So we have the BrOthers of the Night's Watch vs the Others of the Ice Watch?
sounds just right to me!
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
I did some revisions during the last few days, always useful prior to talking to teachers..., and i have come to a nickname for the Others which is very much like what you describe above:
Yes, of course. I can argue the what, using chemistry but as for the WHO, at this stage of my understanding of fantasy, the only answer i have is 42.
I'm leaning towards the destruction of weirwoods for the what, in terms of the original Others that came in the Long Night (the first, proper, "Others"), and I am leaning towards an otherization of living men for the creation of additional forces ("the neverborn," "white walkers").
Considering magic holds them together, and that the 1993 letter named them as "neverborn," I'm thinking female Others/white walkers are unnecessary.
...unless the time comes when they need to seduce a red-blooded man to come over to the blue team.
I see several instances in the text where Other and ww are used somewhat as a synonym.
CB5 - "And there are still giants there, and . . . the rest . . . the Others, and the children of the forest too?" "The giants I've seen, the children I've heard tell of, and the white walkers . . . why do you want to know?"
Bran is asking about the Others and Osha responds with the ww. Note that either she has not 'seen' or 'heard of' them. In light of her exchange about Mance and ww being just like rangers and her encounter with Stiv, she knows something as you mention above.
Yup. I've noticed this too. I attribute the overlap and generalization of each term to the fact that it has just been so very long since the Long Night.
The taxonomy has no longer been relevant, or important. Aside from wetnurses, few have had cause to discuss such details for 8000 years. The years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget.
Actually it seems that the term ww is used to embody the vague notion of Other. It is only after Sam and Grenn have had an encounter with a ww that Jon starts using the word ww. And Maester Aemon talks about ww with Sam, presumably he has also heard the story.
During his encounter, Sam sees (mayhaps..) an Other sliding etc; Later on it is crystallised (oops!) as a ww.
I just want to point out that the bold might be true in a more literal way than you intended.
Men confuse the terms, and even equate them.
For me, it has always stood out that Bran does not. GRRM likes to hide information in plain view, and I believe the perspective of a young brat, being disrespectful to his elder, is a good place to do it.
Men have been dismissing these tales for generations, while Bran has been noting every detail of them.
Recall how the men-grown all laughed at the broken boy when he suggested the children of the forest would rescue his uncle, just as they rescued the Last Hero. Well, Benjen is still lost, but Bran was not a fool. Men dismissed the wisdom he gained from a wet-nurse, just as Waymar disregarded the wisdom he learned from his own. Yet, Bran was not wrong. He, himself, was rescued by the children of the forest when light fled from the world and cold dead things rose and attacked his three companions in a frozen land.
A couple involving Stiv and Osha and i have explained that Stiv probably saw a ww. Coldhands must know and he talks about ww being light on the snow, which is the same description Same gave us of the Other he saw.
So there is a pattern here of zooming in on something more tangible by the characters who have been in contact with ww and those who have heard the tale first hand.
Yup. And in truth, there may be no difference at all between ww's and the Others. The term 'white walkers' is more common north of the Wall, and the term 'Others' is more common south of it. My guess is that "white walker" is a Common Tongue translation of an Old Tongue term for those that require three blasts of the horn (as "frozen fire" is a translation of a Valyrian term into the Common Tongue).
But, there must be a distinction between the original ones who first came in the Long Night, and any (theoretically) created by changing grown or infant humans into something other-ish, because that leads to a chicken and egg paradox.
In other words, if they are only created from offerings, such as Craster's sons, who first collected and transformed the offerings?
This is why I draw a distinction between the Others, who are always attributed to the Long Night (and who are the subject of Westeros' favorite cursing-phrase), and the white walkers (who are not capitalized and afforded that same level of respect).
It would be very hard for men to make the distinction at all when fleeing the white mists or having their swords shattered in combat, but I do think the distinction exists. Some First Men may have gotten close enough to learn of the difference.
WIF – Stormlands - Long before the coming of the First Men, all Westeros belonged to the elder races—the children of the forest and the giants (and, some say, the Others, the terrifying "white walkers" of the Long Night).
Whether the Others are equated to an elder race in this sentence though, i can't tell but I have to put some red ink in the margin, again, for the author being ambiguous!
Considering the maesters are relying upon the records of Andahli Septons, rather than wetnurses or runes, I put little stock in their interpretation.
The Others 'take'. That is the most common curse in westeros, King Robert uses it 3 times in a row in his first chat with Ned. Which is a big hint about taking babies (i am starting to sound like a heretic...)
This one is Ned talking to Cat, inverting the quote
GC2 - Ned stood, and took her in his arms, and held her face close to his. "Rickon is very young," he said gently. "He should stay here with you and Robb. The others I would take with me."
and we know what happened to these others, one turned into a revenge killer and assassin and the other downgraded from would-be queen to bastard prisoner.
So, we have an Ice Watch with its ww and even a First Ww (ww akin but not just like rangers, as Osha mentioned) and the zombies of course.
This certainly seems to be what we witnessed in the AGOT Prologue. It appeared very much like a training exercise, or at least, like a commander making an example of a would-be hero.
My guess is that "white walker" is a Common Tongue translation of an Old Tongue term for those that require three blasts of the horn (as "frozen fire" is a translation of a Valyrian term into the Common Tongue).
that is a very good suggestion; i like it! and the term was used in the very ancient tales, when the story tellers knew the old tongue.
I need to spend a bit of time teasing the text related to the Thenns...there should be something hiding in there somewhere.
But, there must be a distinction between the original ones who first came in the Long Night, and any (theoretically) created by changing grown or infant humans into something other-ish, because that leads to a chicken and egg paradox.
In other words, if they are only created from offerings, such as Craster's sons, who first collected and transformed the offerings?
good point and actually we don't have a description of the white walkers of the Long Night:
"You mean the Others," Bran said querulously. "The Others," Old Nan agreed.
Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins.
SS1- Sam ...The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . .
these are the tales Bran and Sam heard and there is no description, no mention of armour etc. If there is one, i have missed it.
Old Nan mentions 'dead things' which contradicts the 'neverborn', 'hated fire' which seems more a wight trait or a speculation for ww, 'iron' ? supposed to be a warding metal? till it rusts completely? and 'the touch of the sun', that one fits the whole hierarchy. Sam's wet nurse appears to tell him that white walkers were 'hungry for blood', this does not mesh with the 2 encounters we have seen.
Martin gave one:
In an email to the comic book artist Tommy Patterson, George R. R. Martin wrote: The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous. They wear reflective armour that shifts in colour with every step - rather like the stealth armour once said to have been worn by the children of the forest. According to Patterson, “ Had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words.
but who knows if he is referring to Ancient or recent apparitions. He is very clearly talking about 'Others' and in his 2 encounters he calls them Others too. The Sam and Jon and Aemon equates them to white walkers.
This makes me think that the ancient white walkers were not the same as the new ones. So i do agree with you.
Considering the maesters are relying upon the records of Andahli Septons, rather than wetnurses or runes, I put little stock in their interpretation.
you are probably right, the 'some said' is very frequently used, and perhaps it does mean - each time - 'some maester' since otherwise the source of ancient history is identified as tales, stories, songs or runes.
This certainly seems to be what we witnessed in the AGOT Prologue. It appeared very much like a training exercise, or at least, like a commander making an example of a would-be hero.
The 13th magnar to lead the Night's Watch is alive and well and looking for Dawn.
are you implying he has been 'living' for 8,000 years? or that someone is reliving his epic?
I hope i am not going around in circles!
Last Edit: Jul 31, 2016 11:00:25 GMT by arrysfleas
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Not at all! I am sorry for so long to respond!!! Can't believe I lost track of this thread.
oh! my! you are stretching my memory to breaking point! does that mean that one of these days you will pick up the Benjen inquest again?
I have not thought about this for ages except to say that i have a hunch that the earlier ww where in the shape of spiders. In any case i can't see them being in the shape of knights as that is a 'modern' projection.
I still believe that they resemble what people expect them to. Glamours. One day, I need to revisit the ww appearances to sort out whether the chapters were just poorly written or the witnesses' brains were tampered with.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Not at all! I am sorry for so long to respond!!! Can't believe I lost track of this thread.
oh! my! you are stretching my memory to breaking point! does that mean that one of these days you will pick up the Benjen inquest again?
I have not thought about this for ages except to say that i have a hunch that the earlier ww where in the shape of spiders. In any case i can't see them being in the shape of knights as that is a 'modern' projection.
I still believe that they resemble what people expect them to. Glamours. One day, I need to revisit the ww appearances to sort out whether the chapters were just poorly written or the witnesses' brains were tampered with.
Benjen's inquest! Yes! Thanks for reminding me of that one too! 🤓
"I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."