(f)Dany

Wraith

The generational lines that I was talking about are discussed here:

thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/290/generational-analysis-asoiaf

But I think you get a picture when you think of things this way:

220 - 239 = Artist (Jaehaerys II, Duncan, Olenna, Barristan, Hoster, Jon, Rickard, Quellon, Tytos) - Jon Arryn, Quellon Greyjoy, & Hoster Tully both display the common trope of elder Artists holding together a wide-consensus that only they can hold together through an intricate series of compromises, deals, and diplomacy, that falls apart upon their deaths, Olenna is also in this camp for much the same abilities. Barristan in his advice to Daenerys is most definitely an Artist archetype. Tytos is the most negative portrayal of the Artist archetype (especially as a parent) in the series with his indecisive and sensitive nature, forcing his son Tywin to forge with blood & a strict vision what Tytos should have been able to forge together with compromise and diplomacy. Duncan & Jaehaerys seem "right" to fill out the generation. Rickard is an Artist archetype (his demand for due process by showing up in armor for his Trial by Combat, his politicking with Hoster & Jon, his presumably stressed relationship with Lyanna, etc.) who thank his lucky stars is succeeded by a Nomad who is more responsible than his elder brother would've been.

They largely fill the Artist (sometimes referred to as Adaptive) archetype role, which in storytelling but also real life is commonly portrayed as the compromising statesmen who are always seeking diplomatic resolutions to issues where possible. A subset of this group are the lone rebels who buck the trend of the otherwise quiet and conformist majority of their peers. Largely they wish to follow in the footsteps of their elders, but are willing to compromise when they recognize that something of their elder's is at fault, but they're not willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater like their younger peers.

"Artist generations are born during a great war or other historical crisis, a time when great worldly perils boil off the complexity of life and public consensus, aggressive institutions, and personal sacrifice prevail. Artists grow up overprotected by adults preoccupied with the crisis, come of age as the sensitive young adults of a post-crisis world, break free as indecisive midlife leaders during a spiritual awakening, and age into empathic post-awakening elders. By virtue of this location in history, such generations tend to be remembered for their quiet years of rising adulthood and their midlife years of flexible, consensus-building leadership. Their principle endowments are often in the domain of pluralism, expertise and due process. These have been sensitive and complex social technicians, advocates of fair play and the politics of inclusion. Positive reputations have revolved around them being thought of as caring, open-minded, and an expert. Negative reputations have revolved around them being thought of as sentimental, complicating, indecisive."

I argue the above cohorts as an Artist archetype generation because their childhood was marked by the following:

Wildling Invasion, Battle at Long Lake, Peake Uprising, Great Council of 233, Second Red Spring, Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion, Betrothal Scandals, Aegon V faces inabilities to pass reforms due to lacking dragons in his opinion and far too conservative and rebellious lords.

After 241, while there are rebellions they're spread farther apart and far more minor.

They are the leaders and commanders by the time the Ninepenny Kings War rolls around, in the prime of middle age or just entering middle age. They are largely skipped over in a chance to rule on a National level, though they usually prove to be (where they rise to be lords of their own lands) capable compromisers and coalition builders, keeping the more radical, idiotic, and splintery elements of their juniors in check. This is the generation that attempts to filter out the follies of the younger generations, unfortunately they are not wholly successful, and death does come to claim them eventually.

I then break down the next generational age grouping as such:

240 - 260 = "The Mad" Generation - Prophet (Aerys II, Tywin, Elia, Oberyn, Bonnifer, Rhaegar, Arthur, Kevan, Gemma, Gerion, Tygett, Mace, Balon, Doran, the High Sparrow) - So named because they're almost all characterized as "mad" or "obsessed" about something (the other meaning of "mad"). To some extent they seem to come off as a critique of Baby Boomers by a Boomer (Martin is one himself) who dislikes what they've become with age, while admiring the potential that they held in their youth. Tywin, as I mentioned above, had to do double duty for his ineffective father, but what marks him as a Prophet rather than an Artist is that he does so with an uncompromising vision in his mind's eye of what House Lannister should be. An Artist would accept multiple views of how things ought to be, but Tywin's singular driving vision is what really makes him stand out as a Prophet archetype. The High Sparrow is more typical of the type of character which gives this generation the name of the Prophet archetype. Balon is a Prophet who's succored heavily on religion and conservative rebelliousness.

Prophet (sometimes referred to as Idealist) -- commonly portrayed as the Wise Old Man/Woman in literature, OR the obviously morally right young protagonist campaigning against a corrupt old system headed by an old king who sacrifices the young to an outright evil monster (essentially Perseus; or Marina from Shakespeare's Pericles); unlike bland Heroes (listed below) these protagonists have moral convictions to lead them on the path that they know must be done--it isn't a matter of "duty" for them, but one of what is morally the "right thing to do"--with often the "right thing to do" being what THEY define as "right", not what society defines as "right".

"Prophet generations are born after a great war or other crisis, during a time of rejuvenated community life and consensus around a new societal order. Prophets grow up as the increasingly indulged children of this post-crisis era, come of age as narcissistic young crusaders of a spiritual awakening, cultivate principle as moralistic midlifers, and emerge as wise elders guiding another historical crisis. By virtue of this location in history, such generations tend to be remembered for their coming-of-age passion and their principled elder stewardship. Their principle endowments are often in the domain of vision, values, and religion. These were principled moralists, summoners of human sacrifice, and wagers of righteous wars. Positive reputations have revolved around them being thought of as principled, resolute, and creative. Negative reputations have revolved around them being thought of as narcissistic, presumptuous, and ruthless."

The "Mad" Generation largely has most of the negative traits of a Prophet Generation, with very few of them having the redeeming better qualities. The admitted and labelled "best" of the crop of their generation seems to have been killed off during Robert's Rebellion (Ser Arthur, Elia, Rhaegar, etc.).

-----------------------------

More later.

1. Well done!

2. I had missed this specific point completely. Yes--a trip TO Braavos seems odd for dragonlordlings. Though we have a hint of something like this with what Lady Dyanna noticed here: thelasthearth.freeforums.net/post/24512/thread.

3. On the quote though:


We get a lot of talk about colorful sails in the novels. But green sails? In all of the books (including World Book) the only other mention of green sails is from Davos.

It may be nothing, but it's gotten stuck in my head so I figured I'd inflict it on you. ::silly::

Dany's green sailed ship--a Lyseni pirate ship? At the very least, seems like it's Lyseni.

If nothing else, it might fit with your travelogue breakdown.

But it might also set up for the Lyseni and/or pirates being involved.

And they are in the area for lemons, yes????
Back in a bit to dig into the rest of your ideas--again: Fabulous. :::

A great find! I'll admit I skipped right over the sails because I figured hey, some Tyroshi or Qartheen lots of people probably had green sails and it was nothing. But if only Lyseni, and possibly Saan have them, then that's a great catch.



Well just spitballing but off the top of my head some implications could be

- Viserys just picked up "Dany" from Lysene and she's just some random slave girl
- Lysene isn't that far off from Dorne, and it's possible that Dany just got picked up from Dorne on a Lyseni ship
- Dany could've been in Lysene the whole time no matter who she was, and Lys does grow lemons
- I pegged Dany somewhere between 4-5, or at least young, but Dany "supposedly" doesn't go anywhere near Lys until she's probably like 12 years old based on her travelogue where Lys is the second last stop before being in Pentos, where she's either 12 turning 13, or just turned 13 given that she's 13 years old but had been there for 6 months
- No real time that they ever go Lys -> Braavos, they go Lys -> Pentos. Which is below Braavos

Also don't forget that a former Saan was a member of the Band of Nine that helped in the last Blackfyre Rebellion. Saamaro Saan aka the Last Valyrian. The world of Ice and Fire notes that he is an ancestor of Sallador Saan.  Also one of Sallador's ships was named Old Mother's Son.  Old Mother is  the name of another Band of Nine member.  An interesting connection to say the least.

Please forgive my out-of-order quotes, but there's a method to the madness. Sort of.

Definitely intentional. He inserted "Braavos" as Dany's point of origin. And then goes on to describe Braavos in great detail from other POVs. None of these other POVs lead us to believe it is a place known for its open windows through which one might enjoy the scent of ripening lemons. That's 100% Red Door(ne).

I think your citation below all but proves this discrepancy is not only not-nothing, but completely purposeful with telling consequences:

Hats off to Victarionchainbreaker for pursuing the questions and getting a response... We need to invite that guy over here.

Yup that was me. Thanks for the hat tip.

Viserys was shipped like Stannis' onions - under cover of darkness on a ship with moonlight shimmering upon its black sails. Who sails in darkness to Dragonstone...with black sails? Most like those oars were a-muffled m'lord.

We even have a recreation of young Viserys' flight 'to Dragonstone' in the flight of another King's young son 'from Dragonstone' -- Edric Storm. Onions and heirs, both are contraband in times of rebellion.

Indeed. And Ned isn't claiming Darry sailed with anyone at all, let alone Viserys. Ned is asking the KG absolutely nothing. His statement is an informed barb at the three knights for neglecting their duties. Darry sailed to go protect the royal family, unlike these three, who are strangely and conspicuously out of place -- guarding a pile of rocks Ned wants to tear down in the Red Mountains of Dorne. ::flag wave::

Interesting idea, but is Dany old enough?

Unless asearchoficeandfire is off, those really are the only two references.

And the Sistermen seem to know/assume/insist that orange, pink, or green sails mean not only Lyseni, but Salladhor Saan.

Might also explain Sarlladhor's continued presence. So, I now need to do a re-read and see if there's any more to his presence. :::


HA! I was only looking for green sail--forgot to look for "Saan"--good catch!

Plus, Salladhor carries people to and from Dragonstone in their plot to "restore" the "true king." Though he's no idealist--tells the story of AA for the express purpose of warning Davos from the dangers of seeking that kind of light/heat. He works for gold. Though he does like Davos.

So, I'm now wondering if he might be an echo of the past. And if the Band of Nine is part of the hint, too. And echo of how the sea voyages were accomplished. Even the fleet--when Stannis' fleet is destroyed in the Blackwater, Saan was outside the bay, out of the fight, because they weren't true believers. markg171 's broken down the holes in the "destroyed fleet then flight" story. So, . . . might a Lyseni pirates have been involved? One outside the storm. Assuming someone had enough gold to pay him.


Multiple options are open, as you say. But given Saan's role, I'm thinking this option has legs. Or sails.

And, just as we've been getting hints that people know things about Jon Snows origin in surprising places (IE Edric Dayne), seems like there's a chance someone like Salladhor might have some information. He's a pirate and NOT an idealist. Seems like he'd transport anyone for the right amount of gold. But Martin brings him in multiple times in colorful detail. And he gets Davos out of tight spots and needed travel.

I'm thinking he either may have done something re: the crossings or know something about it.

And I am now wondering where he heard this AA story. . . an developed his opinions on it.