Post by SlyWren on Jul 23, 2015 22:09:59 GMT
I've no idea what the appropriate wait time for a long post is on this forum. But here goes. During a particularly lively bit of discussion over on Westeros RLJ, I made a list of what I think is the "evidence" (of varying strengths) re: RLJ. Seems as good a place as any to start a debate. So here it is. Attack, mock, comment at will.
List of RLJ Evidence as Given in Text
General Warning: If characters can misread symbols, dreams, visions, myths, prophecies, statements, stories, histories, conversations, and all the rest—so can readers. Should proceed with caution.
Actual Contact: L and R both at Harrenhal tournament—total amount of actual contact unknown
L cries at R’s song—indirect contact
R gives L crown–direct contact, context to be determined
Elopement: “general knowledge” that R and companions “fell on Lyanna” and that R+L “ran off” or “R kidnapped L”—source not given--indirect evidence.
No one in text contradicts official story that L and R disappeared together.
Baby: Lyanna’s “bed of blood:” Ned finds Lyanna in “her bed of blood.”
Text only refers to childbirth with phrases like “her bed of blood” and “the bloody bed.”
Other characters have wounds or bleed in bed—but texts don’t use the above phrases.
Texts do not directly limit the above phrases to childbirth. Do not directly branch them out, either.
No evidence of hypothetical child’s gender and/or current state of alive-ness.
Connections made by those who should know:
Ned connects 3KG with tower with Lya in bed of blood—context to be determined.
Ned remembers promises to Lya—multiple contexts, actual promises not delineated
Ned’s thinks R=not visited brothels. Thoughts not expansive. Significance to be determined.
General Belief of Connections (vs. Ned’s Specifics):
Robert thinks R stole and raped L—evidence for statement not given.
Cersei thinks “wolfgirl” needed/wanted by R. Kevan thinks similar—evidence for statement not given.
Barristan thinks R loved his Lady L—evidence for statement not given.
Viserys believes R loved L; Dany believes it—evidence for statement not given.
Symbols Clearly Defined (roses and Lyanna): Rose Crown—R puts in L’s lap; Ned dreams of its thorns cutting him.
Ned remembers Lya’s loving the scent of roses
Ned’s dream of sky streaked with blood and roses
Ned remembers Lya’s dying in room smelling of blood and roses
Story of Bael the Bard—blue rose of Winterfell—tie to stolen Stark maiden
Theon’s dream of Lya with rose crown and gore-spattered gown
Blue rose at Wall filling air with sweetness—implies something at Wall is connected to Lya, to her death. Something she loved (like she loved the scent of roses).
Suggestive Imagery (though not clearly tied to specific meanings)
Jon’s fire dreams: associated with Targ “Fire and Blood.” Not exclusive to Targs—also R’hllor.Plus, fire exists all over—not as specific as blue roses.
Jon’s dragon dreams—not defined as exclusive in a world with dragon stories and history of dragons (and a few current dragons). Not as specific as blue roses.
Jon dreams of fiery sword—implies tie to AA myth. Not exclusive to Jon. Beric, Thoros, and Stannis have flaming swords (of varying “authenticity,” but no less extant)
Interesting but Unclear Associations
Dany’s vision of blue rose in wall of ice—implied tie to Jon (see above)—tie to Dany? Unclear.
Dany in House of Undying—sees Rhaegar speak of PtwP and dragon having 3 heads then “looks” at Dany. Tie to Lya and/or Jon? Unstated.
“It was said” that Rhaegar called the watchtower the tower of joy—source or context for statement—unknown. Source or context when Ned heard this—unknown. Ned associates this with memory of 3KG at tower—reasons unclear.
“Knight of Laughing Tree” story: if Lyanna was the Knight, and if Rhaegar (and guard) found out, might have been a meeting point prior to giving rose crown. That’s a lot of ifs.
List of RLJ Evidence as Given in Text
General Warning: If characters can misread symbols, dreams, visions, myths, prophecies, statements, stories, histories, conversations, and all the rest—so can readers. Should proceed with caution.
Actual Contact: L and R both at Harrenhal tournament—total amount of actual contact unknown
L cries at R’s song—indirect contact
R gives L crown–direct contact, context to be determined
Elopement: “general knowledge” that R and companions “fell on Lyanna” and that R+L “ran off” or “R kidnapped L”—source not given--indirect evidence.
No one in text contradicts official story that L and R disappeared together.
Baby: Lyanna’s “bed of blood:” Ned finds Lyanna in “her bed of blood.”
Text only refers to childbirth with phrases like “her bed of blood” and “the bloody bed.”
Other characters have wounds or bleed in bed—but texts don’t use the above phrases.
Texts do not directly limit the above phrases to childbirth. Do not directly branch them out, either.
No evidence of hypothetical child’s gender and/or current state of alive-ness.
Connections made by those who should know:
Ned connects 3KG with tower with Lya in bed of blood—context to be determined.
Ned remembers promises to Lya—multiple contexts, actual promises not delineated
Ned’s thinks R=not visited brothels. Thoughts not expansive. Significance to be determined.
General Belief of Connections (vs. Ned’s Specifics):
Robert thinks R stole and raped L—evidence for statement not given.
Cersei thinks “wolfgirl” needed/wanted by R. Kevan thinks similar—evidence for statement not given.
Barristan thinks R loved his Lady L—evidence for statement not given.
Viserys believes R loved L; Dany believes it—evidence for statement not given.
Symbols Clearly Defined (roses and Lyanna): Rose Crown—R puts in L’s lap; Ned dreams of its thorns cutting him.
Ned remembers Lya’s loving the scent of roses
Ned’s dream of sky streaked with blood and roses
Ned remembers Lya’s dying in room smelling of blood and roses
Story of Bael the Bard—blue rose of Winterfell—tie to stolen Stark maiden
Theon’s dream of Lya with rose crown and gore-spattered gown
Blue rose at Wall filling air with sweetness—implies something at Wall is connected to Lya, to her death. Something she loved (like she loved the scent of roses).
Suggestive Imagery (though not clearly tied to specific meanings)
Jon’s fire dreams: associated with Targ “Fire and Blood.” Not exclusive to Targs—also R’hllor.Plus, fire exists all over—not as specific as blue roses.
Jon’s dragon dreams—not defined as exclusive in a world with dragon stories and history of dragons (and a few current dragons). Not as specific as blue roses.
Jon dreams of fiery sword—implies tie to AA myth. Not exclusive to Jon. Beric, Thoros, and Stannis have flaming swords (of varying “authenticity,” but no less extant)
Interesting but Unclear Associations
Dany’s vision of blue rose in wall of ice—implied tie to Jon (see above)—tie to Dany? Unclear.
Dany in House of Undying—sees Rhaegar speak of PtwP and dragon having 3 heads then “looks” at Dany. Tie to Lya and/or Jon? Unstated.
“It was said” that Rhaegar called the watchtower the tower of joy—source or context for statement—unknown. Source or context when Ned heard this—unknown. Ned associates this with memory of 3KG at tower—reasons unclear.
“Knight of Laughing Tree” story: if Lyanna was the Knight, and if Rhaegar (and guard) found out, might have been a meeting point prior to giving rose crown. That’s a lot of ifs.