegar.



It's hard to know the depth of Tywin's plotting. We know he is smart, and he is ruthless. But I wonder how much time he really wants to bide while letting things fall into place? And he must worry constantly about what his children are going to do to mess up his plans. And he is sometimes unrealistic. He still clings stubbornly to the idea that Jaime is going to inherit and rule Casterly Rock, but that possibility should have gone away when Jaime took his kingsguard vows. Even murdering Aerys didn't shake Jaime loose from that pledge.

I have no doubt that Tywin thinks Ned is probably stupid but I don't know about easily manipulated. Though potentially he could use Ned's stubborness against him.



Yes, Cersei is willing to fight until the bitter end, to the death of herself or her children. Another thing that worked in her favor was Ned's compassion toward children. Ned has also completely weakened himself of his own men and supporters, which made him vulnerable. He was using his men to protect the realm, but it weakened him immensely.



Traditionally, the kingsguard have served for life. Their life, not the life of the king. They have served each subsequent king when the previous one died, no matter his death. The only time we see some aberration from that rule is during the Dance of the Dragons, when we see a split kingsguard, each supporting their own monarch. I think they are expected to serve the next king, whether they like that person or not. There is not a new crop of men that are made kingsguard with each new monarch is crowned, it's the same men, perhaps with a few new ones added it. It's not until this business with Barristan Selmy and Boros Blount that a kingsguard member is even set aside, with Cersei in charge of that decision and setting a new precedent. One that trickles up to the wall, and inspires Robb Stark to get Jon Snow out of his night's watch vows. I still think the kingsguard is more a protector of the role of king, whom ever that is, and not the one man who wears the crown at any particular time. Otherwise we would see shifting kingsguard with every new monarch, but that's not what happens.

As to loyalty and liking, Robert named Mandon Moore to the kingsguard. He was a knight from the Vale, but it doesn't sound like either Jon Arryn or Robert Baratheon particularly liked the man, or vice versa, but still, he was named to the kingsguard. So, it's not about liking a person at all. Mandon Moore is interesting, because Jaime considers him dangerous. As dangerous as Jaime himself, which is odd, because Barristan Selmy is still considered to be perhaps the best fighter on the kingsgaurd. Sorry for that little rabbit hole...

As to kingsguard wearing their family sigils, I will have to look into the text a bit more. There is the example of Arys Oakheart, but perhaps that can be taken as a hint of what is future action was going to be, although from Sansa's POV in Clash, there are no other hints that Arys was going to betray the king, who was Joffrey at this time, but will soon be Tommen. Arys is a rule follower, for the most part, so we have to look at him a bit different than Jaime Lannister and his choices. But with Jaime, we have the whole series showing him splitting his clothing, armor, colors, etc, between the kingsguard white and the Lannister red and gold. 

But if Whent was wearing a white enamel helm, that hints that it was made for his role as a kingsguard, was the black bat added later, after he shifted in some way, or was it always there, as a sign of honor to his family and house?



This may be a failing in my POV, but I tend to see Ned and Jaime as a bit alike as well. Two men who might have been similarly torn and made decisions that involved a lot of internal conflict. They don't seem to like one another, but perhaps if they even had just talked, they might have seen they had some common ground. I tend to think they are more alike than either of them would ever believe.



I actually do think that Ned would have acted more reasonably in regards to Tyrion, if he had been able, but Cat somehow lost all of her power in that play to her sister, even allowing Lysa that farce of a trial. That's always been a weird plotline from GRRM, because it's not really logical. (again, I think this comes down to GRRM needing the Stark's to fail, even if it's not logical). Tyrion was still Catelyn's prisoner, regardless of where they were at, and so Lysa should never have been able to usurp Cat's control there. But she does. And then, no matter what Ned would have wanted would not have mattered, because those Tully sisters had fooked it all up.

As to Jaime, this showdown in the streets and killing Ned's men was just stupid. Stupid, because as you point out, what did Jaime think to gain from that action? The only thing it could lead to was more division and strife, but perhaps we will find out that Cersei set Jaime up in some way. She can certainly manipulate him. She says he acted stupidly, but does she really mean that she didn't orchestrate it.

But you are correct that neither Ned or Jaime is particularly good at politics, another way they are similar.



To some extent, but that is the nature that GRRM gave him, and GRRM always knew from the start that he needed Ned Stark to fail in Kings Landing.



Well, until we get an ending to the series, we will not be able to see all the parallel's for what they are, but I am certain they are there, and he is telling us both history and future in the present story line.



Well, I am going to try to look all this over with the idea in my mind that Lyanna is at the toj, because I need to challenge my own assumptions at times. But I wonder if it's possible she was at a different location, with three kingsguards. We know that there were three kingsguard knights together at the Trident: Barristan Selmy, Jonothor Darry and Lewyn Martell. What we don't seem to know about at the Trident is a tower. We also have three kingsguard at Winterfell for Robert's journey north. We have Jaime Lannister, Boras Blount and Meryn Trant, and at Winterfell we do have a tower long fallen. Could that tower be associated in some way with Lyanna? I know that dreams are funny, but given the comparison to Cersei and Varamyr's dreams, it does seem like Lyanna's bed of blood, a tower long fallen and three men in white cloaks are tied to one locations. But how are they tied? GRRM likes to imply things that then turn out not to be the truth, and that is how I started looking at the text at least five years ago now. Implications should be mistrusted!



Well, I have suggested that all the magic/power comes from the same source, and how you use it is the only difference. Most people probably using the magic don't understand that. Much like the dream stream all has the same source, but how you tap into it is a bit different. And I see several hints that the white walkers and Mel's shadow babies are eerily similar. But if you tied to convince her that she could be using the same magic that is tied to the Great Other, my guess is that she would deny the possibility. 

I don't think that anyone really thought Aerys was crazy or impaired or needlessly cruel until after Duskendale, although they might have thought he was an arrogant ass. I just wonder if it was rather a spontaneous action by Lord Darklyn to kidnap Aerys. I mean really, what was the man thinking??? And Aerys went to Duskendale with very few people to guard him, so it seems like it all just fell into place. I do suppose it's possible that it was premeditated on Darklyn's part, but if you are going to start a rebellion and kidnap a king, you better start sending some ravens with "S.O.S.'s" so you can drum up some support. If that happened, we certainly haven't heard about it. However, I suppose Darklyn could have been fooled into believing that his actions would raise some help. I do favor the idea that Darklyn was used as someone's pawn.





I hadn't really thought about the last name aspect, but that is something that both kingsguard and night's watch are allowed to retain, which does seem different from septons and maesters. In this world, if you have your last name, you always have some connection to your family or house.

As to what Jeor was thinking when he had the pommel carved in the likeness of Ghost, who just happens to be the exact type of beast as the Stark sigil, he certainly seems to be connecting Jon as a Stark. Because a Snow could be a bastard of any family from the north. And while most people seem to recognize Jon for looking like the Starks, by wearing their sigil on his back, in some way he is also claiming that status. Jon might not understand that, but Mormont should.



Well, since GRRM writes implication well, all the while leaving the truth quite cloudy, I do think it's possible that because it's implied that they fought at the tower of joy, that in reality they did not. But I can't make sense of the clash of swords aspect of Ned's dream if something like that didn't occur. Of course, I have tinfoil that I cling to quite strongly that Ned with Ice and SAD with Dawn did clash, and that Dawn was broken in that conflict. There is really no outright hints that Dawn is broken, but I can't put away my idea's that it is indeed "a broken sword" in our story.

However, I am not trying to take your theory away, and I can understand the reasons to doubt it came to battle, but I can see that a reason that both Ned and SAD were sad is because they knew conflict was unavoidable. But Ned's dream might have little to do with reality, and SAD might not have been sad in the real life event. Or the swords might have only clashed in the dream and never in real life.

And yes, it's possible that Ned's men did misunderstand. Or acted regardless of their orders because they were trying to defend their Lord against a man who is no doubt a better swordsman. Much like happened with Robb at the Whispering Wood, which is another possible parallel.



I actually think Myrcella is quite smart for her relative youth, and I think she is kind hearted, but not to the point of nonsense. As to her right to rule, I wonder if she is aware that Cersei feels like she was shafted out of rule of Casterly Rock. After all, Cersei is the first born, she just unfortunately was a female. Now that Myrcella is introduced to Dornish custom of the eldest being able to rule, regardless of sex, she might very well step into that role. Does she do it while cutting Tommen out? Or does something happen to Tommen and that makes it easier for her to step forward? Ironically, both Myrcella and Tommen are tied to the throne through Robert, who is not their biological father. But he is still their legal father, so that might not stand in her way. But it might eventually!

And oddly enough, Cersei might actually support Myrcella on the throne as well, because she might prefer the influence of the Martell's to the influence of the Tyrell's. Who does she think she can manipulate more? She has pretty much fooked herself in regards to the Tyrell's. 



Maybe he did see some signs of insanity in Rhaegar. After all, Aerys bout's of "madness" didn't come until later in his life, and Rhaegar's might have too. We meet a Viserys who was around 20 years of age, roughly the same age as Rhaegar at Harrenhal, who already shows a cruel streak. If that is the case, then Dany might have time working against her. It makes me think of how some mental health issues such as schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder don't show up until late teen and into early twenties. I'm a bit of an asshole about Rhaegar but I would kind of like to find out that the perfect prince had some issues that no one wants to talk about.



I do think that Tywin likes to be the power behind the throne, but I am sure pride would let him prefer that throne to belong to his family as opposed to another family. I think he would have been satisfied with Joffrey or Tommen, since they are his grandchildren, but going back to that rebellion time frame, I bet he would have been perfectly happy if Jaime had claimed the throne. It seems like that is what Tywin's men in the throne room expected to happen, so why would Tywin not expect this also? Tywin didn't seem to think very highly of Robert, so I don't know how content he was with that rule, but he is certainly capable of playing a long game and biding his time.


If Jaime was instructed to take the throne from Aerys, then I have a hard time believing part of that also involved giving the throne away. I mean, whether he personally gave it to Robert or to Ned, the throne was still in Robert's hands from the moment Jaime walked away from it.



This would not be the first time there has not been a clear transition of power in Westeros. But according to Ned's dream, the three kingsguard seem to strongly feel that Robert is a usurper. Of course, usurper can be defined as a "person who take a position of power illegally or by force" or "without right". I don't know about legality of the rebellion, but that certainly fit's "force". Maybe they would have been willing to support him, given time, but they still felt like he gained his throne in an incorrect manner. After all, Barristan does this very thing when he supports Robert.

But I also don't think the kingsguard is supposed to decide who is king, only to support who is king. But that has also been a problem in the past for Westeros, especially with Ser Cristen Cole. And of course, that situation lead to a kingdom wide mess.



Great collection of quotes! I did remember that Mandon Moore was aligned with "dead eyes" but I had not realized it comes so often in the text. Now, I certainly have a theory that Sansa has some ability of sight, or foresight or second site or to be connected to the dream stream in this world, whatever you want to call it, and her first impressions are interesting. Although her first impression of Joffrey is blindly naive, so I am not sure where she goes so wrong in that case.

As to Mandon Moore, his is an interesting story. He is drowned in the Blackwater, but I will need to look back into the text and see if they ever found his body. There are several people who are drowned who may not be dead, and perhaps Mandon Moore is another one. As far as I can see, there is no proof of his body turning up. I need to ponder this idea for a bit. A man with dead eyes to be dead/drowned but with no body as proof. It reminds me a bit of the Hound at the quiet isle, his persona dead, but not the physical man, who is given a new chance as the Gravedigger. At work this week, I might need to investigate some Mandon Moore theories if I have time.



I like this. It would fit them both. Two men at the same crossroad, but each takes a different path.



I think we have two potential fallen towers at Winterfell. The Broken Tower is standing but abandoned and has stones fallen from it (from a lightening strike). The First Keep is standing intact at the start of our story, but a whole side falls away after the fire set by Ramsay's men. If Ned is attached to the dream stream, he might have had premonition on his side, knowing the First Keep would some day fall. There are several other broken or fallen towers that I am paying attention too, but those are the only two that fit at Winterfell, I think.



I cling to several of my pet theories stubbornly, and I don't think there is anything wrong with doing that. Hopefully time will reveal it all, but until we get more of the story from GRRM, all we have is theories and rereads.