I think that Darkstar will kill Balon Swann early on in Winds. He will take Dawn and assume the role of Vulture King in the Red Mountains. After "killing" the KG from the Reach Arys Oakheart and killing KG from the Stormlands Balon Swann the disaffected war ready Dornish will flock to his banner. Obara Sand will join him and talking, walking camera Areo Hotah will be along for the ride.
Darkstar is playing a similar role for Doran that Lyn Corbray plays for Lord Baelish. Doran knows many Dornish long for war but knows it isn't time to openly oppose the Iron Throne. This allows Dorne to see which Lords still follow him while at the same time secretly controlling the opposing faction via Darkstar. Darkstar can attack the Reach, join Aegon, or just cause trouble for the Lannisters and Doran can keep his plausible deniablity. This is the role the Vulture Kings have played in the past.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Ooooh we may be getting somewhere! The idea of fated sacrifice makes me think of Jojen, and his "today is not the day I die" line. What if Ser Arthur knew he was going to die that day, either b/c a woods witch foresaw it, or Rhaegar/SAD had a dream, or somebody used a glass candle. The "how" doesn't really matter- but if there was a prophecy/prediction that the wolf would kill the SOTM... that would kind of explain SAD's attitude going into the fight, no? He doesn't want to die, he fights as well as he can. But he knows it will probably happen, so he is sad and resigned to his fate from the get-go. What do you think?
What do I think? You confirmed my suspicion. I knew you'd say it better than I did.
I not only agree with all you said, it's what I was thinking but was not stating all that clearly... I only have a few minor differences of opinon.
I think it is quite likely that Arthur was a fairly mopey kinda guy like Rhaegar. They were old friends, so I also find it highly unlikely Arthur was not familiar with prophecies. Where I differ, is that I like to pretend that whatever knowledge Arthur somehow had was from an old wetnurse at Starfall. Perhaps he knew, based on family lore, that he should not kill Ned at the tower of joy. And it is rather telling in my opinion that he did not. Clearly, he could have -- in both books and show -- and in both cases, he came just short of a death blow against our lord of Stark.
I like to pretend that House Stark and House Dayne share a common origin, and I like to pretend that Arthur Dayne would not have killed Ned because of it. I also like to pretend that Ned ignored whatever learning or instinct he might have had and only killed Arthur because he did not want Howland Reed to kill him.
I've been saying that stuff since long before this episode, so you can imagine my shrieks of delight in how the tower of joy sequence unfolded. LOL
I thought it was perfect. Even the changes, it was all perfect. I really really really need to watch it again because I can't remember how much was actually shown on the screen and how much only played out in my head. But in my head, I imagine Arthur Dayne talking to Ned before he dies (in the show, that was before the fight, but in the books, I'm hoping it is after) and telling Ned something that changes him from indignant opponent to reverent opponent... and sends him to Starfall.
In lieu of not yet rewatching the episode(s), I have been very pleased to see that others saw what I saw (check out this thread), and I think it can be argued that Arthur did not in fact fight as well as he could have.... he didn't fight to lose, but he didn't fight to win. I think he was trying to get Ned alone and disarmed so he could talk to him.
Howland screwed up that plan in the show, and probably will in the books too, but I'm hoping there is time for Ned to hear his final words before giving him the coup de grace.
Also, I believe Arthur gave Dawn to Ned before kneeling to him... but that is probably stretching the truth a bit. I really need to see it again, but that is what I wanted to happen while watching it and I saw enough to make me think that maybe it could have.
By Scapegoat you mean Jon, right? If so, it seems more straight-forward if the creation of the Scapegoat is what allowed the Others to return (possibly requiring SAD's sacrifice). But I must admit I am biased, as I think it would be really cool if the promise was to kill Jon, b/c Lyanna knew what his birth meant... When Ned promised, the fear went out of her eyes, b/c she was relieved not to be the cause of the next LN after all.
Yup Jon. The creation of the Scapegoat, as Katharmos/Catharsis, generally only occurs after the return of the miasma. And, they are often young.
The Others were free to come trick or treating once the Dawn of the Morning knelt to the King of Winter, and that is what Arthur did for Ned.
I think that Darkstar will kill Balon Swann early on in Winds. He will take Dawn and assume the role of Vulture King in the Red Mountains. After "killing" the KG from the Reach Arys Oakheart and killing KG from the Stormlands Balon Swann the disaffected war ready Dornish will flock to his banner. Obara Sand will join him and talking, walking camera Areo Hotah will be along for the ride.
Darkstar is playing a similar role for Doran that Lyn Corbray plays for Lord Baelish. Doran knows many Dornish long for war but knows it isn't time to openly oppose the Iron Throne. This allows Dorne to see which Lords still follow him while at the same time secretly controlling the opposing faction via Darkstar. Darkstar can attack the Reach, join Aegon, or just cause trouble for the Lannisters and Doran can keep his plausible deniablity. This is the role the Vulture Kings have played in the past.
Very interesting! And very in-character for Doran- I love it!! So Darkstar presumably was also the one who told Doran about Arianne's plot then, right? That fits pretty well, the one member of her party that she doesn't know well. Doran even tells her it was a mistake to include Darkstar. So that fits.
I'm not sure how he's supposed to get to Dawn though- isn't it at Starfall? Can he just walk in there and take it, now that he's the most wanted man in Dorne? I would expect it to be well guarded. And he really doesn't need Dawn to carry out the above plan, does he? (Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Dawn make an appearance- but if the A+L=J theory is correct, I would guess it's hidden in the lower WF crypts, calling to Jon (hence his dreams of having to do down there even though he's not a Stark), and it's he who will retrieve it when he's ready).
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
I think it is quite likely that Arthur was a fairly mopey kinda guy like Rhaegar. They were old friends, so I also find it highly unlikely Arthur was not familiar with prophecies. Where I differ, is that I like to pretend that whatever knowledge Arthur somehow had was from an old wetnurse at Starfall. Perhaps he knew, based on family lore, that he should not kill Ned at the tower of joy. And it is rather telling in my opinion that he did not. Clearly, he could have -- in both books and show -- and in both cases, he came just short of a death blow against our lord of Stark.
I'm fine with the first part, about SAD hearing TOJ warnings from someone at Starfall. Since there is nothing in the text, he could have learned about it from any source, including a wet nurse.
About not killing Ned... to me (having seen it 3 times now), it didn't look like he planned to spare Ned. He had him disarmed, and was getting ready to swing at him when Howland intervened. Here's a clip of just the TOJ scene (the moment in question is at about 4:20); SAD is clearly raising his sword when Howland stabs him:
I like to pretend that House Stark and House Dayne share a common origin, and I like to pretend that Arthur Dayne would not have killed Ned because of it. I also like to pretend that Ned ignored whatever learning or instinct he might have had and only killed Arthur because he did not want Howland Reed to kill him.
You are certainly welcome to pretend whatever you like, lol, but in the show at least I don't see the evidence. SAD looked about to kill Ned; I see no hesitation or attempt to talk to him at all.
As for Ned killing him.. I don't think it's that he wanted to take the kill from Howland. Howland had already killed him, he was just taking a few moments to lose consciousness. There is zero chance that he could have survived being stabbed through the throat, even if a maester had been present. Ned ended his suffering, nothing more. (IMO, of course. We are all just interpreting what we see .
I thought it was perfect. Even the changes, it was all perfect. I really really really need to watch it again because I can't remember how much was actually shown on the screen and how much only played out in my head. But in my head, I imagine Arthur Dayne talking to Ned before he dies (in the show, that was before the fight, but in the books, I'm hoping it is after) and telling Ned something that changes him from indignant opponent to reverent opponent... and sends him to Starfall.
Maybe in the books this will happen. In the show, the only dialogue we got was straight out of Ned's fever dream (with the addition of "where's my sister" and "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come"). I suspect (admittedly with no evidence) that Ned will learn something in the tower that will change his view of SAD. I suspect SAD actually had a very honorable reason to be there, and to be defending the tower against Ned and his men... and once Ned learns this, he will respect him for more than just being a great fighter.
In lieu of not yet rewatching the episode(s), I have been very pleased to see that others saw what I saw (check out this thread), and I think it can be argued that Arthur did not in fact fight as well as he could have.... he didn't fight to lose, but he didn't fight to win. I think he was trying to get Ned alone and disarmed so he could talk to him.
But he did almost win- he was seconds away from it when he was stabbed from behind. How could he have planned that? And he had Ned disarmed, and rather than pause or hesitate, he raised his sword to end it. We also know from Ned that "he would have killed me but for Howland Reed".
Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasoning of SAD was such a great knight, he a) wouldn't have killed unarmed Ned and b ) wouldn't have lost unless a part of him wanted it or he did something to make it happen (i.e. hesitate). But to me, the way it went down in the show is exactly as it should be: a sad, tragic event in which a great knight was killed from behind by a sneaky crannogman, and Ned is given credit for a victory that to him, is a bitter memory. SAD shouldn't have died in this way, killed by a man who wasn't even a knight and without an opportunity for final words... alone in the middle of nowhere, having failed in his final mission. That's the tragedy of the fight, something that haunts Ned for the rest of his life, and turning it into something else takes away from that, IMO.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Christ does the whole scene ever change completely when you do this
I don't know if it's just the Star Wars effect of seeing who's got which colour lightsaber, but I swear the scene looks completely different when you watch it like this. Hightower kills that guy in a rage, Arthur is mercilessly striking down anybody who comes at him, he hatefully looks at Ned as Ned takes up Dawn to strike him down, etc.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Ooooh yes, now it's coming together. The idea of Bran "breaking" past Hodor has been around for a couple of weeks now, but you've added the incentive for him to be desperate to communicate with Ned- nice work! I bet he figures out how to go "under the sea" without BR, and sneaks off to WF to try and stop the TOJ from happening. And fails miserably. Yes yes yes!! Love it!
HA! "Love it" and "break Hodor" are an odd combination. But thanks!
Was also thinking--in the scene where Bran sees Hodor talk, before we see Hodor, they are asking Benjen who he'll spar with when Ned goes to the Eyrie. Lyanna looks straight at Bran and says "What about him?" Bran's shocked until he realizes she's talking to Hodor behind him.
In short, Lyanna speaks to Hodor and Bran thinks she means him. Could just be staging. But cold be a hint that Bran and Hodor are more connected than Bran currently knows. Bran does take over Hodor with surprising ease compared to what we see with Varamyr and Thistle. Could be that's because Bran forced his way in earlier and now Hodor is easier to take.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
About not killing Ned... to me (having seen it 3 times now), it didn't look like he planned to spare Ned. He had him disarmed, and was getting ready to swing at him when Howland intervened. Here's a clip of just the TOJ scene (the moment in question is at about 4:20); SAD is clearly raising his sword when Howland stabs him:
I agree Arthur meant to strike. But the way he swings his arm--all he had to do was stab Ned. If he means to strike Ned with his sword hilt to knock him out, the swing makes sense. Otherwise, just stab up into the neck.
But it might just have been staging to give Howland time to get Arthur.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
The thing that made me note it was Jon's de-cloaking. In the same episode. The show likes its parallels in its imagery. This seems like a potential parallel.
Not to mention in the episode titled "Oathbreaker." Let's not forget that.
Why must I always be the isle of crazy alone in an ocean of sensibility? The should to everybody else’s shouldn’t? The I-will to their better-nots?
In short, Lyanna speaks to Hodor and Bran thinks she means him. Could just be staging. But cold be a hint that Bran and Hodor are more connected than Bran currently knows. Bran does take over Hodor with surprising ease compared to what we see with Varamyr and Thistle. Could be that's because Bran forced his way in earlier and now Hodor is easier to take.
This makes a lot of sense. If we want to go even darker, BR could tell Bran that he has to break Hodor on purpose so that future Bran can use him.
I agree Arthur meant to strike. But the way he swings his arm--all he had to do was stab Ned. If he means to strike Ned with his sword hilt to knock him out, the swing makes sense. Otherwise, just stab up into the neck.
But literally five seconds later, when Ned has the sword, he also raises it for the kill rather than stabbing Arthur in the neck. It's the honorable way to kill a defeated enemy. Plus Arthur thought Ned was his last opponent, and he had disarmed him - so there was no reason for him to rush.
Why would he want to knock him out?? For what? I could see him wanting to talk to Ned- except he doesn't, he raises his sword...
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”