The year of False Spring, and other season related issues

1.A massively brutal battle,akin to "The hunt" took place where Robert kicked ass per Ned.The Melee.

That was the secondary and lesser combat. It's the champion of the tourney who is crowned, and who crowns a queen. That was Rhaegar.

2.Rhaegar produced a symbol (the lance on the crown) indicating it had happened.The Lance and crown of flowers is a reprsentation of a tree ( trunk part penis) and crow (vagina) being united.All of this symbolism has to work within the narrative of what's happening ofcourse.

Again, you're attempting to draw from external sources to prove what happened in the novel. This is one version of the ritual. There are countless others through tradition and fiction which vary. There is no reason to assume that GRRM was thinking of this in terms of sex having to take place before the crowning.

IN GRRM's version of the rite, the queen is not selected in advance. It is the right of the champion to pick -- and thus "claim" his queen. That's at odds with a form of the ritual based on a crowning post-sex.

3.Jon follows Robert in "that" direct archetypical path.On a whole he parallels Robert to a tee.

That's very subjective and I just don't agree. Jon's agonising over sex, general sobriety and tendency to try to resolve situations by talking rather than fighting if possible seem in stark (sorry!) contrast to Robert to me.

4.Horned god always.always impregnates the goddess.Why "that" the most important thing GRRM changes when everything else lines up.Seriously makes nosense and is a pointless excercise.

Yes, and I'm arguing that by crowning Lyanna, Rhaegar supplanted Robert's role as Horned King. I also believe that Rhaegar, not Robert, impregnated Lyanna. "Rhaegar won, damn him."

I think it important to recognize the "Mayday festival" its not a ritual as a modern reinvention and bastardization of an older ritual still practiced in some traditions ( mine included) but the "Mayday festivities" has trimmed alot,i mean a lot off of it.The grand rite and sacred marriage is older and virtually non existent in these "festivities".So we can go with the superficial interpretation which to me is incorrect because it ignores the context of Rhaegar's crowning and the symbolism which imo is also wrong.

In this context it's not important at all to recognise this, it's completely irrelevant. GRRM wrote a passage in a novel, inspired by a slew of varying ideas about a family of rituals that have accreted over millennia of ritual, folklore, comparative theology, and fiction. It needs only internal consistency, there is no basis to think it must follow one particular interpretation of that ritual, even if there was an undoubted "one true version".

The symbolism works in more than a single way. You have argued the case for your way the symbolism can work. I have suggested an alternative way for the symbolism can work, with Rhaegar supplanting Robert's role. The only way this can be sensibly disputed is to show an internal inconsistency; external inconsistencies (i.e "it doesn't work that way in the version of this ritual in xyz" are only relevant if you can show good evidence to suggest that GRRM felt it necessary to follow the pattern of xyz.

Furthermore Kingmonkey,what's the point of putting in such an elaborate ritual? ... There is no sense to pull in the Horned Lord and Goddess myth and not pulled the trigger if you are going with Rhaegar ran off /stole Lyanna from Robert.That's already what people in the story think.It is clearly what most readers believe so there's no reason for such a carefully positioned theme like that.It's pointless.

I'm saying that he DID pull the trigger, by supplanting Robert, and subsequently by running off with Lyanna.

As for the point, I don't think we should assume that any symbolism that GRRM puts in the books must necessarily change the narrative. That would be a rather bizarre approach to using symbolism. Rather it can change our understanding of the narrative. In this case, we're presented a key historical event in mythic terms, and it wouldn't be surprising if GRRM were to borrow his mythic symbolism, because using a familiar symbolic language is what renders the symbolism comprehensible to the audience.

Why present this event in mythic terms at all? I'd suggest GRRM does this to indicate that the event should not be seen simply as part of the profane history, but as part of a more obscure language of ritual, that he comes to again and again. As well as the overt story, there's an occult (in the original meaning of the word) narrative overlaying the story, where actions have magical consequence.

People have suggested that ASOIAF gets more concerned with magic as the series progresses, but I disagree. There have been hidden rituals in the story starting from the prologue of GoT. The hidden magical narrative simply comes closer to the surface as the series progresses.

We are told as a part of the overt narrative that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. The use of the mythic symbolism in the Harrenhal story places that event within the hidden magical narrative, as well. This thread started with a question about the false spring; this ritual ought to have heralded the summer, but instead winter returned. That simple fact alone should raise questions about the success of the ritual. If the ritual was fulfilled, why did it turn out to be a false spring?

Kingmonkey a tower is the most overt symbol representation a penis.Its also the oldest and more common than than a Lance and i think it is a direct connection of Jon and Robert.GRRM has put imagery in funny and profane from the most uncanny of sources .I find this one very apt.Now because you didn't make that connection doesn't make it less likely

That you did doesn't make it more likely, either.

Towers aren't even close to the oldest phallic symbols, that would probably be tree trunks. I think it's as safe bet that lances are far older phallic symbols than towers, seeing as they've existed about a quarter of a million years longer. However that's all besides the point. Of course the tower is an obvious and popular symbol, but sometimes a tower is just a cigar. In this case the description of the tower having "a lean to it like our noble king Robert after a long night’s drinking" does not really fit with the notion of the tower representing Robert's penis.

.....Oh yes the new arguement i'm hearing.I'm not directing this toward you but its frustrating the change in reasoning.One minute RLJ clues were so subtle only those astute readers could grasp it.Now it can't be to covert as to go over the heads of readers.

I think we both agree that some RLJ followers have presented things as evidence which are a huge stretch. I don't defend them. On the contrary, my RLJ essay specifically set out to remove that noise from the equation.

So you seem to think that something being "overt" somehow makes it more credible.

I never said that, but it would be silly to think that because GRRM does subtlety that means that anything moderately obvious must be wrong.

wolfmaid7
Jon Snow

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The year of False Spring, and other season related issues Jul 27, 2016 15:35:54 GMT

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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 27, 2016 15:35:54 GMT

That was the secondary and lesser combat. It's the champion of the tourney who is crowned, and who crowns a queen. That was Rhaegar.

I'm not disputing that,i'm saying the "melee" is an older and better reflection of " the hunt"/battle prior to claiming of the goddess.That's where that stems from."The Melee" was the battles of tournaments but there was too many casualties so that gave way to the more controlled tourneys with the "Jousting".GRRM used both old and new in the series.So while in the setting of that tournament setting it was "the lesser competition" but it was more an accurate representation of what happens and GRRM chose to use it and chose to have Ned tell us about it.

And adding to the above,was Rhaegar really the champion of the joust? Did he win that fair and square? Or did a few KGS take a dive so that he could win? Did he use a bit of hocus pocus to win?

Your actually doing that and no i'm not,its there in the books.Its not drawing from external sources its recognizing and element put there by the author and seeing how far it goes.What other versions? He is using "one version" because there is only one version.No matter the mordern spin,the cuts here,additions there "ALL" the versions have the horned god mating with the goddess....Rhaegar is not that, he never was.He hasn't been set up as that.His entire arch,personality,characteristic isn't crafted after that individual.He isn't apart of the theme and path that is still running through parallel to that arch.He has a role for sure but not mating with Lyanna.

You see Rhaegar winning the joust and crowning Lyanna as Rhaegar sliding in and taking the horned god role.I say no beacause that pagentry wrapped up in deception wasn't it.

Kingmonkey,according to your version she is picked beforehand.Isn't that the whole arguement presented with why the roses were winter roses? I just wanted to clarify that.

You miss my meaning but i'll get back to that in a sec.His experiances and choices presented parallel Robert's exactly,exactly.The difference is his choices were different because he had different influences and stronger hands to whip him into shape.Had he not been stopped by Sam and the others for instance his outlook was exactly what Robert was going to be,wanted to be but couldn't.Robert chose not to be a good steward in a lot of ways.Jon despite not liking his chose to take it serously because of Sam.

Now to the part that's not subjective:

“This is not Winterfell', he told him as he cut his meat with fork and dagger. ‘On the Wall, a man gets only what he earns. You're no ranger, Jon, only a green boy with the smell of summer still on you.”

“He would play the game to its conclusion. He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn,” the bird said, and, "King, “and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow.” That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.”

"Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him"

Following the archetype to a tee.I'll put in the horn associatons a bit later.

There is NO several versions Kingmonkey...There is only one version to this.Aspects of the ritual can vary but the end result is the same.Its not a matter of interpretation, that be the point.From the oldest to the diluted it happens one way the goddess and the horned god are the ones that join at the great rite.Nothing in the text,nothing in the character,nothing in the character path indicates that Rhaegar was transformed into "the" horned god.He isn't even in the mold.

You gave me an interpretation of how that could happen and even that interpretation isn't true to any of the versions...Not one.From old to diluted that has remained the same.All the elements of Robert has him rising as the horned god and consort to the goddess.Not supplemented by Rheagar because he "won" the jousting competition and crowned her.This also have to coincide with the clues that surface that indicate he had nothing to do with her disappearence.

People have suggested that ASOIAF gets more concerned with magic as the series progresses, but I disagree. There have been hidden rituals in the story starting from the prologue of GoT. The hidden magical narrative simply comes closer to the surface as the series progresses.

We are told as a part of the overt narrative that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. The use of the mythic symbolism in the Harrenhal story places that event within the hidden magical narrative, as well. This thread started with a question about the false spring; this ritual ought to have heralded the summer, but instead winter returned. That simple fact alone should raise questions about the success of the ritual. If the ritual was fulfilled, why did it turn out to be a false spring?

I disagree and agree with you.I think there are magical rituals starting from the prologue.The whole Stag athame in the shewolf's neck was a smack dab in the face.I also agree that there are other magical rituals ungoing and those are dependent on choices.One of the reasons why the Oak/Holly king myth is working so well because GRRM can play with certain outcomes with the characters he's pegged to play a certain role.

We are told by the overt narrative that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna,some of us recognize clues that he didn't.We exist in a story where characters 'say' crap to start crap they are the variables of chaos.I agree the abduction story is apart of the magical narrative...It sets up and places Rhaegar as the sacrifice or the Wicker man.

Yes in real life Beltane is "the last" of the spring ritual.However,everything in context the Winter was broken to give way to a spring...That is the important part.The spring wasn't really false.In life it marks a point for the god and goddess they have reached a point where they are ready to mate.Winter broke because they were ready.

So the anomally wasn't winter,the anomally was spring.We were still in the previous cycle Robert was still rising.

I'm not saying it more likely i think,i'm saying its just as likely to happen.Well obviously tree trunks yes but lances ahhh i get the sense you are speaking of the spear.I dsagree and agree with that....Later on,much later on yes it is.But it was created as a tool of hunting and war not represent a dick.

Because of the worshiping of the penis that hs existed since the stone age .Many ancient towers like the Obelisk in Egypt was created with the penis in mind.They were created to represent that.That was the initial connection."My cock "creates" life " yada yada yada.

Oh i know,i was saying on another thread how much i appreciated how much you removed the noise.Don't get me wrong you have significantly,condenced it to the poinht where you can look and the legs and analyze them.

Hence,my intial critique of what i always knew.Its very obvious or should i say its obvious to those that grew up on certain stories.GRRM could certainly stay with that in its beauty or go GRIMM fairy tale on us.However,IMO he is a master of the unreliable narrator,playing on perception and internal reader bias.

The mind jumps out at those familar patterns and then the more subtle ones begin to seep through and the story changes shape and direction.

I think and it is an opnion that from the first chapter were were presented with the truth and a red herring in the form of a fairy tale/GRIMM fairy tale depending on what you think of it and a more interesting story.

I never said that, but it would be silly to think that because GRRM does subtlety that means that anything moderately obvious must be wrong.

Thanks for the clarification.True something obvious doesn't mean that its wrong,but GRRM has by his actions via interviews,the test question he gave D&D and avoidance on this issue made Jon's parentage a secret.We all agree on that and i for one don't think that mystery can be undone by simple math and playing magical hats between 3KGS and Rhaegar.Which in itself for practical reasons have all soughts of problem.

In the end it comes down to who recognizes the real clues and its something i've always said.What i think of as clues and what you think of as clues can be different.Only GRRM can answer that.

Last Edit: Jul 27, 2016 19:12:19 GMT by wolfmaid7

"The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes"--Sherlock Holmes"

SlyWren
Silverwing

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I sing of Olaf, glad and big, whose warmest heart recoiled at war.

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The year of False Spring, and other season related issues Aug 7, 2016 20:39:24 GMT sagenadia and shizett like this

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Post by SlyWren on Aug 7, 2016 20:39:24 GMT

shizett--I'm still playing catch-up and somehow missed this. My apologies.

Oh, I really hope so. This is my third degree, it seems like whenever I finish and go to work, I become so bored that I have to go back to school. It feels like an eternal hell.

A frozen hell reserved for smarts?

Sorry--I'm surrounded by small children. Puns will ensue.

Yes, it is over simplifying, but then why do we have Long Night and Uneneding Summer? How are they the opposite of each other?

Sorry--I meant that I was oversimplifying your argument, not accusing you of doing so.

And I agree--I like the idea that they are mixed together. With the poles/extremes occasionally getting pushed to the extremes?

Hmm, interesting point. Specially if they have a suspicion that northern skinchangers can take control of the dragons.
For long, I was waiting for Sansa to somehow snap due to lack of Lady (something like Targ madness) but it did not really happen. So, while Targs seems to be less functional without their dragons, SC and wargs seem to be doing fine.

I agree that wargs function even without their animals--though Sansa seemed rather broken and disjointed from her family after losing Lady.

I do think, though, that she latched onto other things--the Hound and now Sweetrobin--she's got her own little bird that she has an uncanny influence over, rather like the Hound. Like Lady was more gentle, same with the Hound and Sweetrobin. As though Sansa keeps influencing things as she innately influenced Lady.

But the idea that the Targs could fear the take-over of wargs. . . that could work. I'm also thinking they might fear the competition, too.

Aug 7, 2016 16:12:47 GMT wolfmaid7 said:

Oh Dany is definetly a skinchanger,no she doesn't actively wear his skin but when she dreams she either sees herself as her brother or as a dragon.Not to mention is we look at what a skinchanger is per the definition provided by the WB it is a person who can meld their spirit with another.So she qualifies.

Somewhat--but she never dreams of herself as ACTUALLY in Drogon or in Rhaegar. So, there seems to be rather a difference. So far, at least.