Looking at these quotes from a different perspective. Is it possible that in this case that the words are interchangeable because the white walkers are a type of Other? In this case the word "Others" could be swapped out because it was part of a broader category to which the white walkers belonged. The reverse might very well NOT be true, no matter how querulously Bran complained. lol.
Works for me--all labradors are dogs but not all dogs are labradors?
I do think that something is behind the walkers and the wights. And that they all could be "Others." But not sure on the statements re: the Others having females of the "species" given that the Night's Queen and Val look a lot alike. And Mel and Sansa both have very fair skin.
The Night's Queen could just be a priestess, like Val or Mel.
Seeing the Others riding giant seahorses would be amazing however.
Patchface jumped up. "I will lead it!" His bells rang merrily. "We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh."
I like it--ice-water dragons!
And the shells would be the war horns??
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Oh definitely. And Dawn burns Red. We'll convince LmL one of these days.
Just FYI I'm not opposed to Dawn burning red. I think it's very possible. My stipulation was that in order for this to happen, it would have to be soiled in blood sacrifice, and I suspect it would no longer be white at that point. Of course I think there's also a chance Jon will wield his father's sword Black Ice - turned - Oathkeeper, the black and red sword of night and blood with a flaming crossguard. Of course in his burning red sword dream, it's Longclaw - a black sword - but since it has the pale stone pommel, it's possible to read the tea leaves either way. I talked about this a bit in my newest podcast... I'm honestly not sure whether the ultimate sword will be white or black.
I am also on the record as loving SlyWren's Jon = SOTM thread and agreeing that he is some kind of a SOTM, in some sense.
Oh definitely. And Dawn burns Red. We'll convince LmL one of these days.
Just FYI I'm not opposed to Dawn burning red. I think it's very possible. My stipulation was that in order for this to happen, it would have to be soiled in blood sacrifice, and I suspect it would no longer be white at that point. Of course I think there's also a chance Jon will wield his father's sword Black Ice - turned - Oathkeeper, the black and red sword of night and blood with a flaming crossguard. Of course in his burning red sword dream, it's Longclaw - a black sword - but since it has the pale stone pommel, it's possible to read the tea leaves either way. I talked about this a bit in my newest podcast... I'm honestly not sure whether the ultimate sword will be white or black.
I am also on the record as loving SlyWren's Jon = SOTM thread and agreeing that he is some kind of a SOTM, in some sense.
Speaking of your podcasts, the mod squad was talking about setting up a featured subforum to showcase such efforts a bit more. There are several great projects going, and I had a feeling yours would be well done. You have a very clear voice for it. Is the lady your significant other?
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
Just FYI I'm not opposed to Dawn burning red. I think it's very possible. My stipulation was that in order for this to happen, it would have to be soiled in blood sacrifice, and I suspect it would no longer be white at that point. Of course I think there's also a chance Jon will wield his father's sword Black Ice - turned - Oathkeeper, the black and red sword of night and blood with a flaming crossguard. Of course in his burning red sword dream, it's Longclaw - a black sword - but since it has the pale stone pommel, it's possible to read the tea leaves either way. I talked about this a bit in my newest podcast... I'm honestly not sure whether the ultimate sword will be white or black.
I am also on the record as loving SlyWren's Jon = SOTM thread and agreeing that he is some kind of a SOTM, in some sense.
Speaking of your podcasts, the mod squad was talking about setting up a featured subforum to showcase such efforts a bit more. There are several great projects going, and I had a feeling yours would be well done. You have a very clear voice for it. Is the lady your significant other?
Thanks voice, that means a lot. The female voice on the first two episodes and the very beginning intro on all episodes is my wife, yes. That's the "Amethyst Koala." (Her birthstone is amethyst, and mine bloodstone, ironically). Another friend of mine (Lady Nightwind) has done the female vocals on ep 3 and 4, because my wife is in an MBA program AND works full time and just doesn't have time right now.
If you set up such a sub forum I would of course be happy to post new stuff there and hang around for discussion. I had to step away from all my social media for about a month and half to finish my last episode, but I should be around.
Yeah I really like it. I drive a lot so I'm always looking for audiobooks and podcasts. Yours has better production value than most. Can tell you put a lot of time into it. My only criticism would be that on my beats by dre headphones, the guitar riffs sound crazy loud compared to the voices. So if I have the audio cranked up to hear you guys over cars and traffic and stuff, it's a little jarring when the guitar starts up. Very nicely done from top to bottom though.
But yeah we've been talking about a subforum for media projects. I'll talk to the others and see if they still wanna do it.
Just FYI I'm not opposed to Dawn burning red. I think it's very possible. My stipulation was that in order for this to happen, it would have to be soiled in blood sacrifice, and I suspect it would no longer be white at that point.
Cool. I see it more as something that Dawn does anyway...seeing as sunrise brings heat and warmth to the world everyday, and is often cited as burning red. Not always, but often enough to wonder. Then we have the Wall itself, of which I see Dawn as a mini-representation.
It shines like blue crystal, but can also seem pale grey, white, and even burn like fire depending on the light.
Of course I think there's also a chance Jon will wield his father's sword Black Ice - turned - Oathkeeper, the black and red sword of night and blood with a flaming crossguard. Of course in his burning red sword dream, it's Longclaw - a black sword
Certainly a chance for anything, but I don't think Oathkeeper is all that unique in the 7k, and far less unique in the world at large.
but since it has the pale stone pommel, it's possible to read the tea leaves either way. I talked about this a bit in my newest podcast... I'm honestly not sure whether the ultimate sword will be white or black.
I am also on the record as loving SlyWren's Jon = SOTM thread and agreeing that he is some kind of a SOTM, in some sense.
Cool. Glad to hear you're keeping an open mind on it. Tis easy to get so wrapped up in one's own perspective that one begins to believe theirs is the only idea that makes sense. Hard to believe, but I've done it myself. LOL
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
voice: also, I do think the show might be supporting your hierarchy theory. The NK, transformed by the children, would be your original ancient Others, while the walkers (Craster's sons and who knows who else's) are humans transformed by NK himself. The other WW should not have obsidian in them - we've seen their creation, and it's just he NK touching them with his finger, perhaps only in that special place or whatever. Ergo, the regular Walkers might be vulnerable to obsidian, but NK might not be, already having it inside him.
Yup. I am glad that they are showing that the Others do indeed have a hierarchy. And I noticed the same correlations you point out. But I still contend that the hierarchy was evident in the books since the very first chapter...
A Game of Thrones - Prologue
The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.
They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.
And then a bit later...
A Game of Thrones - Prologue
The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.
But yes, I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps that is how the show will demonstrate the uniqueness of NK. In my book (heh) he is already unique, because he is the only man ever said to have learned the language of the children of the forest: Bran the Builder, the 13th Hero.
Just as Mance organized the wildlings and giants, I believe Bran the Builder organized the Others, and militarized them.
He "built" the Night's Watch....but the Night's Watch we know and love today is only the remnant squadron that never completed the next stage of the Vows he composed. The elder Rangers are those who Night's King converted, and the white walkers (imo) are more recent recruits.
When the Other halted before Ser Waymar, what might he have done had Ser Waymar sheathed his sword and knelt? Certainly, his words might not have been as mocking. Waymar chose to be a foe. The Others might not have loved the black brothers, but to the Others, Will and Waymar would have felt like an unnatural and threatening presence in their winter wonderland: Men with the means of making fire, with hot blood in their veins.
You know you talk about the Hierarcy of Others and i still don't know 'who' you mean and i asked you this.We know there's a Hierarcy for some of us that wasn't even an arguement though i still contend no one has ever seen the Others the real power behind the wws and the wights though they know who they are.Its just that knowledge fell from memory and the term got thrown on what people did see.
I also believe 100% that BTB and TLH became "green"seers again the label not important.If we look at what you quoted
The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles."
Where have we seen this before over and over n the books.Its extended skinchanging ability 101.
I guess what i'm trying to get at is what you visualize when you use the term "ancient others" because isn't that redundant?
We know there's a Hierarcy for some of us that wasn't even an arguement though i still contend no one has ever seen the Others the real power behind the wws and the wights though they know who they are.Its just that knowledge fell from memory and the term got thrown on what people did see.
It was never much of an argument for you, yes. I remember you were one of the few who supported my dearest of pet theories when I was a novice in Heresy.
BC said I was complicating the story, and you told him not so fast, because that querulous response from Bran did indeed sound like there was a distinction to be made. But back in those days, BC did not believe NK existed, let alone that there was a hierarchy. Now, he's even coming around to the possibility of ice spiders. Our Papa Crow has come a long, long way. Bring a tear to my eye to see how much he's grown. lol
We agree on everything in this part of your response.
I also believe 100% that BTB and TLH became "green"seers again the label not important.If we look at what you quoted
A huge possiblity, and one which I have no issue with at all.
But I would argue that his Otherization was not a product of that greenseeing ability, if he ever did attain it. Instead, I believe it was an entirely different power (miasma - a contagious power with a life of its own).
The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles."
Where have we seen this before over and over n the books.Its extended skinchanging ability 101.
Is it? Seems to me many military traditions use signals without skinchanging into each other. These brothers seem to have a common language, common customs, and a common understanding of what is appropriate and what is not. No need for Ser Crackles to warg into the others.
Ned did not need to tell his sons to stay back when he was cutting off Gared's head after all. Nor did he require the ability to skinchange into them to keep them at a respectful distance.
I guess what i'm trying to get at is what you visualize when you use the term "ancient others" because isn't that redundant?
If you believe that the Others of now are the Others of 8000 years ago, then yes. Very redundant. I had to use that term because of opposition in Heresy. Hard to believe, I know, but there was a guy over there who believed the Others were recent creations, made from Craster's sons.
Thus I had to augment my terminology to demonstrate that no, while there might be some more recent recruits, the Others of now are the Others of Old.
That idea, too, was met with considerable opposition before the Oathkeeper episode.
Hard to imagine now. People are much more open to the idea of NK and the Others being ancient. But back then, nope. Quite the uphill battle.
I am very late for this discussion, but if you don't mind, i will put a few thoughts:
So, yes the Others are always capitalised and this denotes an organisation, ie Night's Watch, or a people, ie Westerosi, or a family, ie Starks, or a nation, ie First Men, but not a race, ie men or children otf.
Ww and wights, are regular members of this 'nation', just like rangers in the NW (except for the First Ranger, but that is a title).
we have not seen that yet, have we? Waymar did not have a torch and Grenn did not get even close with his (if it happened in the show, i am ignoring that).
5. They may ride giant ice-spiders The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . . . (Samwell I - ASOS)
in this passage, Sam is talking about ww, he does not specifically use the word Others....and Bran is not there to be querulous.
It seems to me that the Others (proper) are the commanders - the ones who give their "silent signal" for their white walkers to move from the trees.
yes, possibly but it is also possible that there was, in the case of Waymar, a First WW to give the nod. Else, there is remote control of some kind. I would not call it skin changing, there are no animal cells involved, we'd need some other word related to the spell they are supposedly under.
What's more, is that Jon affirms Osha's claim that the wildlings have faced wights and white walkers, and like Osha, he never claims they have faced the Others...
A Dance with Dragons - Jon V
"You crows eat good enough." Halleck shoved forward.
For now. "We hold the Wall. The Wall protects the realm … and you now. You know the foe we face. You know what's coming down on us. Some of you have faced them before. Wights and white walkers, dead things with blue eyes and black hands. I've seen them too, fought them, sent one to hell.
I do not read this that way; we have not heard any wildling telling Jon on-page that they have faced ww. Jon even say 'i have seen them too' without precising what he saw, and if he saw a ww, he never mentioned it. Osha does talk about ww, so they know about them and Stiv - who was one of her companions when they attacked Bran - also talks about them and it appears he has seen at least one.
the Others ride mounts, wear armor, and carry swords
certainly the ww do, and as they are part of the Other 'nation', but if there is also another entity in that nation called Other, then i am not sure we have seen that in the text, i may have missed it
They hate iron and fire and the "touch of the sun."
I have been re-reading the Sam encounter, which I have always found very unsatisfactory, and I noticed that whilst Sam and Grenn are discussing the merits of the DG dagger, dawn was already rising:
Grenn pulled Sam to his feet, checked Small Paul for a pulse and closed his eyes, then snatched up the dagger again. This time he was able to hold it.
"You keep it," Sam said. "You're not craven like me."
"So craven you killed an Other." Grenn pointed with the knife. "Look there, through the trees. Pink light. Dawn, Sam. Dawn. That must be east. If we head that way, we should catch Mormont.
Can the ww cope with the touch of dawn? (note the special effects..)
Did Sam and Grenn re-enact the Battle for the Dawn?
Was our favourite frosty-fruit touched by the dawn as much as by a DG dagger?
I must apologise for the nit-picking and I feel a bit sorry to give you all this additional homework!
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
I must apologise for the nit-picking and I feel a bit sorry to give you all this additional homework!
LOL! No need, I love talking about this stuff.
You bring up some excellent points, and holes in this theory that I've needed to address for some time. I am of the mind we haven't seen the 'actual Others' yet either, as it was not winter/night until now... but we are told they rode/had Ice Spiders the first time they came.
I'll respond to your post in detail when I'm back on the computer. I'll be stuck on tapatalk for a bit.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
I am very late for this discussion, but if you don't mind, i will put a few thoughts:
So, yes the Others are always capitalised and this denotes an organisation, ie Night's Watch, or a people, ie Westerosi, or a family, ie Starks, or a nation, ie First Men, but not a race, ie men or children otf.
Ww and wights, are regular members of this 'nation', just like rangers in the NW (except for the First Ranger, but that is a title).
So i think we agree on this.
The "First Ranger" capitalization is one of import in my opinion. It makes me recall the First Hero, the Second, and so on, all the way down to the Thirteenth Hero to lead the Night's Watch.
The Night's Watch is another that stands out. The Others seem to burn with the cold just at black brothers burn against the cold. Burning cold unites them, as does darkness, and the blowing of wind (horns, WoW), and, well pretty much everything from the NW vow:
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
The Others are nothing if not swords in the darkness who father no sons, and instead rely upon "the neverborn." They take no wives, and seem to be all male. Unless there is an arctic version of Mole's Town, they seem to be keeping the vows far better than the human brothers who swear them. The only exception to this is the denial of crowns and glory, which I believe was added to the vow (like the fathering of sons admonition) after the rise and fall of the Night's King.
The Night's King of the Night's Watch is coming home for his Others' Sworn Brothers.
"Sworn Brother" is another interesting capitalization, and one that I believe will prove very important as the story concludes. (IF the story ever concludes. LOL) Sworn Brother is not quite a rank, not quite a title. It could be seen as an honorific of sorts, I think. It is applied upon the speaking of the words, and as Jon says, the words matter. I'm thinking the term 'Other' is quite similar, if not identical to 'Sworn Brother' in this way.
That word matters too. The question becomes, what otherized the Others?
we have not seen that yet, have we? Waymar did not have a torch and Grenn did not get even close with his (if it happened in the show, i am ignoring that).
We have not seen that yet, true. And I too am ignoring the show, so we're good.
What we have seen is an Other, or a white walker(?), slice the flame from a torch and extinguish it.
If Ser Puddles were susceptible to flame, his sword proved not to be. And if they wield fireproof swords, then I would assume their armor, too, is fireproof. That is quite admittedly an entirely speculative suggestion, but one that I am comfortable making. They can forge a fireproof substance from ice, and considering the flammability of their wights, it would be safe to assume that they would be expecting attacks in the form of fire. They know they bring the cold, after all.
Considering they themselves are made of ice, and that the wildlings in the Prologue had a fire pit near at hand, and that the wildlings all have the means of making fire and yet fled with Mance to hide behind the Wall, I think it is safe to assume that fire does little to them.
There is also this:
"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed," said Sam, "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian." He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragonglass dagger Jon had made for him. "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."
"Dismay" sounds like far too weak a word choice if it killed them. And really, even their vulnerability to dragonglass sounds suspect. I think dragonglass only temporarily disrupts their crystalline/molecular binding. Snowflakes melt, but one cannot kill snow and ice with fire, or even salt. Once melted and evaporated, it returns to the miasma only to freeze and fall again.
The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . . . (Samwell I - ASOS)
in this passage, Sam is talking about ww, he does not specifically use the word Others....and Bran is not there to be querulous.
Indeed.
But Old Nan did attribute ice spider to the Others, as did the Annals:
"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes. The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night . . . or else night falls when they emerge. Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true. Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."
And I have a more biased way of reading the quote you provided...
The white walkers of the wood,
the cold shadows,
the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . . . (Samwell I - ASOS)
I have a feeling that what will be "hungry for blood" are not the monsters, the cold shadows, nor the white walkers. I think what will be hungry for blood are the ice spiders. I'm looking forward to seeing the Boltons of Winterfell in their icy embrace. But back to your point.
Bran is not here to be querulous but I am. LOL
I think Samwell, like other Westerosi, has forgotten the hierarchy and taxonomy of the things that came in the Long Night. It's been 8000 years or so, and everyone is understandably a little hazy on the details.
But I think the wetnurse tales bear much of the truth, and that Samwell was taught about multiple things. The "white walkers" and "the monsters" that rode their giant ice spiders need not be one and the same. The "cold shadows" might be either, or neither, or even both.
5. They do not stalk with white spiders, nor ride giant ice-spiders
see above.
see above.
It is admittedly, a very biased way of reading that quote. But since Bran is not here to be querulous, we must be. Unlike Bran, Samwell didn't like the scary stories. While Bran was hanging on Old Nan's every word, Sam was squeaking and trembling. Thus I believe Samwell's version is more susceptible to mistakes.
Bran on the other hand was so well-versed in these tales, hecorrected his wetnurse. Cool kid, that Bran. I just hope he isn't too cool for his own good. Bran has no fear, and that hasn't always worked out well, for Brandons.
They rise as corpses of those who have fallen to white walkers
and when affected by the mist.
Agreed. I should amend that. That was why I left it vague with the "those who have fallen" versus "those who have fallen/been killed in battle" with white walkers.
The wildlings in the AGOT Prologue certainly seem to have been killed without combat. Thistle and the tale of Tormund's son seem to suggest that those who freeze and die rise as wights. Period. And I have a feeling that every unburned corpse north of the Wall sneaks around at night, regardles of their cause of death. I should write children's stories. LOL
But yes, the mist! Or, it might be the Cold. Gared said it was the real enemy, and I have always taken Gared as one of our more knowledgeable characters in the series.
Now that I don't have to tiptoe around my miasma hypothesis any longer, I can say that I think it explains a lot of this. Granted, the Weirwood Ghost idea might be 100% wrong, but if miasma is afoot, and if it was created by the burning of otherwise eternal/growing weirs of consciousness, then it makes sense (in my head at least) that the burning of weirwoods would yield an eternal mist.
Mist, smoke, fog, smog. When one burns sacred carbon, one creates a miasma. The Greeks knew it, and the First Men are learning it.
What is interesting to consider, is the effects of the mist on the living. We see no visible side effects, but when we hear of Gared and other Sworn Brothers feeling intimidated by the cold winds, and then read of how Jon and Sansa are braced and strengthened by them, we should be seeing starry blue sirens and hearing wolf-howl alarms.
The cold winds blow, and Starks feel stronger.
Since 1996, people have wondered about the words, "winter is coming." While that mantra sounds queer and ominous to 99% of the entire population of Planetos (even wildings, "winter's people" Jon calls them, but he knows nothing... they are fleeing winter itself) ... Starks feel empowered by it.
Catelyn was wrong, the Starks are like other men... she could feel it:
The words gave her a chill, as they always did. The Stark words. Every noble house had its words. Family mottoes, touchstones, prayers of sorts, they boasted of honor and glory, promised loyalty and truth, swore faith and courage. All but the Starks. Winter is coming, said the Stark words. Not for the first time, she reflected on what a strange people these northerners were.
No. It is the same for the Starks, curious Cat. Run back to your garden. In this godswood, the house motto, touchstone, and prayer does indeed boast of honor and glory. It does indeed swear faith and courage. It's simply been too much time since the Long Night for you to understand that.
And yes, I know I speak to fictional characters far too often. LOL
It seems to me that the Others (proper) are the commanders - the ones who give their "silent signal" for their white walkers to move from the trees.
yes, possibly but it is also possible that there was, in the case of Waymar, a First WW to give the nod. Else, there is remote control of some kind. I would not call it skin changing, there are no animal cells involved, we'd need some other word related to the spell they are supposedly under.
We agree it should not be called skinchanging. I'll never understand why so many folks equate these powers.
I think there can be no doubt that some "First white walker" or "First Other" gave the nod. A nod is, after all, a silent signal. This line often gets blown out of porportion. It could well be that some sort of telepathy was used before Ser Crackles' brothers moved forward, but the story doesn't really require it. We use silent signals all the time. Paralanguage is as universal as language, in the human world. And these "Others" are quite human in terms of language and paralanguage.
I should note that in this part of the OP, I was not speaking of the AGOT Prologue specifically. I meant to suggest that the Ancient Others are the ones who give a silent signal (the wind) that gives ww's the okay to move outward from the trees.
And while "from the trees" may just mean 'from the cover of the trees,' I believe this word choice is another clue that this Other form of life was created by the burning of weirwoods.
I do not read this that way; we have not heard any wildling telling Jon on-page that they have faced ww. Jon even say 'i have seen them too' without precising what he saw, and if he saw a ww, he never mentioned it. Osha does talk about ww, so they know about them and Stiv - who was one of her companions when they attacked Bran - also talks about them and it appears he has seen at least one.
Perhaps "faced" was not the best word to use. It does seem as though the wildlings are fleeing white walkers though, else, why did they join Mance?
Some close encounters
1. Mormont, speaking to Tyrion: Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."
2. Stiv (deserter), speaking to Osha: "Mance be damned," the big man cursed. "You want to go back there, Osha? More fool you. Think the white walkers will care if you have a hostage?" He turned back to Bran and slashed at the strap around his thigh. The leather parted with a sigh.
3. Osha, speaking to Bran: Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter.
4. Jon, speaking to Sam: "You must tell them, Sam," he said. "The archmaesters. You must make them understand. The men who were at the Citadel when I was have been dead for fifty years. These others never knew me. My letters . . . in Oldtown, they must have read like the ravings of an old man whose wits had fled. You must convince them, where I could not. Tell them, Sam . . . tell them how it is upon the Wall . . . the wights and the white walkers, the creeping cold . . ."
5. Coldhands, speaking to Bran: "The white walkers go lightly on the snow," the ranger said. "You'll find no prints to mark their passage." A raven descended from above to settle on his shoulder. Only a dozen of the big black birds remained with them. The rest had vanished along the way; every dawn when they arose, there had been fewer of them. "Come," the bird squawked. "Come, come."
6. Jon, speaking to Halleck (a wildling) For now. "We hold the Wall. The Wall protects the realm … and you now. You know the foe we face. You know what's coming down on us. Some of you have faced them before. Wights and white walkers, dead things with blue eyes and black hands. I've seen them too, fought them, sent one to hell. They kill, then they send your dead against you. The giants were not able to stand against them, nor you Thenns, the ice-river clans, the Hornfoots, the free folk … and as the days grow shorter and the nights colder, they are growing stronger. You left your homes and came south in your hundreds and your thousands … why, but to escape them? To be safe. Well, it's the Wall that keeps you safe. It's us that keeps you safe, the black crows you despise."
7. Jon, speaking to Clydas: "Winter is coming," Jon said at last, breaking the awkward silence, "and with it the white walkers. The Wall is where we stop them. The Wall was made to stop them … but the Wall must be manned. This discussion is at an end. We have much to do before the gate is opened. Tormund and his people will need to be fed and clothed and housed. Some are sick and will need nursing. Those will fall to you, Clydas. Save as many as you can."
I think 1 and 2 demonstrate that the wildlings have at least seen white walkers. 3 seems to suggest that Osha has more experience with them than merely seeing them, but it could simply be that she (wisely) does not dismiss tales heard at a woman's breast. 4 introduces a "creeping cold" and sounds a lot like what Tormund described ("You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?" Note that at the end, Tormund speaks of Dawn). 5 Coldhands, who lives where the wildlings live, is very experienced with white walkers. That may mean nothing, but again, it does seem plausible that wildlings too would have faced them. Tormund's description of the dead men's masters seems rather specific if no wildlings had faced their like. 6 Jon says the wildlings have faced white walkers, and no wildlings contradict his assertion. 7 I just had to include this one because it speaks to my "winter is coming" comments above. Most people feel a strong, instinctual urge to flee from the winds of winter, but not Jon.
certainly the ww do, and as they are part of the Other 'nation', but if there is also another entity in that nation called Other, then i am not sure we have seen that in the text, i may have missed it
I agree, and am torn on the matter. There are some passages in the text that suggest we have indeed seen "the Others" but I do believe that since Winter has only just barely arrived and that there have been no ice spiders nor any foemen who would necessitate the building of a Wall, that we have yet to see the true commanders.
Still, I may well be wrong in believing that. Here are the mentions in the text that suggest the two encounters we've seen have been with "Others" (rather than "white walkers"):
The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.
The lower branches of the great green sentinel shed their burden of snow with a soft wet plop. Grenn spun, thrusting out his torch. "Who goes there?" A horse's head emerged from the darkness. Sam felt a moment's relief, until he saw the horse. Hoarfrost covered it like a sheen of frozen sweat, and a nest of stiff black entrails dragged from its open belly. On its back was a rider pale as ice. Sam made a whimpery sound deep in his throat. He was so scared he might have pissed himself all over again, but the cold was in him, a cold so savage that his bladder felt frozen solid. The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.
I have been re-reading the Sam encounter, which I have always found very unsatisfactory, and I noticed that whilst Sam and Grenn are discussing the merits of the DG dagger, dawn was already rising:
Indeed, which is a clue regarding something else, imo, but I'll come to that below. While dawn was already rising, it was still dark during their encounter with Ser Puddles. And there can be no denying that the DG dagger did indeed crack Ser Puddles' code. The point at which the DG dagger made contact with Ser Puddles is very clearly significant:
You can do it, you can, just do it. And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands. He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man's foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse.
Can the ww cope with the touch of dawn? (note the special effects..)
Precisely the right question to be asking, in my opinion.
No. They ONLY seem to emerge after sunset, and before dawn.
The touch of dawn's sun/son seems to be the one and only thing with which they cannot cope. Fire dismays them, DG is a vulnerability -- neither truly ends them. Only dawn can do that.
Did Sam and Grenn re-enact the Battle for the Dawn?
Oh yes. You are seeing what I am seeing my friend. This is precisely the part in the books that made me connect Ice and Dawn.
I would argue, we heard the "Song of Ice and Fire" at this moment:
The Other's sword gleamed with a faint blue glow, it moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam's ears sharp as a needle.
Was our favourite frosty-fruit touched by the dawn as much as by a DG dagger?
I don't think so. The touch of the dagger was quite audible, another song of ice and (frozen) fire. If dawn had touched this frosty-fruit, I believe there would have been no audible transition, other than the howl of wind. I imagine this Other/ww would have simply drifted into that wind, rather than melt and scream.
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."
The Others are nothing if not swords in the darkness who father no sons, and instead rely upon "the neverborn." They take no wives, and seem to be all male.
I did some revisions during the last few days, always useful prior to talking to teachers..., and i have come to a nickname for the Others which is very much like what you describe above:
Sworn Brother is not quite a rank, not quite a title. It could be seen as an honorific of sorts, I think. It is applied upon the speaking of the words, and as Jon says, the words matter. I'm thinking the term 'Other' is quite similar, if not identical to 'Sworn Brother' in this way.
That word matters too. The question becomes, what otherized the Others?
Yes, of course. I can argue the what, using chemistry but as for the WHO, at this stage of my understanding of fantasy, the only answer i have is 42.
No. It is the same for the Starks, curious Cat. Run back to your garden. In this godswood, the house motto, touchstone, and prayer does indeed boast of honor and glory. It does indeed swear faith and courage.
I sometimes think, these words are a threat to their neighbours. But that would also give them courage.
I think 1 and 2 demonstrate that the wildlings have at least seen white walkers. 3 seems to suggest that Osha has more experience with them than merely seeing them, but it could simply be that she (wisely) does not dismiss tales heard at a woman's breast.
Still, I may well be wrong in believing that. Here are the mentions in the text that suggest the two encounters we've seen have been with "Others" (rather than "white walkers"):
The Other slid forward on silent feet.
I see several instances in the text where Other and ww are used somewhat as a synonym.
CB5 - "And there are still giants there, and . . . the rest . . . the Others, and the children of the forest too?" "The giants I've seen, the children I've heard tell of, and the white walkers . . . why do you want to know?"
Bran is asking about the Others and Osha responds with the ww. Note that either she has not 'seen' or 'heard of' them. In light of her exchange about Mance and ww being just like rangers and her encounter with Stiv, she knows something as you mention above.
SJ6 - Grenn looked away. "He killed one of the Others, Jon. I saw it. He stabbed him with that dragonglass knife you made him, and we started calling him Sam the Slayer. He hated that."
Sam FS1 - "The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed," said Sam, "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian." He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragonglass dagger Jon had made for him.
Maester Aemon FS4 - Tell them, Sam . . . tell them how it is upon the Wall . . . the wights and the white walkers, the creeping cold . . ."
Jon DJ5 - Wights and white walkers, dead things with blue eyes and black hands. I've seen them too, fought them, sent one to hell.
Actually it seems that the term ww is used to embody the vague notion of Other. It is only after Sam and Grenn have had an encounter with a ww that Jon starts using the word ww. And Maester Aemon talks about ww with Sam, presumably he has also heard the story.
During his encounter, Sam sees (mayhaps..) an Other sliding etc; Later on it is crystallised (oops!) as a ww.
There are only 10 ww quotes in the text, one from Nan disputed by Bran, but i think she knows what she is saying, it is in Sam's tales too. A couple involving Stiv and Osha and i have explained that Stiv probably saw a ww. Coldhands must know and he talks about ww being light on the snow, which is the same description Same gave us of the Other he saw.
So there is a pattern here of zooming in on something more tangible by the characters who have been in contact with ww and those who have heard the tale first hand.
Which is what we find in the WiF:
WIF – Stormlands - Long before the coming of the First Men, all Westeros belonged to the elder races—the children of the forest and the giants (and, some say, the Others, the terrifying "white walkers" of the Long Night).
Whether the Others are equated to an elder race in this sentence though, i can't tell but I have to put some red ink in the margin, again, for the author being ambiguous!
A couple more things I noticed:
The Others 'take'. That is the most common curse in westeros, King Robert uses it 3 times in a row in his first chat with Ned. Which is a big hint about taking babies (i am starting to sound like a heretic...)
This one is Ned talking to Cat, inverting the quote
GC2 - Ned stood, and took her in his arms, and held her face close to his. "Rickon is very young," he said gently. "He should stay here with you and Robb. The others I would take with me."
and we know what happened to these others, one turned into a revenge killer and assassin and the other downgraded from would-be queen to bastard prisoner.
So, we have an Ice Watch with its ww and even a First Ww (ww akin but not just like rangers, as Osha mentioned) and the zombies of course. What we are missing is the LC.
some believe it is the children.... but the children are like the crannogmen, they are the greenies, they would not take side IMHO.
Last Edit: Jul 29, 2016 22:44:01 GMT by arrysfleas
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
The Others are nothing if not swords in the darkness who father no sons, and instead rely upon "the neverborn." They take no wives, and seem to be all male.
I did some revisions during the last few days, always useful prior to talking to teachers..., and i have come to a nickname for the Others which is very much like what you describe above:
the Ice Watch!
So we have the BrOthers of the Night's Watch vs the Others of the Ice Watch?
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!