Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Well I would certainly hope so after that display.
whitewolfstark, I agree on Tyrion. He is good but not nearly as good as he thinks he is. Not nearly as good as Varys or Baelish. I like to use the analogy that Baelish and Varys were playing a game of chess at the table. Meanwhile Cersei and Tyrion are playing checkers on the floor.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Overall while Tyrion gets more credit than he's likely earned, he's someone the actual manipulators feel they can flatter by saying he's better at ruling than he actually is, and then put in a position of power and know that they can manipulate him to do what they want as Varys manipulated him rather easily the entire time in King's Landing, which is why IMO book Varys took him at all, because to Varys he didn't see him as a threat of any kind, but a puppet he could use without Tyrion realizing he was being used.
Wow, I don't think I've ever heard such a frank assessment of Tyrion before. Very intriguing! Has GRRM been misleading us into thinking he is more than he truly is?? I must say, I have serious issues with his behavior toward women in ADWD; he is not really a good guy, and it's interesting that you are also questioning his credentials/abilities. I will have to re-read some of his chapters and get a better feel for it; I must admit I always read his POVs with the assumption of him as he views himself. Which, however, may not be accurate.... I love it, it's very different!!
It's made most obvious with how and why Varys takes him, but it becomes evidently more obvious in the whole business about Shae.
May 19, 2016 21:40:29 GMT -4 Maester Sam said:
May 19, 2016 13:59:34 GMT -4 whitewolfstark said: And in King's Landing, I think Tyrion is as much to blame for the riot in King's Landing as either Joffrey or Cersei--as Tyrion at one point got sick and tired of dealing with starving peasants and simply sent them to Joffrey to play with.
I must have totally missed this. Did he really do that??? Wow. It may be time for a Tyrion re-read.
It's a very off hand reference that I missed the first time, but given I lost my place in that chapter a few times (reading on trains), I reread a paragraph a few times and then it struck me. Though, don't feel too bad, unlike show Joffrey, book Joffrey is not skilled with a crossbow. There's a scene where Joffrey is trying to kill some hares, only for the hares to nibble rather calmly as Joffrey consistently misses.
Of course, that just could all be bad writing and show continuity. As so often seems to be the case right now.
PJ's review was a really good one, given that he managed to make it quite funny too. But I have the same feeling regarding the show, I cannot think seriously on many of these issues, since I am not sure they are intentional.
whitewolfstark, I agree on Tyrion. He is good but not nearly as good as he thinks he is. Not nearly as good as Varys or Baelish. I like to use the analogy that Baelish and Varys were playing a game of chess at the table. Meanwhile Cersei and Tyrion are playing checkers on the floor.
While I agree with you to some degree, the fact that they've had a long time to set up makes the game of here and now really unfair. Also, both of them (at least at the beginning of story) have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Maintenance of class and riches is very resource consuming whereas pushing for anarchy is not. They do not have to take care of anyone else, nobody is watching them, nobody expects anything of them. Varys literally goes into hiding after death of Tywin (so while he can take advantage of his spy network, he has effectively lost his political status for now). LF has just become an openly major player. How he moves from here reflects more on his abilities than all the before combined. Do you think differently?
In the end, I think Tywin was bluntly honest and right about Tyrion, Tyrion just hasn't wanted to admit it to himself because of previous Daddy issues, and being surrounded by others who see to take advantage of him
I agree with how Tywin's assessment of his children is rather accurate, but I also cannot help wondering if he is not setting them up for failure. He gives Tyrion the command of the city, but doesn't actually provide him with real power be it money, credibility, army, or even food. He specifically makes Tyrion and Cersei be opposite each other too while having Joffrey as a loose canon. I am not assuming ruling is easy, but the way Varys, LF, and Tywin have ruled so far(not keeping to accepted laws of war, human decency, or honor while neglecting basic maintenance of their land) cannot result in long ruling at all. Tywin died before the war was truly over, LF is in Vale that is not affected by war yet, Varys is still not ruling. The war that they caused will come back to bite them especially with the coming winter.
It's a very off hand reference that I missed the first time, but given I lost my place in that chapter a few times (reading on trains), I reread a paragraph a few times and then it struck me. Though, don't feel too bad, unlike show Joffrey, book Joffrey is not skilled with a crossbow. There's a scene where Joffrey is trying to kill some hares, only for the hares to nibble rather calmly as Joffrey consistently misses.
I seem to also remember him cutting kittens out of their mother though... Books or show, handing anyone over to Joffrey is practically murder. And to do so with starving smallfolk... yikes.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Well off the top of my head, like I said he gets distracted by Cersei. He focuses way too much on trying to foil her instead of actually ruling. And he rubs it in her face the whole time. He and Cersei don't like each other, but he's purposely antagonistic to her and it's a huge distraction.
Along that line too, Shae is a horrible distraction for him. Pretty much all his chapters feature him thinking about going to visit her, or actually visiting her, etc. She's a huge liability for him, and of course Varys figures her out quite quickly which gives him power over Tyrion, while on the other hand Cersei figures out that he has at least some whore, and because of where he stashed her another whore has to take what should've been Shae's fall. And obviously, he falls in love with her when he knew she was a whore, so he gets "betrayed" when she acts like the whore she is.
He also for some reason never reacts to Littlefinger's schemes, when he knows that Littlefinger had set him up with the dagger. Of course, I find that to be a bit more of a plot hole than anything, but still. The other thing too IMO is that Littlefinger gets away with taking all the credit for things Tyrion does. LF gets made Lord Paramount of the Trident and Lord of Harrenhal for winning over the Tyrells which helped save King's Landing, but it's Tyrion who proposed the idea and sent him out to go do that. LF really didn't do anything other than be the guy who showed up and said "wanna kick Stannis' ass and make your daughter queen?" to which of course the Tyrells said yes.
He does a poor job of containing Joffrey. Joffrey had already messed up with Ned, he shouldn't have been allowed to do anything, yet Joffrey gets to attack starving peasants, and fling men from catapults. Like this is just causing huge ill will.
He also makes a mockery of Aliser Thorne when he arrives, for the sole reason being that HE doesn't want to be the mockery in front of court. He doesn't take Thorne's request for aid and plea seriously, even though he himself has seen the Wall and felt "something" while there, and of course by delaying seeing Thorne he ensured that Thorne had no proof of his claims as the hand rotted. So he made Thorne, and the entire Watch, look like babbling fools when they needed aid most because he didn't want to be laughed at. Tyrion's actions that day most likely caused a ripple effect. The Night's Watch hadn't been in good standing for a long time, but here was a dwarf openly mocking them now, from the Iron Throne. How many of those men and ladies in court that day do you think are ever planning on sending people to the Wall after what Tyrion did? Probably none of them. Tyrion let Thorne take men from the dungeons sure, but he didn't have to ridicule him the way he did.
But his biggest failure IMO is the Blackwater. Sorry, but Tyrion utterly failed here. His chain was a nice idea to contain Cersei's plan to use wildfire (yes, Cersei came up with idea of wildfire, not Tyrion), but it did not stop Stannis' assault. He suffered horrible losses, but his navy kept right on charging through it, and some of the wrecked boats even created a bridge for him that allowed him to ferry troops over the river more easily. Stannis kicked the absolute shit out of him, and he did it in a few hours when Tyrion was supposed to be able to hold out for days or weeks. Tyrion fought valiantly, but it was nowhere near what was needed. If the Tyrells hadn't arrived, which yes he does deserve credit for sending for them, Stannis would have unquestionably sat the Iron Throne that very night. I don't know if anybody could've held the city better as Stannis' plan was excellent, but still. He was supposed to be withstanding a siege, and instead got routed in hours. He needed the Tyrells or he was toast.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Something else also occurred to me, from this last episode. He gave the slavers 7 years to abolish slavery. But before this, he made sure to remind them that Daenerys won't stay in Meereen forever. So by combining these two, is he really just asking them for a temporary peace so he can get Dany to Westeros, and basically telling them that in a few years they'll be free to do what they want- and they can continue slavery in the meantime- so they have nothing to lose? In other words- he could care less about slavery, he is on board with Varys' plan to get Dany to westeros. What happens to Slaver's Bay after they leave there is irrelevant.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
But his biggest failure IMO is the Blackwater. Sorry, but Tyrion utterly failed here. His chain was a nice idea to contain Cersei's plan to use wildfire (yes, Cersei came up with idea of wildfire, not Tyrion), but it did not stop Stannis' assault. He suffered horrible losses, but his navy kept right on charging through it, and some of the wrecked boats even created a bridge for him that allowed him to ferry troops over the river more easily. Stannis kicked the absolute shit out of him, and he did it in a few hours when Tyrion was supposed to be able to hold out for days or weeks. Tyrion fought valiantly, but it was nowhere near what was needed. If the Tyrells hadn't arrived, which yes he does deserve credit for sending for them, Stannis would have unquestionably sat the Iron Throne that very night. I don't know if anybody could've held the city better as Stannis' plan was excellent, but still. He was supposed to be withstanding a siege, and instead got routed in hours. He needed the Tyrells or he was toast.
I agree with everything else you said except this last point. The problem for the Lannisters in the Blackwater battle was that they didn't have an army (or rather, both their armies were away at war). At all. NO soldiers. Only the City Watch, made up mostly of cowards and turncloaks. They were never going to hold the city against Stannis, and Tyrion had no illusions about this at any point. Neither did Cersei, who had Ilyn Payne hang out with her and her guests so he could kill them when the city fell. KL isn't Winterfell; you can't hold it without a large force and even then, it's difficult if the attack comes from the sea.
Tyrion recognized this problem: the problem of the missing army. He did other stuff around the edges, like the chain/wildfire plan, but he knew he had to have an army. So he got one. He planned ahead, sent a capable envoy with a great offer, and managed to hold the city just long enough until his army arrived. Not only that, but he permanently secured an alliance with one of the most powerful houses in Westeros by arranging the Joffrey/Margaery marriage. All this while Tywin left his entire family undefended in the capital despite knowing an attack was imminent. IMO, Blackwater was Tyrion's best moment.
“In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger. All men must bow to him in the end, no matter if they worship the Seven or the Lord of Light, the Moon Mother or the Drowned God or the Great Shepherd. All mankind belongs to him... else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?”
Way ahead of you SW. I won't mention details in case there are children present. LOL
HA! You're imagination is more interesting than mine.
I see them at dinner, Brienne's talking about Renly, Tormund's bringing up bears, Sansa's doing her best to be polite, while Edd talks about his mother death flatulence.
And that's all before the waiter brings the main course.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.
Something else also occurred to me, from this last episode. He gave the slavers 7 years to abolish slavery. But before this, he made sure to remind them that Daenerys won't stay in Meereen forever. So by combining these two, is he really just asking them for a temporary peace so he can get Dany to Westeros, and basically telling them that in a few years they'll be free to do what they want- and they can continue slavery in the meantime- so they have nothing to lose? In other words- he could care less about slavery, he is on board with Varys' plan to get Dany to westeros. What happens to Slaver's Bay after they leave there is irrelevant.
Yes--he does have rather a conflict of interest--especially if he wants revenge on his family, though that hasn't been as well established as it is in the novels.
And, yes--it does sound like that's exactly what Tyrion is saying.
All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Oscar Wilde.