Isn't Ashara's sister/possible child/possible niece also in the pool here? I remember her being discussed as a possible outcrossing of (pick any)Stark or Aerys with Ashara, and/or a possible Lya + Aurthur.
She could be. We just have no idea how old she actually is. She seems to have been younger than 16 in AGOT as she still hadn't married Beric despite having been betrothed to him for 4 years by that point. But we never actually hear anybody say "Allyria is 17 years old" or "Allyria was born 16 years ago". So we can't figure out how old she is other than it could be odd if she was older than 16 in AGOT and still hadn't married Beric Dondarrion.
The other thing of course too is that she suffers the same problem of Desmera Redwyne IMO. She's just not mentioned enough to probably be someone important.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
How did this get bumped? Not that I mind, but....weird.
Also embarrassing, as I never came back to finish this theory.
There's a mod control to bump a thread. Someone must've wanted to see you on the front page. Maybe I'll go shamelessly try it on my post that I never go back and finish, either.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
At least you got this one started. Well, I did get mine started in another time and place, but that's a different story. B-|
Oh yeah, I started to have a conversation with myself in that thread.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
It's Christmas Eve and nothing's going on yet except the kids arguing over Angry Birds, and I'm bored, so I found something to add to this topic.
Much ado has been made over the "Promise Me", as we know. One passage in particular has been used over and over to tie Rhaegar and Lyanna and sweet 8 pound 6 ounce newborn infant Jon all together in a TOJ bow:
"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times.Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses."
While digging into a related thought, I returned to the famous AGOT 64 chapter, the MMD tent ceremony....and I noticed something.
First, let's set this up with something I've already mentioned.
Mirri Maz Duur smiled. "Only a maegi can save your rider now, Silver Lady."
"Is there no other way?"
"No other."
Khal Drogo gave a shuddering gasp.
"Do it," Dany blurted. She must not be afraid; she was the blood of the dragon. "Save him."
"There is a price," the godswife warned her.
"You'll have gold, horses, whatever you like."
"It is not a matter of gold or horses. This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life."
"Death?" Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. "My death?" She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.
"No," Mirri Maz Duur promised. "Not your death, Khaleesi." ... Mirri Maz Duur chanted words in a tongue that Dany did not know, and a knife appeared in her hand. Dany never saw where it came from. It looked old; hammered red bronze, leaf-shaped, its blade covered with ancient glyphs. The maegi drew it across the stallion's throat, under the noble head, and the horse screamed and shuddered as the blood poured out of him in a red rush. He would have collapsed, but the men of her khas held him up. "Strength of the mount, go into the rider," Mirri sang as horse blood swirled into the waters of Drogo's bath. "Strength of the beast, go into the man."
Jhogo looked terrified as he struggled with the stallion's weight, afraid to touch the dead flesh, yet afraid to let go as well. Only a horse, Dany thought. If she could buy Drogo's life with the death of a horse, she would pay a thousand times over.
Now obviously we know that Rhaego is the sacrificial lamb in this scenario - but it's important to keep in mind that Dany does not know this going in. She briefly thinks she will have to sacrifice her own life for the magic to work, and is relieved that she doesn't, that the sacrifice will be the horse.
Next up in the chapter, there's this:
When they let the stallion fall, the bath was a dark red, and nothing showed of Drogo but his face. Mirri Maz Duur had no use for the carcass. "Burn it," Dany told them. It was what they did, she knew. When a man died, his mount was killed and placed beneath him on the funeral pyre, to carry him to the night lands. The men of her khas dragged the carcass from the tent. The blood had gone everywhere. Even the sandsilk walls were spotted with red, and the rugs underfoot were black and wet.
I mentioned in the OP that there's a parallel between the blood-spattered walls of the tent and the bloodied stones of the tower that Ned pulled down at TOJ. What I didn't consider at the time was the smell. The overpowering smell of blood.
Now, the next passage:
Braziers were lit. Mirri Maz Duur tossed a red powder onto the coals. It gave the smoke a spicy scent, a pleasant enough smell, yet Eroeh fled sobbing, and Dany was filled with fear.
The blood maegi uses a powder in her ceremony. The powder smells spicy, which is in opposition to 'sweet'.
Dany begs MMD to save the life of her husband inside a tent that smells of blood and spices.
She sent her handmaids away. "Go with them, Silver Lady," Mirri Maz Duur told her.
"I will stay," Dany said. "The man took me under the stars and gave life to the child inside me. I will not leave him."
"You must. Once I begin to sing, no one must enter this tent. My song will wake powers old and dark. The dead will dance here this night. No living man must look on them."
Dany bowed her head, helpless. "No one will enter." She bent over the tub, over Drogo in his bath of blood, and kissed him lightly on the brow. 1 "Bring him back to me,"2 she whispered3 to Mirri Maz Duur before she fled.4
He could hear her still at times. Promise me2, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper,3 but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his 1 as she gave up her hold on life,4 the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.
While I still want to mull a bit more on the inversion, I'm getting more and more comfortable with the idea that Lyanna died in a blood magic ceremony.
While I still want to mull a bit more on the inversion, I'm getting more and more comfortable with the idea that Lyanna died in a blood magic ceremony.
Possible.
But I'm wondering if the question isn't just whether or not the tent and the tower parallel each other, but if what FOLLOWED them parallels.
As bad as the tent was for Dany, the important/lifechanging birth wasn't just the dead baby. It was Dany--the dragon with three heads. The tragedy of the tent (sounds like a camping disaster) drove the real birth--the true Stallion that Mounts the World, the Dragon with Three Heads.
If so, if the tragedy at the tent (dancing flames and dead baby) and the misery at the tower (blue-eyed death and blood streaked sky) are lead ins to what is born AFTERWARDS, who/what is born after the tower fight? Dany's the Dragon with Three Heads. The Stallion that Mounts the World only AFTER the one she thought was the Stallion dies.
So, if Jon is born after the tower fight, who is he being born AS? And how did the tower fight potentially help bring about his future role?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
The son of the wolf and the Last Hero, brother of the Stark in Winterfell, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Jon is the Night's King, and his mother's joy, with black hands and eyes as blue as death Seriously though SlyWren, I just had a thought. What if we are looking at the wrong tower? What if the thing we should be looking at is the base of the tower where Jon gets stabbed? Inside is who? Val, right? With a child who is not her own. How many guards? How many attack Jon using treachery? Is that how Howland saved Ned: is "For the Watch" where "Now it begins"? Or am I over-wearing my tinfoil??
While I still want to mull a bit more on the inversion, I'm getting more and more comfortable with the idea that Lyanna died in a blood magic ceremony.
Possible.
But I'm wondering if the question isn't just whether or not the tent and the tower parallel each other, but if what FOLLOWED them parallels.
As bad as the tent was for Dany, the important/lifechanging birth wasn't just the dead baby. It was Dany--the dragon with three heads. The tragedy of the tent (sounds like a camping disaster) drove the real birth--the true Stallion that Mounts the World, the Dragon with Three Heads.
If so, if the tragedy at the tent (dancing flames and dead baby) and the misery at the tower (blue-eyed death and blood streaked sky) are lead ins to what is born AFTERWARDS, who/what is born after the tower fight? Dany's the Dragon with Three Heads. The Stallion that Mounts the World only AFTER the one she thought was the Stallion dies.
So, if Jon is born after the tower fight, who is he being born AS? And how did the tower fight potentially help bring about his future role?
Hmm. Well the Sword of the morning, of course!
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
The son of the wolf and the Last Hero, brother of the Stark in Winterfell, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Jon is the Night's King, and his mother's joy, with black hands and eyes as blue as death
What I actually meant was--how are the two "births" in the aftermaths of the tower and tent related?
Because that part of the OP I buy.
If Dany is the true hero, we could go with the inversion idea and say that Jon is the villain. And vice versa.
Dany begins the pyre at nightfall. Jon sees the Sword of the Morning at dawn--but we don't know time of day for his brith.
Tent leads to dragons under a red sword (comet). Tower leads to a "knight" with a white sword?
My point--are these things opposed? Parts of a whole? Inverted?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Seriously though SlyWren, I just had a thought. What if we are looking at the wrong tower? What if the thing we should be looking at is the base of the tower where Jon gets stabbed? Inside is who? Val, right? With a child who is not her own.
I've wondered about that tower, too. But had not thought of Val's being in it. That's . . . interesting. And seems like it's the precursor to Jon's being "reborn." Or awakened.
Is that how Howland saved Ned: is "For the Watch" where "Now it begins"? Or am I over-wearing my tinfoil??
Hmmm. I do buy that Howland might have killed Arthur with treachery.
Are you comparing the Night's Watch oath's being "reinterpreted" by Jon to brining about his fall with Arthur (and the other two) continuing their KG oath--in a different way--despite all being lost--leading to Arthur's fall?
Kinda like the three blood riders?
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Well I mean actually if you want to get into it it would probably be two towers and two tents, seeing as while Val is guarding Monster, everybody thinks she's actually guarding Aemon, who was born in Mance's tent.
And I know you like the idea that Arthur's Jon's dad, and Jon guarded that tent with Longclaw in hand. Hell he even drew it off his shoulder just like Arthur did at the TOJ.
“If you’re lying to me again, you won’t be leaving here alive,” Mance warned. His guards brought him his horse and armor. Elsewhere around the camp, Jon saw people running at cross purposes, some men forming up as if to storm the Wall while others slipped into the woods, women driving dog carts east, mammoths wandering west. He reached back over his shoulder and drew Longclaw just as a thin line of rangers emerged from the fringes of the wood three hundred yards away. They wore black mail, black halfhelms, and black cloaks. Half-armored, Mance drew his sword. “You knew nothing of this, did you?” he said to Jon, coldly.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Ugh, just lost my reply. Here goes again, in parts this time. So, Hardhome Tower vs Tower of Joy. 3 Kingsguard vs Jon, Rory, and Horse. On the way to the tower, Jon thinks," I should have gone to Selyse first. She has the right to know her lord is dead." vs. Ned going to Dorne. Thinking of Ashara? Bowen Marsh is Ned. He has a bunch of guys with him...I'll edit later. Jon is distracted by Ser Patrek's cloak, which is White and Silver, with Blue stars (of death). He notices the red blood spraying like daisy petals. Is Arthur distracted by Lyanna? That's all I have for now. Help yourself to my info dump, or wrap it in tinfoil
Well I mean actually if you want to get into it it would probably be two towers and two tents, seeing as while Val is guarding Monster, everybody thinks she's actually guarding Aemon, who was born in Mance's tent.
And I know you like the idea that Arthur's Jon's dad, and Jon guarded that tent with Longclaw in hand. Hell he even drew it off his shoulder just like Arthur did at the TOJ.
“If you’re lying to me again, you won’t be leaving here alive,” Mance warned. His guards brought him his horse and armor. Elsewhere around the camp, Jon saw people running at cross purposes, some men forming up as if to storm the Wall while others slipped into the woods, women driving dog carts east, mammoths wandering west. He reached back over his shoulder and drew Longclaw just as a thin line of rangers emerged from the fringes of the wood three hundred yards away. They wore black mail, black halfhelms, and black cloaks. Half-armored, Mance drew his sword. “You knew nothing of this, did you?” he said to Jon, coldly.
Yes, you're right, two tents and two towers. And One Ring...no, sorry, wrong story. :eek: But I think they might all be part of SlyWren 's fractured theory. Dead babies, dead mothers;
Live switched babies?;
three outriders, 3 Kingsguard, 3 with Jon at the Wall tower, Jon & __________ when Stannis arrives.
women of power in attendance at births: Mirri and Val