Ok my life is so sad right now. I have a 2 hour break and I went to my car with the intention of napping, but I'm looking up arguments online debating who would win at a TBC between Sauron & Morgoth. So far, it looks like Morgoth was the ultimate evil badass, as I've been trying to actually fact check canonical sources (including posthumous publications and So Spake Tolkiens) and so far I'm trying to verify that Sauron at his most powerful peaked Morgoth at his weakest.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
voice, I found this quote online, sound like a particular influence on a character in ASOIAF? More specifically, a character whose name rhymes with "Ze Grape Mother"?
Morgoth spent his power in the 'brute force' method of attempting to control the very matter of Arda itself, e.g by creating the orcs, trolls, and dragons, raising the gigantic Iron Mountains, and changing the weather (the winters became colder in Beleriand as the power of Morgoth increased).
Granted this is a reader giving their opinion, but I'm pretty sure we've had similar arguments about The Long Night and TGO's influence over it in Heresy. Are any of GRRM's ideas original? Paging karsa and Atreyu! Morgoth also created dragons...It just kind of sounds like a familiar backstory from the North. Who was the one that caught on that GRRM also reflected Tad Williams? I'll have to go back and check that thread again.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Pretty sure you'd win. Sauron was Morgoth's underling, a Maia...like an archangel. Morgoth was a Vala, a god. No comparison.
I win! Yeah I thought Morgoth was worse but Chef picked Sauron, but he may of just said that to shut me up.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
voice , I found this quote online, sound like a particular influence on a character in ASOIAF? More specifically, a character whose name rhymes with "Ze Grape Mother"?
Morgoth spent his power in the 'brute force' method of attempting to control the very matter of Arda itself, e.g by creating the orcs, trolls, and dragons, raising the gigantic Iron Mountains, and changing the weather (the winters became colder in Beleriand as the power of Morgoth increased).
Granted this is a reader giving their opinion, but I'm pretty sure we've had similar arguments about The Long Night and TGO's influence over it in Heresy. Are any of GRRM's ideas original?
No. But, when you get down to it, everything written is a rip off of something else, even when it's unintentional.
However, HOWEVER, Martin is worse than most at using other author's ideas. Anyone who has read Robin Hobb's Farseer Trilogy should sit down a bit and start drawing parallels. She has a Varys (Chade), Ironborn (Red Raiders), Jon Snow the warg (Fitz), stone dragons, it goes on and on. I am eagerly awaiting HBO's disposition of Jon Snow because I am damned sure it Hobb wrote the revelation years and years ago.
As soon as the cameras are off I am going to fuck that little dog.
So I've been spewing vitriol most of the day and I wanted to end it with something a little more Tolkien-y, so enjoy
Let me tell you a little story, a story from middle earth.
During the reign of the Rohirrim king, Aldor, much land was captured from the Wildmen of Dunland, during one campaign the Dunlanders were even driven across the mountains and through the Gap of Rohan. While this was a golden age for the Rohirrim, the Wildmen never forgot the theft of their lands. They swore vengeance against the horse lords and took every opportunity to raid and pillage the lands that had once been their own.
Time passed and Aldor was succeeded by Frea and Frea by Freawine. Freawine passed the crown to Goldwine and Goldwine's heir was Deor, seventh King of Rohan. During his reign, the Wildmen, who for years had been subdued, once again threatened the peace of Rohan by raiding their northern lands & capturing the great tower fortress of Isengard. Although Deor led a mighty army against them, they could not assail Isengard and so, for a time, the Rohirrim were forced to live with the Dunlander threat. Indeed, Deor's son and heir Gram spent his entire 23 year reign at constant war with the Wildmen of the north.
Gram's son was Helm, he who would come to be known to posterity as Helm Hammerhand, King of Rohan. He too spent the entirety of his reign battling the Dunland threat but something was different. The Dunlanders were now led by a man known as Freca who claimed descent from Freawine, the fifth king of the Rohirrim, and as such was of both Dunlanding and Rohirrim blood.
Freca believed he could intimidate King Helm with his lineage and military position. He led a force to Edoras to negotiate a marriage proposal in which Helm's daughter would marry Freca's son, Wulf. Helm saw how Freca schemed for the throne of Edoras and so refused him. This led to an angry exchange in which Helm slew Freca with a mighty blow and declared Wulf and the Dunlanders, "enemies of Rohan".
Four years later, King Helm led a force to confront Wulf but the Dunlander was prepared and marched forth from Isengard, defeating King Helm in battle. The Dunlanders launched a full-scale invasion of Rohan, even killing Helm's son Haleth as he valiantly defended Edoras. The rest of the Rohirrim were routed and fled to the Hornberg. With Gondor engaged with the Corsairs of Umbar in the south, they were unable to come to Rohan's aid, the Rohirrim were alone.
With the last of the Rohirrim (including King Helm) besieged in the Hornberg and Helm's son dead by Wulf's hands, Wulf took the throne of Rohan ruling during a period that would come to be known as "The Long Winter".
King Helm grew gaunt and grey, trapped in the fortress that would later bear his name he could take no more. Helm would not stand by and watch his people slowly exterminated and so by night he would steal out of the fortress on a one man stealth mission to murder Dunland soldiers with his bare hands. Adding to the terror his nightly murder sprees began to generate, Helm would sound an ominous horn in the deep before leaving the fortress on his killing sprees. Unfortunately however, one man cannot defeat an entire army and one night Helm was unable to make it back to the safety of the Hornberg and froze to death outside it's walls.
When spring finally came Helm's nephew, Frealaf, led a small force from the Dunharrow keep and successfully assaulted Edoras, killing Wulf and becoming the 10th King of Rohan. With Gondor having vanquished the Corsairs they were able to join with Rohan to push back the Dunlanders and seize Isengard. The tower fortress was then granted to Sauroman the White, a powerful wizard who would watch over the northern borders of Rohan... for a time.
Recognize any story beats ? One or two have a certain whiff of familiarity don't they ?
Mojo , @morrigansraven , voice , DarkSister1001 , arrysfleas , Lady Dyanna , Thought I'd tag you guys in on this, I had fun writing it and I think it's a decent read. A nice antidote to some of the other stuff anyway
for clarification, it's the post above I'm talking about
Last Edit: Nov 4, 2016 11:29:31 GMT by pieceofgosa
Mojo , @morrigansraven , voice , DarkSister1001 , arrysfleas , Lady Dyanna , Thought I'd tag you guys in on this, I had fun writing it and I think it's a decent read. A nice antidote to some of the other stuff anyway
for clarification, it's the post above I'm talking about
Thanks for this! Isn't it interesting how the fighting could have stopped with a dynastic marriage?
Recognize any story beats ? One or two have a certain whiff of familiarity don't they ?
not being all that familiar with this nice story, i wonder if the Wildmen stand for the wildlings or some Other..
did the NK freeze to death?
Isengard being given to Sarauman the 'dirty' white appears to have been the wrong gift eventually.
I fear i am somewhat lost!!
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
not being all that familiar with this nice story, i wonder if the Wildmen stand for the wildlings or some Other..
did the NK freeze to death?
Isengard being given to Sarauman the 'dirty' white appears to have been the wrong gift eventually.
I fear i am somewhat lost!!
There aren't meant to be direct comparisons, more memories of legends or dreams of a collective unconscious. Something scary in the north, a people disenfranchised and clash between powers that share more in common than they would care to admit. It shows the hubris that even the great and legendary can display and how the white can turn to darkness.
I win! Yeah I thought Morgoth was worse but Chef picked Sauron, but he may of just said that to shut me up.
I can't believe I didn't weigh in on this. Sauron would not stand a chance, not even with the One Ring. Melkor (Morgoth) was one of the Ainur that participated in the creation of Arda, in fact in the creation of Ea itself. When his discordant notes corrupted the song, this allowed for the creation of evil and darkness in the world. Melkor is the father and creator of all evil. When the Ainur entered Ea and became Valar their fates became tied to the physical world but their power comes from Iluvatar and as such is beyond Ea. Named Morgoth, the black enemy, he was defeated and banished beyond Ea, trapped behind the Gates of Morning. He will return to complete the prophecies and begin Dagor Dagorath, the battle of battles. Sauron on the other hand is but a Maiar, created on Arda by the Valar. He would not stand a chance against the Black Enemy, not on his best day.
Mojo , @morrigansraven , voice , DarkSister1001 , arrysfleas , Lady Dyanna , Thought I'd tag you guys in on this, I had fun writing it and I think it's a decent read. A nice antidote to some of the other stuff anyway
for clarification, it's the post above I'm talking about
I read the first paragraph, but I'm still working on it. I was going to copy paste some of these essays we have here to read on the plane.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
With the last of the Rohirrim (including King Helm) besieged in the Hornberg and Helm's son dead by Wulf's hands, Wulf took the throne of Rohan ruling during a period that would come to be known as "The Long Winter".
Sounds awfully a lot like the Long Night, doesn't it, if I might state the obvious.
King Helm grew gaunt and grey, trapped in the fortress that would later bear his name he could take no more. Helm would not stand by and watch his people slowly exterminated and so by night he would steal out of the fortress on a one man stealth mission to murder Dunland soldiers with his bare hands. Adding to the terror his nightly murder sprees began to generate, Helm would sound an ominous horn in the deep before leaving the fortress on his killing sprees. Unfortunately however, one man cannot defeat an entire army and one night Helm was unable to make it back to the safety of the Hornberg and froze to death outside it's walls.
And Night's King/13th Lord Commander along with the Night's Watch, anyone?
It really is interesting to see how many parallels there are amongst some fantasy stories.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
Cheers m'lady (my browser is playing up so not all the smileys are working, I appreciate that would have been the perfect place to use the "clinking glasses" one)
Sounds awfully a lot like the Long Night, doesn't it, if I might state the obvious.
Well someone needed to !! Yes, yes it does. These fears though, fear that the sun will not return, fear of having your freedom taken by a tyrant (ahem), fear that your enemy is just like you and fear that you will be the cause of your own destruction are so primal and basic that they resonate through millennia and will continue to do so as long as something approximating a human walks the universe.
And Night's King/13th Lord Commander along with the Night's Watch, anyone?
It really is interesting to see how many parallels there are amongst some fantasy stories.
Another primal fear, "the corrupted hero" or dare I even, "the fallen angel". The fear that even the best of us will not be good enough. These stories resonate because they give us hope that we can overcome and they give us inspiration to make that happen. In the case of Helm, he redeems himself through personal sacrifice, it gives something to aspire to in our darkest moments. Even George, who shows the random and cruel nature of the world more than most, who shows the selfish, hateful nature of humanity gives us these people to aspire to. If I can be half the person that Brienne is, then may I die happy.
"Seven" she thought. She had no chance against seven. No chance and no choice. "Get away from her. If you want to try raping someone, try me".
My absolute bae, my spirit animal, my life. [HASH]WWBD
Cheers m'lady (my browser is playing up so not all the smileys are working, I appreciate that would have been the perfect place to use the "clinking glasses" one)
These fears though, fear that the sun will not return, fear of having your freedom taken by a tyrant (ahem), fear that your enemy is just like you and fear that you will be the cause of your own destruction are so primal and basic that they resonate through millennia and will continue to do so as long as something approximating a human walks the universe.
And that's exactly what they are, primal. You're correct. It's no wonder that centuries and more of mythology have been based upon these premises.
These stories resonate because they give us hope that we can overcome and they give us inspiration to make that happen. In the case of Helm, he redeems himself through personal sacrifice, it gives something to aspire to in our darkest moments. Even George, who shows the random and cruel nature of the world more than most, who shows the selfish, hateful nature of humanity gives us these people to aspire to.
And sometimes, it seems as if some of those more selfish and hateful people actually turn into someone to aspire to. Just look at the redemption arc of Jaime Lannister.
If I can be half the person that Brienne is, then may I die happy.
Again, Brienne is always there to protect those that may not be able to protect themselves, isn't she? She might not be perfect, but her moral compass is absolute and always seems able to point her in the right direction.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?