I figured Green Men were humans that learned magic from the Children of the Forest
me too! let me know what you think of my little story on the green men.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
This is probably also the case for Moat Cailin, the Castle Pyke, and even the First Keep of Winterfell. bravo for pointing out the passage about round tower design and the First Men, that's key. Storm's End, Pyke, and the First Keep are all round tower design, and therefore not built by First Men.
That drum towers are not build by FMs, prompted me to think that they would have been built later.
Looking at the history of Pyke and the Sea Stone chair, I am starting to re-think and that in fact it is a hint they could have just as well be built earlier.
So could have been the SE tower and the 7 legend just added by the Andals, without any justification of any rebuilt. As for the WF First Keep, what bothers me, is its poor state.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
This is probably also the case for Moat Cailin, the Castle Pyke, and even the First Keep of Winterfell. bravo for pointing out the passage about round tower design and the First Men, that's key. Storm's End, Pyke, and the First Keep are all round tower design, and therefore not built by First Men.
That drum towers are not build by FMs, prompted me to think that they would have been built later.
Looking at the history of Pyke and the Sea Stone chair, I am starting to re-think and that in fact it is a hint they could have just as well be built earlier.
So could have been the SE tower and the 7 legend just added by the Andals, without any justification of any rebuilt. As for the WF First Keep, what bothers me, is its poor state.
Poor state now perhaps... but, it HAS stood for 8,000 years. So it's still a feat of engineering.
I reread that scene at Moat Cailin, and it definitely said that that the huge blocks strewn about the bog are the ones which used to make up the curtain wall. So I think we safely say that cottage sized blocks were in fact cut and stacked up to form a huge wall at Moat Cailin.
As for the round tower thing, it's seems like a pretty straightforward intentional contradition by Martin. He's telling us the First Men didn't know how to build round towers, then showing us the very oldest castles which have round towers. The conclusion is obvious - there other people in Dawn Age Westeros besides what we think of as the First Men, or that some First Men did in fact posses advanced building capabilities beyond what we now believe them to have had. Most FM constructions are the simple ringforts that line up with the established ideas about FM being somewhat primitive, so if there were some that were more advanced, it must have been only a small group or tribe. It's likely this advanced building knowledge existed before the Long Night disaster but perhaps not after. The LN is of course a huge cultural bottleneck, so that makes sense.
Most FM constructions are the simple ringforts that line up with the established ideas about FM being somewhat primitive, so if there were some that were more advanced, it must have been only a small group or tribe. It's likely this advanced building knowledge existed before the Long Night disaster but perhaps not after. The LN is of course a huge cultural bottleneck, so that makes sense.
yes, i agree, i see it that way now too.
I have read Lucifer's Hammer recently and it does make you think just how near complete the LN devastation could have been, after all it took down the GED is essos. Massive broken comet chuncks, meteors, earthquakes, tsnunamis, volcano eruptions, glaciation and war between survivors is the picture painted in that book; and the sun was not hidden for years as - supposedly - during the LN which would have severely hampered the food chain. How many would have survived and where makes for an interesting research.
Just how much truth is in the songs and tales from the survivors?
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
And then we have Moat Cailin. The blocks of the castle are as big as a cottage, black basalt (not a lightweight stone). It's curtain wall is 50 feet high I believe - this is an engineering marvel here, stones this big, lifted and stacked that high. Well beyond First Men capabilities. It's building style matches that of Yeen, almost perfectly - huge square blocks of black stone. Been is specifically described as oily black stone, while there is one ambiguous Theon scene where Moat Cailin's black block appear coated in a fine black oil because of the rain - so it's a maybe as far as oily black stone. But the style is identical. Make what you will of that. In any case, it goes without saying that it was not built when the Neck was a swamp, because you definitely cannot get the leverage you need to stack blocks like that in a swamp. Ergo, Moat Cailin is pre-Long Night (meaning pre-Hammer), not built by First Men, and could be oily black stone. Lots of mysteries there. The thing I notice is that one version of the hammer of the waters tale has the greenseers calling down the hammer form the top of the children's tower. But the cot we know do no hang out in the tops of towers to work spells. That's distinctly un-children-like. But horned lords who built storm's end? I can see them building Moat Cailin and working dark magic from the tops of towers, certainly.
i have been trying to figure out the blocks at Moat Cailin a bit more and my current view is that they are of columnar basalt origin. There are many examples to be found on the internet such as Black Beach or Vik in Iceland, Fingal's cave in Scotland or the Organ Pipes in Namibia. Some are black basalt, some are huge.
A basalt block the size of a crofter's cottage can be estimated to be a bit heavier than the largest blocks in Giza. In this case, the blocks would have been ready made and require only large a mount of manpower to place them into a curtain wall. I suggest this manpower came from 'larger-than-FM' men (the horned lords you mention, for example) and traditional giants, the Egyptians have proven that it can be done (without giants).
How do these blocks land in the Neck? I believe the answer come from the ancient history of the Iron Islands. Volcanic islands do exhibit columnar basalt and tsunamis will carry very heavy objects very long distances. Columnar basalt is also found in the Mediterranean where the history of some islands make for a neat blueprint for the Iron Islands.
And you are right, the Moat Cailin wall was put up before the Neck turned into mush.
Question for you: why is the word 'iron' in the 'ironborns' and their islands? We know there is plenty of iron in the islands, so that satisfies this part of the question, but what of the people? I understand iron only turned up with the Andals hence the ironborn adopted this name after their conquest. If they had iron before, ie when reaving FM shores, it would have been noticed. Otherwise, iron was around before the FM, in the days of the dragonlords of the Battle Isles and the pre FM occupants of Westeros.
Anyway, i need to put my ideas on the Ironborns together.
Re-reading my notes on greasy and oily stones, i noticed that there are greasy stones which may shine and greasy stones which don't (Asshai - drinks light). I'd say they are different.
What about Azor Ahai in all of this? Of course, that is all yours!
All i can say is that if he lived in Westeros, he lived in a culture that must already have been influenced by the deeds of mighty gods before the LN, eg Moat Cailin.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
And then we have Moat Cailin. The blocks of the castle are as big as a cottage, black basalt (not a lightweight stone). It's curtain wall is 50 feet high I believe - this is an engineering marvel here, stones this big, lifted and stacked that high. Well beyond First Men capabilities. It's building style matches that of Yeen, almost perfectly - huge square blocks of black stone. Been is specifically described as oily black stone, while there is one ambiguous Theon scene where Moat Cailin's black block appear coated in a fine black oil because of the rain - so it's a maybe as far as oily black stone. But the style is identical. Make what you will of that. In any case, it goes without saying that it was not built when the Neck was a swamp, because you definitely cannot get the leverage you need to stack blocks like that in a swamp. Ergo, Moat Cailin is pre-Long Night (meaning pre-Hammer), not built by First Men, and could be oily black stone. Lots of mysteries there. The thing I notice is that one version of the hammer of the waters tale has the greenseers calling down the hammer form the top of the children's tower. But the cot we know do no hang out in the tops of towers to work spells. That's distinctly un-children-like. But horned lords who built storm's end? I can see them building Moat Cailin and working dark magic from the tops of towers, certainly.
i have been trying to figure out the blocks at Moat Cailin a bit more and my current view is that they are of columnar basalt origin. There are many examples to be found on the internet such as Black Beach or Vik in Iceland, Fingal's cave in Scotland or the Organ Pipes in Namibia. Some are black basalt, some are huge.
A basalt block the size of a crofter's cottage can be estimated to be a bit heavier than the largest blocks in Giza. In this case, the blocks would have been ready made and require only large a mount of manpower to place them into a curtain wall. I suggest this manpower came from 'larger-than-FM' men (the horned lords you mention, for example) and traditional giants, the Egyptians have proven that it can be done (without giants).
How do these blocks land in the Neck? I believe the answer come from the ancient history of the Iron Islands. Volcanic islands do exhibit columnar basalt and tsunamis will carry very heavy objects very long distances. Columnar basalt is also found in the Mediterranean where the history of some islands make for a neat blueprint for the Iron Islands.
And you are right, the Moat Cailin wall was put up before the Neck turned into mush.
Question for you: why is the word 'iron' in the 'ironborns' and their islands? We know there is plenty of iron in the islands, so that satisfies this part of the question, but what of the people? I understand iron only turned up with the Andals hence the ironborn adopted this name after their conquest. If they had iron before, ie when reaving FM shores, it would have been noticed. Otherwise, iron was around before the FM, in the days of the dragonlords of the Battle Isles and the pre FM occupants of Westeros.
Anyway, i need to put my ideas on the Ironborns together.
Re-reading my notes on greasy and oily stones, i noticed that there are greasy stones which may shine and greasy stones which don't (Asshai - drinks light). I'd say they are different.
What about Azor Ahai in all of this? Of course, that is all yours!
All i can say is that if he lived in Westeros, he lived in a culture that must already have been influenced by the deeds of mighty gods before the LN, eg Moat Cailin.
Here's some wild speculation for ya: what if the Iron Born were once thralls of the weirwood collective, and broke free (I.e. were "born") after the introduction of Andal iron, using it to fight and ward against those whom they fed with blood sacrifice. It's obviously going to take a lot of work to make this a convincing argument, but I think there are some hints toward something along those lines.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Aug 5, 2016 18:25:38 GMT
I believe the stories of Storm's End's construction and the early Storm Kings from the World Book may hint towards a change of allegiance for one of the old races. The carnivorous ravens and crows were likely smart enough to recognize mankind's proclivity for war as a bountiful new food supply, and thus began to favor men over the CotF.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
The carnivorous ravens and crows were likely smart enough to recognize mankind's proclivity for war as a bountiful new food supply, and thus began to favor men over the CotF.
i am not sure i follow your argument here but i can see the crows and ravens hanging around for more free food!
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Here's some wild speculation for ya: what if the Iron Born were once thralls of the weirwood collective, and broke free (I.e. were "born") after the introduction of Andal iron, using it to fight and ward against those whom they fed with blood sacrifice. It's obviously going to take a lot of work to make this a convincing argument, but I think there are some hints toward something along those lines.
I think the story of the ironborn is really centered about the drowned god, who was drowned and when and what happened before and after that. The wwd must be involved somehow (Nagga). As for the iron name, somehow it precedes the Andals, but how? perhaps through king Ironfoot.
I am not convinced about an association between children and blood sacrifice. I have not been able to find evidence when i have looked for it. One or two tales here and there though, worth looking into.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
The carnivorous ravens and crows were likely smart enough to recognize mankind's proclivity for war as a bountiful new food supply, and thus began to favor men over the CotF.
i am not sure i follow your argument here but i can see the crows and ravens hanging around for more free food!
In this case, the free food is the massive number of carcasses produced by the violent behavior of mankind. The fourth book of ASOIAF, which largely focuses on the aftermath of the War of the Five Kings, ain't called "A Feast for Crows" for no reason...lol. This idea was half in jest when in popped into my head, but I think it might actually have legs.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Here's some wild speculation for ya: what if the Iron Born were once thralls of the weirwood collective, and broke free (I.e. were "born") after the introduction of Andal iron, using it to fight and ward against those whom they fed with blood sacrifice. It's obviously going to take a lot of work to make this a convincing argument, but I think there are some hints toward something along those lines.
I think the story of the ironborn is really centered about the drowned god, who was drowned and when and what happened before and after that. The wwd must be involved somehow (Nagga). As for the iron name, somehow it precedes the Andals, but how? perhaps through king Ironfoot.
I am not convinced about an association between children and blood sacrifice. I have not been able to find evidence when i have looked for it. One or two tales here and there though, worth looking into.
I totally understand your not being convinced; it's a long shot at best.
A related idea inspired by Black Crow's musings: that the name "First Men" is more a label of status rather than ethnicity. Perhaps the Iron Born were second-class citizens, thralls to these First Men, who we can be fairly certain did commit blood sacrifice.
ETA: The histories of the Stormlands seem to be filled with tales of great huntsmen and warrior kings. Meanwhile the black birds have quite a taste for meat, but are not hunters themselves.
Last Edit: Aug 6, 2016 2:09:56 GMT by Dornish Neck Tie: Edited to add
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Perhaps the Iron Born were second-class citizens, thralls to these First Men, who we can be fairly certain did commit blood sacrifice.
or they were First Men, thralls (in the iron mines) of those who came before the FM and built those very long lasting structures that the FM would not have built.
"Arya did not dare take a bath, even though she smelled as bad as Yoren by now, all sour and stinky. Some of the creatures living in her clothes had come all the way from Flea Bottom with her; it didn’t seem right to drown them."
Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Aug 6, 2016 19:19:07 GMT
arrysfleas , really nice catch with the onions! That was something which struck me as well (currently re-reading ACoK), but I didn't manage to make any connections beyond seeing it as a pure oddity.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."