(f)Dany

We are lead to believe that Bran becomes more like Summer and less like himself, and I feel then it could be implied that Summer becomes more like Bran and less like himself. But that might not be correct, and the animal just grows in power and never loses something of them self. It could work like that for Beric and what possesses him as well.



There might very well be a connection between these warnings. I never quite understood how the mark on a tree could help Bran remember himself, though. Are the marks runes? Do they have some meaning that will cause Bran to remember himself?



This reminded me of my previous thoughts about Thistle's eyes. She gouged them out when she tried to fight off Varamyr's possession, yet I think we see her with two eyes glowing with blue light. So, do the eyes still function in her new state? Or do they not? And could that be applied to a headless wight? So far, we have not seen a headless wight, or at least I don't think so. We have seen a handless wight in Othor, and both the body and the hand still managed to function. A headless wight might work the same way. It depends on if we think the brain has to be involved or not. I am not sure that it does. But there is something connected to the cracking of bone marrow that will kill a wight...



That is interesting. I never really thought about the silver aspect of it before. I just goggled "silver cord" and the first hit was the idea of the silver cord being known as the sutramatma or "life thread", a life giving linkage from the higher self down to the physical body. Wow! So, that even more strongly hints to me that something special might be going to go on with Ned's remains, if ever they turn up. I do think there is some doubt shown in the text by Tyrion if they even matched Ned's head up to his body correctly, but I would almost bet they did. Anyway, this idea indicates the "silver cord" connects the physical body to the etheric body and onto the astral body and finally to the mental body. Could GRRM be playing with something like this concept? Or did he just pick a silver wire to connect Ned's skull to his body by chance? Silver does seem to be a metal associated with the Starks. If this had happened to a Lannister, would they have used a gold cord to reconnect the body?

I also looked at the passage from Ecclesiastes that you mentioned. It talks of both a silver cord and a golden bowl or fountain. I am not sure what to make of the golden bowl/fountain as a source, but the idea is that when the silver cord is snapped, then the soul is separated from the body. So, by reconnecting Ned's head to his body with silver, does that rejoin Ned's spirit in some way to his body? Is that why Ned's image did appear in the crypts for Bran and Rickon, but perhaps now it cannot, because be rejoining the head to the body, that has pulled Ned's spirit away from the crypts were it is meant to lie?

That's a really nice catch on the silver cord, danl .  

This idea of the golden bowl is quite interesting too. I seen an interpretation of the Ecclesiastes as the golden bowl being perhaps the brain membranes but also perhaps the stomach or also the golden fountain might be the heart and it's vessels that lead to and from it. If it's the skull that is the golden bowl, it might be connected to what is going on with the golden company dipping skulls in gold, such as with Bittersteel.

I do wonder if silver could be a hint at the metaphysical connections while the gold could be the connection to the life blood connections in the body? There is a possible tie to fountains appearing gold in Chroyane.

If the sun is tied to gold, does that hint that silver might be tied to the moon or the silver light of night, such as the stars. Stark's seem tied to night and slilver, Daynes seem tied to star's. Although I think it could be argued that Stark's are also tied to star, right in their very name. Stark/star!

There are a couple possible connections to golden bowls.

I find it interesting that the "golden bowl" is tied to becoming ice when the cold weather comes. Ice is definitely tied to the Stark's and the long night.


Just as small hint of the golden bowl, but it's part of Dany's marriage ceremony to Hizdahr. I am not sure what that could mean, if anything.

But I do find it interesting that all of these hints come in either Feast or Dance, as if perhaps GRRM's idea has grown and he is now trying to connect the golden bowl to a silver cord. The silver cord idea came early in the story, and is clearly connected to Ned's remains, although we don't really know GRRM's intent.




I am not sure that Cat's injuries really do hint at blood flowing, since her throat was cut so deeply it seems to have severed her voice box. I guess one could cut the larnyx and not cut a life sustaining vessel or passage, but the larynx lies right next to the trachea, which is the passage of air to the lungs, with blood vessels on either side. The blood vessels should have been severed as well, otherwise what killed Catelyn? Maybe all that needs to be connected is the spinal cord?

Beric's state is less clear, since we do get the idea of blood pouring from his body, although it's dark blood, hinting at lack of oxygenation, meaning perhaps that blood is not flowing from heart to lungs and back into the body. Perhaps it's all just stagnant since his first death? I really don't know what it could mean, but the wights seem to have dark blood as well. It doesn't flow, but I think that's because it's frozen in their veins. They have a funny smell, but they don't seem to rot, either.



Yes. I can easily see Cat, Robb and Grey Wind living in that mind, and it's quite possible there is something else inhabiting it as well. Something that truly animated it, and gives it some type of direction, as well. It could be crowded. Perhaps that is another reason that communication seems to come slowly from Stoneheart, a decision or battle is being waged internally about what will be said, and then the fact that the voice box is damaged leads another level to the slow communication, not just the difficulty in making word sounds.



It's not really sexual in the Disney version, but years ago I came across an Ann Rice version of Sleeping Beauty and it's entirely sexual. Entirely! Of course, Ann Rice is modern but she is a great researcher and has a lot of historical and mythological knowledge to base her writings on, and it reaches back to the perhaps the original version of Sleeping Beauty, when a king sneaks into the castle and rapes the sleeping princess. Apparently she doesn't wake from the assault, but does become pregnant with twins, a boy and girl child. She sleeps through this birth as well, and two fairies come along to help the babies feed from the sleeping princesses finger. This sucking on her finger removes the item that made her sleep, and she awakes, and starts breastfeeding her children. Then the king returns to claim his children and he makes the princess his mistress (because he is already married). And in this version, Maleficent is married to the king, and she wants revenge on her husband so she tries to cook the children and feed them to her husband. The cook substitutes lambs for the children, saving their lives. Then Maleficent tries to kidnap Sleeping Beauty and toss her into a bonfire. The king rescues his mistress and then tosses his wife into the bonfire, finds out his children are safe, and then he marries his mistress. Another interesting thing about this version of the tale is that Sleeping Beauty isn't asleep, she is dead. So the king rapes a dead women (hello necrofilia), and she can still bear him children. The author is Giambattista Basile and the heroine is named Talia.

Any way, I had never heard that version before, but I see several themes that pop up in GRRM's story, such as the feeding children to a parent (the Rat Cook), the theme of lambs and lamb bones that pops up in our story (the Red Wedding and Dany's visions), and potential rape of a women who bears twins to a man who is already married (maybe this has to do with Rhaegar or perhaps even Aerys). I think there could be hints that the corpse queen was dead but brought back to life and by magic bore children. Talia is a name that feels familiar but doesn't show up anywhere in the novels.

What an interesting little rabbit hole that was!!!



I think Mance is using a title that has been used historically to give himself more power, or at least the appearance of power, even if he thinks a title might not mean much. Honestly, titles mean power in this story, as well as to the medieval world. Even in more modern times, people with money marry into titles who are poor. So, titles do have power.

As to which side of the wall you stand on, it could change your perspective. But the wildlings still know that they are "beyond the wall" to the rest of Westeros.



Yes. Agreed.



Ahhh. I didn't look for silver string, only cord and wire. Mostly the silver strings do tie to the harp, and Rhaegar is most definitely tied to a harp. There are certainly hints of resurrection around Rhaegar, or at least potential that he never died. That silver connection could mean some thing metaphysical. How could it tie Ned to Rhaegar? I need to think on this a bit, since as far as we know, Ned and Rhaegar don't have any interactions in the story. They might have known each other, but we are not given that information.



Deposed title or not, I do think Ned does still think of them as prince or princess. At least he seems to think of Rhaenys and Aegon in this way, and Dany (although he never calls Dany a princess, but other's do in his presence and he doesn't refute that title). But would he manage to think of the children of Dany, or Rhaenys or Aegon if they ever bore any, as prince or princess, that I do not know.

And then we also have discussed how the Dornish of Rhoynar blood have managed to keep the title of "prince" and "princess" alive, for many generations and that doesn't seem to even be close to dying out.



Yes, which also ties to Stannis wanting to tie a title of Lord of Winterfell to someone he can control, and also gifting them with a "princess" for a wife. Stannis certainly seems to understand that power lies with titles. He knows you need more, such as money or an army, but he knows the importance of a title as well.

If Jojen means that Bran is supposed to pee on the tree in that exchange, then I completely missed that. Perhaps because I have never peed on a tree in my life, one of the odd little differences between females and males. But taking this into consideration, I looked back at the marking the tree idea in Bran's POV, there are times when Summer does mark a tree by peeing on it, it happens during wolf dreams in Clash, both before and after Bran has met the Reeds. It is early in Storm that Jojen cautions Bran to mark the tree. But Bran as Summer has marked the trees with urine before, just not in this passage in Storm I. Perhaps that is why I thought he meant a different type of mark. Because before this, Summer/Bran has been peeing on tree's.

If it is peeing that Jojen is talking about, how does the act help Bran remember who he is? I mean dogs pee on tree's all the time, and Summer might do that whether Bran is warging him or not. Men pee on tree's whether they are warging or not. I think the reason I was questioning it was a different kind of mark is because in Game, in a Jon chapter, there is discussion about how Benjen had marked tree's with blazes (like hiking symbols) when he was moving north, but those marks abruptly stopped. That kind of mark seems to be the communication of mankind, while peeing on a tree, which GRRM also describes as marking, seems more a thing an animal would do. An animal would come along later and perhaps recognize the scent of urine on a tree, but most people would not look to that or even notice it's an act of communication.

You are most likely correct, but I just don't see how that act by Bran as Summer is any different than Summer doing it himself. How does that help Bran remember who he is?



I agree it's creepy. And perhaps could be a bit comical if it wasn't so frightening that you can't stop this thing. It does give the impression that the hand is still connected to the idea of attack for some reason. Perhaps because the goal had already been placed into the tissues of the wight? Could that have something to do with why Beric is obsessed with bringing an end to the Mountain, because that goal had already been placed into his mind, his tissue? Even though I see Beric as different than the wights, it's hard not to see the ways they are similar as well. Do we know what happened to Beric's remains? I wonder if there is still some power in them?



It feels like it could be. I am pretty convinced that everyone taps into the same dream images, even if they use different vessels, and certainly highlights would be interpreted differently, depending on whom is having the dream.



Yes, winter skies have the best star's. So bright and crisp against the sky. It's my favorite time for watching the star's, but it's so cold, people don't usually spend much time outside. But Orion is my favorite constellation, and it shows up in the colder months, fall and winter and early spring, and Sirius, the dog star, also shines in the north in the winter. But that's for me, and not the Stark's.

In the story, I agree the star imagery ties easily to the Dayne's. And not so obviously to the Stark's. I did a little search, of Ned, Jon, Arya, Sansa, and Bran's POV's and highlighted the word star. There are some hints that might indicate they are associated to the star's. The most obvious one to me is that the direwolves are noted to howl to the star's, which hints at a level of communication that might be going on with the stories wargs. Still, I thought it was interesting that they howled at the star's and not the moon. Jon even notes at one time that Ghost's eyes seem to drink the stars.

Jon, Bran, Sansa and Arya note the star's in the sky; Jon and Bran pay attention to constellations, while Arya and Sansa note the star's as a whole, not in a pattern. But they all make note of the star's. Multiple references to the star's for the Stark children. While Arya is Blind Beth, she dreams nightly of star's and moonlight on snow. As far as I can tell, Ned does not. In Ned's POV, he notes the star's only once, that is in the godswood after he has confronted Cersei about her incest and treason. From Arya's POV, Ned once make note of star's on a wizard's hat, as if in mockery, but both he and Arya recognize that as a tie to one of Old Nan's stories. The only other star reference for Ned is when he picks Beric to represent him in hunting down the Mountain, but that probably ties star's to Beric more than Eddard. These are references to actual stars, except the one about the pointed hat.

I was mostly looking at actual star's, but the symbolism of star's is also quite prevalent the the Stark children. Arya and Sansa both note the star's in Beric's cloak, and Jon and Arya make note that torches burn like stars. Another call to a star, while not being an actual star, is Jon noting that Orell's eagle burned brighter than a star for a moment before it flew higher and higher into the sky. Is that a burning star that doesn't fall? Why didn't it fall? Arya see's the Titan of Braavos with eyes like star's and it's called the Star of Home, to the Braavosi sailors. Also, in Braavos, Arya notices one of the sealord's statues is holding a golden star in an upraised hand. I find the idea that it's golden to be interesting but I am not sure it means anything. The many faced god is noted to have as many faces as there are star's in the sky. Bran notes that stars are strangers in Bloodraven's cave, meaning they are missing, but perhaps that is another hint that ties star's to the Stranger, and I have thought before that the Stranger is tied to the Other's. Bran, Jon and Sansa all make note of the Symeon Star Eyes story.

About a hundred star references for the Stark's, but there are over three hundred star references in the entire text, so it certainly might not have that much to do with the actual Stark's. They notice the star's but don't have much imagery that directly ties them to the stars. Unless we find that Symeon Star Eyes was a Stark. Also, there is the direwolf connection to the stars. 



I don't think there is much for either Stoneheart or Beric that ties them to the black hands of the wights. GRRM seem's to use this as a hint that blood is no longer circulating, that it is pooling in the lower regions. I don't think either Beric or Stoneheart are ever noted to be cold or warm either. It certainly leaves it open to however we might like to imagine it.



I agree that it seems like the blood is still running, but at room temperature, blood will still ooze from a dead body, at least for some time. I know that sounds morbid but that's how it works. Clotting mechanisms slow after death, but depending on circumstances, they can stop working entirely in the body and blood can be fluid and not able to clot soon after death. I always thought that the reference to the wights having still, pooled blood that was still was a reference to it actually being too frozen to ooze. But that could be an error in my interpretation.



It's hard to say where the term originated but the term is far older than Bael. Although we don't really know where Bael falls in the timeline. But the first King Beyond the Wall was Joramun. And the title might have originated south of the wall, but if Joramun was also familiar with how people above and below the wall viewed kingship, the title could have originated with him, and it does seem like he was from north of the wall. But that is also vague. Joramun goes back to the time of the Night King.



I don't get the idea of friendship between Ned and Rhaegar, but they certainly might have known each other. Ned seems to have no regret for Rhaegar's death, yet he seems to have regret for Ser Arthur Dayne's death (according to Bran) and also to the men who rode with him to the tower of joy. I think most of Ned's sorrow surrounding Rhaegar is related to the murder of his children. And Ned might be upset about the murder of any children, no matter who there parents are, as seems to be the case for Jaime and Cersei's children.



Oh, I agree he is cynical in relation to the religion that she promotes, but I do think he believes she has power. He seems to believe it in the blood and leech magic she uses that hints that she (or her god) were responsible for the deaths of Robb, Balon and Joffrey, although he seems to be blind to a similar blood magic killing Renly. He also claims to have seen images in the flames, which seems to have made him a believer in some way. I would guess that Stannis is pretty cynical in general, and that this would translate to any organized religion, be it the Red God or the Seven or even the Old Gods of the North.

This darn time change has screwed me up, so I have been up quite early for several mornings, and have been blessed with the bright moon as well as the bright stars. This is the time of year for Orion and Sirius in Canis Major, and several of the planets are bright in the night sky, as well. Humidity can cause a haze, as well as the lights of towns, which dim how many stars you can see. I live in a small town, but even it has enough lights to dim the stars, and I miss living out in the country for those brilliant night skies. 



I agree the star's do show up in regards to organized religions in several ways. Arya notes that the members of the Cult of Starry Wisdom sing to the evening stars, which always reminds me of the Starry Sept in Old Town, which is certainly a Faith of the Seven/Andal religion. The star as a symbol is absolutely tied the the Faith of the Seven. I suppose that the star's are so prevalent in the world that most religions would encompass them in some way. Even Melisandre is thankful and prays to the stars in the night sky as being part of R'hller's power. Mel comments, "the stars that guard us in the dark of night", and while I suppose it's a leap, but if you replace star with Stark, then that line has a greatly altered meaning. And yet while Mel seems to fear the Other's and the dark, they seem completely tied to the night and their star blue eyes. It's all twisted up together and people seem to take whatever meaning they want from it.



Well, I think we have debated plenty about actions of Ned's that might have caused his Stark forefather's to glare at him while their stone wolves growl as he walks by. Has he in some way damaged an important connection? Yet, according to both Bran and Rickon's dreams, his spirit was called to the crypts on his death, as if to take his place with his Stark forefathers.

The star's are not completely absent in Ned's storyline, but they are rare. He gazes on the evening star's that come out, after he and Cersei talk in the godswood. Which reminds me of his talk with Catelyn, after they have sex after Robert's welcoming feast, when she thinks he is gazing out the window and the moon, or perhaps the stars. Maybe Ned does note the star's more than we think. And he does, for what seems like an unexplainable reason, chose Beric Dondarrion and his starry cloak, to lead his expedition to capture the Mountain. So, perhaps Ned focuses on the star's more than we think. But besides those incidents, there isn't much. And his sort of derisive comment about wizards wearing pointed hats with star's to Arya. It ties to an Old Nan story, but it does hint that star's might be associated with great knowledge or magic, such as a wizard might have.



This might very well explain how GRRM thinks of the subject, but in reality, a dead body will still drain blood, to some extent. That is what happens when people are embalmed, although sometimes a pump is used to speed the process. It seems to me that something magic is going on with the wights, because they don't rot. Sometimes it's debatable what the temperature is where these bodies are found or stored, and a below freezing temp might help slow the rotting or bleeding. But one of those bodies that was found by Jon and Co had his neck savagely cut with an axe. That type of injury should bleed out. Just as Catelyn's cut throat should bleed out. Yet both are revived, though probably in different ways. But it makes me think that blood isn't a key aspect of any type of resurrection.

Beric's blood being dark has always made me question if he breaths or not, since it's the lungs that function to replace dark, used blood with new, fresh,(brighter and red) blood, at least the oxygen that is carried on the hemoglobin molecule. I don't want to be to creepily detailed about it, but that is how pathophysiology of the body works. Dark blood to me, indicates that a body is not circulating well-oxygenated blood. I have seen this in code situation, or when people have a low oxygen saturation.  I agree his blood still is liquid enough to spill from his body with an injury, but I question if it actually is flowing before the injuries, or if it's just stagnant in his vessels?

But Jon does note that the blood of Jafer Flowers is like dust in his veins. But blood doesn't really turn to dust, or at least not in the time frame we are working with. Magic is at work with these bodies. They don't rot when they should, and they have blue eyes, and they wake up and kill people. So, perhaps real world body rotting doesn't apply at all, which doesn't leave us much to help distinguish what is going on with these bodies.

Are we ever told what color Beric or Stoneheart's eyes are? I think there is one place were it appears that UnCat's eyes are red, but it could be implied that is a reflection of torch light. I don't think Beric's eye color is ever addressed, before or after his multiple deaths. Blue eyes seems to be a tell with the wights, but with our other undead or resurrected, it's less clear.



I don't know what Joramun's goal was. He seems to be noted for helping stop the Night's King, but that doesn't tell us whether he crossed the wall, or if he tried to march further south. I don't know if any of the wildling armies have ever reached Winterfell, but on several occasions, the Lords of Winterfell have organized a war party to stop the wildlings coming south. With Gendel and Gorne and with Raymund Redbeard, the wildling armies were stopped by forces of the north before they could reach Winterfell, if that was ever their goal. Once they were stopped by a battle at Long Lake and I am not sure what happened to the wildlings who had marched south. When Gorne was defeated by the son of the Lord of Winterfell, Gendel took his people back north through a tunnel but rumor is they were lost in the tunnel's and never emerged. I guess that story is vague to the location of the battle, so perhaps it was close to or at Winterfell?

As to Joramun raising giants with the Horn of Winter, I don't really know what that all means. I don't think he could have brought the wall down, because it's still standing. Although the wall of our current storyline might be far different than the wall at the time of the Night King. (It does have hints of the story of Jericho in the bible, with the walls of the city falling after people blew trumpets for seven days). I have even wondered if the wall existed at that time, although some reports say this had to have happened after the wall was built. And if Joramun was King Beyond the Wall but didn't use that title to raise an army to march south, then perhaps that title doesn't always have to do with a great invading force? Maybe there have been many more Kings Beyond the Wall but we only know of the ones who wanted to get south of the wall?

As for crossing the wall, Gendel and Gorne went underneath the wall, the Horned Lord used "magic" to pass the wall (whatever that means), if Joramun was helping fight the Night's King, then he might have been allowed through the wall by one of the tunnel's at the castle, but we are certainly not told that, or even if this battle was south or north of the wall. I don't think we are told how Bael the Bard's forces crossed the wall, but Raymun Redbeard did have his people cross the wall with ladders, which must have taken some time, and his brother is said to have fled back north of the wall after the defeat at Long Lake, so perhaps he used the same ladders to cross? There could also be a water route, but I don't know if the wildlings have very good boats to be able to move a large number of forces. But I guess if people can slowly climb the wall on ladders, then they can come a dozen at a time by a boat, as well.

Another thing about any of these groups who did cross the wall and move south, we have no idea how far south they actually intended to go. I think Show Mance talks about going south as far as Dorne, but I don't think that is addressed in the books. I will have to do some looking into that. Truly, I think it's vague to know what the Other's are wishing with the wildlings. Do they want to push them south of the wall, or do they want to kill them all, make a great wight army, and march south themselves. That is what the show gives us, but I don't know if that's the story GRRM will give us with the books.

We know that Ned talked to Catelyn as if he would have to gather an army and "deal" with Mance Rayder, but we have discussed the vagueness of what that could really mean. Did Ned plan to march north of the wall? Did he expect that Mance would push south of the wall and then Ned's forces could defeat the wildlings at some place south of the wall. Could Ned have really wanted to take these defeated wildlings and settle them in the north, as vassals to himself?

I don't know that Winterfell was ever the goal of any of the wildling armies, although it makes sense to think that if they could defeat Winterfell, then an organized response to defeat the wildlings would be stunted or stopped. Or the wildlings might have thought to take Winterfell and hide behinds it's walls, but again, that is speculation, and I don't think the text gives us anything much to work with in regards to this. Interesting debate, though! 

Melisandre seems to adopt any type of light to the power of R'hller, which does make sense in some way. Even it the light of the star's isn't fire related, which is a large part of R'hller's worship, the star light is a reflection of the sun's light. As is the moon. It's a cool light, it doesn't give us heat, but it still gives us lumination, which does shelter us from complete darkness. It reminds me again of those archetypes that the Greek's used to name their primordial gods. Nyx was Night and Erebus was Darkness. The two are connected but not the same. As is Hemera as Day and Eather as Light. Similar but not the same, as their can be Light in the Night, or Darkness in the Day, or even how Day and Night bleed into each other at dusk and dawn. I really enjoy how the Greek's defined the world around the functions of the primordial gods. I think GRRM probably relays some of that line of thought into his story.



Maybe some day we will finally stumble across the right information, but for now, I don't know that we have been given enough for theory, only for speculation.



I don't about solid, but as the body cools, that also alters the consistency of the blood. But for it to be solid, or even dust, I would imagine it would take specific conditions to do so. Eventually, dehydration would occur to some extent, as the body isn't being replenished with hydration. That would also cause a change. I might need to look into that a bit. Rigor mortis is also interesting, and might be similar to how clotting mechanism's work, since rigor mortis sets in and causes stiffening, but after a certain amount of time, that resolves and the body becomes quite flexible again. Livor mortis is more related to what GRRM describes as the "black hands" of the wights, with blood pooling in dependent areas of the body, causing a purplish or dark red coloration to these areas. Sometimes you see that start before death (or even when people are really cold), as the blood is already starting to pool behind valves as circulation decreases. This is called mottling. I have never seen black, but GRRM might be using that color to describe the purple or red tones of livor mortis. If it's truly black, then perhaps it is because something different is going on with these bodies.



Yes, blood that isn't well oxygenation is darker in color. These covid people have quite dark blood. But venous blood will always appear darker than arterial blood. As to his complexion, it would probably be pale in some places, and darker in dependent area's of the body, places that would probably be covered by clothing, except the hands. Most bodies become extremely pale, or even yellowish (sallow) in appearance, depending on overall complexion. I don't think Beric's is ever described in any specific ways that would help us figure this out.

As to dehydration, in my personal experience, it doesn't cause blood to become darker as long as your cardiac system is still performing properly, but if you are so ill that your cardiac system is impaired (which severe dehydration could cause), than could cause blood to appear darker, since your cardiac system is connected to your pulmonary system, which exchanges poorly oxygenated for well oxygenated blood.



Well, they don't rot or smell, which are things you should see in bodies that have been dead for more than a couple days. But the guess is that they have been dead for more than a couple days, so this does hint that something other than normal is associated with Othor and Jafer. Also, the question raised about their previous eye color. They both seem to have blue eyes now, but perhaps they did before, too?



I never interpreted red as in "blood shot" but it does make sense. I had thought it was indication of the glow of the torches. Some eyes glow red in the light, and some eyes glow back greenish in reflection to light. We see that red eye/green eye phenomena in pictures! However, red eyes in albino's are a result of lack of pigment in the eyes, but albino's don't always have classic red eyes, although the eyes might appear red if light is shined into the pupil. Many albino's in the world have purplish or pale brown eyes. I debated quite a long time ago that the Targaryen's actually carried an albinism type of gene, leading to their pale hair and purple eyes. It doesn't explain their complexions, which are not pale, and they don't seem to be affected or sensitive to the sunlight. But there are different types of albinism, and different degrees. However, if they did carry some variety of albino gene, then their interbreeding would certainly highlight it.



I don't remember this specifically about Joramun, but that doesn't mean its not in the text some where. The wiki doesn't mention it, but the wiki is certainly not perfect. If I have time later, I will try to research this a bit.



I agree that "bringing the wall down" is probably more a metaphor than something that physically happened. The power of the wall could be in magic, or in the strength of the men guarding it. Both make sense to me.



The story does say "the wall" but if all stories can be distorted or altered over the years, then this detail could as well. It could have been any castle wall he spied her from, not the actual 600 foot tall ice wall. I find it vague, like most of GRRM's writing.



I agree that it make sense that there has to be some reason driving them all to join under one banner. In the current storyline, it's the fear of the Other's and their army of wights, and the need to get south of the wall. They seem to think the wall will stop the Other's, and perhaps this is what happened every time the wildlings joined into a great, large army.



Well, we are not give a time frame, just that the Commander of the Night's Watch missed this movement of men and is forever known as "Sleepy Jack", implying to me that he might have not been paying attention for awhile. When Jon and crew climb the wall on ladders, I don't think the time it takes to climb the rope ladders is ever established, but it's midnight before they reach the top. But that also includes the initial people who scaled the wall, not just the people on the ladders, which should have been quicker and easier those who scaled the wall. I think if you had enough ladders and a couple days, you could get a thousand warriors across. If you had a week, you could get several thousand. I am just basing that information on what we are told about Raymun Redbeard. I am not sure of how big the force was that climbed the wall under Styr's command, but they felt like it was enough to take on Castle Black from the south, so I would guess a hundred warriors, but probably more.




I agree. And GRRM doesn't seem to write villains like that. Not much in his world is black and white, good and evil. I expect the show got that wrong. Or didn't want to dive into the complicated storyline that would be involved. The show got simpler the longer in lasted.



I agree. It might also be hard to get a group of warriors to want to go north of the wall, since there seems to be a lot of fear tied to being north of the wall. I think Will tells us he was terrified his first couple of times, so there is no reason to think an army from the north would feel any better about it, or could be enticed to do it. 



Well, it could be several things, as you mention. There is some hinting that the wildlings and the Stark's share blood, and so an ancestral connection makes sense. Also, since Winterfell is large and built like a giant radiator, it would be a good place to survive a winter. I am sure that is known both north and south of the wall. But I agree, the text is vague about the goal of the wildling armies that have marched south of the wall.

Well, shadow's are a thing of light. If there were no light, there would be no shadow, whether the light comes from the sun or a fire, so that does make sense to me. And Melisandre's magic is worked in the shadow's she gives birth to. And there are times when Jon notes that the fire casts giant shadows of Mel and Stannis on the wall, but there are also times when Davos notices that the fire casts shadows of something else onto Mel and Stannis. I am not sure what that could actually mean, but it seems like a potential distinction. Victarion points out if Moqorro's shadow falls on his crew members, they cuss and spit!!! A strong reaction.

What is interesting to me is that the Other's are also referred to as shadow's. White shadows. Ghost is a white shadow too. And the Kingsguard! And there are grey wraith/shadow's in Ned's fever dream. Shadow's are everywhere in the story. So, if as Mel claims, that R'hllor is the God of Fire AND Shadow, she should not fear these shadow's. But it seems like we are given the impression that the Others/White Walker's are a part of the Great Other, a thing that Melisandre fears will destroy all life on Planetos.



I agree that the wights seem to defy some normal aspects of how the body should decay. But does the cold and winter weather cause some of that as well? I think it's left too vague for us to figure out.



I agree that the eyes of the wights change to blue, which is part of their tell. The wildlings knew, but Jon and Co on finding those bodies didn't know, or the Night's Watch once knew but had forgotten.

Coldhands eyes are once described as black.


I think this implies that both Coldhands and the Raven have black eyes. They are the "four black eyes" from the quote. But we have seen enough of Coldhands to know that even if he is in some ways a wight, in some ways he is not, so a partial transformation is not really surprising. Coldhands might be more like Beric could have been if Beric had never given the kiss of life to Cat. Only we are told that Coldhands doesn't like fire, or perhaps even fears it, while Beric used fire on his sword to help fight his enemies. So, they are not quite alike, either. Bran does note that Coldhands doesn't breath, or at least if he exhales, it doesn't fog his face covered. That is one of the reasons I have wondered if Beric, or even Stoneheart, actually breaths either.





In some places in our own world, human albino's are cast from the community or are even put to death. There is a fear about them. Superstitions. Ostracizing them from communities. Murder and even rape, since there is a thought in some parts of Africa that sex with an albino women while cure HIV, or that bodies parts of albino's are magical. (These stories seem to come out of Tanzania).

I can't really find a place in our world where albinism is celebrated or that people with it are revered, but it's certainly tolerated in many places of the world. And there are certainly health implications.

I don't know if the Targaryen's are albino's, but the silver hair and the violet eyes catch my attention. Albinism is a recessive gene, so it would certainly be some thing that inner breeding would highlight. And I am not thinking albinism like we have in our world exactly, but a magical type of variety that GRRM has dreamed up.



These two images, if I did this correctly, are kind of what I am thinking about. Albinism that might look quite a bit like a Targaryen!




That above quote does seem to tie Joramun with either battling the wall or the Stark's. I wonder if this is a case of the story being different, depending on what side of the wall the story is told on? Much like the Bael the Bard story, although we get the impression that what Jon knows of the Bael Tale does not involve stealing a Stark maid and having a child with her, only that Bael was a king of the wildlings that was defeated. So, perhaps Joramun never challenged the wall or fought the Stark's?



Yes, it's quite vague. I have debated about this for years, heavy debate several years ago, trying to figure out just how long ago the Other's started to rise, and what might have caused it. Was it Ned killing the Sword of the Morning (or whatever happened there) or was it Aerys killing the Lord of Winterfell and his heir? Or was it something that happened at Harrenhal? Or Before or After? I just don't think we have enough information to tie it to one good answer, so we just have much speculation and many possible timelines.



Well, Craster seems to recognize Jon as a Stark. And Mance does, but Mance was also at Winterfell. But I don't know if much of anyone else would recognize Jon by his looks. Ygritte seems to like the way Jon looks but it's her first look at Ghost that get's a reaction, not her first look at Jon Snow.

I am not sure what we are told about the Night's king's children. Did he have any daughters? It's said he sacrificed to the Other's, and I have assumed that meant he was giving his sons to them in a very Craster-like way, but I can't actually find that detail. I will have to look a bit more into it, but work has been killing my free time. I have speculated that he was giving his son's to the Other's but perhaps he was set to start having children with his own daughters, just like Craster. If so, if he had a daughter who was at the age of child bearing, the age of 12 or 13, then perhaps that is what made both the wildlings and the people of the North move against him. But then again, Craster's incest is tolerated north of the wall, although many people don't seem to like or support it.

I have recently started to wonder if the story of the Night's king and his Corpse Bride is in some way tied to the story of Hugor of the Hill, the Andal who was given a wife with eyes like blue pools who the Mother made fertile and she gave Hugor 44 children. Why would a goddess need to make a woman fertile? Perhaps because she was dead and revived, tying her to being a corpse, or because she was a different race and needed something special to make her be able to have children with a human. Something about those two stories seems to be connected in some way, although this story of Hugor and his bride was said to have happened in Andelos, so in Essos, long before the Andal's moved into Westeros.

And I might be completely wrong about any kind of connection, too!

I have also speculated that the Night's King and his Corpse/Night's Queen have children like Mel and Stannis do, some type of powerful shadow that can be controlled. I think there is information in the text that could tie to that idea, as well. This might also be more wild and incorrect tinfoil!

The highlighted line is true. But they also can't exist without light, so perhaps this has to be a symbiotic relationship of some sort, between the light and shadow, the day and night, the dark and bright. In a way, in reminds me of how I think all the magic comes from one source, and the use of it is what differs. And in Greek primordial mythos, the night and day, the light and dark, all came from the same source of chaos.



Melisandre might turn out to be a great outlier in her religion, a bit of a rogue. It will be interesting if that turns out to be the case. We tend to believe her version because it's really the first version of R'hller that we are introduced to. But...

And you are correct when you point out that the same religion can be practiced in very different manners, and we might see that with the religion of the Red God. It might be as different as people who follow the old gods, who might have a different practice, depending on what area or castle they call home.



I can find three times when the kingsguard are called white shadow's in real time. I don't actually think Ned ever refers to them that way in his dreams. In that dream, he notes their "white cloaks" and his own companions are the only shadows of his dreams, he calls them "grey wraiths on horses made of mist". No mention of the kingsguard having horses or being mounted, and he actually talks about the kingsguard as "and these were no shadows", with faces burning clear in his memory. Ned does refer to "shadows" in the crypts, and but I can't decide if that's a trick of the light, because those men are dead, or if it's something else.

As to the kingsguard:


The riot in King's Landing after Myrcella is sent to Dorne.


During the Battle of the Blackwater.


Ser Barristan is Dany's "white shadow".

Twice from Tryion's POV and once from Dany's, and I suppose one could argue that they see the world perhaps with a different "filter" of knowledge or dreams than other's people.

Ghost is referred to as a "white shadow" three times, once from Tyrion's POV, twice from Jon's. Jon also knows the white walkers or Other's are referred to as white shadow's, but he doesn't seem to make any potential connection between them and Ghost. And maybe there isn't any, but it's possible there is a strong connection.

Sometimes, I think GRRM must hate A Search of Ice and Fire and all the potential hints and connections in has revealed to his readers.

I do think there is potential for Ghost not to be real, or that he might have died at birth and be some how reborn. It's also possible that Ghost is the first and foremost protector in Jon's Snow's arsenal, part of his "kingsguard" if he ever become a king, which I do think there is potential for.



George uses "black" for eye color quite a bit in his story. Crows and ravens certainly have black eyes, including the white raven's from the Citadel. Several of our Greyjoy's have black eyes, as well as the majority of the Dothraki, including Drogo. Alliser Thorne and Bronn and Mirri Maz Duur, Yoren, and Coldhands (as we already discussed) are a few I can think of. There is even reference to Melisandre thinking the the Great Other has black eyes, which is interesting to me when I just noticed that, because I tend to think of the Great Other has being like the Other's, so I would expect him to have ice blue eyes.


Now that I am thinking about it, if the Great Other has black eyes, and we know that Coldhands is something a bit different than a living creature or a wight AND he has black eyes, perhaps he IS the Great Other?

I have also really never noticed before that Davos refers to  the "god of darkness" as a deity, and one that he seems connected to, as a smuggler who uses darkness as his weapon. That Davos is a heck of an interesting character!!!



I agree that Beric does look ghastly. That is a good catch on him potentially not breathing, since he is never noted to breathe heavily or gasp in any sort of way during battle, which might hint at functioning lungs. I am beginning to think of Beric as more like Coldhands than I did before. Some kind of hybrid between the living and the dead, but not exactly like the wights, either.



Well, I have explored that Dany's eyes are actually a shade of blue that can be enhanced to look like violet. This might be a Targaryen/Valyrian thing, but I also wonder about a potential connection to potential Durandon/Baratheon lineage. Tin foil, I know!



I think I need to explore this trope of Warrior/Poet a bit more. In ways, it reminds me of Elric of Melnibone, (who I need to get back too) and also Beowulf and even stories of Odin. How that might apply to Bael the Bard versus Mance Rayder or even Rhaegar, I really need to think about.



Yes, we don't know much. I admit I am allowing myself to be lead by implication in the story, and I know that can be a dangerous misstep.



That story of Hugor of the Hill is only recently on my radar, and I was paying attention to it in regards to his crown, a crown of star's that was brought down from the heavens, and how that connects to the Faith and their "stars". But Hugor's bride then caught my attention, and I wondered why would his bride have any need to be made fertile. Most females are born with the ability to be fertile, and time activates that ability. I might be taking large leaps and jumps that are leading me in the wrong direction. But her eyes were blue, and so were the Corpse Queen/Night's Queen. It also makes me wonder about Melisandre and fertility. She is fertile in a sense, but she only gives birth to black shadows, and that fertility is probably r/t magic powers that she earned or was granted. I certainly have explored the idea that the Night's Queen gave birth only to white shadow's with her king, and those are the white walkers that we see today.

As to Hugor's bride, it's said she had 44 son's for Hugor, and while that indicates more than the average woman, what if she always had twins or triplets or even quad's, which would be unusual for a human, but perhaps not a magic shadow womb. Or perhaps she really just had long life and multiple, successful pregnancies. Some of the people that we hear of from the Age of Hero's live more quite long life spans, such as Garth Greenhand, who also had multiple children, although it's implied he has these my several different women.

I think there are hints about breeding between humans and the CotF. How many babies do CotF have at one time? I don't think we are ever told.



I need to rewatch these. It's been a while and there is so much detail that it's easy to see different aspects with each viewing.

Discussions with you always lead me to interesting thoughts and idea's.