Post by Dornish Neck Tie on Aug 1, 2016 15:29:30 GMT
Here's some wild speculation about Mance's red silk cloak from Asshai: Mance Rayder's story about why he left the Night's Watch was not quite a literal account. Why? I don't know. Maybe he didn't trust Jon Snow or something. It's merely wild speculation at the moment.
And then there's this line: "You cannot fight the dead, Jon Snow. No man knows that half so well as me."
I think Mance was killed by the Others and resurrected by a red priestess, who gifted him a red silk cloak from Asshai. I don't know that Mance has undergone a full religious conversion; it seems more likely that he has been recruited as an ally of Light in the "War for the Dawn." He returns to the Watch where his appeals either fall on deaf ears or he is rejected for some reason related to his death and resurrection. So, Manced resolves to leave the Night's Watch and attempt to unite the Free Folk. From what we've seen with Beric, Lady Stoneheart, and a certain TV show character, being "chosen" for resurrection is a pretty darn effective way of attracting followers.
Has this idea been discussed before? It seems clear that most fans find Mance's origins to be a bit fishy, and where there's smoke there's fire, but the popular secret identity theories are all a bit too silly.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Here's some wild speculation about Mance's red silk cloak from Asshai: Mance Rayder's story about why he left the Night's Watch was not quite a literal account. Why? I don't know. Maybe he didn't trust Jon Snow or something. It's merely wild speculation at the moment.
And then there's this line: "You cannot fight the dead, Jon Snow. No man knows that half so well as me."
I think Mance was killed by the Others and resurrected by a red priestess, who gifted him a red silk cloak from Asshai. I don't know that Mance has undergone a full religious conversion; it seems more likely that he has been recruited as an ally of Light in the "War for the Dawn." He returns to the Watch where his appeals either fall on deaf ears or he is rejected for some reason related to his death and resurrection. So, Manced resolves to leave the Night's Watch and attempt to unite the Free Folk. From what we've seen with Beric, Lady Stoneheart, and a certain TV show character, being "chosen" for resurrection is a pretty darn effective way of attracting followers.
Has this idea been discussed before? It seems clear that most fans find Mance's origins to be a bit fishy, and where there's smoke there's fire, but the popular secret identity theories are all a bit too silly.
Interesting notion but I doubt it. I am pretty sure the quote refers to the constant hounding that the Others have been doing to the Wildlings for years. Also Mance doesn't really like Mel, one would think he'd be slightly more friendly if a Red Priest or Priestess had saved his life.
My current admittedly crackpot theory is that he is a descendant of Bloodraven and some wildling women. At least I don't think he is Rhaegar.
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Here's some wild speculation about Mance's red silk cloak from Asshai: Mance Rayder's story about why he left the Night's Watch was not quite a literal account. Why? I don't know. Maybe he didn't trust Jon Snow or something. It's merely wild speculation at the moment.
And then there's this line: "You cannot fight the dead, Jon Snow. No man knows that half so well as me."
I think Mance was killed by the Others and resurrected by a red priestess, who gifted him a red silk cloak from Asshai. I don't know that Mance has undergone a full religious conversion; it seems more likely that he has been recruited as an ally of Light in the "War for the Dawn." He returns to the Watch where his appeals either fall on deaf ears or he is rejected for some reason related to his death and resurrection. So, Manced resolves to leave the Night's Watch and attempt to unite the Free Folk. From what we've seen with Beric, Lady Stoneheart, and a certain TV show character, being "chosen" for resurrection is a pretty darn effective way of attracting followers.
Has this idea been discussed before? It seems clear that most fans find Mance's origins to be a bit fishy, and where there's smoke there's fire, but the popular secret identity theories are all a bit too silly.
Interesting notion but I doubt it. I am pretty sure the quote refers to the constant hounding that the Others have been doing to the Wildlings for years. Also Mance doesn't really like Mel, one would think he'd be slightly more friendly if a Red Priest or Priestess had saved his life.
My current admittedly crackpot theory is that he is a descendant of Bloodraven and some wildling women. At least I don't think he is Rhaegar.
Didn't Gilly once describe Mance's baby as "Craster's grandson" to Sam? That seemed pretty fishy as well, though there are multiple ways to read that one.
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."
Interesting notion but I doubt it. I am pretty sure the quote refers to the constant hounding that the Others have been doing to the Wildlings for years. Also Mance doesn't really like Mel, one would think he'd be slightly more friendly if a Red Priest or Priestess had saved his life.
My current admittedly crackpot theory is that he is a descendant of Bloodraven and some wildling women. At least I don't think he is Rhaegar.
Didn't Gilly once describe Mance's baby as "Craster's grandson" to Sam? That seemed pretty fishy as well, though there are multiple ways to read that one.
She did. Still trying to figure out what it means...
Darkstar will be the next Vulture King.
Craster has 19 daughters and there are 19 castles on the Wall, coincidence I think not!
Interesting notion but I doubt it. I am pretty sure the quote refers to the constant hounding that the Others have been doing to the Wildlings for years. Also Mance doesn't really like Mel, one would think he'd be slightly more friendly if a Red Priest or Priestess had saved his life.
My current admittedly crackpot theory is that he is a descendant of Bloodraven and some wildling women. At least I don't think he is Rhaegar.
Didn't Gilly once describe Mance's baby as "Craster's grandson" to Sam? That seemed pretty fishy as well, though there are multiple ways to read that one.
Sam describes him that way...
Mance's son because that's what he is.
Craster's grandson because that's what they pretended he was when they left castle Black.
"grandson" really opens the door for speculation though... Why not just "son"? Grandson does apply since Gilly was his daughter, but then it could also be indicating that Dalla was actually one of Craster's daughters and Mance stole her(with Val at the same time?).
Just one of those lines with ambiguity sown into it by GRRM.
Dalla was actually one of Craster's daughters and Mance stole her(with Val at the same time?
Not to derail this thread or anything, but I have doubts that Dalla and Val actually are truly sisters, especially in light of Sam saying that Aemon is Craster's grandson. They're more sisters in the same sense that Jon and Sam are brothers, i.e through an organization.
• Val is described in plenty of detail. Dalla never is. So we have no idea if they even look alike. It's kinda a weird omission to tell us Val's hair, eyes, boobs, etc., but never once describe Dalla to us. We just assume they look alike on the basis that they're said to be sisters, but we never actually get any indication that they do, and certainly no one ever once says they actually look alike. And no one ever calls Dalla the beauty that they all call Val.
• Mance says that he met Dalla when he returned from Winterfell when he spied on Robert. He says he crossed the Wall at Long Barrow when he went to Winterfell, so if we assume he once again crossed at Long Barrow on his return, then he basically has to pass by Craster's to head back to his camp. So the opportunity is certainly there to meet Dalla at Craster's. On the other hand, Val and Jarl are a couple. We know that Jarl is a wildling chieftain, and therefore would've had his own village. We're never told where Jarl's is, but Jarl is very familiar with where Stonedoor and Greyguard are located on the Wall. Seems reasonable that he does most of his raiding over the Wall near those two castles then, and therefore has his base of operations near there, or at least did before he abandoned them to join Mance's camp. Stonedoor and Greyguard are on opposite sides of the Wall from Long Barrow though. If Mance met Dalla on his return from Long Barrow, then both she and Val, if they're truly sisters, should've been picked up there too. Yet Jarl operates out of the other end of the Wall. Which is then odd. Val would've either had to have met Jarl at Mance's camp, which seems unlikely given that there were 100,000 wildlings and Jarl is only a very lesser chieftain (only has 20 men), so kinda weird that she'd ever specifically meet him or pick him out when he's not noteworthy. Or she's from the same area that Jarl is, which is the opposite end of the Wall from where Mance found Dalla. Which is then again really weird.
• When Val leaves to go find Tormund, she returns in completely different garb. She claims all the garb was given to her by Dalla. It's all white clothes with a brooch depicting a weirwood. When she returns her eyes have also changed colour, having gone from grey when she left, to blue when she returned. GRRM has commented that this change in eye colour is not a mistake, it's intentional. So Val leaves, changes her outfit into something Dalla gave her, and her eyes change. Seems like Val did something magical, and many fans have interpreted her garb to be almost a priestly garb. Dalla herself talked about magic quite a bit, so Dalla also at least knows about magic. They both know magic, and if they were both priestesses of some kind, then you'd say that they were sisters to one another, no?
I mean yes, it's possible they're both just actually sisters, and that Mance stole both of them from Craster's. Or that Jarl also stole one of Craster's daughters. Or that Val escaped herself (as Mance seems to indicate it's Val who stole Jarl, not the other way around). But I don't truly believe they're genetic sisters. They're never described as looking alike, they seemingly come from opposite ends of the Wall, and they're both knowledgeable about magic and might've been old god priestesses of some kind, thereby making them "sisters". I'd be surprised if they're actually truly sisters and not just sisters in name, similar to how Jon and Sam are brothers.
But then again, all this does still rest on the point that we're assuming that GRRM just didn't make a mistake in AFFC, and that either Dalla or Mance has to be Craster's child to explain how Aemon Steelsong, their son, can be Craster's grandson.
Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!
Dalla was actually one of Craster's daughters and Mance stole her(with Val at the same time?
Not to derail this thread or anything, but I have doubts that Dalla and Val actually are truly sisters, especially in light of Sam saying that Aemon is Craster's grandson. They're more sisters in the same sense that Jon and Sam are brothers, i.e through an organization.
• Val is described in plenty of detail. Dalla never is. So we have no idea if they even look alike. It's kinda a weird omission to tell us Val's hair, eyes, boobs, etc., but never once describe Dalla to us. We just assume they look alike on the basis that they're said to be sisters, but we never actually get any indication that they do, and certainly no one ever once says they actually look alike. And no one ever calls Dalla the beauty that they all call Val.
• Mance says that he met Dalla when he returned from Winterfell when he spied on Robert. He says he crossed the Wall at Long Barrow when he went to Winterfell, so if we assume he once again crossed at Long Barrow on his return, then he basically has to pass by Craster's to head back to his camp. So the opportunity is certainly there to meet Dalla at Craster's. On the other hand, Val and Jarl are a couple. We know that Jarl is a wildling chieftain, and therefore would've had his own village. We're never told where Jarl's is, but Jarl is very familiar with where Stonedoor and Greyguard are located on the Wall. Seems reasonable that he does most of his raiding over the Wall near those two castles then, and therefore has his base of operations near there, or at least did before he abandoned them to join Mance's camp. Stonedoor and Greyguard are on opposite sides of the Wall from Long Barrow though. If Mance met Dalla on his return from Long Barrow, then both she and Val, if they're truly sisters, should've been picked up there too. Yet Jarl operates out of the other end of the Wall. Which is then odd. Val would've either had to have met Jarl at Mance's camp, which seems unlikely given that there were 100,000 wildlings and Jarl is only a very lesser chieftain (only has 20 men), so kinda weird that she'd ever specifically meet him or pick him out when he's not noteworthy. Or she's from the same area that Jarl is, which is the opposite end of the Wall from where Mance found Dalla. Which is then again really weird.
• When Val leaves to go find Tormund, she returns in completely different garb. She claims all the garb was given to her by Dalla. It's all white clothes with a brooch depicting a weirwood. When she returns her eyes have also changed colour, having gone from grey when she left, to blue when she returned. GRRM has commented that this change in eye colour is not a mistake, it's intentional. So Val leaves, changes her outfit into something Dalla gave her, and her eyes change. Seems like Val did something magical, and many fans have interpreted her garb to be almost a priestly garb. Dalla herself talked about magic quite a bit, so Dalla also at least knows about magic. They both know magic, and if they were both priestesses of some kind, then you'd say that they were sisters to one another, no?
I mean yes, it's possible they're both just actually sisters, and that Mance stole both of them from Craster's. Or that Jarl also stole one of Craster's daughters. Or that Val escaped herself (as Mance seems to indicate it's Val who stole Jarl, not the other way around). But I don't truly believe they're genetic sisters. They're never described as looking alike, they seemingly come from opposite ends of the Wall, and they're both knowledgeable about magic and might've been old god priestesses of some kind, thereby making them "sisters". I'd be surprised if they're actually truly sisters and not just sisters in name, similar to how Jon and Sam are brothers.
But then again, all this does still rest on the point that we're assuming that GRRM just didn't make a mistake in AFFC, and that either Dalla or Mance has to be Craster's child to explain how Aemon Steelsong, their son, can be Craster's grandson.
I regret not noticing this comment earlier. Great stuff; I definitely buy into the theories floating around that there is an order of wildling priestesses up North, and that one of these women was the bride of the Night's King.
ETA: For the OP, I considered proposing that either one of these priestesses or a CotF revived Mance, but I ended up going with a red priestess, who would be more likely to possess a red silk cloak from Asshai. Though maybe we can just as easily associate all Planetosi magic with Asshai.
Last Edit: Aug 11, 2016 4:26:49 GMT by Dornish Neck Tie: Edited to add
"No true knight would condone such wanton butchery." "True knights see worse every time they ride to war, wench," said Jaime. "And do worse, yes." Brienne turned the rudder toward the shore. "I'll leave no innocents to be food for crows." "A heartless wench. Crows need to eat as well. Stay to the river and leave the dead alone, woman."