Post by voice on May 9, 2016 23:17:41 GMT
The Doom of Valyria is speculated by some maesters to be the result of infighting among Valyrian families. Perhaps Mother Rhoyne sent them something more than greyscale? And then the Targaryens brought it to Westeros, experiencing immense tragedies throughout their 300 year rule and often spreading this "bad luck" aka miasmas to others.
The Doom of Valyria is certainly a miamsa, but I do not see it as the miasma. It is a very strong parallel, and one of a very interesting equal and opposite nature (messing with volcanoes, creating doom, inflicted with greyscale, birth defects, etc). But I see the Song of Ice and Fire's miasma as coming from the First Men, and being spread by First Men.
In this context, RLJ would be kind of cool as it would mean Jon introduced the miasma to House Stark and is- unknowingly- responsible for all their suffering. Perhaps he will have to die to end the events that have been set in motion....
It would, and if RLJ, then Jon would likely be the carrier of both Valyrian Doom and the Northern Doom. LOL
This makes me think of all those old dead cities in the WB, like Yeen and Asshai. That's what they are, spiritually polluted. But also physically borderline uninhabitable, and we are lead to believe that terrible things happened there long ago.
Indeed! We also have the Essosi Long Night tales in the World Book and the Azor Ahai myth. I tend to view them as mistaken retellings of the factual history of the Last Hero/NK, but that does not mean they went untouched by the miasma. One the cold winds blow and the polar latitudes freeze over, everyone would be fucked.
The ancients and their blood sacrifices brought down terrible miasmas onto themselves and their cities, leading to their eventual extinction (probably through civil war, as Westeros is currently experiencing and which may be brewing in Essos) and leaving the ground polluted for millennia to come.
Indeed. And the First Men likely brought the blood sacrifice tradition with them from Essos. In this way, the would be polluting the Westerosi continent spiritually with blood shed in the name of magic and sacrifice, as well as physically with fire in the name of extermination. Sounds like a good way to anger mythological forces, and cause very real physical and medical miasmas.
Like... a human greenseer? Or a human taking an Other bride? Both of these seem quite out of the ordinary and were probably not approved by the Old Gods.
I don't think a human greenseer would be a problem. A tree is just a tree. It takes root in soil, earth, and decay. I don't think a tree would necessarily care if it is rooting in a human or a humanoid child of the forest.
But taking an Other bride would certainly seem to contribute (seed and soul) to the miasma, rather than weaken it. I believe it was NK's influence that militarized the antibodies and created the hierarchy.
I believe the original source of the miasma was the cutting and burning of weirwoods, as the Others seem uniquely adapted to the antigen of Men bearing fire and swords.
This is Jaime Lannister in every way! Complete with the communal absolution; thanks to the kingslayer, none of the Usurper's men had to taint their honor by killing the old king (which, let's face it, had to happen one way or another). Jaime is officially a 'man without honor', and they whisper kingslayer behind his back. He allows them to do this and feel good about themselves, despite acting quite honorably multiple times in the story and having once aspired to be like AD...
You could almost apply this to the Lannisters in general. Tywin is reviled by the Starks for killing the Targaryen children, yet it probably would have had to happen at some point anyway. Tyrion also fits, being reviled and mistrusted and blamed for everything from Tywin's whoring tax to the murder of Joffrey. Even Cersei is not to blame for her loveless marriage; it was Robert who never wanted her and let her know it from the start.
If the Lannisters are the scapegoats, then the Starks are the carriers of the miasma. Which they picked up from Rhaegar, like an STD...
Well, I don't think Rhaegar has much to do with the miasma, let alone Jon, but you already know my reasons why.
Jaime is certainly another scapegoat. Big time. In my opinion, he was fighting for his king, and stayed true to his vows. His king (like Arthur) just happened to be Rhaegar instead of Aerys.
I taught an Infectious Disease course last year and this came up. Led to a half-hour discussion of GoT instead of epidemiology, lol. I remember wondering at the time if GRRM was aware of the original J. Snow, and if there would be a connection, but couldn't think of a way to make it fit. I mean, the Pale Mare is similar to cholera, but they seem aware of how it is spread already. The same thing goes for greyscale and the Naathi butterfly disease.
That's awesome! I didn't know you were a teacher!
wolfmaid7 works in the health field as well. It would be cool to hear her thoughts on the original J-Snow.
But Other-ness/wightification... now that's interesting. We have often discussed on Heresy how exactly the dead rise beyond the Wall, i.e. do they have to be touched by a WW, or the mist, or does everybody rise, etc. Maybe Jon will figure this out somehow? And then be able to prevent it? I don't know, but the link between JS and epidemiology is a cool one!
Thank you! That's awesome that you had a discussion about John Snow and GoT before with your students. I must confess to doing the same. LOL
One small distinction I would raise, is that the real John Snow mainly found success after his death. Thus, we have the need for our Jon Snow to die. His wolf was always a clue this would happen, imo. And, like the real John Snow, his eyes alone were open while the others were still blind.
The Others...were still blind....
In other words, the Others are still caught in the miasma (as the real John Snow's contemporaries/adversaries would not and could not believe what John Snow alone could see). Thus, the cycle of infection continued in spite of many good intentions (mistakes).
So our Jon Snow, I believe, could only posthumously bring catharsis. But, a dead man makes a poor protagonist, so GRRM must needs bring him back. This is where I believe he reinvigorates the science with mythology, and so, enter Asclepius - the god (and 13th Hero) of medicine.
Many people see Jon Snow as the new Night's King, and I believe this is the reason why. Each is tied to Asclepius and I see the Wall as being Asclepius' serpentine staff (a snake to the west, a sword to the east). But I think Jon is more katharmos (antidote/scapegoat/innoculation/catharsis), and NK is more mysos and (community disease/defilement/miasma).
I could definitely be wrong about this, and about the entire theory, but that is how it all fits together in my head.