I dont have any lists of evidence to back me up here but just in general i think if Rhaegar is NOT Jons father then that is shitty writing and GRRM is an asshole for misleading us that much. So in short Rhaegar is Jons father. DUH. ( if we find out differently you can quote this and throw it in my face)
I mean we have the 1st fake out ( ned is jons pops) then to throw a 2nd fake out in Rhaegar its just too much and honestly in my opinion stupid if you are trying to write a story that people can follow. Try and think outside of the world of westeros and think about it as someone trying to write the story this is GRRM not M Night Shyamalan with all his stupid twists... maybe Jons been dead all along
You can't even slightly compare finding out Ned is not Jon's dad to finding out Rhaegar is not Jon's dad.
There is no suggestion in text by an actual character that Rhaegar is Jon's father. So it wouldn't be a fake out, because it was never set up. It's a reader theory that has surprisingly little evidence in it's favour (no more than any other father-theory).
No one in the books ever considers anyone but Ned to be the father. Therefore any twist on that front would be the first twist.
I dont have any lists of evidence to back me up here but just in general i think if Rhaegar is NOT Jons father then that is shitty writing and GRRM is an asshole for misleading us that much. So in short Rhaegar is Jons father. DUH. ( if we find out differently you can quote this and throw it in my face)
I mean we have the 1st fake out ( ned is jons pops) then to throw a 2nd fake out in Rhaegar its just too much and honestly in my opinion stupid if you are trying to write a story that people can follow. Try and think outside of the world of westeros and think about it as someone trying to write the story this is GRRM not M Night Shyamalan with all his stupid twists... maybe Jons been dead all along
You can't even slightly compare finding out Ned is not Jon's dad to finding out Rhaegar is not Jon's dad.
There is no suggestion in text by an actual character that Rhaegar is Jon's father. So it wouldn't be a fake out, because it was never set up. It's a reader theory that has surprisingly little evidence in it's favour (no more than any other father-theory).
No one in the books ever considers anyone but Ned to be the father. Therefore any twist on that front would be the first twist.
"And the triarch Belicho defeated the great hawk from the sea despite his sails not being fully inflated"
Post by serwalterpuffsalot on Aug 4, 2015 20:16:34 GMT
obviously only an opinion but i felt like i was led in the direction of RLJ so in my opinion Ned was the 1st and only fake out ..... Mario Bros 2 i wanna say ended up it was all a dream and stupid princess was never in danger. And Lysa killing Jon Arryn for me was way out of left field, you know from Cat chapters she wasnt in love and forced on Arryn as the cost for the Tully swords, and we know she was prego before she was with him but it doesnt give us any clue that she was the one who killed him
"And the triarch Belicho defeated the great hawk from the sea despite his sails not being fully inflated"
Can't help but notice how it's visions, dreams, and stories that are some of the "biggest" purported clues to RLJ.
- Ned's TOJ dream - Dany's vision of Rhaegar saying the dragon has 3 heads and that there must be one more - Dany's vision of Rhaegar dying at the Trident - Dany's vision of a blue flower growing from a wall of ice - Bran's vision of Ned asking for two people to grow up close as brothers - Jon's crypt dreams - Jon's dreams of his mother being highborn - Lyanna sniffling at Rhaegar's song - Lyanna possibly being the KOTLT who Rhaegar was sent to find etc.
AKA not real events. To me, it seems a little strange to be taking all these as evidence for something having actually happened. Because as I saw the most recent post in RLJ on Westoros which was discussing the vision of Rhaegar and the three heads, it kind of struck me that once you take away all these things and the other stuff like it as proof, there's kind of a lack of real life evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna had baby Jon.
For instance, Rhaegar before the Trident in Jaime's memory of him, shows no concern for Lyanna at all, let alone ever mentions her. He's concerned about what Aerys will do, that Tywin might rebel, and that Robert already has, and that he should have done something sooner but never did. Nothing about Lyanna.
Now that's not to say that none of these events never happened. But there's no real proof that these things ever occurred as they're presented if they did, because they're not memories. They're as unreliable as can possibly be as they're not real. So the likelihood that the details are true/as presented is extremely unlikely. For example of an unreliable vision, Dany's vision of Aerys ordering the burning of King's Landing in the HOTU got a number of things wrong
- She sees an old man. Aerys was 39 when he died. There's an SSM where GRRM supposedly told an artist to draw Aerys older than he should be as he'd prematurely aged, but that's not adding 30 years to the man. That's like making him look like he's 50. - She sees that Aerys has grey hair. Jaime tells us that Aerys had silver gold hair that was matted and unwashed - She sees that Aerys has dark eyes. We have no idea what colour eyes that Aerys had, but they should be purple. Dany only calls them dark - She sees Aerys say "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat. Let him be the king of ashes." Whereas Jaime says that Aerys said "The traitors want my city, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat."
So as we can see having examined one vision vs it's real life counterpart, there's a fairly worrying amount of mistakes. And that vision of Dany's happens to have come from the HOTU visions which is where 3 of the visions used to support RLJ from my above list comes from. So if this 1 vision has at least 4 mistakes compared to what actually happened, who's to say that those 3 visions in the list don't suffer from the exact same problem? And off the top of my head I can think of quite a few problems for all 3 that don't actually fit with real life.
That's not to say that none of those things weren't put in the books for a reason. But it seems clear to me that there not actually supposed to represent something as true. They're literary devices for the reader, but they're not something real. Rhaegar and Lyanna having a son named Jon however would be a real event. So to use evidence of something that never happened or never happened that way to prove something that actually must have happened seems extremely odd to me. It could be trying to point to RLJ but for instance I'm not going to take a vision of Rhaegar and Elia with newborn baby Aegon where Rhaegar says there must be one more as proof of RLJ, when in real life we know that Aegon's birth nearly killed Elia and the birth of Rhaenys had left her bedridden for 6 months. Elia would not have been fine the way she is in this vision. There's something known to be wrong here so hard to accept the evidence as truly evidence. Why must this one piece be real?
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Can't help but notice how it's visions, dreams, and stories that are some of the "biggest" purported clues to RLJ.
- Ned's TOJ dream - Dany's vision of Rhaegar saying the dragon has 3 heads and that there must be one more - Dany's vision of Rhaegar dying at the Trident - Dany's vision of a blue flower growing from a wall of ice - Bran's vision of Ned asking for two people to grow up close as brothers - Jon's crypt dreams - Jon's dreams of his mother being highborn - Lyanna sniffling at Rhaegar's song - Lyanna possibly being the KOTLT who Rhaegar was sent to find etc.
AKA not real events. To me, it seems a little strange to be taking all these as evidence for something having actually happened. Because as I saw the most recent post in RLJ on Westoros which was discussing the vision of Rhaegar and the three heads, it kind of struck me that once you take away all these things and the other stuff like it as proof, there's kind of a lack of real life evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna had baby Jon.
For instance, Rhaegar before the Trident in Jaime's memory of him, shows no concern for Lyanna at all, let alone ever mentions her. He's concerned about about Aerys will do, that Tywin might rebel, and that Robert already has, and that he should have done something sooner but never did. Nothing about Lyanna.
Now that's not to say that none of these events never happened. But there's no real proof that these things ever occurred as they're presented if they did, because they're not memories. They're as unreliable as can possibly be as they're not real. So the likelihood that the details are true/as presented is extremely unlikely. For example of an unreliable vision, Dany's vision of Aerys ordering the Sack in the HOTU got a number of things wrong
- She sees an old man. Aerys was 39 when he died. There's an SSM where GRRM supposedly told an artist to draw Aerys older than he should be as he'd prematurely aged, but that's not adding 30 years to the man. That's like making him look like he's 50. - She sees that Aerys has grey hair. Jaime tells us that Aerys had silver gold hair that was matted and unwashed - She sees that Aerys has dark eyes. We have no idea what colour eyes that Aerys had, but they should be purple. Dany only calls them dark - She sees Aerys say "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat. Let him be the king of ashes." Whereas Jaime says that Aerys said "The traitors want my city, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat."
So as we can see having examined one vision vs it's real life counterpart, there's a fairly worrying amount of mistakes. And that vision of Dany's happens to have come from the HOTU visions which is where 3 of the visions used to support RLJ from my above list comes from. So if this 1 vision has at least 4 mistakes compared to what actually happened, who's to say that those 3 visions in the list don't suffer from the exact same problem? And off the top of my head I can think of quite a few problems for all 3 that don't actually fit with real life.
That's not to say that none of those things weren't put in the books for a reason. But it seems clear to me that there not actually supposed to represent something as true. They're literary devices for the reader, but they're not something real. Rhaegar and Lyanna having a son named Jon however would be a real event. So to use evidence of something that never happened or never happened that way to prove something that actually must have happened seems extremely odd to me. It could be trying to point to RLJ but for instance I'm not going to take a vision of Rhaegar and Elia with newborn baby Aegon where Rhaegar says there must be one more as proof of RLJ, when in real life we know that Aegon's birth nearly killed Elia and the birth of Rhaenys had left her bedridden for 6 months. Elia would not have been fine the way she is in this vision. There's something known to be wrong here so hard to accept the evidence as truly evidence. Why must this one piece be real?
This is very interesting. I would love to hear your thoughts on the other visions and possible mistakes in them.
Its funny that for something that's suppose to be subtle its hard to miss the arguements that everyone in Westeros believes Rhaegar chose Lyanna and thus ran off with her. Throught this entire series GRRM has been playing with perception.What people see isn't usually what is and this is the case in verse and out.
Mark you are right in pointing out that there's a serious problem in trusting visions as 100% the case,especially seeing as there are clear inaccuracies.What do we have for Rhaegar and Lyanna in truth now.This is the arguement.
Rhaegar read something in some scrolls that leads him to believe he's TPTWP he changed his mind and thought it was Aegon whose song is ice and fire......End scene
Somehow that got translated for some into Rhaegar thinking he needed to have a an 'ice' baby and so apparently when he saw Lyanna for the first time at the tourney never having spoken to her a light bulb went off in his head and ding ding.
The were in love because he sang a song and Lyanna sniffled and a year later they ran off together.
He was supposedly an archetype foe Bael so it obvious him and Lyanna knock boots.Its all Arthurian inspired so there we have it. Do i have it down?
"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"
I do think that Lyanna and Rhaegar have a connection, though. Why would everyone think he kidnapped her? I don't know what the motives were, but something transpired there, whether or not there was a romance.
My main issue with Dany's vision is that she has a distorted sense/idea of her family, anyway. And herself. She's usually wrong. If she believes Rhaegar loved Lyanna, my guess is that she's wrong about that, too.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
This is very interesting. I would love to hear your thoughts on the other visions and possible mistakes in them.
Vision #1 Rhaegar and Elia with newborn Aegon
The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac.
We have zero reference to Rhaegar's height or eye colour beyond this... so no idea whether he was indeed taller than Viserys and had a different eye colour.
“Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
- Jon Connington says that Rhaenys' birth caused Elia to be bedridden for 6 months and that Aegon's birth nearly killed her. Here she is though nursing a newborn Aegon and talking to Rhaegar as though nothing's wrong when she just almost died - The overall tone of the vision. Barristan says Rhaegar and Elia married for duty but this seems like a cute loving family
Vision #2 Rhaegar dying at the Trident
Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name
- Robert says he watched Rhaegar die and never mentions having seen or heard him say anything - Jorah Mormont says he was close enough to Robert and Rhaegar’s fight to see their blood trickling into the stream but he never says he heard or saw anything - Not one person who attempted to get Rhaegar’s rubies says that Rhaegar died saying Lyanna’s name (we don’t know anybody who personally did, but there’s songs of the fight and legends of the ruby ford but no Rhaegar dying saying Lyanna) - Dany heard the name as she says that it was a woman’s name, AKA not Billy or Joffrey which are boy’s names, but doesn’t say it was Lyanna despite knowing the name Lyanna, that Lyanna is a girl’s name, and that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a history - Robert crushed in Rhaegar’s chest with a warhammer so Rhaegar wouldn’t have been able to say anything as he wouldn't have had functioning lungs anymore - Rhaegar is dismounted in the stream yet he and Robert fought on horseback and GRRM has gone so far as to comment that artist always get that wrong by depicting them fighting on foot. AKA Rhaegar was never on his feet during the battle - The vision starts immediately after Robert hit Rhaegar (rubies are flying) but there’s no hammer in the vision despite the fact that Robert says he impaled Rhaegar through the heart with the spike of his warhammer. AKA Robert’s warhammer should be lodged in Rhaegar heart at this moment - There are no other combatants despite Ned and Jorah both saying they were there or nearby, that the fighting was going on all around Robert and Rhaegar, and that Robert himself is missing
Vision #3 The blue rose in the wall of ice
A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness
- a blue flower implies a blue winter rose which so far have only been known to grow in Winterfell. Not the Wall - winter roses only grow during winter and winter had not yet started in ACOK. So the only possibly solution is that it's a vision of the future or past and not something that's currently occurring as it's currently summer in ACOK - The Wall is made of ice. How is the flower surviving without soil? - if the blue flower represents Jon then why is the flower filling the air with sweetness while Jon is pissing everybody off at the Wall? - if the blue flower represents a person then that person has not yet arrived at the Wall as as mentioned above winter roses only bloom in winter and this flower is in bloom. Jon joined the Watch in summer so he's been there since before the flower. - if the blue flower represents a person it represents a woman as the Bael the Bard story is about leaving a winter rose as payment for a Stark daughter
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Another mistake: Rhaego with copper skin and blonde hair. We know that didn't happen.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
I do think that Lyanna and Rhaegar have a connection, though. Why would everyone think he kidnapped her? I don't know what the motives were, but something transpired there, whether or not there was a romance.
My main issue with Dany's vision is that she has a distorted sense/idea of her family, anyway. And herself. She's usually wrong. If she believes Aerys loved Lyanna, my guess is that she's wrong about that, too.
Yeah--that's one of the reasons I can't let go of RLJ just yet. It's on page that they disappeared together and no one disputes it. The people who could dispute it are dead or missing, but still. . .
And I like the idea about Dany's visions. Martin warns us repeatedly to be wary of prophecy. Visions seem awfully close. Rhaegar does seem to have believed in a prophecy. Does that make him crazy enough to run off with Lyanna? Can't see anywhere we see him as crazy. Stupid via the crown. But mad? Can't see it, no matter what the vision says. Not yet.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Its funny that for something that's suppose to be subtle its hard to miss the arguements that everyone in Westeros believes Rhaegar chose Lyanna and thus ran off with her.
Guy and girl go missing Guy and girl supposedly have sex hundreds of times Guy returns home after probably 7 months, but up to almost a year later Brother finds girl over one year after she goes missing and she's dying Girl extracts promise from brother Brother goes home and sets up about providing for a newborn baby bastard Brother refuses to talk about the mother of his bastard
I don't get what's supposed to be subtle about this
Strip away the gold and the ornaments, knock down the statues and the pillars, and this what remains
The real life connections between the two are shockingly small. Everything's stories, visions, and dreams. AKA no proof of being real. They're in the books for a reason but the actual factual things are far outweighed by the non factual evidence.
My main issue with Dany's vision is that she has a distorted sense/idea of her family, anyway.
I'm glad you brought that up because because I've long thought that Dany influenced the visions. For instance we know that Dany believes Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and more importantly that he fought Robert at the Trident for Lyanna's hand. What does she see? Rhaegar dying saying Lyanna's name he Robert defeated him. As Arya says
Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love
It's enough to make you gag at how romantic it is. Beyond what's wrong with the vision which I've pointed out above, when Rhaegar just got walloped so hard by a massive warhammer that he flew off his horse into a river, with a crushed chest, and a hole through his heart, is he really going to be thinking about Lyanna in that moment? Or anybody? The man's dead before he hits the water most like.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Yeah--that's one of the reasons I can't let go of RLJ just yet. It's on page that they disappeared together and no one disputes it. The people who could dispute it are dead or missing, but still. . .
And I like the idea about Dany's visions. Martin warns us repeatedly to be wary of prophecy. Visions seem awfully close. Rhaegar does seem to have believed in a prophecy. Does that make him crazy enough to run off with Lyanna? Can't see anywhere we see him as crazy. Stupid via the crown. But mad? Can't see it, no matter what the vision says. Not yet.
Hope I haven't given the impression that it matters to me who you or anyone thinks are Jon's parents, it really isn't the part of the story that I'm most concerned about. I'd rather learn about The Land of Always Winter, The Great Other, and the Faceless Men agenda at the Citadel.
i don't know if Rhaegar was crazy or not, and I didn't ponder it until you brought it up just now, but there seems to be a streak of madness that runs through the Targ family, so it actually wouldn't surprise me too much if we find out he was a little mad- or obsessed, maybe, at fulfilling his prophecy.
“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.” ― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones
Something else to consider. RLJ means R+L=J. The evidence can't just be related to tying Rhaegar and Lyanna together, it has to tie them to creating Jon. But at least a lot of the evidence seems to be more about R+L=X, where the evidence just points to them having had a kid, or that Ned =/= Jon's father. Which really aren't the same things as RLJ.
For instance, the 1993 letter that GRRM sent out says that Arya and Jon will be tormented by love until something is revealed about Jon's parentage, which presumably no longer makes them half-siblings and lets them bang without it being weird. But that's not evidence of RLJ. That's just evidence of Ned not being Jon's father. There's nothing linking it to Rhaegar and Lyanna.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Another mistake: Rhaego with copper skin and blonde hair. We know that didn't happen.
I was just really talking about the visions used to support RLJ, but yes that never happened as Rhaego died.
I'm going to look over all the visions in the HOTU though and post all the mistakes I can find in the HOTU thread at some point when I get around to it
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Its funny that for something that's suppose to be subtle its hard to miss the arguements that everyone in Westeros believes Rhaegar chose Lyanna and thus ran off with her.
Guy and girl go missing Guy and girl supposedly have sex hundreds of times Guy returns home after probably 7 months, but up to almost a year later Brother finds girl over one year after she goes missing and she's dying Girl extracts promise from brother Brother goes home and sets up about providing for a newborn baby bastard Brother refuses to talk about the mother of his bastard
I don't get what's supposed to be subtle about this
Strip away the gold and the ornaments, knock down the statues and the pillars, and this what remains
The real life connections between the two are shockingly small. Everything's stories, visions, and dreams. AKA no proof of being real. They're in the books for a reason but the actual factual things are far outweighed by the non factual evidence.
My main issue with Dany's vision is that she has a distorted sense/idea of her family, anyway.
I'm glad you brought that up because because I've long thought that Dany influenced the visions. For instance we know that Dany believes Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and more importantly that he fought Robert at the Trident for Lyanna's hand. What does she see? Rhaegar dying saying Lyanna's name he Robert defeated him. As Arya says
Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love
It's enough to make you gag at how romantic it is. Beyond what's wrong with the vision which I've pointed out above, when Rhaegar just got walloped so hard by a massive warhammer that he flew off his horse into a river, with a crushed chest, and a hole through his heart, is he really going to be thinking about Lyanna in that moment? Or anybody? The man's dead before he hits the water most like.
It would be very interesting if Dany herself influenced the visions that she saw and plus she took shade of the evening, I think it could be a type of hallucinogen. Maybe she wasn't hallucinating everything but her perception with the shade of the evening helped change how she saw things/heard things. I also think some of the visions were ones she wanted to see and that influenced it. If my older brother kidnapped a 14 year old girl, started a war, ended up dying, helped to lose the throne and power that my family had and the death of my family members I would try to hope that he did love the girl he "kidnapped", you know? Otherwise it would be like hey my brother screwed all this up and he didn't even love her he was just raping her trying to fulfill some prophesy to produce another child. Her perception could have influenced the visions and the visions could have been partially what she wanted to see NOT what actually happened.